HG and Robotech Debates

[VFTF1]

Apparently my influence is such that I can lead the host around by the nose and make him say whatever I want

But this is actually true.

Let me elaborate one why it is that you are now a Cult leader.

Every time you write something about Macross or Robotech, you write clearly, you give reasons, you cite sources, and you then give your conclusions, trying to present them logically.

If someone were to disagree with you, they would have to refute your reasons, shed doubt on your sources, negate your conclusions, and present this counte-view logically.

However - since none of the Robotech people ever write clearly, give reasons, cite sources or argue their conclusions logically, they are incapable of mounting any sort of effective counter-argument.

Therefore - they believe that ANYBODY who gives reasons, cites source and presents logical conclusions is using MAGIC.

Seto Magic.

It's the mystical cult magic of Setoism. It builds an impenetrable wall around opinions by buffering them with reason, logic, sources, fact-checking, and - worst of all - generally good writing skills.

Anyone whose writing uses these things is therefore clearly a cultist.

There don't necessarily have to be any back-and-forth letters demonstrating how you give people orde3rs or talking points.

Rather - people see your methodology and for some batsh!t reason are attracted to it.

If only you would stop posting your knowledge, then Robotech fans could go back to living in a hazy world where "anime" means Star Trek, only in cartoon form, and 'Japanese anime' means pornography with gay people and pre-pubescent girls.

See - the easiest way to defeat you would be to refute your arguments.

But since they can't do that, they ban you.

And since you won't go away and are persistent, then they must label you a cult leader and all of us your followers because otherwise they would actually have to confront your writings.

Pete

[Robelwell202]

Story Time, folks...

A long time ago (Roughly a year and some change), in a galaxy far, far away (Northwest Washington State, in the seattle area, to be precise), there lived a fan of Robotech. He'd seen it as a child, and thought moderately good things about it, although not nearly as fanatical as some people have.

This man, called Robelwell202, had a particular appreciation for a mighty destroid, the Tomahawk, and he'd had it since childhood, when he saw it on a flier inside a 'Robotech Defenders' model kit some 25 years ago.

Our hero, Robelwell202, had thought about the idea of driving one of these mighty robotic machines. He did so over the span of these 25 years. Sometimes, he'd think heavily, and then there would be some times that he wouldn't think about it at all. After all, big robots with guns? That's silly.

Some time ago, oour hero got the idea to write a story about these big war machines. Being as Robelwell202 was, for a time, a long-haul over-the-road trucker, he had lots of time to think, and no female companionship to distract him. He began working details for this story out, and yes, he spent many an hour, and many a mile thinking.

Now comes the time when Robelwell202 discovers 'Internet Forums', and the lively and honest (HAH!) discussions therein. He finds a site, Robotech.com, and starts asking questions. Some of his questions are laughed at, since it's obvious that no one cares about destroids, and he was obviously a defective person. However, some of his questions do get answers, and Robelwell202 is well on his way to beginning his litterary epic!

Not long ago, Robelwell202 had become something of a wierd figure amongst all these Internet Forums. His story had become something of a small milestone in the phenomena known as RT-Fandom, and there were even a few people that liked it. Still, our hero Robelwell202 had developed certain friendships over the time he spent on this new-fangled thing called the internet.

His firends had opened a doorway, a portal to a magical place called 'Macross'. Robelwell202 was stunnned! Robelwell202 was amazed! Here was everything he'd ever hoped for in a big-robot anime, without the bullshit content that Robotech contained. Robelwell202 began soaking up as much of this thing called 'Macross' as he could, lest it go out of style tomorrow.

But, in all his exploration, Robelwell had not partaken of the original series, a holy thing that was known to priests and peasants alike as 'SDF:Macross', for Robelwell202 had said that he'd seen the Robotech version enough times.

Then, the holy cult leader SetoKaiba came down from on high (Actually, through MSN-Messenger) and said "Verily, thou art ignorant in the art of Macross. To be a true follower of mine, thou must divest your ignorant ways, and partake of SDF:Macross. Yea, it is a 'cut above' that tripe you have seen before. This series actually makes sense!"

Robelwell202 was skeptical, though. He'd been dazzled and amazed by Macross Frontier, he'd been totally confused and migraned by Macross 7, and yes, he'd reached the holy high-place of DYRL, but... how different could SDF:MAcross be from Robotech's Macross Saga?

