HG and Robotech Debates

[Jasonc]

Generally speaking, the Robotech fans who want to point fingers and accuse people of being "Macross Purists" are Robotech Purists, the fans who consider the "original 85" episodes of Robotech the be-all end-all of RT and anime in general, and the members of the lunatic fringe who want to banish anyone who doesn't share their views. On a Robotech board, the accusation that someone is a "Macross Purist" is a roundabout way of trying to invalidate what someone else has said without having to actually refute their arguments. For the accusing Robotech fan, calling someone a "Macross Purist" carries the following implicit ad hominem argument:

That term Robotech purist is a funny term, very contradictive in its title. Anyways...

In turn, there are a lot of fans who want to forget a lot of things that happened in Robotech as well; The Master's Saga, Sentinels, Untold Story, novels, comics, Shadow Chronicles. If fans were that selective about the whole thing, compared to us, at most they like only one additional thing about it, The New Generation/Mospeada. But from a nostalgic/long term point of view, fans always remember The Macross Saga anyway, so whatever intent the label was supposed to do is really hypocritical. Macross Saga is the ideal image of the entire franchise.

If there is a thing like a Robotech purists, it must be very difficult, as in all franchises I've seen, I've never seen such flights of canon, to non-canon, to partial canon story. The fans are so divided in what is, isn't, maybe, that to be a Robotech purists, that'd be similar to defining yourself amongst everyone you know. Everyone would have a different interpretation, maybe not in short definition, but to themselves. It struck me very odd when PTH kept labeling RT fans as Macross purist. While he has a very small IQ, no doubt, I found it odd that he was trying to use it as a demeaning term, when it's really not a bad thing at all.

[RCB]

Its funny how extreme fandom of any type degenerates into religious fanaticism. HG and RT.Com should organise a "Robotech Inquisition" and persecute/exterminate all unbelievers.

And if you guys think that RT is the worst, you should see Trek and Who extreme fandom. SF Franchises that have been around for over 40 years with fans that treat each other really badly.

Taksraven

Yeah, I like both quite a lot. Without Robotech, I wouldn't be the fan of Macross that I am today and may have never even heard of Mospeada. I like Voltron too not to mention Battle of the Planets/G-Force. All bastardizations but I like them none the less. Of course, I am a 30 something American, so its nostalgic for me. Those shows along with Ultraman and Godzilla (including the American cartoon) kept anime (and like media) in my mind probably until Akira blew the doors wide open.

Shoot, if it hadn't been for Robotech I wouldn't have ever played with Valkyries, an SDF-1 or the like. I was glad for Robotech and still am. I own them both.

If we really wanted to talk about destroying originals, we could talk about Transformers (the newer movies).

I have some serious doubts about the Robotech live action though. If it goes the same way as all these other live action interpretations, they would be better off to leave it where it is. I have yet to ever be impressed by any live action movie mech.

[BeyondTheGrave]

Yeah, I like both quite a lot. Without Robotech, I wouldn't be the fan of Macross that I am today and may have never even heard of Mospeada. I like Voltron too not to mention Battle of the Planets/G-Force. All bastardizations but I like them none the less. Of course, I am a 30 something American, so its nostalgic for me. Those shows along with Ultraman and Godzilla (including the American cartoon) kept anime (and like media) in my mind probably until Akira blew the doors wide open.

Shoot, if it hadn't been for Robotech I wouldn't have ever played with Valkyries, an SDF-1 or the like. I was glad for Robotech and still am. I own them both.

If we really wanted to talk about destroying originals, we could talk about Transformers (the newer movies).

I have some serious doubts about the Robotech live action though. If it goes the same way as all these other live action interpretations, they would be better off to leave it where it is. I have yet to ever be impressed by any live action movie mech.

But your proclaiming that RT is infinitely better than Macross.

Hey Seto would the original songs From macross fall under intellectual properties or distribution?

Even though HG's "remixes" are completely different from the originals.

[Seto Kaiba]

Hey Seto would the original songs From macross fall under intellectual properties or distribution?

Even though HG's "remixes" are completely different from the originals.

Copyrighted songs are intellectual property... though it's pretty much a given that Tatsunoko's distribution rights cover the music in the show's audio tracks as well. That is to say, Tatsunoko's distribution and merchandising rights to Macross outside of Japan would permit them to use the original music in a dubbed/subbed release of Macross, and to sell the soundtrack outside of Japan, but just as with the copyrighted character and mechanical designs they aren't the copyright holder on that intellectual property, so they can't use it in derivative works... like Robotech. The only things they can actually use in derivative works are the parts of the show they hold the copyrights to... which limits them to using just the footage of the series itself, but none of the material actually contained within.

[Einherjar]

If there is a thing like a Robotech purists, it must be very difficult, as in all franchises I've seen, I've never seen such flights of canon, to non-canon, to partial canon story. The fans are so divided in what is, isn't, maybe, that to be a Robotech purists, that'd be similar to defining yourself amongst everyone you know. Everyone would have a different interpretation, maybe not in short definition, but to themselves. It struck me very odd when PTH kept labeling RT fans as Macross purist. While he has a very small IQ, no doubt, I found it odd that he was trying to use it as a demeaning term, when it's really not a bad thing at all.

