HG and Robotech Debates

[Funkenstein]

Don't they actually try to improve their products and have good customer service to deal with it? They've never had to order an international recall for one toy and make a spectacle of it, right?

I don't really know much about Yamato, but I assume they care.

Wait, did Toynami ever recall any of their Robotech toys?

[Lolicon]

The last two are...going a little far, don't you think? I'd settle for them being laughed at for being silly.

If I found a genie in a lamp and was granted three wishes, I'd wish for the following:

1. The elimination of Robotech, Harmony Gold, and Toynami from our timeline.

2. A three-way with May'n and Megumi.

3. A unicorn.

[VFTF1]

3. A unicorn.

I have one of those I can sell you for 50 bucks + shipping. All the parts are sealed. Version KA

Personally, I prefer the titanium version.

Also, I am happily awaiting the HGUC with hopes that its' knees can bend more properly than the transformable MG.

But why would you need a genie to get a Unicorn?

Pete

[VFTF1]

Wait, did Toynami ever recall any of their Robotech toys?

Yes.

IIRC, BBTS had the Shadow Alpha fighter or some such as being recalled.

Pete

[Einherjar]

Yes.

IIRC, BBTS had the Shadow Alpha fighter or some such as being recalled.

Pete

Not just BBTS, robotech.com too.

http://www.robotech.com/news/viewarticle.php?id=383

A better quality toy was supposed to be sold sometime in 2009, but not much has happened with it.

[Penguin]

Like - I want to know why people actually think that Robotech is a better series than the original Macross?

For some unfathomable reason, I've been mildly obsessing over this since Pete first asked the question (and oft repeated), trying to pin down what I like about Robotech that Macross doesn't provide. I write mildly obsessed since my Robotech fandom is like a muscle that's deteriorated from lack of use. I have to admit, what follows isn't really why I think Robotech is better than Macross, 'cause I don't, but it is at least a mildly thoughtful if not compelling reason beyond "misty childhood memory" of why I still think fondly of Robotech.

First, I have to begin with the caveat that it was the McKinney novels that form most of my opinion of Robotech. The animation went off the air here shortly after Ben's death, so all it really did was set up my future Macross addiction . I started reading the novels partly from curiousity and partly because half of "Jack McKinney" was Brian Daley, and I've always loved his Han Solo novels.

One thing I really like is science fiction with a greater continuity, showing how society changes from the events in the story (Babylon 5, new Battlestar Galactica, etc.). For me, at least, the Robotech novels were an entertaining read that provided that kind of sweeping arc. It was later that I would see just how much Daley and Luceno had expanded beyond the source material to create such a complete picture (aside from obvious things like Alphas being mentioned in Southern Cross, or the old guys with the ship in Invid Invasion having been Southern Cross troopers). I ended up viewing the animation as presenting highlights from a more complete story.

This is an aspect of my overall science fiction enjoyment that Macross doesn't fulfill for me. The various Macross productions leave a lot of intervening events and societal changes to a meta-story that has to be more inferred than it is explored. This isn't a criticism, since I don't believe in knocking a story for not being what it's not trying to be, and Kawamori and Co. don't seem interested in exploring that aspect of the Macross universe. To me, it's more of a missed opportunity. Whenever I read the complete timeline I wonder about things like the "Delta War" or giant Zentraedi being banished from Earth, the events around them, and the consequences. The sequels themselves, so far, are kinda "bottle shows" in that, aside from the evolution of the VF, the sequels don't explore a lot of fallout from the previous series. Frontier visited a lot of the previous productions, but most of it (IMHO) is more homage than exploration of the consequence of past events. Each story introduces something brand new (rogue AI, Protodeviln, Vajra), whose story is wrapped up by the end. Really, we get more of an evolving story of the Protoculture than we do of humanity.

Again, this isn't intended as a criticism of Macross. The way the galaxy has been constructed, with colonies and fleets spread all over the place, it's perfectly plausible that what happens to one of them doesn't ripple much throughout the rest of the galaxy, except that VFs get updated. However, it is, for me, a story style I enjoy that the Robotech Saga provides for me and Macross does not.

[VFTF1]

Thank you.

And it's hard to argue with that premise - I still remember being a little kid and stumbling on the Zendradi Rebellion in a bookstore. I read it on the floor (my mom used to deposit me in bookstores while doing her own errands because I'd usually find something to read and sit there for hours reading)... Anyways - back then, little 8 or 7 or 9 or whatever I was old me found it all so very compelling - particularly the opening with the romantic scene between Rick and Lisa. I remember thinking "wow! Giant Transforming robots AND a guy kissing a girl! The shock!" I mean...Transformers usually gave us pretty generic human characters running around. The Transformers themselves were more developed as characters than the people around them...