SetoKaiba looked down on the lowly, ignorant fool, and said "Verily, for if thou does not artake of SDF:Macross, I shall kick thy ass all over the place! (Not really folks, I'm rolling the dramatic effects for all I can get.) Watch it!"

So, reluctantly, Robelwell202 began watching SDF:Macross, and a holy light bloomed in his head. "Holy crap!" Robelwell202 said. "This DOES make sense!"

Story time's over.

[VFTF1]

Thank you for that heart moving story Brother Robelwell202!! Now let's sing some of that good ol' time religion music!! PRAISE THE NAME OF OUR WISE LEADER SETO!

Out of the emptiness, Salvation! (Salvation!)

Rhythm and light and sound

It 'twas the Rock & Roll creation

It 'twas a terrible big bang

It 'twas the ultimate mutation

Ying was searching for his yang

And he looked and he saw that it was good

When I'm alone beneath the stars and feeling insignificant

I turn within to see the forces that created me

I look to the stars and the answer is clear

I look in the mirror and see what I fear

It 'tis the Rock & Roll creation

It 'tis the absolute rebirth

It 'tis the rolling of the ocean

And the rocking of the earth

And I looked and I saw that it was good

Pete

Officially Announcing that Spinal Tap does the religious music in our Seto Cult

[Marzan]

I've read several good reasons to join the Seto cult but so far only one truly compelling one...

Pictures of girls dressed up as Ishtar!!!

Make me a believer!!!

[Robelwell202]

I've read several good reasons to join the Seto cult but so far only one truly compelling one...

Pictures of girls dressed up as Ishtar!!!

Make me a believer!!!

Yeah... I think a lot of us guys are waiting for that holy grail... and will continue to wait. :/

[VFTF1]

All I can say is - if my girlfriend wanted to dress up as a girl from Macross II, I'd probably become a Macross II fan a lot faster ...

Anyways - we're off topic, aren't we?? Shouldn't we be bashing Robotech??

Here's my contribution to that effort:

I've been reading Robotech.com on and off lately - far more than I ever did, thanks to this thread. And as I read the threads there I get the feeling I am reading ONE familiar thread from Macrossworld...which one? The Newbie thread.

I see clearly the wisdom of having a newbie thread so that people who like Macross can discuss things about it without having to stop every five seconds to clarify basic things.

Robotech.com looks like all of the threads are newbie threads ... Case in point:

I enter the "macross southernpedia" forum, which is - according to the forum tag discusses: "Topics on the original Japanese Macross, Southern Cross, Mospeada"

And therein I find somebody asks a question about a Destroid in Macross (without giving an episode number where the particular animation he's talking about occured - but fine, we'll let that slide)... [here's the thread I'm about to rant on: http://www.robotech.com/community/forum/re...&forumid=24]

Other people start discussing this particular point and the issue of the extent to which UN Spacey controled the militaries of the world etc etc.

Then, somebody says, matter-of-factly:

That way its easier to explain why, although so many Zentraedi ended up on earth, they didn't overun the entire planet. Individual militaries stepped up to stop them before they could and it would fall in line to some degree, I think, with the creation of the Armies of the Southern Cross.

Nani!?!

I thought this was a topic dedicated to the original Macross, Mospedia and Southern Cross. HOW then can someone answer a question about a Destroid in Macross by referencing what happened to Zendradi after the battle with Boldoza and tying that in with "the creation of the Armies of the Southern Cross."

Normally - you'd expect somebody to step in and say "wrong anime buddy."

But then I realize that he's not talking about a Destroid in MACROSS having the word "US Army" written on its' leg - which I don't recall either...no...it's this:

On a Robotech DVD from Legacy Box set 3 the Tomhawk destroid has US Army written on its leg.

It's on the cover of a Robotech DVD!! WTF!!

So - you open a thread in the Macross/Mospedia/Southern Cross section dedicated to a question about the animation on a Robotech DVD box --- and nobody tells you to take it to the Robotech forum??

Instead - they apparently think that THIS CONSTITUTES A DISCUSSION OF MACROSS! Because - you know -Macross is part of Robotech. It's the Macross Sage. So we're discussing the original Macross - DUH!

....

Moving on...

Well... dag. Not much to see. It's like most of the threads that have more than 10 posts are of somebody asking a question like "So, in Robotech the Protoculture is a flower, and in Macross it's a theory of evolution?" and then SETO having to explain things to people

Anyways - there. I'm back on topic at least!

