HG and Robotech Debates

[MEMO1DOMINION]

BRI

Why would BW want to have that text changed? It doesn't affect them in the slightest.

HMMM.. I WOULD THINK THEY NEED TO CHANGE THIS ORDER.

SO IF BW DECIDES TO GO TO COURT, THEY WONT COME IN WITH A DECISION FROM JAPAN. THEY WOULD HAVE TO PROVE OTHERWISE WHAT HG AND TATSU HAVE. IT WOULD BE A LONG BATTLE.

[Bri]

Did HG and FASA have their legal tango before or after FASA's legal tango with Playmates?

Timeline: http://terrania.us/hg-fasa/

[RedWolf]

BRI

HMMM.. I WOULD THINK THEY NEED TO CHANGE THIS ORDER.

SO IF BW DECIDES TO GO TO COURT, THEY WONT COME IN WITH A DECISION FROM JAPAN. THEY WOULD HAVE TO PROVE OTHERWISE WHAT HG AND TATSU HAVE. IT WOULD BE A LONG BATTLE.

You didn't read what I wrote did you?

[Bri]

BRI

HMMM.. I WOULD THINK THEY NEED TO CHANGE THIS ORDER.

SO IF BW DECIDES TO GO TO COURT, THEY WONT COME IN WITH A DECISION FROM JAPAN. THEY WOULD HAVE TO PROVE OTHERWISE WHAT HG AND TATSU HAVE. IT WOULD BE A LONG BATTLE.

They will use a Japanese ruling, a Japanese decision on copyrights is perfectly valid in US courts as both the US and Japan are part of the Berne convention.

edited for clarity.

Edited December 11, 2009 by Bri

[MEMO1DOMINION]

Bri

They will, a Japanese decission on copyrights is perfectly valid in US courts as both the US and Japan are part of the Berne convention.

YOU HAVE ONE THING IN ONE PLACE. AND ANOTHER THING IN ANOTHER PLACE.

YUP. BW WOULD HAVE TO GO TO A U.S. COURT.

[Funkenstein]

Bri

YOU HAVE ONE THING IN ONE PLACE. AND ANOTHER THING IN ANOTHER PLACE.

YUP. BW WOULD HAVE TO GO TO A U.S. COURT.

They don't have to go to the US courts. All they need to do is go to WIPO. World.Intellectual.Property.Organization.

[Seto Kaiba]

That's all this document is about.

Yeah, but MEMO sure as hell won't acknowledge that... just like the last three or four times, he's latched onto something completely irrelevant and is loudly proclaiming it to be the smoking gun. He doesn't know a goddamn thing about the law or legal process, but he's determined to bullshit his way through.

Seto, stop before you blow that vein. It ain't worth it.

Starting to understand why we have issues with MEMO yet?

ALL I KNOW IF ONE GOES AGAINST A JUDGES ORDER, YOU IN A WORLD OF HURT.

THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY TO CHANGE THAT IS BY GOING TO COURT.

Yes, going against a court order can get you in a world of hurt, but that court document you're trying to claim proves something doesn't prove dick. The ONLY thing that document establishes is the rationale behind the judge denying FASA's motion for summary judgment. That's all. Nothing else. It is NOT a ruling on the case itself. There's no need to go to court to change it, because the case was settled out of court, there is no ruling. Trying to change the content of that document would have as much effect as going to court to change the content of the cafeteria lunch menu from the week that document was docketed. It has no bearing on the actual case or the rights it concerned whatsoever. It is IRRELEVANT.

HMMM.. I WOULD THINK THEY NEED TO CHANGE THIS ORDER.

See the above... there is no need to "change the order" because the document establishes NOTHING. It is NOT a ruling on anything. It's just the court's announcement that they're denying FASA's motion for summary judgment. It proves nothing, and that you continue to belabor the point as though it was somehow relevant just proves that you still haven't even bothered to read the effing document.

SO IF BW DECIDES TO GO TO COURT, THEY WONT COME IN WITH A DECISION FROM JAPAN. THEY WOULD HAVE TO PROVE OTHERWISE WHAT HG AND TATSU HAVE. IT WOULD BE A LONG BATTLE.