But that's neither here nor there - the point was - I did like that. And yes, I do appreciate that the novels have this huge arc going... Although by the time Planet Killers rolled around the Arc had become somewhat of a hinderence in my view because despite the changing landscape in terms of human society, politics etc...one thing never changed: Rick Hunter and Lisa Hayes and their endless quest to do-good, kiss, and call eachother pussy cat.

And to me - that's one of the biggest failings of Robotech. It not only terminates lots of the momentum, sensuality and intelligence of the original love story between Misa and Hikaru - it FURTHER goes on totally trounce the love story; making it a complete parody of a relationship. Rick and Lisa are in love because that's just their character "techspec" - that's their MO. There's no more love triangle tensions, and there's not even any longer any of the tensions that take place within a budding relationship.

You don't see them mature as characters. Oh sure - in Sentinels, Rick goes through the routine "Oh - the burden of this heavy responsibility on my shoulders" thing that "leaders" go through... but even that makes me kind of pissed.

I mean - Hikaru loved to fly and he loved Minmey. He later came to fall in love with Misa and to take seriously the idea that he wanted to end the war by using culture (and he never liked the war in the first place and was always looking for something to justify him being mixed up in it...he joined the military only because he didn't want to look a coward in Minmey's eyes, and he stayed sane in it by telling himself he was fighting to protect Minmey...)

But the point is - Hikaru was never going to become a "leader" - not in the same sense that Rick suddenly became one - because all Rick became was Captain Kirk with a wife on board, piloting the Battle Star Galactica, teaming up with aliens a la Star Wars, and galaxy hoping to fight an interplanetary war about a flower and some slugs.

This just shows how wise Kawamori was to leave the original cast of SDFM TV alone. With the exception of Fokker's retroactive "return" in Zero, which was quaint and in no way lessened the character, the original cast was left alone and new characters kept being introduced - and Macross became a kind of vehicle for Kawamori's latest ideas in terms of mecha, anime and story telling. There's always some new twist.

As for the meta-story vs. the arc... generally I tend to prefer arcs - true. But in this case, because the characters become so diluted...I prefer the meta-story.

But see - even these reasons you give for liking Robotech are kind of weak and similar to my "when I was 8, I read this Robotech novel and generally thought it was amazing" because now I'm 30 and I demand more mature and intelligent content.

Like singing green haired lolis in skimpy outfits.

Pete

[Lolicon]

As for the meta-story vs. the arc... generally I tend to prefer arcs - true. But in this case, because the characters become so diluted...I prefer the meta-story.

But see - even these reasons you give for liking Robotech are kind of weak and similar to my "when I was 8, I read this Robotech novel and generally thought it was amazing" because now I'm 30 and I demand more mature and intelligent content.

Like singing green haired lolis in skimpy outfits.

Nothing wrong with a singing loli with green hair.

Penguin's is the first coherent and somewhat compelling reason I've ever read as to why people would even like Robotech. I too prefer story arcs that deal with the consequences of peoples' actions. Compare a fairly serialized show like Deep Space Nine to the episodic nature of The Next Generation or Voyager, which have very little episode to episode continuity. They're always in the Bajoran sector and anything that happens reverberates in later episodes; they can't just warp away to the next alien of the week.

But in the case of Robotech, I agree that the characters became diluted and uninteresting in later productions. Like the cast of Voyager, they became cardboard cutouts of human beings. Kawamori decided against having Hikaru, Misa, and Minmay in any future productions because he felt their stories had been told, their arcs completed, and showing them again would just be extraneous and would add nothing new or interesting.

In short: the Robotech universe became dull and generic after "The Macross Saga." Any wonder why it's the most popular part of Robotech?

Oh, and I read all the McKinney novels years ago, and I thought they were the best part of Robotech. ("Best" being a relative term, of course.)

[Penguin]

As for the meta-story vs. the arc... generally I tend to prefer arcs - true. But in this case, because the characters become so diluted...I prefer the meta-story.

But see - even these reasons you give for liking Robotech are kind of weak and similar to my "when I was 8, I read this Robotech novel and generally thought it was amazing" because now I'm 30 and I demand more mature and intelligent content.