At least to Justy Ueki, they're just Purists. This is what I found from the old RDF Underground website:

http://www.rdfpodcast.com/node/773

Purist (1985 TV Broadcast Only)

McKinneyist (The Novels)

Spanglerist (The Eternity/Academy Comics)

RPGer (The Palladium RPG)

Macek-ist (Carl Macek is God)

Yunie (Tommy Yune's word is law)

Universalist (I love Robotech and it's many facets)

And of course:

Macross Purist (Macross all the way/Why am I on a Robotech site?)

Still, it's just one guy's semi-serious poll, but if this is true, fans love to label people. I've also seen people use 85er, probably the most obscure of them I've heard recently. Content-wise, I think the Macross Purist stacks above the rest since some of them have been openly shafted by HG in recent years.

[Gubaba]

At least to Justy Ueki, they're just Purists. This is what I found from the old RDF Underground website:

http://www.rdfpodcast.com/node/773

Purist (1985 TV Broadcast Only)

McKinneyist (The Novels)

Spanglerist (The Eternity/Academy Comics)

RPGer (The Palladium RPG)

Macek-ist (Carl Macek is God)

Yunie (Tommy Yune's word is law)

Universalist (I love Robotech and it's many facets)

And of course:

Macross Purist (Macross all the way/Why am I on a Robotech site?)

Still, it's just one guy's semi-serious poll, but if this is true, fans love to label people. I've also seen people use 85er, probably the most obscure of them I've heard recently. Content-wise, I think the Macross Purist stacks above the rest since some of them have been openly shafted by HG in recent years.

I think it IS kinda/sorta serious, since I've seen lots of RT fans describe themselves as "McKinneyists," and Wanzerfan described himself as a Spenglerist (although Seto keeps trying to convince me that Wanzerfan is ACTUALLY a Macross fan. ).

[Einherjar]

A little mistake I wrote, some of the other denominations for the fandom have been given the shaft by HG, not M purists directly. They can only do so much legally.

[Jasonc]

I think it IS kinda/sorta serious, since I've seen lots of RT fans describe themselves as "McKinneyists," and Wanzerfan described himself as a Spenglerist (although Seto keeps trying to convince me that Wanzerfan is ACTUALLY a Macross fan. ).

And let me guess, most of the more verbal speakers of these different sects of the Robotech religion don't get along?

[Gubaba]

And let me guess, most of the more verbal speakers of these different sects of the Robotech religion don't get along?

Divisiveness? In the Robotech fandom?

Surely you jest, good sir!

[MEMO1DOMINION]

ROBOTECH FAN DEFINITION BY A MACROSS FAN

(INSERT SETO'S COLLECTION OF WORDS TO USER NAME HERE)

MACROSS FAN DEFINITION BY A ROBOTECH FAN

MACROSS PURIST (REGARDLESS USER NAME)

AND THEN THE REGULAR ROBOTECH/MACROSS FAN

DON'T GET INVOLVED MUCH PAST A PURIST ON BOTH SIDES

SIMPLE, I GUESS ONE WORD DEFINES IT ALL

Edited December 10, 2009 by MEMO1DOMINION

[Einherjar]

ROBOTECH FAN DEFINITION BY A MACROSS FAN

(INSERT SETO'S COLLECTION OF WORDS TO USER NAME HERE)

MACROSS FAN DEFINITION BY A ROBOTECH FAN

MACROSS PURIST (REGARDLESS USER NAME)

SIMPLE, I GUESS ONE WORD DEFINES IT ALL

He's probably not going to read this anyway, knowing him, but he's ignoring context and the delivery of the label by certain people, maybe even from himself in some circumstances.

[taksraven]

ROBOTECH FAN DEFINITION BY A MACROSS FAN

(INSERT SETO'S COLLECTION OF WORDS TO USER NAME HERE)

MACROSS FAN DEFINITION BY A ROBOTECH FAN

MACROSS PURIST (REGARDLESS USER NAME)

AND THEN THE REGULAR ROBOTECH/MACROSS FAN

DON'T GET INVOLVED MUCH PAST A PURIST ON BOTH SIDES

SIMPLE, I GUESS ONE WORD DEFINES IT ALL

Sorry, I seem to be losing the ability to communicate down at the MEMO level. What the fark is that post supposed to mean?

Taksraven

[Gubaba]

Sorry, I seem to be losing the ability to communicate down at the MEMO level. What the fark is that post supposed to mean?

Taksraven

It means you're a Lying Macross Purist and Seto is your leader.

[Einherjar]

Sorry, I seem to be losing the ability to communicate down at the MEMO level. What the fark is that post supposed to mean?

Taksraven

He's going to make our lives a living hell next year, isn't he?

[Moly_Sigang]

Here's a good fan definition for those lunatic robotech fans like Memo: 'Yunie-Maceckchistic' or alternatively 'Yunie-Macekist'

Edited December 10, 2009 by Moly_Sigang

[Jasonc]

If it was that simple, I don't think RT fandom would be divided 3 or 4 different ways as it is now. Lately, and this isn't just my assumption, but Macross Purist has become anyone that doesn't believe in the status quo of the site. People like even Goldie from rt.com have been labled as a Macross Purist, simply because they've presented something that is contrary to what is being pushed. While the lable by definition isn't a bad thing, I know on rt.com and probably on rtx.com, it's used to seperate those that are supposedly subversive from everyone else.