Pete

[Einherjar]

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...st&p=811512

Friendship, eh? There are various sides to every action.

Edited December 8, 2009 by Einherjar

[VFTF1]

Well - I am not going to comment because I am an ocean away, won't be at the con unless zillions of dollars rain down from the sky making getting an airplane ticket to California in 2010 feasable and realistic, not to mention hotel, food, renting a car, lodgings etc etc - which is so unrealistic that there's no point in even dreaming it...

That said -

BACK TO READING MW EPISODE RECAP OF M7

Is this the thread I opened? If so - MEMO YOU ARE INVITED TO NOT JUST READ THE EPISODE RECAP THREAD BUT TO WATCH THE EPISODES AND POST YOUR THOUGHTS.

I know I made fun of you in this thread - but it would be against my Bassara-religion to be an ass an not want to have you feel the power of his awesome music or at least share you views and experience of it.

I'm not going to comment on anything else because what's done is done re: Seto's being banned etc. Thankfully we have Macrossworld where there is true freedom of speech - even for Robotech fans, with the only requirement being that Robotech is kept to this thread). All hail the mods/admins for that.

Beyond that - since people are likely to comment about this - I will say this:

There is a moderator at MW who often makes a great point - Roy Focker - he likes to say "Yeah, this is the internet, and that means that what we say here is extremely important!!" - which of course is his way of sarcastically pointing out that we're just casually sitting in relaxing chairs and bitching at eachother.

Not to belittle the reasons for the bitching but if a dude steps up and takes interest in Macross 7 - I'm all for burrying a lot of hatchets.

If it helps Memo - I apologize if my making fun of you offended you - I was doing it as a joke - but if you did take offense - gomene.

Come join us in the Macross 7 thread.

Pete

[Jasonc]

That was big of you Pete...really...

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...st&p=811512

In regards to this, I responded. While the idea could be interesting, it seems very one-sided. It's like we'd be invited to a Robotech convention at our expense, at the expense of bringing our stuff, and being thrown a bone to host a Macross panel. In all the years I've gone to MWcons, it's been solely about Macross, and everything related to it. I'm also not big on the idea of mixing it with AX. When I go to AX, I go to AX to shop and walk around, not really to only talk about Macross. Now, if we could get Mikimoto or the Hory Froating Head to show, that'd be different, but seperating the cons gives some people a time to get those that go to SDCC and AX money to save to come back to MW. What do you guys think? Am I alone in feeling this?

[Robelwell202]

Damn, Pete...

Couldn't you have, at least, invited him to something good? Like Frontier, maybe?

[Einherjar]

What do you guys think? Am I alone in feeling this?

HG could milk it for publicity on their site if they were invited, because it has the potential to increase attendance to the event, interest in their show, and relevance in the industry(s) thanks to the timing of the 25th anniversary.

Edited December 8, 2009 by Einherjar

[Jasonc]

HG could milk it for publicity on their site if they were invited, because it has the potential in increase attendance to the event, interest in the show, and relevance in the industry thanks to the timing of the 25th anniversary.

Yeah, that too. Again, it adds to the one-sided proposal. While I do like the first 85 of Robotech, I don't support the B.S. that it's become, and I'd rather not have to incorporate, or associate Macross with Robotech anymore than it is. Could it be that they just don't have the gusto to have big gatherings anymore? They never really invited MW fans to anything, and although the invitation does seem to come with a bag of alterior motives, it's interesting that MW would be asked to a Robotech thing to have our con there. Strange.

[VFTF1]

Damn, Pete...

Couldn't you have, at least, invited him to something good? Like Frontier, maybe?

Heh heh Well - good point from the point of view of those who consider M7 torture

I could see where I failed to meet the Godfather criteria of an offer he couldn't refuse Dear Memo - please choose: a) I keep making fun of you, b) you join our discussion of Macross 7 ... talk about being given the choice between a rock and a hard place

They never really invited MW fans to anything, and although the invitation does seem to come with a bag of alterior motives, it's interesting that MW would be asked to a Robotech thing to have our con there. Strange.

Not really strange.

Ready the last 37 pages of this thread and calculate how much of it was assing around like I do and how much of it was some serious attempts at discussing Robotech. The proportions will show, I am confident, that even though most people here at MW are critical towards Robotech, the level of criticism is interesting enough to be able to proclaim that Macross World has one of the most vibrant Robotech discussion boards on the internet today.