No, the decision from Japan is perfectly valid because it's a judgment on copyright ownership, and is thus enforceable under a number of international treaties including the Berne Convention. Pay attention for once.

YOU HAVE ONE THING IN ONE PLACE. AND ANOTHER THING IN ANOTHER PLACE.

YUP. BW WOULD HAVE TO GO TO A U.S. COURT.

This was a completely and totally incorrect statement made out of ignorance the first time you tried to claim it... and repeating it has not made it any less wrong.

Under international treaties including the Berne Convention, the rulings on the ownership of the Macross copyrights made in Japan are applicable in 164 countries worldwide, including the United States. That fact WILL NOT CHANGE. They don't NEED to have a second case in the US over it, because copyrights are protected worldwide under international treaties... it's called international copyright law MEMO.

Before I wrap this up, a piece of friendly advice for you MEMO. If you don't understand the subject matter (and it's painfully obvious you don't), it's unwise to attempt to bluff your way through when you're talking to someone who does.

Edited December 11, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[Seto Kaiba]

So long as we have MEMO as a captive audience, I have a question for him.

Hey MEMO, since you came out and endorsed Doug Bendo's podcast a while back, does this mean you support his position of "DEATH TO MACROSS PURISTS"? I'm also curious to know where you stand on his accusations that all Macross Frontier fans are pedophiles and child pornographers. You were actively endorsing him on RobotechX, so that means you're supporting his views, right? You MUST support it, since you've allowed belligerent users on Robotech.com to keep "DEATH TO MACROSS PURISTS" in their signatures. So tell us MEMO, do you support this?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Edited December 11, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[hulagu]

Under international treaties including the Berne Convention, the rulings on the ownership of the Macross copyrights made in Japan are applicable in 164 countries worldwide, including the United States. That fact WILL NOT CHANGE. They don't NEED to have a second case in the US over it, because copyrights are protected worldwide under international treaties... it's called international copyright law MEMO.

They will need to contest the Macross and UN Spacy trademarks, won't they? It was kind of a dick move registering those two trademarks, seeing how they've primarily branded their stuff as Robotech, Robotech the First Generation, and REF before, and Macross Island (as opposed to the Macross) doesn't have much to do with the original saga.

And UN Spacy is just a fictional military service of the UN like Space Marines.

Edited December 11, 2009 by hulagu

[Seto Kaiba]

They will need to contest the Macross and UN Spacy trademarks, won't they? It was kind of a dick move registering those two trademarks, seeing how they've primarily branded their stuff as Robotech, Robotech the First Generation, and REF before, and Macross City doesn't have much to do with the original saga.

And UN Spacy is just a fictional military service of the UN like Space Marines.

Yes, in order for Big West to license the rest of Macross for distribution in the US and abroad, they'd have to deal with those pesky trademarks or work out some kind of deal with Harmony Gold. Naturally, Harmony Gold is probably hoping for the latter.

It was quite a dick move, since it was done during or shortly after the whole legal brouhaha, and smart money says it was done for the express purpose of keeping Macross out of the US.

[Robelwell202]

So long as we have MEMO as a captive audience, I have a question for him.

Hey MEMO, since you came out and endorsed Doug Bendo's podcast a while back, does this mean you support his position of "DEATH TO MACROSS PURISTS"? I'm also curious to know where you stand on his accusations that all Macross Frontier fans are pedophiles and child pornographers. You were actively endorsing him on RobotechX, so that means you're supporting his views, right? You MUST support it, since you've allowed belligerent users on Robotech.com to keep "DEATH TO MACROSS PURISTS" in their signatures. So tell us MEMO, do you support this?

Inquiring minds want to know.

You really expect an answer? MEMO's just gonna blow it off, like all the otehr times he's been called out on it. He acts with impunity, and no one's going to change it.

If MEMO had an ounce of guts, he'd answer, but he doesn't, so don't hold your breath.

[Bri]

The UN Spacy trademark in the US is an elusive one, I have talked with theLoneWolf about it in April but we couldn't confirm it's existence. Though it has been mentioned in older versions of this thread. The only UN Spacy trademark I'm aware of is the one in Europe and owned by some gaming company from Tokyo.