In anycase, I don't think Macross fans define all RT fans as you say, Memo. I mean, Seto was on Robotech.com as a fan as well. Most fans of Macross like both, maybe just prefer Macross and all its consequent series over Robotech. I think the times and things people have shown to become most critical about Robotech are 1)HG itself, 2)Absurb fan actions, and 3)Lies, half truths, and misinformation. I think the rest of it that is done here is mostly for the sake of entertainment and discussion about the topic. I dunno, it's late, and I'm tired.

[VFTF1]

Sorry, I seem to be losing the ability to communicate down at the MEMO level. What the fark is that post supposed to mean?

Taksraven

Translation:

ROBOTECH FAN DEFINITION BY A MACROSS FAN

(INSERT SETO'S COLLECTION OF WORDS TO USER NAME HERE)

Meaning: The Definition of a Robotech fan according a Macross fan is whatever Seto says it is.

MACROSS FAN DEFINITION BY A ROBOTECH FAN

MACROSS PURIST (REGARDLESS USER NAME)

Meaning: The definition of a Macross fan by a Robotech fan is "Macross Purist."

AND THEN THE REGULAR ROBOTECH/MACROSS FAN

DON'T GET INVOLVED MUCH PAST A PURIST ON BOTH SIDES

Meaning: People who like Macross AND Robotech don't get involved with the radicals on either side as defined above (aka Seto is a radical "purist" just like Robotech fans who hate Macross are radical Robotech purists).

NOW ME PETE SAYING SOMETHING...although not in Grimlock voice:

I disagree.

I don't think Seto is a radical purist, and I actually don't think that this distinction between "regular Robotech/Macross fans" vs. the radical purists of Macross and the Radical purists of Robotech holds much weight.

Why?

Because the "regular Robotech/Macross fan" seems to presume that this mean is the desired norm. It presumes there's no tension between Macross and Robotech.

But there is tension.

And I'm not talking about political tension between Robotech.com and MW people in this thread or between Seto and you guys.

Nope.

I'm talking about tension between the original Japanese SDFM TV Macross and Robotech. They are in tension with eachother because they use the same footage to tell two different stories.

Macross fans prefer the original story.

Robotech fans prefer the story that was created on the basis of the footage, which is not the original story of Macross.

I believe any attempt to hide this tension under the misty and general vague moniker of "Robotech/Macross fan" does a disservice to...Macross.

It's a disservice to Macross because it makes it seem like there's no big deal, it's just a cool story with transforming jets flying around.

But there's so much more to Macross, and seems to be so much less to Robotech, that to artificially tie the two in some happy "mean between extremes" is actually just belittling Macross in favor of Robotech - making it seem like Macross is a tolerable part of the amazing whole that is Robotech - that the two can co-exist.

Yet in the end - if you're honest - the question of "which is better and why?" is bound to arise since the two are so different.

I agree that it's senseless for the two sides to run away into their extremist camps and not talk to eachother - that's silly and counter productive.

But the problem really arises when they DO try to talk. Inevitably - the Macross side starts giving concrete examples of why Macross is better - examples that hold a lot of logic and passion in them.

Meanwhile, Robotech gives us something like that "Top 10 reasons" list from Topless Robot that we laughed at a couple pages back.

And it seems Robotech can't do any better than that.

Pete

[Einherjar]

I believe any attempt to hide this tension under the misty and general vague moniker of "Robotech/Macross fan" does a disservice to...Macross.

It's a disservice to Macross because it makes it seem like there's no big deal, it's just a cool story with transforming jets flying around.

But there's so much more to Macross, and seems to be so much less to Robotech, that to artificially tie the two in some happy "mean between extremes" is actually just belittling Macross in favor of Robotech - making it seem like Macross is a tolerable part of the amazing whole that is Robotech - that the two can co-exist.

You bring up a good point, considering the way he has positioned himself. He does avoid the very serious issues about the situation for something more overly optimistic or favorable. But what do you expect from someone who walks the thin line between being a fan and wanting to be... something more?

Edited December 10, 2009 by Einherjar

[VFTF1]

Well look - people see things differently. There are always consequences to the ideas and opinions you hold. No one can force you to change them, but they sure can make your life lonely.

MW is cool, and this thread is cool, because no mods are stepping in here to enforce any party lines. As long as we're not saying bad things about our mothers, everybody gets to say what they please and hold opinions that might even be "illogical" - as long as they are not rude.

I wouldn't be too hard on Memo.

I would take this opportunity to note that the most important thing is not WHAT he wrote but WHERE he wrote it.

He could have written that on Robotech.com - instead, he joined us to write it here.

That's good. That means he's open to talking.

Be happy with that and be more curteous to him than RT.com would be to you if you wrote your thoughts on Macross/Robotech over there.

Pete

[Robelwell202]

I wouldn't be too hard on Memo.

Well, if you won't, then I will.

He openly endorses Bendo's rhetoric, and compared JT's podcast to Bendo's, citing a coming 'Podcast War' that's probably not ever going to happen.

He perma-banned Seto, and promised to re-instate Bendo when Bendo threw much uglier and disgusting crap out in the RTX forums, and who also becaome openly hostile when others put up arguments that went against his own opinion-based ones.

Add to this, he's abused his power on RT.com, and banned people who've done nothing more than present logical debates and fact-based, document-backed arguments against what his opinion deems is thruth.

And his latest line of thought is to try and weasel RT's lame excuse for itself into the realm of MW, so that he can be seens as someone who's attempted to bridge the gap between the two fandoms. Believe me, folks, he has no altruistic reason behind his methods.