But in the case of Robotech, I agree that the characters became diluted and uninteresting in later productions. Like the cast of Voyager, they became cardboard cutouts of human beings. Kawamori decided against having Hikaru, Misa, and Minmay in any future productions because he felt their stories had been told, their arcs completed, and showing them again would just be extraneous and would add nothing new or interesting.

No argument here on any of these points. As far as the novels go, it was the main 12 that formed my best impression, before we got dragged down the Sentinels path. "Zentraedi Rebellion" is definitely the best of the "expanded universe" (to coin a term ), building as it did on the comics series of the times and providing some interesting exploration of Miria, Max, Leonard, and Wolff. While there is a sweeping narrative, which I like, the character quality suffers terribly as the novels progress. It doesn't reach a B5 or BSG level of quality where the characters remain engaging throughout, which in turn makes you actually care about the sweeping narrative. Without the character, a sweeping narrative reads like an encyclopedia entry on history. That's the main reason why my fandom of Robotech has waned with time. Most characters aren't developed beyond the original stories, and those that do continue get run into the ground.

The "it was amazing when I was 8" analogy doesn't really apply for me, though . I was in my late teens when the novels came out, and there wasn't any "gee-whiz". I'd been reading Herbert, Tolkien, Bradbury, Silverburg, et al for years, so the novels were never anything more than simple diversion. Re-reading them now, I still find them enjoyable, just like those old Han Solo novels.

Edited October 27, 2009 by Penguin

[VFTF1]

This would be a great time for a bona fide, card carrying, full blown Robotech fan to jump in and enlighten us as to why there's more to the magic...

Although - I could go on...so I will...

1) Senintels.

Now, insofar as I hate Planet Killers and generally think that the ending of this arc (as it was planned) is just horrible standard sci-fi fodder, I did like the set up. I have Robotech Art III, where you have a write up of all the episodes and then some mecha art (heh...notice how a book called "Robotech Art III" has "some mecha art" ...er..but I digress), and I found the general idea compelling. I also remember watching the first three episodes that were animated to Sentinels - and while I hated the opening, with Jack Baker in that stupid flight simulator, the cheesy-as-hell nintendo music playing and then Max and Rick chuckling like school girls....I did think things got interesting when we switched to Cabel and Rem. The Hellcats were again a tad generic - but whatever... Also - the music track when Cabel and Rem were doing their things was good.

The thing that made Sentinels fall apart is that it just got blown out of proportions. Suddenly it was Star Wars, Star Treck, and Battle Star Galactic with Transforming robots. Plus - although Minmey came with Rick...it seemed her only purpose was to be a sex fantasy for Johnathan Wolff rather than a girl with dreams of singing...

Oh yeah - that brings me to my next problem with Sentinels. Just like Rick and Lisa, who already got diluted by the bad writing for the Macross Saga, were later diluted even more as Robotech went on (ultimately devolving into the card board fanwank "wow!" moment in Shadow Chronicles when "Rick Hunter" appears for his 25 second "This is RICK HUNTER!' communique)...so too Minmay went from being a cute down-to-earth girl with dreams turned idol to a wet dream. I mean...what possible role did she have in sentinels? In the rest of Robotech?

Oh - oh yeah. She was the 'Mother of the Universe' the time traveling poon-tang that was the Alpha and Omega of everything - she was THE STORY ARC.

Well - truth be told - I like my human characters, and particularly my female characters - to be a bit more human.

That is to say - when Minmey stops being a girl and a singer and becomes a Saint - as in...she stops being a "regular" character and becomes like...I dunno..The Matrix of Leadership. She becomes a talisman with boobs. Nothing more. She's the Prime Mover of the Robotech universe and in that role she is, as Aristotle says of the Prime Mover "All Alone." That is to say - she's lonely - she's no longer a woman...you can't identify with her..there's no more story to tell.

She just becomes a chronological arc. Minmey must be here now, with these people, getting banged by this guy, because the Chronology demands it. Next, Minmey must be here, with these other people, getting banged by this other guy, because the Chronology demands that too. And on and on it goes.

It's not just that it's predictable - it's that the "story arc" portion of Robotech suddenly eats away at the characters to the extent where you feel that they do things simply because "that's what has to happen."

This COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED with better animation. By "better animation" I mean better sequencing. Like in Gurren Lagann - if you've seen the series, you pretty much know by now that Gurren Lagann was unstoppable from the beginning - and that NOTHING that the Helix King or the Anti-Spirals might have done would have stopped Gurren Lagann.