[Einherjar]

They will need to contest the Macross and UN Spacy trademarks, won't they? It was kind of a dick move registering those two trademarks, seeing how they've primarily branded their stuff as Robotech, Robotech the First Generation, and REF before, and Macross Island (as opposed to the Macross) doesn't have much to do with the original saga.

And UN Spacy is just a fictional military service of the UN like Space Marines.

It sounds like wasteful spending to me. HG went through all that trouble to keep the word "Macross" and the iconic ship under their control. As for the UN Spacy, it was for that kite insignia representing the first generation of the RDF which got replaced two times anyway. But since they're not able to do any kind of production for the franchise at the moment, what can they do with it?

Sell useless crap:

http://www.robotech.com/store/viewcategory.php?id=7

http://www.robotech.com/store/viewcategory.php?id=10

You know those high prices they're asking for? That's mostly for the trademarked symbols.

Edited December 11, 2009 by Einherjar

[MastaEgg]

I love how they trademarked "Shadow Rising" but they have to keep asking for extensions to keep it

[TheLoneWolf]

The UN Spacy trademark in the US is an elusive one, I have talked with theLoneWolf about it in April but we couldn't confirm it's existence. Though it has been mentioned in older versions of this thread. The only UN Spacy trademark I'm aware of is the one in Europe and owned by some gaming company from Tokyo.

To the best of my knowledge, no design trademark has been filed in the USA for the UN Spacy "flying kite." I examined the most appropriate design codes and nothing turned up. It's possible that it could've been filed with an inappropriate design code, but I doubt that. I've never seen Harmony Gold market the "flying kite" in a way that would indicate to me that it's a design trademark.

[Wanzerfan]

ROBOTECH FAN DEFINITION BY A MACROSS FAN

(INSERT SETO'S COLLECTION OF WORDS TO USER NAME HERE)

MACROSS FAN DEFINITION BY A ROBOTECH FAN

MACROSS PURIST (REGARDLESS USER NAME)

AND THEN THE REGULAR ROBOTECH/MACROSS FAN

DON'T GET INVOLVED MUCH PAST A PURIST ON BOTH SIDES

SIMPLE, I GUESS ONE WORD DEFINES IT ALL

Man, you must've studeid under Rapheal, because your artistry with bullshit is impressive.

[Moly_Sigang]

Looks like MEMO is gone but oh well. So let me get this clear, from the 80's up until in 2002, Tatsunoko assumed that they had more rights to Macross than just the international merchandising and distribution rights? Isn't that the reason why Tatsunoko appealed to the Japanese court in 2004(?) since they wanted to seize control of the macross franchise. But that appeal was turned down.

[azrael]

Looks like MEMO is gone but oh well. So let me get this clear, from the 80's up until in 2002, Tatsunoko assumed that they had more rights to Macross than just the international merchandising and distribution rights?

I guess that's one way to look at it. But even that's not correct and here's why. Big West went around with the Macross copyright with MII, M+ and M7 (and MD7) so why didn't Tatsunoko step in back then. So that's why it doesn't appear correct to say "Tatsunoko thought they had more...". If they did, they would have stepped up back then.

Isn't that the reason why Tatsunoko appealed to the Japanese court in 2004(?) since they wanted to seize control of the macross franchise. But that appeal was turned down.

When Tatsunoko challenged Bandai (with Big West as Bandai's supporter), they were in essence, trying to control the distribution of the "Macross-franchise". In that case, the court ruled that since their company had zero participation in those later works, they were not entitled to any royalties and the court dismissed the suit (simply, no work, no money). The court also said Bandai never infringed on their distribution rights to SDFM. I have the untranslated court brief (alternatively, our scoopda masta kresphy found it in his post here).

[D.D. Ivanov]

...Didn't I see the member info bar saying dougbendo was typing his post a while ago?

[Freiflug88]

Same here at 11:59.

[Macross007]

So MEMO lost face yet AGAIN as I can see.