No, I've got no use for Captain Caps-Lock.

EDIT: This post will probably get me banned on RTX, but I really don't give a damn.

Edited December 10, 2009 by Robelwell202

[VFTF1]

I'm not surprised there's a lot of ill-will towards him. Technically, if I had signed up to be a member of Robotech.com over the last few months, I probably would have also gotten banned and burned.

But I didn't, because I'm not a Robotech fan. To me, like I often noted, the whole "Macross/Robotech" issue is just a side issue. It's tabloid fodder, if you will. It doesn't have any impact whatsoever on my enjoyment of Macross.

That said - lots of people in this thread are kind of "refugees" from Robotech.com where they have been badly treated - and then the guy who treats them badly waltzes in here and takes advantage of the same polite atmosphere and open discussion that he denied to them in the old website.

I understand that.

However - think about it this way:

What's the point?

What's the point in bad mouthing Memo when Memo is posting on MW - not just in this thread, but in two others - one of which is about a Macross show?

Doesn't that just mean that you have already won?

No matter what Memo posts here or in the M7 thread - all it means is that he's acknowledged that it sucks to be "right" when "being right" means that you're talking to about 3 people on your website where everybody else is banned.

So I say - let's not get into a pissing fight with him since he has come here and started posting in MW. Let's treat him like any other member.

I loved making fun of him when he wasn't here - but that only makes sense if he never shows up and never musters the courage to post, and not to flame - but to actually just post normal posts.

Well - he showed up and he's posting. He's always going to be MEMO - nobody ever said he can't be. The problem was that he didn't seem to want to let Seto be Seto, and you be you etc.

But that was on a different board. This board lets people be themselve as long as they are polite to eachother, and lets Robotech discussion happen as long as it's in this thread.

Again - think about it this way:

What do you want to achieve?

You want to run him off? To make him feel unwelcome?

What point will that serve? He'll just then think that all his prejudices about "Macross Purists" were true and that we're all a bunch of asssholes.

I think it would be better if we made him feel welcome, if he stuck around and if we all became friends.

You have no reason to feel like you need to make it a point of honor to give a laundry list of the guys' transgressions.

The fact that he's posting here and in the M7 thread and inviting people to work together at a convention means you've won.

Sure - you can be paranoid about his motives - but come on.

Remember - this is the internet. What's Memo going to do? Is he going to eat you? Is he going to rape your mother (my favorite EXO line).

No. Memo can't do anything truly damaging to you.

And I honestly think Memo might just be a little bored of being lonely and having nobody to talk to.

So bury the hatchet - that's my advise.

Don't turn MW into RT.com

Pete

[Aladdin Sane]

I understand the point of letting people be who they are, allowing their points of view and not lowering ourselves to the RT.com/RTX level but the thing with MEMO is that he's a broken record. A deluded, broken record that has taken on a meaning of it's own independent of the original recording artist. Or maybe it's not ENTIRELY removed from the intended message, just taking the original message and extrapolating it to the extreme, ultimately corrupting it.

We all know Big West owns the IP rights to Macross, yet Memo has the idea in his head that said rights are only relevant in Japan and that Tatsunoko own the IP rights to Macross as it relates to the rest of the world. This is the message that he spreads. Even quotes from the holy father of Robotech himself, Carl Macek, are being twisted and broken by MEMO and his partner in crime, MaverickLSC to completely misrepresent their original intention. Macek says: "We couldn't use the original designs". Sounds simple, right? HG's licencing partner, Tatsunoko, don't own the actual rights to create derivative works based on Macross so Rick, Lisa et al needed to be reworked for stuff like Sentinels to be legally released. Yet they're forcing words into his mouth, talking about how this simple quote somehow implies that the evolving aesthetic of the show necessitated the designs to be more reminiscent of Southern Cross.

MEMO is purposefully obfuscating the truth, constantly regurgitating things that simply aren't true. I don't want to hold personal grudges or doubt particular individuals, but I wouldn't trust MEMO as far as I could throw him, and throwing him even the slightest distance would have to be some kind of Herculean poo given the distance between Australia and America.

Edited December 10, 2009 by Aladdin Sane

[Seto Kaiba]

Still, it's just one guy's semi-serious poll, but if this is true, fans love to label people. I've also seen people use 85er, probably the most obscure of them I've heard recently. Content-wise, I think the Macross Purist stacks above the rest since some of them have been openly shafted by HG in recent years.

No kidding... of course it should come as no surprise after having me wax poetic about the various witch hunts and wars which plagued the online Robotech fandom in its early years earlier in this thread. It's those conflicts on RT.com and many of its antecedents that created most if not all of those labels that Robotech fans have spent the last decade or thereabouts branding each other with.

(although Seto keeps trying to convince me that Wanzerfan is ACTUALLY a Macross fan. ).

I've kind of abandoned that as a bad job for the time being... I'll reeducate him later.

And let me guess, most of the more verbal speakers of these different sects of the Robotech religion don't get along?

Eh, they get along a lot better now than they did back when I first got into the Robotech scene... but that might have something to do with them segregating themselves on separate websites and forcibly scourging any dissenters from their ranks. It used to be like the Crusades, now the most overt hostility has quieted down, if only because there are fewer people left in the fandom to be hostile to each other.