BUT

Gainax NEVER let you think that when watching it for the first time. Over and over and over they would set up these situations where you - the viewer - were like "shyt! No way they're getting out of this one!" and then BANG! something totally crazy and unexpected would happen and you're like "OH MY GOD!"

Sadly, Robotech just got lazy. Robotech - in terms of story and animation - was basically SOOO tied to "sticking strictly with the chronology" that it seemed to become scared to introduce ANY sense of mystery or APPREHENSION.

Because - you know...if at any point in the novels or TV shows we had...oh ... I dunno...for example had scenes implying that maybe Rick and Lisa's marriage wasn't going to last...or implying that maybe something...ANYTHING unexpected was going to happen... then that would have meant...that Robotech would...be open to different interpretations - and that means...maybe people would not be totally clear on the time line, the chronology...that there would be debate ...

But in my view- this is Robotech's main weakness. It's like...there is no dramatic tension there. Heck - look at Shadow CHronicles. I mean - is there any dramatic tension whatsoever?

EVEN the Ariel plot point - with the whole "how could you bring this alien bitch aboard when my buddy died" evolving to "oh this alien bitch is cool because she's risking herself for us".... was pretty predictable. Wasn't it?

Certainly the Haydonites being the bad guys was pretty predictable given how they were cloaked in dark evil...

And all of this bad stuff just goes to show how quickly you can ruin a good concept - because the beginning of Sentinels - the concept behind it - namely the SDF-3 going to search for the Robotech Masters homeworld...that's somewhat interesting. That's like a good basis for creating a story.

But the story can't JUST be about the ARC - it has to be a story about a bunch of people on a space ship... kind of like the Macross Saga was and SDFM TV was.

Notice all the stuff that happens to the Macross on its' way from Pluto to Earth. Notice how the characters develop. Notice how even during the story arc where we learn about Protoculture and the Zendradi - the story manages to do an amazing job of developing the relationship with Hikaru and Misa... Robotech doesn't do this. Robotech bypasses character development in favor of the "big picture" - in favor of showing "what needs to be shown."

That's a major weakness.

Pete

[jenius]

Hey, the Sentinels may suck, but that scene where the Regent walks into a room of captured Tirolians and then rewards them with a bomb that kills them all was pretty sweet. That was a very bad bug man.

[VFTF1]

Yep - that was a good scene. In fact, I also found the interaction between the Regent and Tesla to be rather well written. But again - this was the beginning... and the novels managed to really make a mess out of it. I mean - Planet Killers was just crazy. Bad descriptive writing...I felt like the descriptions were about some kid's bedroom floor. Glowing blue crystals...dudes floating around on rugs like in Super Mario Bros. 2...

Well...whatever..I'm going to bed.

Sad, really... but I feel like if we continue with out discussion, Macrossworld will become a better place for intelligent talk about Robotech than RT.com...

I mean - again - if the highest level of inquisitive consideration that Robotech fans are capable of is wondering about the length of the stupid SDF-1... then Robotech has a problem - because for all its' faults - there had to be something more to it than...that?

Pete

[Penguin]

The thing is, one has to wonder why the Sentinels' characters ended up the way they did in the novels. Luceno and Daley have written some okay stuff. It would have been fine, for example, to take Minmay down a dark path. You could take it on a realistic arc from the end of Macross, with her optimism turning sour with time and leading her to a needy place. A need for acceptance can turn into a desparate clinging to whoever comes around. You could try to read some of that into what they attempted (if one was feeling charitable), but the result is a such a mess, dragging her into such a pathetic character that, by the end, I hated the character. And while even that is okay for a story (not every character has to end well), watching a character self-destruct with that sort of morbid curiousity reserved for car wrecks, the execution was neither engaging nor entertaining, at least for me.

Sad, really... but I feel like if we continue with our discussion, Macrossworld will become a better place for intelligent talk about Robotech than RT.com...

Don't worry... I'm certain we'll descend into decadent mockery before too long.