Scary huh?

Pete

[Freiflug88]

I'd also promise pictures of my ex in her Ishtar costume, if only she'd stop being so damn uptight about it.

So this you and your ex?

[Seto Kaiba]

Every time you write something about Macross or Robotech, you write clearly, you give reasons, you cite sources, and you then give your conclusions, trying to present them logically. If someone were to disagree with you, they would have to refute your reasons, shed doubt on your sources, negate your conclusions, and present this counter-view logically. However - since none of the Robotech people ever write clearly, give reasons, cite sources or argue their conclusions logically, they are incapable of mounting any sort of effective counter-argument.

Therefore - they believe that ANYBODY who gives reasons, cites source and presents logical conclusions is using MAGIC.

Oh, there are still a few Robotech fans out there who are capable of forming a cogent counterargument and clearly expressing it in a forum post. The problem is that those few intelligent, well-informed people are a small and shrinking minority in the Robotech fanbase because they know enough to see that Robotech is going nowhere, and by their very nature they distrust the Harmony Gold hype machine. It's no surprise that it's next to impossible to get even an approximation of intelligent discussion from "mainstream" Robotech fans now that the fanbase is largely made up of Robotech purists like MEMO who can't even remember what saga "Dana Sterling" is from, and card-carrying lunatic fringe nutjobs like Doug Bendo who think that their opinion is law and desperately want someone to take them seriously. I guess it's no surprise that my own particular brand of well-reasoned, research-supported arguments would be unassailable to most of them... after all, the Robotech fanbase is in the hands of people who couldn't spell their own names if you handed them the pen and wrote half the letters for them.

If only you would stop posting your knowledge, then Robotech fans could go back to living in a hazy world where "anime" means Star Trek, only in cartoon form, and 'Japanese anime' means pornography with gay people and pre-pubescent girls.

It's not JUST me... everyone who disagrees with ignorant, self-appointed "authorities" like MEMO and Doug Bendo is labeled a Macross Purist or Macross Groupie regardless of whether or not they've even SEEN Macross, which has led to many of the remaining intelligent Robotech fans being labeled Macross Purists by the idiot brigade and lately, being called my disciples, flunkies, yes-men, etc.

Robotech is a franchise that survives primarily on the ignorance of its fans, so I guess it's no surprise that that ignorance extends to their knowledge of Robotech itself.

I've been reading Robotech.com on and off lately - far more than I ever did, thanks to this thread. And as I read the threads there I get the feeling I am reading ONE familiar thread from Macrossworld...which one? The Newbie thread.

Robotech.com looks like all of the threads are newbie threads

Most of the threads on Robotech.com are WORSE than the newbie thread, because without the few well-informed fans most information request threads and debates have turned into excuses for wanna-be experts to try and bullshit their way into notoriety. It's not just that they keep having to rehash basic things, it's that they many of them aren't even aware of those basic things.

Could it be that they just don't have the gusto to have big gatherings anymore?

That's certainly likely... just look at what Harmony Gold's doing for the 25th... NOTHING.

invitation does seem to come with a bag of ulterior motives, it's interesting that MW would be asked to a Robotech thing to have our con there. Strange.

It's MEMO asking, so the first logical assumption to make is that he wants to use it to claim he has clout over here on MacrossWorld so he can continue pretending people give a damn about his misinformed, misguided opinions, and so he can continue hoping that Harmony Gold will give him a job if he keeps working for them for free.

So this you and your ex?

Nope... though I can't shake the feeling that I've seen that guy somewhere before. He looks kinda like a professor I know. My ex's costume was Ishtar's emulator suit, which she made from a sheer body stocking and a black swimsuit. I've been trying to get her to let me scan and upload some photos of it, but she's always put the kibosh on it because she's camera-shy and the suit leaves NOTHING to the imagination.

[Beltane70]

I've been reading Robotech.com on and off lately - far more than I ever did, thanks to this thread. And as I read the threads there I get the feeling I am reading ONE familiar thread from Macrossworld...which one? The Newbie thread.

I see clearly the wisdom of having a newbie thread so that people who like Macross can discuss things about it without having to stop every five seconds to clarify basic things.