Sorry, I seem to be losing the ability to communicate down at the MEMO level. What the fark is that post supposed to mean?

You're not the only one... not having to deal with MEMO's borderline-illiteracy, constant use of caps-lock, and his insane, blind faith in Harmony Gold in the aftermath of my initially-temporary ban from RobotechX (which MEMO saw fit to make permanent while promising to unban Doug Bendo, despite Bendo's near-constant attacks on most of the site's members) has been an enormous blessing. Now that my interaction with Robotech fans is mainly limited to talking with only those few remaining intelligent, reasonable people left in the fandom (yes, they DO still exist), I feel much, MUCH less inclined to waste my time helping the dangerous stupids that make up the mainstream Robotech fandom these days. I must admit, now that almost all of the decent people have gone from RobotechX, I have no qualms at all about sitting back and having a laugh as RobotechX rapidly becomes a ghost town, leaving MEMO nobody to preach to but himself and Maverick_LSC.

I'm not entirely sure, but I THINK what he said was meant to be both an attempt to portray me as some kind of unreasonable radical spreading discord through the fandom (no surprise he's butthurt that at least half a dozen of his site's most active members are boycotting RobotechX after his perma-banning of me and his promise to unban Doug Bendo), and to portray the average Robotech fan as something other than ignorant and determined to scourge unbelievers from their ranks.

Here's a good fan definition for those lunatic robotech fans like Memo: 'Yunie-Maceckchistic' or alternatively 'Yunie-Macekist'

Y'know, I actually posted something like this a few pages back... a joking definition of Robotech fans as being "Sadomacekistic"...

If it was that simple, I don't think RT fandom would be divided 3 or 4 different ways as it is now. Lately, and this isn't just my assumption, but Macross Purist has become anyone that doesn't believe in the status quo of the site.

Exactly right. For at least the last two years, Robotech fans have been using "Macross Purist" to mean any person who doesn't believe that the current state of affairs and/or the current handling of the franchise is practically perfect in every way. As with my previous explanation, the implication behind it is that no TRUE fan of Robotech would find anything objectionable about things as they are, so anyone who complains or voices a dissenting opinion MUST be a Macross fan trying to ruin everybody's good time.

I think the times and things people have shown to become most critical about Robotech are 1)HG itself, 2)Absurb fan actions, and 3)Lies, half truths, and misinformation.

Don't expect HIM to understand that... this is MEMO you're talking to. Along with Doug Bendo and Pizza the Hutt, he set the gold standard for absurd fan behavior, and he's always been one of the main people spreading the lies, half-truths, and blatant misinformation.

NOW ME PETE SAYING SOMETHING...although not in Grimlock voice:

I shall endeavor to contain my disappointment.

[Seto Kaiba]

Cont'd from previous post...

I would take this opportunity to note that the most important thing is not WHAT he wrote but WHERE he wrote it.

He could have written that on Robotech.com - instead, he joined us to write it here.

That's good. That means he's open to talking.

Frankly, I think you're giving him far too much credit. Did MEMO stick around to discuss his argument? No. Did he even offer justification for his statements? No. He did what he has ALWAYS done... he made a drive-by post where he simply stated his opinion as though it were fact, and, having "laid down the law", took off. He could have chosen to write that over on RT.com, but who would have bothered to read it? That site has MAYBE two dozen active members, and most of them don't give a damn about any part of the site except the off-topic section. That he posted it here means nothing other than that he found what we had to say disturbing enough to his comfortable little Robotech fantasy world that he had to speak up, and that he thinks he has the right and the authority to simply TELL us how it is and how it's going to be and that we'll have no choice but to accept what he says as the gospel truth.

And his latest line of thought is to try and weasel RT's lame excuse for itself into the realm of MW, so that he can be seen as someone who's attempted to bridge the gap between the two fandoms. Believe me, folks, he has no altruistic reason behind his methods.

You have done well... my not-so-young apprentice... *ditches the ominous black robe*

No kidding... I'll eat my hat if MEMO has ever done anything without some ulterior personal gain-based motive. It's not exactly a secret that he's been doing what little he actually does for the Robotech fandom in hopes that he would land a job at Harmony Gold... and he's done some seriously batshit crazy stuff that most of us wouldn't even consider, and that's not counting some of the things he's done TO the fanbase.

So I say - let's not get into a pissing fight with him since he has come here and started posting in MW. Let's treat him like any other member.

[...]

Well - he showed up and he's posting. He's always going to be MEMO - nobody ever said he can't be. The problem was that he didn't seem to want to let Seto be Seto, and you be you etc.

[...]

I think it would be better if we made him feel welcome, if he stuck around and if we all became friends.

[...]

And I honestly think Memo might just be a little bored of being lonely and having nobody to talk to.

Altruism's a nice thing to ponder idly, but it doesn't work very well in the real world Pete. Why should the people who've been repeatedly wronged by this deluded egomaniac have to give him another chance to plant a knife in their backs or even treat him with civility? He certainly didn't extend any of them the same courtesy when it was in his power to do so. He told them his word was law, his opinion was fact, and he would tolerate no contradiction of either. Not only did he act to censor perfectly legitimate expression, he attacked people after doing so, to twist the knife. MEMO doesn't want to let people be themselves, he wants everyone dancing to HIS tune and he's provided ample proof that he has nothing but contempt for the thoughts and opinions of others. Ultimately, the only thing MEMO has even shown that he wants is a pulpit from which he can preach his views as fact, and a (literally) captive audience to preach to, all in the name of being recognized for his efforts by Harmony Gold.