Edited October 27, 2009 by Penguin

[taksraven]

This is an aspect of my overall science fiction enjoyment that Macross doesn't fulfill for me. The various Macross productions leave a lot of intervening events and societal changes to a meta-story that has to be more inferred than it is explored. This isn't a criticism, since I don't believe in knocking a story for not being what it's not trying to be, and Kawamori and Co. don't seem interested in exploring that aspect of the Macross universe. To me, it's more of a missed opportunity. Whenever I read the complete timeline I wonder about things like the "Delta War" or giant Zentraedi being banished from Earth, the events around them, and the consequences. The sequels themselves, so far, are kinda "bottle shows" in that, aside from the evolution of the VF, the sequels don't explore a lot of fallout from the previous series. Frontier visited a lot of the previous productions, but most of it (IMHO) is more homage than exploration of the consequence of past events. Each story introduces something brand new (rogue AI, Protodeviln, Vajra), whose story is wrapped up by the end. Really, we get more of an evolving story of the Protoculture than we do of humanity.

Again, this isn't intended as a criticism of Macross. The way the galaxy has been constructed, with colonies and fleets spread all over the place, it's perfectly plausible that what happens to one of them doesn't ripple much throughout the rest of the galaxy, except that VFs get updated. However, it is, for me, a story style I enjoy that the Robotech Saga provides for me and Macross does not.

I think that the way that Macross has been modelled as a SF franchise has been fairly successful. Not too backward looking, as you observed, but with enough "heritage" in each story to keep the old fans coming back for more. I think that the main advantage of this style of storytelling is that the production teams have generally avoided strangling themselves with continuity while keeping each production fresh.

Taksraven

[VF5SS]

It's more common to Japanese sci-fi series to produce a lot of standalone works with little tie-in or background material. Which is the rub when you're trying to force Japanese series to conform to that kind of western style you just end losing what made the Japanese shows different to begin with.

[ShadowValkyrie]

One of the things that Macross has, that Robotech doesn't, is the sense-- at least for me-- of something bigger is behind it all. I don't mean Protoculture or the ProtoDevlin, or even the missing Megaroad01. I'm just talking about each of the series having a sense of being just one tiny little story in this massive universe, and that humanity is moving towards something that is just going to blow everything away. It's the little bits and clues and bread crumps left from show to show, where just when you think you've got it nailed, how the Macross Universe works, you realize you're wrong.

It isn't just all gutted and spilled out on the table like Robotech. There isn't an compulsive need to make everything inter connect to the point of making the universe seem about as big as somebodies backyard.

[Einherjar]

I say it took big ones for HG to openly chuck out a lot of the progression from the novels and such to bring Robotech in a new direction, and even bigger ones to just leave everyone hanging for 3+ years without an explanation since. Oh, and then keep people waiting for a live movie on the big screen which will retcon the whole thing once again, but "for a new generation." People may have fond memories about the novels and such, but it doesn't represent the series anymore. HG wants you to remember the 85 episodes, but most importantly the first 36, when you think of Robotech. Sure, if they ever try again with animation and such, there's a possibility that you'll see material from those days. But if you're expecting the same qualities as well as quality material that hooked you into all of this before, there's a very slim chance of that happening. It's a different type of media where a lot of what happened in the books are either very difficult to replicate or can't be done convincingly. Also remember that they want to take it in their own completely different direction. Carl Macek, gone. Jack McKinney, gone (at least half of him). BW, gone and very protective about their stuff being misused.

I think HG screwed themselves trying to keep Robotech relevant. They're left with a lot of amateurs hiding behind technology.

Edited October 27, 2009 by Einherjar

[Gubaba]

For some unfathomable reason, I've been mildly obsessing over this since Pete first asked the question (and oft repeated), trying to pin down what I like about Robotech that Macross doesn't provide. I write mildly obsessed since my Robotech fandom is like a muscle that's deteriorated from lack of use. I have to admit, what follows isn't really why I think Robotech is better than Macross, 'cause I don't, but it is at least a mildly thoughtful if not compelling reason beyond "misty childhood memory" of why I still think fondly of Robotech.

First, I have to begin with the caveat that it was the McKinney novels that form most of my opinion of Robotech. The animation went off the air here shortly after Ben's death, so all it really did was set up my future Macross addiction . I started reading the novels partly from curiousity and partly because half of "Jack McKinney" was Brian Daley, and I've always loved his Han Solo novels.

One thing I really like is science fiction with a greater continuity, showing how society changes from the events in the story (Babylon 5, new Battlestar Galactica, etc.). For me, at least, the Robotech novels were an entertaining read that provided that kind of sweeping arc. It was later that I would see just how much Daley and Luceno had expanded beyond the source material to create such a complete picture (aside from obvious things like Alphas being mentioned in Southern Cross, or the old guys with the ship in Invid Invasion having been Southern Cross troopers). I ended up viewing the animation as presenting highlights from a more complete story.

Bravo, Penguin, bravo.

