HG and Robotech Debates

[taksraven]

The worst thing that I've seen about Doug Bendo is the fact that his first name is Doug! It makes me so ashamed to share first names!

It could be worse. Your first name could be Adolf. :lol:

Taksraven

[D.D. Ivanov]

Going back to the article...

Nekki Basara said:

This debate is meaningless. LISTEN TO MY SONG!

Posted 12/04/2009 at 11:28:21 AM

I agree.

[Beltane70]

Easy, its almost as long as my wave motion gun.

No matter how big fans may think the SDF-1 appears it can never be longer then the sheets of 8.27 X 11.69 inches of paper it was drawn on.

That's provided Miyatake was using letter-size paper! Maybe he designed on legal-size!

[Funkenstein]

The logical conclusion

"How wide was the sheet of paper that the SDF-1 was drawn on?"

[anime52k8]

It could be worse. Your first name could be Adolf. :lol:

Taksraven

that was my great uncles name

[Freiflug88]

Here's a good rule of thumb:

Space ships in cartoons are always long enough to achieve their plot-objectives.

Pete

Yeah right, it's just to meet the plot-objectives. That's what all the space ship designers say. Everyone knows this is the real reason space ships are all designed to be long:

That's provided Miyatake was using letter-size paper! Maybe he designed on legal-size!

I was actually going by the size of A4 paper, the most common paper size in the world. The length of A4 is actually right in the middle of the length of Letter and Legal: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...r_and_legal.svg

Miyatake is a more insecure space ship builder then I thought though if he felt he was actually compelled to use the entire length of a page to design the length of the SDF. I leave stunts like that to Tommy Yune and his SDF-3

Edited December 6, 2009 by Freiflug88

[VF5SS]

Uh, every time they say "Protoculture"

Oh big woop the definition changes from to show. Even in Mospeada they just wanted some gas for their bikes. Damn delinquents.

[UN_MARINE]

The "true" length of the SDF-1 is subjective. it depends on how much Protoculture the viewer/fan has smoked.

Afterall, in Robotech, Protoculture is a reality-bending substance.

nobody will ever know how long it really is.

[BeyondTheGrave]

I think we're all missing the forest for the trees and avoiding the true question in all this:

Just how long is the SDF-1???

I thought WanzerFan answered that already?

Oh big woop the definition changes from to show. Even in Mospeada they just wanted some gas for their bikes. Damn delinquents.

I thought it was episode to episode.

One minute its Fuel the next its sex(At one point I think gloval ask if the zentradi were from protocultrue). After that it becomes Hemp then a flower then back to fuel. Then becoming spirit energy of the earth which is taken form the earth by a phoenix(i think) afterward you find out they have a Protoculture "matrix" whatever the heck that is. So I'm just going to say its some sort of electric sexual flower that you can smoke.

Edited December 6, 2009 by BeyondTheGrave

[hulagu]

Oh big woop the definition changes from to show. Even in Mospeada they just wanted some gas for their bikes. Damn delinquents.

It's because in the novel backstory for Robotech, the entire reason for the wars is all three alien enemies want their lost Protoculture Matrix/Flowers of Life on the SDF-1,which Zor stole away from the Masters who stole it from the Invid or something to that order. I don't remember how much of that was explicitly stated in the show itself.

Edited December 6, 2009 by hulagu

[Gubaba]

It's because in the novel backstory for Robotech, the entire reason for the wars is all three alien enemies want their lost Protoculture Matrix/Flowers of Life on the SDF-1,which Zor sent it away from the Masters who stole it from the Invid or something to that order. I don't remember how much of that was explicitly stated in the show itself.

Does it matter what the rationale is? It doesn't make Robotech any less lame.

[Seto Kaiba]

It's because in the novel backstory for Robotech, the entire reason for the wars is all three alien enemies want their lost Protoculture Matrix/Flowers of Life on the SDF-1,which Zor stole away from the Masters who stole it from the Invid or something to that order. I don't remember how much of that was explicitly stated in the show itself.

Gubaba raises an excellent point, no amount of justification can make it suck less as a plot device.