[Jasonc]

The mess and confusion Memo has, seems to be the interchanging of court rulings. HG vs Fasa seems to somehow been mixed in with the IP issues, and summaries of motions that aren't court rulings are being used to put up an argument in favor of the issue with IP rights. Even if Fasa did try to take HG to court, that's only, ONLY dealing with merchandise. It seems trying to stretch one settlement between a game company and HG, then trying to add it to BW/SN vs. Tatsunoko is the surefire way to keep getting this easy stuff to figure out, so damn complicated.

Also, what is the question that keeps popping up regarding the possibility of overturning the decisions? If curious, fine, but what bearing does it have on what is here and now? There hasn't been anything of recent that has been overturned, and no one has changed, or decided on since what 04?

Honestly, I don't know why this issue is even still an issue. I know RT fans want to make HG the pioneer for everything and put them at the top of the world, but trying to pull diamonds from the sky on this is only setting up the fans for disappointment, not to mention, the misinformation pissing off RT and Macross fans, and throwing the credibility out the window. The fact that there are so many questions being asked shows that you didn't understand the history and final outcomes to begin with, yet Memo, you still spoke on it, and even banned people based on what you interpreted. On that, it throws those bannings based on this issue into question. So, now I have to ask, since those people were banned for supposed fan speculation, being "subversive", and being "misguided", were probably banned under something that the mods didn't even understand, wouldn't this be considered misleading and abusive on your parts? Tell me if I'm completely wrong, but if so, how do you explain the not understanding the issues, but still writing that you do?

[Einherjar]

Honestly, I don't know why this issue is even still an issue. I know RT fans want to make HG the pioneer for everything and put them at the top of the world, but trying to pull diamonds from the sky on this is only setting up the fans for disappointment, not to mention, the misinformation pissing off RT and Macross fans, and throwing the credibility out the window. The fact that there are so many questions being asked shows that you didn't understand the history and final outcomes to begin with, yet Memo, you still spoke on it, and even banned people based on what you interpreted. On that, it throws those bannings based on this issue into question. So, now I have to ask, since those people were banned for supposed fan speculation, being "subversive", and being "misguided", were probably banned under something that the mods didn't even understand, wouldn't this be considered misleading and abusive on your parts? Tell me if I'm completely wrong, but if so, how do you explain the not understanding the issues, but still writing that you do?

That's something J T talked about on his show, and I'm starting to agree with it. What he and others do on a daily basis IS dangerous on a lot of levels for everyone.

[dougbendo]

Seto and viper how imagine I find you here!!!!!!!

First off seto memo only endorse robotech 00 NOT robotech fan. Second you said it was ok for a MINOR to be naked in a sifi show because is came from japan?! I never said it was all macross fan that are like that seto. Its just that you say your the most important macross export of all and it ok to have minors just fine to have minors in the nude just for the sake of it. Why do I have a problem with that there...hmmm, lets see. It could be because it is illegal in this country to do that seto. Having minors in the nude for purpose of entertainment (witch is what happen in macross ft) is illegal in the USA. No and, if or buts about it seto and viper. I don't care what the law is in japan. We ALL 3 live in the US and that poo doesn't go on here.

But you know I find it is funny that we are talking about that is legal and not legal here because last week when seto and viper after loosing a debate on this issue on a live show of mine for hundreds of people to lesson to; got pissed when behind my back and tried to get my pod cast canceled by talkshoe. So what happened then? Well after I informed talkshoe on the issue of what told them to lesson the the podcast "of how old is she", gave them the pics and some of the forum talk on robotechx.com Tell us seto and viper what was the conclusion they came too? Thats right they said to banned you asses because the side you took was simply illegal. Now what I find so funny is that you tried to get me band and you go bannned instead, lol.

Now the whole "death to macross purist!" I never said that seto. I hate to break this to you seto but you bring it on your self. You simply have an un-healthy obsession with trying to debunk robotech every chance you get. But it hasn't worked. Infact the only person who keeps on getting debunked is you. lets just go with the quote death to macross purist. Tell me seto what do you think that person means. For one I am shock that you would claim it was me who said it because it was on JT show and you give him all his talking notes. But do your really think a person who is saying death to macross purist is really saying they want you to die. Not so much. Its the crazy act that you people take that make you macross purist that robotech fans are simply tired of and want to go away. So do I have a problem with what the person is saying .... No! Its about time that robotech fans did start standing up to you and saying what they feel they need to say.