I find it interesting how many of the more...shall we say, "thoughtful" RT fans point to the novels as coequal with or surpassing the animation in their opinion. I didn't like the books (for reasons that have more to do with me and what I wanted at the time: I wanted to learn more about the three separate series that made up Robotech; I wanted to see them split apart, not glued more closely together), but I can see why other people did like them.

I don't think they can stand up to the great, epic science fiction series, like Foundation or Dune, but they're not bad, at least not at first.

But I see your point. Science fiction literature has always been a great place to tell very long, cohesive (and often multi-generational) stories. It's one advantage for books that movies and television will never be able to compete with. And the Robotech novels try to tap into that grand tradition.

As you say, Macross doesn't try to do this. And really, it can't. It's impossible to do such a long format, coherent tale as an original TV series.

While I'd argue that the RT novels don't necessarily do what they do well, they are indeed doing something that Macross can't.

I think that the way that Macross has been modelled as a SF franchise has been fairly successful. Not too backward looking, as you observed, but with enough "heritage" in each story to keep the old fans coming back for more. I think that the main advantage of this style of storytelling is that the production teams have generally avoided strangling themselves with continuity while keeping each production fresh.

Taksraven

That has advantages, too. But there is something nice about being able to look at a whole bunch of connected works and realize that they are telling a single, grand story. Macross can't do that. Robotech tried but, I think, failed pretty hard at it. The first ten years of Gundam almost make it. Legend of the Galactic Heroes is the only one I can think off-hand that does it well.

[ShadowValkyrie]

I would be interesting, if the live action movie ever gets made, to see if they use it to spring board a new animated series based on the "timeline".

[Gubaba]

It's more common to Japanese sci-fi series to produce a lot of standalone works with little tie-in or background material. Which is the rub when you're trying to force Japanese series to conform to that kind of western style you just end losing what made the Japanese shows different to begin with.

That's a good point, too. One of the reasons I got into anime when I was a kid (and I mean once I started getting the uncut, unsubbed, rented-from-a-video-store-in-Little-Tokyo variety) was the exoticness of it. I liked that the stories made little sense to me, that it was in a language I couldn't understand, and that, really, all bets were off because anything could happen at any time, and I could never predict where anything was headed.

Robotech the series tried to smooth a lot of those edges away (no baby-toss in Robotech, thank you very much), and the novels went further still in (as I noted above) trying to fit the story into a very western tradition, which doesn't fully succeed. A lot of what makes the originals interesting to me is wiped away once they're made to conform to perceived cultural standards.

[Bri]

It isn't just all gutted and spilled out on the table like Robotech. There isn't an compulsive need to make everything inter connect to the point of making the universe seem about as big as somebodies backyard.

Yea, that's always the feeling Robotech generated with me. Each RT generation presented like a Star trek bridge crew and they are going end up as part of a family pantheon of demi-gods under the benign and unfallible leadership of God-emperor Admiral Hunter. In fairness this is a recurring theme in western sci-fi. Macross is much more a universe where no single character ever really gets to oversee the whole picture and the focus is more on human society evolving then the rise and glory of a single clan.

Edited October 27, 2009 by Bri

[VFTF1]

Oddly enough, the only thing that I find really "interesting" about Robotech is the extent to which it's so messed up. I kind of sit there wondering - what will they screw up next?

Pete

[Einherjar]

That has advantages, too. But there is something nice about being able to look at a whole bunch of connected works and realize that they are telling a single, grand story. Macross can't do that. Robotech tried but, I think, failed pretty hard at it. The first ten years of Gundam almost make it. Legend of the Galactic Heroes is the only one I can think off-hand that does it well.

I thought Legend of the Galactic Heroes worked because it started out as a collection of novels before the anime. It was originally made to have that feel and talented people were able to transfer that into animation effectively.

[Gubaba]

Oddly enough, the only thing that I find really "interesting" about Robotech is the extent to which it's so messed up. I kind of sit there wondering - what will they screw up next?

Pete

Again, I present...

[Gubaba]

I thought Legend of the Galactic Heroes worked because it started out as a collection of novels before the anime. It was originally made to have that feel and talented people were able to transfer that into animation effectively.

Yes...which is why it had the most "literary" feel of almost any anime I've ever seen.

It also had the benefit of being an OVA series. If it had been on TV, there would've been more market pressure to turn it into something that anyone could jump into, at almost any point.

[VFTF1]

Yeah...that..anyways...