If I remember correctly, in the TV series it was the original Zor who encountered the Flowers of Life and sorted out how to harness protoculture on the Invid homeworld, then the Masters defoliated the Invid homeworld to feed their war machine, and the Invid attacked them for it, then Zor, who saw what went down, sent the last protoculture matrix thingy (which is used to make more protoculture fuel) to his ship and sent it on a blind jump through hyperspace where it then crashed on Earth and started the whole shenanigans of the TV series.

[RDClip]

Gubaba raises an excellent point, no amount of justification can make it suck less as a plot device.

If I remember correctly, in the TV series it was the original Zor who encountered the Flowers of Life and sorted out how to harness protoculture on the Invid homeworld, then the Masters defoliated the Invid homeworld to feed their war machine, and the Invid attacked them for it, then Zor, who saw what went down, sent the last protoculture matrix thingy (which is used to make more protoculture fuel) to his ship and sent it on a blind jump through hyperspace where it then crashed on Earth and started the whole shenanigans of the TV series.

So, RT is an unintentional lesson why we should get rid of our dependence on fossil fuels?

So the floating robot torsos are the good guys, who use renewable sources of fuel.

Edited December 6, 2009 by RDClip

[hulagu]

So, RT is an unintentional lesson why we should get rid of our dependence on fossil fuels?

No, that's Dune. (Actually, I think McKinney was trying to rip off that as well).

[Einherjar]

Carl Macek also collaborated with McKinney to make the novels, so it could have been his idea too. Also, the Dune film did come out around that time.

It still sounds like bad futuristic economics, solely relying on a very rare power source to do anything without looking for alternatives. Even worse when it causes wars every few years.

[VFTF1]

....I felt tempted to add something...but really... what's the point?

You know - did I say this already? --- what realy dissapointed me about that "8 reasons why Robotech is better than Macross" is that I was HOPING that some real reasons would be given - like reasons that could actually hold some weight.

Instead it's just more of the same. Not even lameness - but just ignorance.

Pete

[anime52k8]

It still sounds like bad futuristic economics, solely relying on a very rare power source to do anything without looking for alternatives. Even worse when it causes wars every few years.

I see what you did there

[Einherjar]

I see what you did there

I'm serious, and they never solved it in any continuity.

[VFTF1]

Fine. Here's a new question:

How do the Haydonites float? When I read the novel Planet killers - about the flying carpets...I got this vision of Lisa, Rick, Max and a comatose Milia in Super Mario 2 - jumping on those flying carpets from level 4 I think it was....

And if the Haydonites are the bad guys - why did that just suddenly happen in SC?

My theory is that the menacing music and dark visuals turned the Haydonites bad. Just watch those same seens with Sesame Street music in the Background and there's no way the Haydonites would be the villains.

Pete

(before you point out that my reasoning is at the same level as that of a 3 year old, I would like to remind you that it IS Robotech we're talking about here)

[Keith]

The irony, Mospeada had its perfectly clean & abundant HBT fuel source perverted into "proboculture."

I'm just glad they didn't get their hands on Votoms. Even if it woiuld have made more sense to go after it.

[Einherjar]

I'm just glad they didn't get their hands on Votoms. Even if it woiuld have made more sense to go after it.

There was an important energy source in Votoms? I only remember the ringer fluid in Palisen Files and jijirum.

[Keith]

The whichamadoodle diamond shower stuff that I can't remember the name of right now, that kept Fyana & Ypsilon alive.

[hulagu]

Fine. Here's a new question:

How do the Haydonites float? When I read the novel Planet killers - about the flying carpets...I got this vision of Lisa, Rick, Max and a comatose Milia in Super Mario 2 - jumping on those flying carpets from level 4 I think it was....

And if the Haydonites are the bad guys - why did that just suddenly happen in SC?

My theory is that the menacing music and dark visuals turned the Haydonites bad. Just watch those same seens with Sesame Street music in the Background and there's no way the Haydonites would be the villains.