For example the masters vs uns trend we had going. You couldn't proves poo about anything. All you could do is give the long winded exhalations about macross continuity and then try to plug it into the robotech world. Everytime you said something I was able to prove something from the animation that said other wise. I was ever able to show you frames. Yet you still tried to gave us all a total line of bs. At the viper held up the white flag. Another example you trying to tell us all that the sdf was 1210 meters in length! But there was not one moment you could find in robotech that backed up your claim. Just like the little girl you said "well the creater said it was 1210 meter". Just like "the creater said she was 16 and she said in post spacewar 1 16 is of legal age". You know the fact that you tryed to tell me seto that legal age in macross in post spacewar one is 16year shows you know it is wrong but you just don't want to admit to it because its macross.

Personally I could care less what any of you here think of me. I read the stuff on here about me and "I have to say it makes for good reading"! But the fact is seto you and viper are no where near the kind of mean you claim your selves to be. Allow keep one thing in mind seto when you speak my name. You ran from me when you ran out of talking points and after you got caught trying to get me banned from talk shoe. Don't try to denie it because memo and everyone else was there. Just because I'm in your MW now doesn't mean Ill be any lesson of the robotech fan I am at any other time.

[D.D. Ivanov]

The Google Translate Dougbendo page isn't working for me right now. Can someone help me out?

[Beltane70]

Could you translate that into English please?

[Gubaba]

Seto and viper how imagine I find you here!!!!!!!

Yes, Seto has enslaved all of us and forced us to carry out nameless and eldritch tasks in his unholy name.

I have to wonder...are the RT forums so dull that the mainstays are now compelled to come here...?

[Einherjar]

<snip>

Not worth it.

[Macross007]

Could you translate that into English please?

How can you translate a language that does not exist on Earth sir (the language in question being robocrap lunatician) ?

Edited December 11, 2009 by Macross007

[VFTF1]

Doug Bendo:

Having minors in the nude for purpose of entertainment (witch is what happen in macross ft) is illegal in the USA. No and, if or buts about it seto and viper. I don't care what the law is in japan. We ALL 3 live in the US and that poo doesn't go on here.

News flash:

1) None of the characters in Macross Frontier legally qualify as "minors" under US law because they are not human beings, but rather - cartoon characters.

2) Having minors in the nude for purposes of entertainment is not illegal in the USA anyways - there are plenty of movies where children are shown in the nude. And movies are arguably "for entertainment. It IS illegal to use minors in sexually explicit, pornographic material.

3) "Nude" is not the same as "Pornography."

4) It is not illegal for Americans to watch a cartoon showing characters who are - within the work of fiction labeled as "under age" and appear naked in that fiction, so long as that nudity is not pornographic in nature.

5)No court has ever ruled that the material in Macross Frontier qualifies as pornography.

6) Even IF a court in the USA ever ruled material from Macross Frontier as pornographic it could NOT rule it as "child pornography" because THERE ARE NO HUMAN BEINGS IN A CARTOON. The only place there is child pornography is when there are children.

7) Many works of art show naked children. There are numerous frescos in Churches picturing naked people and naked children and naked little girls. These are not pornography

I do not agree that the nude scenes in Macross Frontier are pornography simply because Ranka is shown naked. That would be like saying that doctors who deliver babies practice pornography because they deal with women who open their legs and pull naked people out of them.

9) As the Supreme Court case with Larry Flint showed, pornography is legal in the United States anyways and protected under free speech laws. CHILD pornography is indeed illegal, just like all forms of child exploitation. Macross Frontier is a cartoon and therefore features no children at all.

Doug Bendo:

I informed talkshoe on the issue of what told them to lesson the the podcast "of how old is she", gave them the pics and some of the forum talk on robotechx.com Tell us seto and viper what was the conclusion they came too? Thats right they said to banned you asses because the side you took was simply illegal.

It means nothing that Talkshoe thinks the side they took "was simply illegal."

Talkshoe is not a court of law.

Talkshoe DOES have the right to ban people for whatever reason they want of course.