I couldn't possibly care less if MEMO is bored with being lonely and having nobody to talk to but himself. He has nobody to blame for his loneliness but himself. It came about solely as the result of his actions against his fellow fans. He has made his bed, now let him sleep in it. I see no reason to take pity on him, or to give him yet another chance to abuse others.

MEMO is purposefully obfuscating the truth, constantly regurgitating things that simply aren't true. I don't want to hold personal grudges or doubt particular individuals, but I wouldn't trust MEMO as far as I could throw him, and throwing him even the slightest distance would have to be some kind of Herculean poo given the distance between Australia and America.

That's been MEMO's MO from the beginning... I've heard from a great many Spanish-speaking fans all about how when the Robotech fanbase was first getting established in Central and South America, MEMO landed himself an interview on some two-bit radio show and the first thing he did was made it sound as though the entire thing was his handiwork. I think it somewhat dishonest of him to take credit for RobotechX too... because most of that isn't his handiwork either, it's mainly operated and maintained by SIGHUP. His excesses of fabrication and obfuscation in the Macross legal debate threads on Robotech.com and RobotechX were just the latest in a long string of deliberate attempts to conceal the truth, not only from other fans, but from himself as well.

[RedWolf]

Oh please guys Memo is just obviously trolling.

Login->Post a nonsensical comment->Log out->Watch the felgercarb-storm

Just put him on ignore. In the end Memo's an insignificant person. He knows it too.

[Seto Kaiba]

Oh please guys Memo is just obviously trolling.

Login->Post a nonsensical comment->Log out->Watch the felgercarb-storm

Just put him on ignore. In the end Memo's an insignificant person. He knows it too.

Wisdom.

[Rossi]

I certainly will refrain from pretending to know more about the Macross franchise than I really do. Beyond the original series, DYRL, Macross II, Macross Plus, and what little I've seen of Frontier, I know very little about the "culture" surrounding the expanded worlds of Macross. I know and care even less about the legal issues surrounding both shows. All I'll say about that is this... Shouldn't Macross fans, who are upset about the existence of Robotech, direct their animosity away from Robotech fans and more towards the company willing to sell the rights to Macross away to Carl Macek in the first place? Again, I'm not trying to come off as anyone that fully researched the big picture, it's just something that I've always casually pondered.

If I had to categorize myself (which I don't, but seems to be the popular thing to do), I guess I would be a Robotech fan. I am definitely much more of a visible presence on the Robotech.com boards, anyway. I am certainly more familiar with the three Robotech "generations"... I will say, however, that I am always very impressed with how knowledgeable and (usually) entertaining the discussions and debates are at Macrossworld.com... For the most part, people on these boards are well-informed and do their best to present ideas in a constructive manner. This thread, especially, tends to entertain and even educate the masses (including me, obviously) as to the bigger issues that serious fans of both series find important.

In short, thanks for the entertaining read. Any responses are certainly welcomed, and, yes, I will stick around and respond when necessary!

[Seto Kaiba]

All I'll say about that is this... Shouldn't Macross fans, who are upset about the existence of Robotech, direct their animosity away from Robotech fans and more towards the company willing to sell the rights to Macross away to Carl Macek in the first place?

I think you may have picked up a few misunderstandings along the way... while there are some Macross fans who take the extreme view that Robotech itself is offensive, most Macross fans are generally indifferent towards the Robotech franchise as a whole. What little genuine animosity can be found in this thread is generally directed mainly towards Harmony Gold, who are the ones using sleazebag business practices to keep almost all of Macross out of the hands of western audiences. There's little point in getting angry at Tatsunoko for licensing it to Harmony Gold, since by in large they're not actually doing anything to actually hinder Macross. It's not even really worth it to get worked up over Harmony Gold, since their blocking Macross imports has been the status quo for ages, there are a multitude of readily available ways to work around the problem, and they're running their Robotech franchise into the ground anyway. The whole legal debate has been effectively over for so long that most of what we do here is commentary on the foibles and follies of Harmony Gold and the Robotech fanbase and the various "spokesmen" who give it a bad name.

Edited December 10, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[RedWolf]

snip~

You're right... You don't know squat about what the thread is about.

Go to the very first page of this thread you'll get the facts.

If you didn't notice a lot who posted here are and were Robotech fans. The difference between here and Robotech.com forum you can speak you're mind and back up your argumentation with documented facts.

HG has time and again shown bad business practices. Like stopping Macross imports. Even if it is plain as day they do not own the Macross franchise they act as if they do.

Not to say the least its founder CEO Frank Agrama was at least charged in Italy for Tax Fraud, embezzlement, and false accounting. Worst HG does not have a spark of creativity. When things go sour HG blame others than taking responsibility in their Robotech franchise. Their customer service as said by Robotech fans sucks.

Another example of insincerity towards fans is allowing some unworthy people to be moderators in their official forums. This ruins their corporate image further.

Also on another front HG also tries to profit from somebody else's production by threat of lawsuit such as with Mech Warrior 5/IGN fiasco.

Fortunate this not 4chan's /m/. Where if someone posts Robotech they are torn to shreds.