Pete

(before you point out that my reasoning is at the same level as that of a 3 year old, I would like to remind you that it IS Robotech we're talking about here)

My personal crackpot theory to explain the blatant inconsistencies and revisionism is that Shadow Chronicles is an in-series propaganda "documentary" meant as damage control after the Symphonygate, to exonerate Admiral Rick Hunter of attempted genocidal war crimes ("I didn`t know it was a nunnery! I didn`t know neutron-s tactical crushing nukes could do that!") , and to sell the Earth public on the REF's next war against the next most powerful race in the Galaxy after we've finished kicking the asses of the Invid and the Masters on Tirol. Because, you know, they hate and fear our Protoculture. And because, like always, We Will Win.

Edited December 6, 2009 by hulagu

[taksraven]

Didn't want to start a thread about this. Interesting to be sure...

http://www.toplessrobot.com/2009/12/8_reas...han_macross.php

Just a heads-up to people here, I hit a nasty bit of malware when visiting this site today (antivirus 2009 or some other crap), so be wary if you visit the link.

Taksraven

[Seto Kaiba]

to sell the Earth public on the REF's next war against the next most powerful race in the Galaxy after we've finished kicking the asses of the Invid and the Masters on Tirol. Because, you know, they hate and fear our Protoculture. And because, like always, We Will Win.

This is one of those things about Robotech that I just don't understand. The more vocal Robotech fans have always had a marked tendency to gush about how deep and sophisticated the Robotech story is and how it deals with profound real-world themes like the oil crisis, the empowerment of women, and the importance of tolerance and understanding... but it's all a crock of poo. No matter what "generation" you're watching, the story is always the just a variation on the following program:

10 "Evil" aliens come to Earth in search of something important and invariably protoculture-related.

20 Humanity responds to the alien presence by shooting first and asking questions later.

30 The conflict degenerates into a series of minor skirmishes largely won by the Earth forces largely because the aliens can't be arsed to mobile all their forces to address such a minor threat.

40 One or more "evil" aliens abandon their people and their way of life to join the human "good guys".

50 The "evil" aliens finally run out of patience with their failure to defeat the barely sapient protagonist(s) and decide to do the galaxy a favor by committing all of their forces to wiping them out.

60 Due to the intervention of the token "good" alien(s), humanity narrowly triumphs over and wipes out the "evil" aliens after they devastate Earth and annihilate out most of humanity.

70 GOTO 10

Not only does this pattern hold true for the three existing "sagas" of Robotech, the leaked draft of the "Shadow Saga" movies also fits this established pattern perfectly... with Haydonite commander Veidt getting exiled for failing in Shadow Chronicles and joining the humans to destroy the other Haydonites. The only change is that for the last bit you have to substitute "Tirol" for "Earth".

As you can see, the story itself has all the subtlety of a good swift kick in the balls, and it's a safe bet that any or all of the alleged profound messages and sophisticated moral themes exist only in the minds of the viewers who read things into the story that the "writers" never intended. Robotech was, after all, "created" to be a shallow, mildly diverting TV show intended to sell transforming robot toys to young children. It was never intended to be the sophisticated sci-fi epic its few fans claim it to be. That's all post-facto BS from Carl Macek and company. Virtually all of the claims the fans make about the show having profound themes are completely absurd that it's practically impossible to take them or the fans seriously. It couldn't be more obvious that the alleged parallels to the oil crisis are fans seeing a coincidence and wrongly assuming it was intentional. The "empowerment of women" aspect runs aground rather early after the majority of the female characters are forced by various circumstances to settle down, quit their careers, leave the fighting to the men, and start popping out babies. By the end of the Masters Saga, which is pointed to as the best example of female empowerment in Robotech, Dana, Maia, and Nova have all given up any pretense of being strong, independent women in favor of having steady boyfriends. Not only does "Zor Prime" completely usurp the position of main character from his girlfriend Dana, he gives his life to win a squabble with an old man over a jar of flowers, not just breaking her heart but leaving her a shattered, emotionally fragile wreck for her entire adult life. This business about Robotech teaching tolerance is just as absurd as the rest... humanity never makes an honest attempt to understand the aliens they're constantly picking fights with, they shoot first and ask questions later, then get their asses kicked for starting fights above their weight class. After the war is over and the human forces have exterminated all the "evil" aliens, the few alien survivors are forced (at gunpoint no less) to integrate into human society, after which they promptly die out or, if they're lucky, become expendable soldiers for the war against the next "alien menace". Even the "friendly" aliens that humanity supposedly liberates from the tyranny of the Invid Regent in Sentinels and Prelude ultimately find themselves trading one despot for another when their liberators immediately enlist them in sustaining their massive and ongoing war effort.