But - the fact is - you are wrong. "Ranka Lee" is NOT 14 or 18 or 29 or 50. She does NOT EXIST. She is a cartoon character. Cartoon characters are not human beings and are not protected by law. You cannot allege child pornography when dealing with cartoon characters. You CAN allege pornography - yes - but not child pornography.

But if those are Talkshoe's reasons - fine. That is their right. It's their website.

Doug Bendo:

I hate to break this to you seto but you bring it on your self. You simply have an un-healthy obsession with trying to debunk robotech every chance you get. But it hasn't worked. Infact the only person who keeps on getting debunked is you.

There are three seperate issues here Doug:

1) The "Fan War" between Seto and you guys

2) The disagreement over the legal status of Macross in the USA

3) The question of the Macross anime vs. the Robotech anime from a strictly literary, artistic, story point of view (aka - which one is better?)

You and Memo and Robotech.com DO make MILLIONS of arguments in subjects 1 and 2.

I have NEVER seen any arguments (except the Top 10 list from Toplessrobot) where Robotech fans actually try to take up subject 3 - the issue of which show is better.

Personally - I think this third issue is the most important one.

Seto mainly seems to be pre-occupied with debunking your theories about the legal debate and proving that robotech.com & Co. are poorly administered and unjustly moderated.

When Seto discusses the Robotech shows or novels, he seems fair minded and I've never seen him try to "debunk" anything - because what is there to debunk?

Everybody acnkowledges that in 1984, it was a good idea to bring these anime over, that there was no other way to do it, that it didn't work out, and that people who remember the show have fond memories of it, and people who read some of the novels or played the RPG from Palladium have nice memories of it too.

But now - when they can watch the original, lots of people don't have any use for Robotech and are sometimes upset that the legal problems mean they can't walk into a video store and rent MF etc.

That's all there is to it.

Doug Bendo:

But do your really think a person who is saying death to macross purist is really saying they want you to die. Not so much. Its the crazy act that you people take that make you macross purist that robotech fans are simply tired of and want to go away.

That's not true.

How do I know?

Because you and Memo are here.

Seto "went away."

You guys banned him from Robotech.com, then he gets banned from Talkshoe - you ban him from everywhere you hang out and have the power to do it.

So?

He "went away."

Why did you follow him?

Because you realized that banning him is not going to silence him and people will still read him and by banning him you made it impossible for YOUR SIDE of the argument to be heard next to HIS?

And therefore you have to come HERE and argue with him as damage control so fans can get both sides of the debate?

Great.

So - what? You want Seto to just stop writing on the internet and stop posting his opinions?

Wouldn't it be a better idea to do what you are doing now - namely just argue with him and write in the same website and debate with him?

See - you banned him, but people still read him - and now you find that you have to come here to debunk him. It would have been healthies and better for you if you didn't ban him and let him post all this stuff at Robotech.com and just continued to counter-argue with him there.

It would have increased your sites' traffic and showed that you don't fear healthy debate.

Unless you really are naive enough to think that Seto will just "go away" - litterally. Like dissapear from the internet? That's crazy.

I don't think Doug Bendo and Memo will go away - and I don't want them too. It's fun to disagree and debate.

It's not fun to ban people who disagree with you. It's not nice. And it actually hurts YOUR cause more than it hurts Seto.

Doug Bendo:

Personally I could care less what any of you here think of me.

Just like I apologized to Memo if he felt offended for making fun of him - I'll apologize to you. And I will say this:

Thank you for posting here. Thank you for being willing to debate these issues openly and thank you for not just banning Seto and his friends and isolating yourself in your own corner of the web and pretending opposite opinions don't exist.

The fact that you're here speaks well of you.

Pete

[Jasonc]

Now the whole "death to macross purist!" I never said that seto. I hate to break this to you seto but you bring it on your self. You simply have an un-healthy obsession with trying to debunk robotech every chance you get. But it hasn't worked. Infact the only person who keeps on getting debunked is you. lets just go with the quote death to macross purist. Tell me seto what do you think that person means. For one I am shock that you would claim it was me who said it because it was on JT show and you give him all his talking notes. But do your really think a person who is saying death to macross purist is really saying they want you to die. Not so much. Its the crazy act that you people take that make you macross purist that robotech fans are simply tired of and want to go away. So do I have a problem with what the person is saying .... No! Its about time that robotech fans did start standing up to you and saying what they feel they need to say.