[Funkenstein]

I certainly will refrain from pretending to know more about the Macross franchise than I really do. Beyond the original series, DYRL, Macross II, Macross Plus, and what little I've seen of Frontier, I know very little about the "culture" surrounding the expanded worlds of Macross. I know and care even less about the legal issues surrounding both shows. All I'll say about that is this... Shouldn't Macross fans, who are upset about the existence of Robotech, direct their animosity away from Robotech fans and more towards the company willing to sell the rights to Macross away to Carl Macek in the first place? Again, I'm not trying to come off as anyone that fully researched the big picture, it's just something that I've always casually pondered.

If I had to categorize myself (which I don't, but seems to be the popular thing to do), I guess I would be a Robotech fan. I am definitely much more of a visible presence on the Robotech.com boards, anyway. I am certainly more familiar with the three Robotech "generations"... I will say, however, that I am always very impressed with how knowledgeable and (usually) entertaining the discussions and debates are at Macrossworld.com... For the most part, people on these boards are well-informed and do their best to present ideas in a constructive manner. This thread, especially, tends to entertain and even educate the masses (including me, obviously) as to the bigger issues that serious fans of both series find important.

In short, thanks for the entertaining read. Any responses are certainly welcomed, and, yes, I will stick around and respond when necessary!

Robotech fans can care less about the licensing issues. But imagine if Robotech was in the same situation as Macross, would you not be angry too? Like Seto said, most people here don't have a problem with Robotech, they have major problems with Harmony Gold, not only for keeping Macross products out (especially Macross toys) but also mishandling Robotech like some kind of retarded ape. Just look at RT , its been 5 years since the last animation, and it will probably 5 more years till the next. And the delays have done nothing to make the new animations any better, especially when compared to Macross.

[Rossi]

I think you may have picked up a few misunderstandings along the way... while there are some Macross fans who take the extreme view that Robotech itself is offensive, most Macross fans are generally indifferent towards the Robotech franchise as a whole.

Fair enough. As I said before, I certainly don't pretend to be an expert on the topic. Would it be safe to say that quite a few of the Macross fans in this thread, yourself included, have a less-than-favorable view of Robotech fans, however? I would agree that most of the comments here tend to be only slightly condescending when speaking of the Robotech series, but, when it comes to the fans, people are coming off as downright nasty. Perhaps this is directed at a few "radical" Robotech.com members only, but there have been a few generalizations thrown out there that seem a bit silly... Entertaining, to be sure, but silly...

Correction: Your (Seto's) comments tend to be directed at specific, perhaps ignorant or over-zealous, members... Apologies!

Edited December 10, 2009 by Rossi

[MEMO1DOMINION]

VFTF1

Translation:

ROBOTECH FAN DEFINITION BY A MACROSS FAN

(INSERT SETO'S COLLECTION OF WORDS TO USER NAME HERE)

Meaning: The Definition of a Robotech fan according a Macross fan is whatever Seto says it is.

MACROSS FAN DEFINITION BY A ROBOTECH FAN

MACROSS PURIST (REGARDLESS USER NAME)

Meaning: The definition of a Macross fan by a Robotech fan is "Macross Purist."

AND THEN THE REGULAR ROBOTECH/MACROSS FAN

DON'T GET INVOLVED MUCH PAST A PURIST ON BOTH SIDES

Meaning: People who like Macross AND Robotech don't get involved with the radicals on either side as defined above (aka Seto is a radical "purist" just like Robotech fans who hate Macross are radical Robotech purists).

NOW ME PETE SAYING SOMETHING...although not in Grimlock voice:

I disagree.

I don't think Seto is a radical purist, and I actually don't think that this distinction between "regular Robotech/Macross fans" vs. the radical purists of Macross and the Radical purists of Robotech holds much weight.

Why?

Because the "regular Robotech/Macross fan" seems to presume that this mean is the desired norm. It presumes there's no tension between Macross and Robotech.

But there is tension.

And I'm not talking about political tension between Robotech.com and MW people in this thread or between Seto and you guys.

Nope.

I'm talking about tension between the original Japanese SDFM TV Macross and Robotech. They are in tension with eachother because they use the same footage to tell two different stories.

Macross fans prefer the original story.

Robotech fans prefer the story that was created on the basis of the footage, which is not the original story of Macross.

I believe any attempt to hide this tension under the misty and general vague moniker of "Robotech/Macross fan" does a disservice to...Macross.

It's a disservice to Macross because it makes it seem like there's no big deal, it's just a cool story with transforming jets flying around.

But there's so much more to Macross, and seems to be so much less to Robotech, that to artificially tie the two in some happy "mean between extremes" is actually just belittling Macross in favor of Robotech - making it seem like Macross is a tolerable part of the amazing whole that is Robotech - that the two can co-exist.

Yet in the end - if you're honest - the question of "which is better and why?" is bound to arise since the two are so different.

I agree that it's senseless for the two sides to run away into their extremist camps and not talk to eachother - that's silly and counter productive.

But the problem really arises when they DO try to talk. Inevitably - the Macross side starts giving concrete examples of why Macross is better - examples that hold a lot of logic and passion in them.

Meanwhile, Robotech gives us something like that "Top 10 reasons" list from Topless Robot that we laughed at a couple pages back.

And it seems Robotech can't do any better than that.