When you actually sit down and think about it, Robotech's story is actually kind of disturbing... with only one major exception, the "evil" aliens had no intention of starting a fight and were just trying to reclaim something that had been stolen from them by someone else. Ultimately, they end up being slaughtered by a bunch of human bellends who can't be arsed to ask why the aliens are even there, and the survivors are forcibly integrated into human society where they can look forward to either dying out peaceably between wars or being forced into servitude in the human war machine in order to further humanity's manifest destiny as the undisputed rulers of the cosmos.

Actually, I think I might be on to something here...

[Wanzerfan]

This is one of those things about Robotech that I just don't understand. The more vocal Robotech fans have always had a marked tendency to gush about how deep and sophisticated the Robotech story is and how it deals with profound real-world themes like the oil crisis, the empowerment of women, and the importance of tolerance and understanding... but it's all a crock of poo. No matter what "generation" you're watching, the story is always the just a variation on the following program:

10 "Evil" aliens come to Earth in search of something important and invariably protoculture-related.

20 Humanity responds to the alien presence by shooting first and asking questions later.

30 The conflict degenerates into a series of minor skirmishes largely won by the Earth forces largely because the aliens can't be arsed to mobile all their forces to address such a minor threat.

40 One or more "evil" aliens abandon their people and their way of life to join the human "good guys".

50 The "evil" aliens finally run out of patience with their failure to defeat the barely sapient protagonist(s) and decide to do the galaxy a favor by committing all of their forces to wiping them out.

60 Due to the intervention of the token "good" alien(s), humanity narrowly triumphs over and wipes out the "evil" aliens after they devastate Earth and annihilate out most of humanity.

70 GOTO 10

Not only does this pattern hold true for the three existing "sagas" of Robotech, the leaked draft of the "Shadow Saga" movies also fits this established pattern perfectly... with Haydonite commander Veidt getting exiled for failing in Shadow Chronicles and joining the humans to destroy the other Haydonites. The only change is that for the last bit you have to substitute "Tirol" for "Earth".

As you can see, the story itself has all the subtlety of a good swift kick in the balls, and it's a safe bet that any or all of the alleged profound messages and sophisticated moral themes exist only in the minds of the viewers who read things into the story that the "writers" never intended. Robotech was, after all, "created" to be a shallow, mildly diverting TV show intended to sell transforming robot toys to young children. It was never intended to be the sophisticated sci-fi epic its few fans claim it to be. That's all post-facto BS from Carl Macek and company. Virtually all of the claims the fans make about the show having profound themes are completely absurd that it's practically impossible to take them or the fans seriously. It couldn't be more obvious that the alleged parallels to the oil crisis are fans seeing a coincidence and wrongly assuming it was intentional. The "empowerment of women" aspect runs aground rather early after the majority of the female characters are forced by various circumstances to settle down, quit their careers, leave the fighting to the men, and start popping out babies. By the end of the Masters Saga, which is pointed to as the best example of female empowerment in Robotech, Dana, Maia, and Nova have all given up any pretense of being strong, independent women in favor of having steady boyfriends. Not only does "Zor Prime" completely usurp the position of main character from his girlfriend Dana, he gives his life to win a squabble with an old man over a jar of flowers, not just breaking her heart but leaving her a shattered, emotionally fragile wreck for her entire adult life. This business about Robotech teaching tolerance is just as absurd as the rest... humanity never makes an honest attempt to understand the aliens they're constantly picking fights with, they shoot first and ask questions later, then get their asses kicked for starting fights above their weight class. After the war is over and the human forces have exterminated all the "evil" aliens, the few alien survivors are forced (at gunpoint no less) to integrate into human society, after which they promptly die out or, if they're lucky, become expendable soldiers for the war against the next "alien menace". Even the "friendly" aliens that humanity supposedly liberates from the tyranny of the Invid Regent in Sentinels and Prelude ultimately find themselves trading one despot for another when their liberators immediately enlist them in sustaining their massive and ongoing war effort.