How did JT get involved in this? I doubt JT giving props to Seto would translate to Seto giving him his show notes. That seems to be more of a beef, or better, a jealous streak, you have with someone who actually has a great show. Speaking on the part of the "Death to Macross Purists" line, don't know if it was you who said it as well as the one JT pointed out, but what you are suggesting that guy was saying is opinion. Now, I will "lesson you here" for a moment. The problem in your argument above, and what seems to be your flaw, is that you interpret everything so that it only fits your opinion. For the example above, the statement "death to Macross purists" is interpreted as just frustration. Yet, on the rt.com TOU, whether direct or interpreted, the statement still goes against those said TOU. The problem, again, is that you interpret it to fit your argument. The same thing with the Ranka age debate. you go against all facts and data of her age, and only use something that works to fit in your argument.

I'm not gonna get into the Ranka/pedophile issue, because to me, the show is art, and anyone who thinks pedophile, from what I would gather, is one who battles with those very same issues. What one sees as art in an artistic part of a story, you see a naked girl/pedophile. That's all I'm gonna say on that, because there's not much more that needs to be said than that. As for the argument you have with Seto, that's between you and him, and I'm just gonna point out the misguided statements that are there for now.

Glad I was able to understand the post enough.

[Gubaba]

Glad I was able to understand the post enough.

You made more out of it than I did.

Actually, I've got TONS of new respect for Pete, for being able to decipher not only Memo, but Doug as well. And on the SAME DAY, no less.

[Valkyrie22]

This is the last time I sit around unable to sleep, bored, and try to read some 4 pages of new posts of this thread on my bleeping iPod Touch browser. Owee my eyes, owee my head!

Anyway, *waves* to Jasonc.

Healthy debates! Keep 'em coming!

[VFTF1]

Arguing with Doug Bendo, Part II

Because THIS paragraph deserves a seperate reply:

For example the masters vs uns trend we had going. You couldn't proves poo about anything. All you could do is give the long winded exhalations about macross continuity and then try to plug it into the robotech world. Everytime you said something I was able to prove something from the animation that said other wise. I was ever able to show you frames. Yet you still tried to gave us all a total line of bs. At the viper held up the white flag. Another example you trying to tell us all that the sdf was 1210 meters in length! But there was not one moment you could find in robotech that backed up your claim. Just like the little girl you said "well the creater said it was 1210 meter". Just like "the creater said she was 16 and she said in post spacewar 1 16 is of legal age". You know the fact that you tryed to tell me seto that legal age in macross in post spacewar one is 16year shows you know it is wrong but you just don't want to admit to it because its macross.

Let's go step by step here Doug.

1. Doug says:

For example the masters vs uns trend we had going. You couldn't proves poo about anything. All you could do is give the long winded exhalations about macross continuity and then try to plug it into the robotech world. Everytime you said something I was able to prove something from the animation that said other wise. I was ever able to show you frames.

This sounds interesting. What exactly was the issue here?

In any event, it sounds kind of pointless to argue against Robotech using Macross because they are two different things. The only thing that makes sense is using Macross comparatively to say that the original version makes MORE SENSE than the changed version that became part of the Robotech trilogy.

Having said that, Robotech fans need to be careful when they try to "prove" things based on "the animation" because remember - ALL OF THIS ANIMATION WAS MADE FOR A STORY CALLED "MACROSS," A STORY CALLED "MOSPEDIA" AND A STORY CALLED "SOUTHERN CROSS."

Therefore - the animation - what we SEE is all supposed to tell a story that is NOT Robotech.

It's kind of like if I took a page ouf of a Spiderman comic book, where Spiderman is swinging on his web and Stan Lee has the following text in the thought bubble:

"I sure do like Mary Jane...I really love her..."

And I went ahead and published the page but change the text to:

"Man, my ass really itches!! I can't wait to get out of this costume and scratch it!!"

And then I argued that "based on the animation - we can see the pain from Spiderman's ass-itch in the way he was drawn - look - it's clear that while swinging in NYC on his web - his ass itches. The animation shows it - and if you're in doubt - the text backs up what is shown in the animation.