Robotech.com looks like all of the threads are newbie threads ... Case in point:

I enter the "macross southernpedia" forum, which is - according to the forum tag discusses: "Topics on the original Japanese Macross, Southern Cross, Mospeada"

And therein I find somebody asks a question about a Destroid in Macross (without giving an episode number where the particular animation he's talking about occured - but fine, we'll let that slide)... [here's the thread I'm about to rant on: http://www.robotech.com/community/forum/re...&forumid=24]

Other people start discussing this particular point and the issue of the extent to which UN Spacey controled the militaries of the world etc etc.

Then, somebody says, matter-of-factly:

Nani!?!

I thought this was a topic dedicated to the original Macross, Mospedia and Southern Cross. HOW then can someone answer a question about a Destroid in Macross by referencing what happened to Zendradi after the battle with Boldoza and tying that in with "the creation of the Armies of the Southern Cross."

Normally - you'd expect somebody to step in and say "wrong anime buddy."

But then I realize that he's not talking about a Destroid in MACROSS having the word "US Army" written on its' leg - which I don't recall either...no...it's this:

It's on the cover of a Robotech DVD!! WTF!!

So - you open a thread in the Macross/Mospedia/Southern Cross section dedicated to a question about the animation on a Robotech DVD box --- and nobody tells you to take it to the Robotech forum??

Instead - they apparently think that THIS CONSTITUTES A DISCUSSION OF MACROSS! Because - you know -Macross is part of Robotech. It's the Macross Sage. So we're discussing the original Macross - DUH!

....

Moving on...

Well... dag. Not much to see. It's like most of the threads that have more than 10 posts are of somebody asking a question like "So, in Robotech the Protoculture is a flower, and in Macross it's a theory of evolution?" and then SETO having to explain things to people

Anyways - there. I'm back on topic at least!

Pete

For shame Pete, not mentioning me as the sensible poster in that thread!

The US ARMY Destroid in question appeared in episode 31, "Satan Doll". The topic starter asked if it was ever explained in the original Macross why that particualr Destroyed said US ARMY on it.

I almost commented about the mention of Southern Cross in a Macross thread, but was too lazy to actually correct the poster's statement.

[Einherjar]

Yeah, that too. Again, it adds to the one-sided proposal. While I do like the first 85 of Robotech, I don't support the B.S. that it's become, and I'd rather not have to incorporate, or associate Macross with Robotech anymore than it is. Could it be that they just don't have the gusto to have big gatherings anymore? They never really invited MW fans to anything, and although the invitation does seem to come with a bag of alterior motives, it's interesting that MW would be asked to a Robotech thing to have our con there. Strange.

Exactly, I would have some reservations about potentially having my image and anything I bought/made/showcased at the event being used as promotional material for something I don't believe in... wait...

[BeyondTheGrave]

In regards to this, I responded. While the idea could be interesting, it seems very one-sided. It's like we'd be invited to a Robotech convention at our expense, at the expense of bringing our stuff, and being thrown a bone to host a Macross panel. In all the years I've gone to MWcons, it's been solely about Macross, and everything related to it. I'm also not big on the idea of mixing it with AX. When I go to AX, I go to AX to shop and walk around, not really to only talk about Macross. Now, if we could get Mikimoto or the Hory Froating Head to show, that'd be different, but seperating the cons gives some people a time to get those that go to SDCC and AX money to save to come back to MW. What do you guys think? Am I alone in feeling this?

Kind of. If there was a Macross panel to celebrate Macross I'd attend it. But at the same time i dont think it be worth while to host the panel and only 4 people show up how were actually interested and all the rest are waiting for the next panel to begin.

But If Memo wants to bury the hatchet. I'm all for it.

And Seto Christmas is coming up that means office holiday party. I say you get the Kool-aid out and lace it with roofies instead of arsenic. And give it to HG's legal and marketing departments.

[Aladdin Sane]

Actually, I think we've got a schism brewing...the Setoites versus the Petians.

Seto promises booze, Macross II, and rigorous fact-checking. Pete promises booze, Macross 7, and panties.

What about Fundamentalist Macrossism, worshiping only the original sacred text of Super Dimension Fortress Macross?

Do not trust Do You Remember Love?! It is a tool of the devil, a corrupted version of the holy word of SDF:M designed to tempt you away with it's flashy lights and fancy animation. The true path to salvation lies only in the original 36 episode scripture!

Edited December 9, 2009 by Aladdin Sane

[Gubaba]

What about Fundamentalist Macrossism, worshiping only the original sacred text of Super Dimension Fortress Macross?