Pete

EXACTLY!! THANKS VFTF1

EXCEPT ABOUT SETO. I DONT SEE HIM BEING THE HEAD OF THE GROUP OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT. BUT HE DOES HAVE AN EXTENDED OF BAD WORDS IN EVERY POST TOWARDS A ROBOTECH FAN. AND FANS NOTICE THROUGH HIS POST HE LIKES TO THROWN IN A FEW THERE WHILE TRYING TO PROVE A POINT. SINCE HE WAS DOING IT THE MOST IN RT.COM, RTX, AND ESPECIALLY HERE. WHICH MADE HIM AN EASY BAN. ESPECIALLY IN A PAGE THAT I AM MORE INVOLVED WITH.

NOW UNLIKE JASONC, AND WHY I GET ALONG WITH THIS GUY, IS BECAUSE HE MIGHT HAVE THE SAME FEELING LIKE SETO, HE IS JUST MORE.....CIVIL ABOUT HOW HE COMMUNICATES THROUGH HIS POSTS.

ARE ROBOTECH FANS BETTER BECAUSE WE DON'T CALL OUT NAMES? NO

AND ACTUALLY, DON'T KNOW WHERE OR WHEN WAS THAT FIRST CAME UP BUT IT HAS BEEN THE NORM SINCE WAY BACK TO CALL A MACROSS FAN PURIST NOT ONLY WHEN "talking about tension between the original Japanese SDFM TV Macross and Robotech." BUT SEEING POST OF THAT LIKE SETO.

AT RTX IT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN A PROBLEM BUT HE DOES LIKE THOSE POSTS FOR SOME REASON WHICH START FIGHTS.

FOR NOT POSTING HERE, I NOTICED AFTER A WHILE WHEN THERE IS GOOD DISCUSSION, SOMEHOW OR SOMEWAY SOMEONE LIKES TO POST A "MAV OR MEMO" FOLLOWED WITH POST THAT ARE LIKE SETO. YOU COULD READ BACK AND JUST READ ALONG AND ALL IT TAKES IS THAT ONE POST TO DERAIL A DISCUSSION AT HAND. WHY ITS HARD TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS THREAD WITH FRIENDS THAT I KNOW. BUT I GUESS AS LONG AS IT'S KEPT IN HERE IT'S ALRIGHT.

AND SINCE MY LAST APPEARANCE I ONLY ASK FOR ONE THING THAT IS PART OF THIS THREAD.

[MEMO1DOMINION]

J

That term Robotech purist is a funny term, very contradictive in its title. Anyways...

THAT'S THE THING. THE CONTRADICTION IS DIFFERENT BY EVERY FAN ON HOW THEY USE IT. THAT IT COULD MEAN MANY THINGS.

[Seto Kaiba]

Fair enough. As I said before, I certainly don't pretend to be an expert on the topic.

But you can be! For the low low price of the few minutes of your time it'll take to go back to read the first couple of posts at the beginning of this thread and the last one! I guarantee you do yourself no favors by trying to pass judgment on those participating in this thread without actually reading and making an effort to understand the topic.

Would it be safe to say that quite a few of the Macross fans in this thread, yourself included, have a less-than-favorable view of Robotech fans, however? I would agree that most of the comments here tend to be only slightly condescending when speaking of the Robotech series, but, when it comes to the fans, people are coming off as downright nasty.

Please refer to my remarks above about trying to pass judgment without having actually reading and understanding the topic. In the interest of brevity, let me explain something to you...

Just as many Macross fans couldn't be prevailed upon to give a tinker's damn about Robotech one way or the other, many Macross fans have no strong feelings either way when it comes to Robotech fans. Every now and again some Robotech fan will come here and annoy people by treating Macross and Robotech as though they were interchangeable, or running off at the mouth about things they don't understand, so being a Robotech fan might carry a bit of a negative connotation around here, but most people don't care. In order for an individual RT fan to be singled out for criticism here, they would have to do something spectacularly ignorant or offensive (usually both) or something that reflects poorly on the entire Robotech fandom. Needless to say, such individuals are fairly rare, and probably less than half a dozen have been mentioned in the last three or four threads combined. We DO also comment on the general state of affairs in the fandom and particularly the bizarre tendency to persecute each other that so very many Robotech fans have been exhibiting recently and at various points in the past. If you are who I think you are, you've been on RT.com since '01, and you should know full well exactly what a mess the rapidly shrinking Robotech fanbase has become.

[MEMO1DOMINION]

SETO

Just as many Macross fans couldn't be prevailed upon to give a tinker's damn about Robotech one way or the other, many Macross fans have no strong feelings either way when it comes to Robotech fans. Every now and again some Robotech fan will come here and annoy people by treating Macross and Robotech as though they were interchangeable, or running off at the mouth about things they don't understand, so being a Robotech fan might carry a bit of a negative connotation around here, but most people don't care. In order for an individual RT fan to be singled out for criticism here, they would have to do something spectacularly ignorant or offensive (usually both) or something that reflects poorly on the entire Robotech fandom. Needless to say, such individuals are fairly rare, and probably less than half a dozen have been mentioned in the last three or four threads combined. We DO also comment on the general state of affairs in the fandom and particularly the bizarre tendency to persecute each other that so very many Robotech fans have been exhibiting recently and at various points in the past. If you are who I think you are, you've been on RT.com since '01, and you should know full well exactly what a mess the rapidly shrinking Robotech fanbase has become.

MY POINT WHY I SKIP POST LIKE THESE AND READ ON WITH OTHERS.