POINT:

Dialogue has a lot to do with how we interpret pictures.

But the pictures in Robotech came BEFORE the dialogue.

And the pictures were NEVER meant to illustrate the story of Robotech.

So using "the animation" to prove a point in Robotech is not that straight forward.

Doug says:

Another example you trying to tell us all that the sdf was 1210 meters in length! But there was not one moment you could find in robotech that backed up your claim.

Um..maybe he was just talking about the SDF-1 in Macross? I agree - in Robotech, it can be a million miles. The animation is not going to tell us anything for the reasons I stated above because the animation is not animation for the Robotech story. It illustrates the Macross story. The Robotech story is super imposed on it.

Therefore - in Robotech - the SDF-1 can be however long Harmony Gold says it is.

Who cares?

Just like the little girl you said "well the creater said it was 1210 meter". Just like "the creater said she was 16 and she said in post spacewar 1 16 is of legal age". You know the fact that you tryed to tell me seto that legal age in macross in post spacewar one is 16year shows you know it is wrong but you just don't want to admit to it because its macross

Nobody knows what the legal age in the Macross story was because it was never mentioned and it doesn't matter anyways. Most people interpret that since it was made in Japan, where the legal age is X, then the legal age in Macross is X, but it's not a big deal anyways.

Kawamorii might have said that Ranka was 16. I don't remember him ever saying "the legal age in the Macross universe is 16." It was never an issue in the stories.

I don't understand what you're complaining about here? I do understand your opinion that the legal age for real living children in the real world is different in the USA and in Japan. But I have already pointed out that there are no real living human children in Macross and therefore the law is not applicable.

I doubt Seto was saying that there is a cannonical legal age in the original Macross story. He was probably saying that the legal age in Japan is X, the creator says Ranka's age is X, and therefore for the Japanese she's a young girl at the legal age.

THAT said -

Where in Macross Frontier does Ranka have sex?

Where in SDF Macross does Minmey have sex?

Where do ANY of the "young" characters in ANY Macross show have sex?

In explicit sexual publications in Japan? Yes. In the ANIME? NO.

So - this is a non-issue. They are never shown having sex anyways - so who cares what their "legal age" is?

Even if Ranka were said to be 8 years old - who cares? Is she shown having sex? No.

Now - you MIGHT be making the argument that the artistic style over-sexualizes the female characters. That is a legitamite argument to bring up. But please bring it up. It is an opinion held by many anime and Macross fans about Macross Frontier AND about general anime trends in the world.

Open Disclosure: I personally do not hold this opinion and I favor the sexualization of characters because I think hot sexy girls are fun and good.

But I'm open to people disagreeing, and I certainly DO agree that it's bad for the story when fan service overshadows plot.

But I DON'T agree that the erotic elements of Macross Frontier diminish its' plot.

Also - watch episode 4 of Macross Frontier. The anime makes fun of over-sexualization in anime in that episode by confronting Ranka Lee with big boobed models at the Miss Macross contest. So the anime is actually SELF-AWARE about the problem of fan service and the debate about its' place in anime.

Again - I don't really understand what you're getting at?

Pete

Edited December 11, 2009 by VFTF1

[Gubaba]

This sounds interesting. What exactly was the issue here?

Doug said that the Robotech Masters could beat anyone, and challenged Seto and Viper (aka Robelwell202) to have a match-up, Masters vs. U.N. Spacy - any era. Seto and Viper pulled out stats from Macros Chronicle and other places, and gauged the Master's power based on the RT.com infopedia. Doug used screenshots and dialogue to show things like the Masters blowing stuff up, and Chlore's group ripping into the Macross 7 fleet.

(I suggested that Basara just sing at the Masters, and it would all be over in a matter of minutes.)

Anyway, it pretty much devolved into name-calling, and mutual cries of "You haven't proved ANYTHING!" and kind of fell apart.

And then Doug claimed victory, because (he said) Seto and Viper realized they couldn't win.

Which is kinda true...but only because neither side could agree on what the respective fleets' capabilities actually were.

Edited December 11, 2009 by Gubaba