Do not trust Do You Remember Love?! It is a tool of the devil, a corrupted version of the holy word of SDF:M designed to tempt you away with it's flashy lights and fancy animation. The true path to salvation lies only in the original 36 episode scripture!

That's going to be a lonely, lonely cult.

[BeyondTheGrave]

That's going to be a lonely, lonely cult.

Idk its kind of hard to deny that type of power

Edited December 9, 2009 by BeyondTheGrave

[Freiflug88]

I've been trying to get her to let me scan and upload some photos of it, but she's always put the kibosh on it because she's camera-shy and the suit leaves NOTHING to the imagination.

Tried compromising through Photoshoping?

Idk its kind of hard to deny this type of power

Force Lighting is nothing to the great metal god of my cult.

[Robelwell202]

What about Fundamentalist Macrossism, worshiping only the original sacred text of Super Dimension Fortress Macross?

Do not trust Do You Remember Love?! It is a tool of the devil, a corrupted version of the holy word of SDF:M designed to tempt you away with it's flashy lights and fancy animation. The true path to salvation lies only in the original 36 episode scripture!

We, at the church of Viper-ism, don't subscribe to that uholy view of things. While you may view DYRL as a hedonistic pile of apocrypha, we in the church of Viper-ism freely acknowledge it's existance, and rejoice in this most holy of presentations, as it affords us a view of the Mighty Destroid Tomahawk, firing it's guns!

While it is true that the church of Viper-ism presnts a unified front for the greater glory of Frontier, we do like to acknowledge what has come before, in paving the way for our holiest of holies, the divine tale of Alto, Sheryl, and Ranka.

Blessed be the word of Kawamori!

[Jasonc]

It's not JUST me... everyone who disagrees with ignorant, self-appointed "authorities" like MEMO and Doug Bendo is labeled a Macross Purist or Macross Groupie regardless of whether or not they've even SEEN Macross, which has led to many of the remaining intelligent Robotech fans being labeled Macross Purists by the idiot brigade and lately, being called my disciples, flunkies, yes-men, etc.

You know, I don't think half the people who use that term "Macross Purist" actually know what the hell they're talking about. If you think about it. What is Macross Purism? It's someone who wants to keep Macross, well, as Macross. I never thought it meant you had to dislike Robotech, only that you prefer the original Macross over any imitation of it. Is that a bad thing? I certainly don't think so, and while I liked Roboech for what it brought for the time, I still consider myself a Macross purist simply cause I prefer SDF: Macross to Robotech: The Macross Saga. That's why, whenever I've been labled, I really careless. Actually, everytime they call someone a Macross Purist, it really says something. It says, "you like something that is untainted", unlike Robotech, which by default, would be a tainted show. Hmmm, am I thinking too logically in this?

Anyways, I just had to comment on that. Really shows how much some of these people actually think. Yeah, I know that's obvious.

[Einherjar]

Honestly, some of the names they given themselves by comparison are various and a bit obscure because of the divisions.

"Viper-ites" Promising casual fact-checking ("I dunno, I just like the show...), Macross Frontier, and beer!

And I can see the SDF-2 from my house!

[taksraven]

Taksraven

[Aladdin Sane]

And I can see the SDF-2 from my house!

Well sure, but the important thing now that we've settled on its location is: how long is it?

Edited December 9, 2009 by Aladdin Sane

[Robelwell202]

Well sure, but the important thing now that we've settled on its location is: how long is it?

That's kind of a personal question, and I don't know you well enough to feel comfortable in answering it.

[Aladdin Sane]

That's kind of a personal question, and I don't know you well enough to feel comfortable in answering it.

Well I don't suppose it can be too big if there's been years worth of debate on where it was exactly.

[VFTF1]

You know, I don't think half the people who use that term "Macross Purist" actually know what the hell they're talking about. If you think about it. What is Macross Purism? It's someone who wants to keep Macross, well, as Macross. I never thought it meant you had to dislike Robotech, only that you prefer the original Macross over any imitation of it. Is that a bad thing? I certainly don't think so, and while I liked Roboech for what it brought for the time, I still consider myself a Macross purist simply cause I prefer SDF: Macross to Robotech: The Macross Saga. That's why, whenever I've been labled, I really careless. Actually, everytime they call someone a Macross Purist, it really says something. It says, "you like something that is untainted", unlike Robotech, which by default, would be a tainted show. Hmmm, am I thinking too logically in this?