I'm going to bed this time for sure...

But first - my final rant of the evening:

BEFORE Cpt. Donovan showed up, if you'll all recall, we were having a multi-page discussion of the Robotech novels. While there was a lot of bashing of them, it was also evident people had read them or were trying to get the stories traight in terms of what was presented there in.

Enter the Robotech fan.

Does he help us understand Robotech better? No. Elucidate the novels in a way we're not grasping? No. NOTICE that we've actually been attempting to discuss the merits and demerits of the novels? No.

Instead he whines about how he's being mistreated even though nobody's done anything to him, then asks why the SDF-1 is 1200 meters long, then goes away.

What the hell?

Goodnight MW

Pete

[Jasonc]

One of the things that Macross has, that Robotech doesn't, is the sense-- at least for me-- of something bigger is behind it all. I don't mean Protoculture or the ProtoDevlin, or even the missing Megaroad01. I'm just talking about each of the series having a sense of being just one tiny little story in this massive universe, and that humanity is moving towards something that is just going to blow everything away. It's the little bits and clues and bread crumps left from show to show, where just when you think you've got it nailed, how the Macross Universe works, you realize you're wrong.

Agreed. Macross does give that feeling that the universe is BIG, not just physically, but as far as the stretch of what humanity has done. Although Macross 7 has its haters, there's one thing I liked about it. It made you realize that the story being told was only the Macross 7. When you see what happens to the Macross 5, and how the Protodevlin get their mecha, you realize that humanity is really reaching out to the universe, and bad things do happen. Technology amongst different fleets isn't all the same (i.e. Mac F VF-25 and VF-27 from Frontier and Galaxy fleets respectively). This setup as far as being able to tell a new story without having to be so far anchored in the previous series makes Macross exciting, and gives it a broader picture than Robotech did. Of course this is my opinion, and I'm used to Japanese sytle storytelling a bit more. I mean, after a collection of about 800 DVDs and countless downloads of anime series, the styles and various aspects of it grow on you.

Robotech was fresh when it first aired. While it was "Westernized" and whatnot, it still kept a lot of it's Japanese roots. In reading the McKinney novels, I found that the story there was much more developed, and many things explained. I loved that part of it, but in turn, while it was/is great reading, it takes a lot of the "anime" feel out of it. I also have to agree that as the novels went on, they did lose touch with many of the characters, who became forced into their roles, and mere cardboard cutouts. Nevertheless, I still think McKinney as the writing group raised the bar for Robotech productions that just couldn't be met in the "anime" productions they've tried. Even with a full production release of Shadow Chronicles, you can tell where it wants to be, just executed ever so horribly.

It's why you'll never see me knock the novels (except for EOTC), or the original aired Robotech. Those were what made me a fan of the series and I can understand why people still like it today. As for the stuff after that, it's all just imitation, and not duplication. I think that's what they were trying to achieve with every production, they've just failed miserably everytime.

[Einherjar]

What's left for those who were fond of the novels and thought it was the best representation of Robotech then? They're a minority with the comic book and maybe the RPG fans in HG's eyes when it comes to canon.

[taksraven]

That has advantages, too. But there is something nice about being able to look at a whole bunch of connected works and realize that they are telling a single, grand story. Macross can't do that. Robotech tried but, I think, failed pretty hard at it. The first ten years of Gundam almost make it. Legend of the Galactic Heroes is the only one I can think off-hand that does it well.

I dunno, I guess that Star Wars burned me when it comes to large scale grand "sagas" in SF. To do one properly in a filmed work you should have the whole thing planned out from start to finish, this way you can avoid retconning in your own work. (The later Dune novels by Frank Herbert were classic examples of a lack of planning in an continuing written work.)

I agree with those who have suggested that it is really the story of the Protoculture that tie's Macross together. You never get to see them but their influence is constant.

Taksraven

[Lolicon]

What's left for those who were fond of the novels and thought it was the best representation of Robotech then? They're a minority with the comic book and maybe the RPG fans in HG's eyes when it comes to canon.

We jumped ship and became Macross fans exclusively. Even rats know when to abandon a sinking ship.

[taksraven]

Yeah...that..anyways...

I'm going to bed this time for sure...

But first - my final rant of the evening:

BEFORE Cpt. Donovan showed up, if you'll all recall, we were having a multi-page discussion of the Robotech novels. While there was a lot of bashing of them, it was also evident people had read them or were trying to get the stories traight in terms of what was presented there in.

Enter the Robotech fan.