Your reasoning is brilliant and very logical - and I hadn't thought of that either.

I literally have nothing to add to your perfect statement.

Pete

[Seto Kaiba]

You know, I don't think half the people who use that term "Macross Purist" actually know what the hell they're talking about. If you think about it. What is Macross Purism? It's someone who wants to keep Macross, well, as Macross. I never thought it meant you had to dislike Robotech, only that you prefer the original Macross over any imitation of it. Is that a bad thing?

Really, I think it's not that they don't understand what the term "Macross Purist" should mean, but rather that the people who bandy the term about like it's an insult are the ones who subscribe to the view that Macross fandom and Robotech fandom are, or at least ought to be, mutually exclusive. It should come as no surprise that it's the few fans who hold that narrow-minded, dogmatic, generally ignorant view that so often give Robotech a bad name worse name than its "creators" have already given it.

Generally speaking, the Robotech fans who want to point fingers and accuse people of being "Macross Purists" are Robotech Purists, the fans who consider the "original 85" episodes of Robotech the be-all end-all of RT and anime in general, and the members of the lunatic fringe who want to banish anyone who doesn't share their views. On a Robotech board, the accusation that someone is a "Macross Purist" is a roundabout way of trying to invalidate what someone else has said without having to actually refute their arguments. For the accusing Robotech fan, calling someone a "Macross Purist" carries the following implicit ad hominem argument:

No real fan of Robotech would disagree with my argument.

You are disagreeing with my argument.

Therefore, you are not a real Robotech fan.

In this way, the accusation that someone is a "Macross Purist" is meant to imply that the logic of the accuser's argument really is sound, and that the only reason the accused is disagreeing is because he/she is a Macross fan who hates Robotech and just wants to cause trouble. Most people accept this sort of assertion as ridiculous on its face, but that doesn't stop idiots like Pizza the Hutt and Doug Bendo from trying to use it as though it were a "get out of argument free" card that excuses them from having to actually address the arguments of others and concede points when doing so would be inconvenient to what they want to believe.

[VFTF1]

Actually -here's an even more insidious interpretation of 'Macross Purist' ---

Robotech fans who call people 'Macross purists' mean by that term - a person who ONLY like the Macross Saga part of Robotech. Because, you see, Macross does not exist outside of Robotech. So, all these wierd people who insist that "Macross is better than Robotech" are really loopy in the head because Macross is just one of three parts of Robotech - and it's so dogmatic and narrow minded to argue that one part of an entire Space Opera is SO great that you actually want to pretend the other two parts never happened.

A Macross Purist lives in denial of the next two parts of Robotech that followed the Macross Saga- they for some reason want to just pretend the Macross Saga is all there is.

They are wierdos who live in a cult.

----

And this interpretion makes sense given that for the casual Robotech fan Macross IS the first part of Robotech, so if they hear people saying "Macross is Better than Robotech" --- to them it sounds like "A New Hope is better than the original Star Wars Trilogy." That opinion sounds totally crazy and makes no sense.

Pete

[Einherjar]

In turn, there are a lot of fans who want to forget a lot of things that happened in Robotech as well; The Master's Saga, Sentinels, Untold Story, novels, comics, Shadow Chronicles. If fans were that selective about the whole thing, compared to us, at most they like only one additional thing about it, The New Generation/Mospeada. But from a nostalgic/long term point of view, fans always remember The Macross Saga anyway, so whatever intent the label was supposed to do is really hypocritical. Macross Saga is the ideal image of the entire franchise.

We just like the original Japanese flavor of the main thing they remember fondly, as well as a lot of the additional, really connected material that came out as a result of it.

Well sure, but the important thing now that we've settled on its location is: how long is it?

I don't know, but it's in the general vicinity of where I live. I also don't know what the Global Doctrine is all about.

Edited December 9, 2009 by Einherjar

[taksraven]

Its funny how extreme fandom of any type degenerates into religious fanaticism. HG and RT.Com should organise a "Robotech Inquisition" and persecute/exterminate all unbelievers.

And if you guys think that RT is the worst, you should see Trek and Who extreme fandom. SF Franchises that have been around for over 40 years with fans that treat each other really badly.

Taksraven

Edited December 9, 2009 by taksraven

[Funkenstein]

But there are more normal people who like the Doc and ST than there are the super nerds. HG is trying to foster more super-nerds by turning them into Knights of Robotech.