Does he help us understand Robotech better? No. Elucidate the novels in a way we're not grasping? No. NOTICE that we've actually been attempting to discuss the merits and demerits of the novels? No.

Instead he whines about how he's being mistreated even though nobody's done anything to him, then asks why the SDF-1 is 1200 meters long, then goes away.

What the hell?

Goodnight MW

Pete

WELCOME, TO THE CWAZY WORLD OF ROBOTECH FANDOM!! :lol:

Taksraven

[taksraven]

I think that since this thread brings in so much discussion traffic, it attracts even more posters since a lot of us like to have responses to our stuff sooner rather than later.

Taksraven

[Gubaba]

What's left for those who were fond of the novels and thought it was the best representation of Robotech then? They're a minority with the comic book and maybe the RPG fans in HG's eyes when it comes to canon.

Lolicon's right. Most of them became Macross fans. Some of them still enjoy Robotech more, but they seem much less...cloistered? Defensive?

A lot of them simply haven't seen Macross, and I'm confident they'll become fans when they do.

But it's like the divide mentioned before (by, I believe, Bri) that a lot of general sci-fi fans remain on the Robotech side of things, whereas people more disposed towards anime like Macross.

I dunno, I guess that Star Wars burned me when it comes to large scale grand "sagas" in SF. To do one properly in a filmed work you should have the whole thing planned out from start to finish, this way you can avoid retconning in your own work. (The later Dune novels by Frank Herbert were classic examples of a lack of planning in an continuing written work.)

I agree with those who have suggested that it is really the story of the Protoculture that tie's Macross together. You never get to see them but their influence is constant.

Taksraven

After the initial trilogy, I can kind of take or leave Dune. To be honest, I never finished "Heretics" (keep meaning to get around to it one of these days... ). But let's face facts: the original Star Wars trilogy, as good as it often was, contains not even a tenth of the world-building on display in Dune, or Lord of the Rings...hell, even the Foundation Trilogy is a more detailed as a fictional universe. As I said before, books have it ALL OVER movies and TV shows in terms of length and depth, if they care to strive for it. Look at the Lord of the Rings...how much history and backstory was alluded to in the books, how much detail was covered in the appendices, covering everything from Hobbit linguistics to calendars. The movies can broadly hint at this (and definitely have their own strengths) but that kind of depth and breadth...if someone wrote a novelization of the movies, telling only what was on the screen, it would be a poor, scraggly, emaciated thing next to Tolkien's books.

It's something that the Robotech novels attempt to do, but the SDF Macross novels don't even make the effort. (The DYRL novel, however, does...to a degree.)

[Freiflug88]

I dunno, I guess that Star Wars burned me when it comes to large scale grand "sagas" in SF. To do one properly in a filmed work you should have the whole thing planned out from start to finish, this way you can avoid retconning in your own work. (The later Dune novels by Frank Herbert were classic examples of a lack of planning in an continuing written work.)

Exactly and that is one perhaps the greatest flaw with Robotech's Grand Story. Due to its creation it was impossible to create Sagas that were planned out exactly to mesh together cohesively.

I agree with those who have suggested that it is really the story of the Protoculture that tie's Macross together. You never get to see them but their influence is constant.

Taksraven

Yeah, everywhere humanity has gone so far the Protoculture has apparently been there and done that. Personally I hope that a future Macross will show more about the Protoculture and who exactly they were.

So far all we really know about the Protoculture: they were the oldest and most advanced race of the universe spreading their culture everywhere and building Atlantic cities until they found a race of space vampires just looking for spiritra fed on them and fought them in a long grueling war. By then only any survivoring remainants of the Protoculture were able to some how find a way to ascend into a being of energy and have traveled to another plane of existance, except maybe that lone Protoculture spirit waiting for Basara and crew in Macross 7.

Which reminds me why hasn't Big West sued SyFy for ripping off their Ancient civilization and other ideas in: Stargate: SDF-1, Stargate: Ancient City from DYRL, and of course Stargate: Its our Destiny to search every Star in the universe for the Megaroad-1.

[justvinnie]

I happen to like the RT novels up to The Sentinels. The whole Karbarrans (Care Bear creatures) or Captain K'rrk and his crew on the N'terprs (or whatever ridiculous spelling they used) and the awful Moebius time loop plot in EOTC made me want those hours back. I always thought the novelization of RT was better than the actual show and I still consider it the canon RT whenever I think of RT. I still have those books around. somewhere.

dr vinnie