When you actually sit down and think about it, Robotech's story is actually kind of disturbing... with only one major exception, the "evil" aliens had no intention of starting a fight and were just trying to reclaim something that had been stolen from them by someone else. Ultimately, they end up being slaughtered by a bunch of human bellends who can't be arsed to ask why the aliens are even there, and the survivors are forcibly integrated into human society where they can look forward to either dying out peaceably between wars or being forced into servitude in the human war machine in order to further humanity's manifest destiny as the undisputed rulers of the cosmos.

Actually, I think I might be on to something here...

More like a grazing blow to the balls; that's worse because you don't know when the pain will kick in.

[VFTF1]

More like a grazing blow to the balls; that's worse because you don't know when the pain will kick in.

I think we're on to a good debate subject here.

ROBOTECH: A SWIFT KICK TO THE BALLS - OR A GRAZING BLOW TO THE BALLS?

YOU DECIDE!

Pete

[BeyondTheGrave]

Just a heads-up to people here, I hit a nasty bit of malware when visiting this site today (antivirus 2009 or some other crap), so be wary if you visit the link.

Taksraven

Happened to me too. Its sign that Topless Robot really is bad for you.

[Marzan]

I think we're on to a good debate subject here.

ROBOTECH: A SWIFT KICK TO THE BALLS - OR A GRAZING BLOW TO THE BALLS?

YOU DECIDE!

Pete

Clearly grazing for me. At first, I felt no pain...It came later...with a vengeance!!

[BeyondTheGrave]

I think we're on to a good debate subject here.

ROBOTECH: A SWIFT KICK TO THE BALLS - OR A GRAZING BLOW TO THE BALLS?

YOU DECIDE!

Pete

Neither more like my ears and eyes hurting which then becomes burned into your brain and you hear the songs playing over and over. With a swift kick or even a grazing the pain subsides after so long.

Robotech does not.

Also if you back to that site where you could get a virus on your computer someone said otaku's hate Macross and Robotech. And that Gundam is superior.

Edited December 6, 2009 by BeyondTheGrave

[VFTF1]

some said otaku's hate Macross and Robotech. And that Gundam is superior

Oh that make sense...

But seriously - I never felt inclined to compare Gundam to Macross. They are completely different. Each does a good job being what it is; Gundam has a few series which I don't particularly like - but that's neither here nor there. Other Gundam stories I like just fine. Macross I pretty much like all of it. I haven't seen MII though - and don't really feel the burning need to do it...

But amongst otaku - I never detected any "this anime sucks while this other one rules" .... it's not like there are just two anime or something. There's such a large number of them that usually you need to judge them on their own merits and demerits...

Pete

[BeyondTheGrave]

It is possible they weren't talking about otaku but talking about "otaku".

[magnuskn]

The true number one reason why Robotech is better than Macross:

-Because Robotech fans can't cope with the fact that their dead pirated franchise of choice shafs them at every opportunity, while Macross fans are basking in the glory of regular every few year doses of awesome!

Although, sad as it is, they may have their ultimate revenge if Tobey Maguire manages to mangle the story to death and we won't ever be able to see a life-action Macross film, because now Hollywood has dibs on Robotech.

As you can see, the story itself has all the subtlety of a good swift kick in the balls, and it's a safe bet that any or all of the alleged profound messages and sophisticated moral themes exist only in the minds of the viewers who read things into the story that the "writers" never intended. Robotech was, after all, "created" to be a shallow, mildly diverting TV show intended to sell transforming robot toys to young children. It was never intended to be the sophisticated sci-fi epic its few fans claim it to be. That's all post-facto BS from Carl Macek and company. Virtually all of the claims the fans make about the show having profound themes are completely absurd that it's practically impossible to take them or the fans seriously. It couldn't be more obvious that the alleged parallels to the oil crisis are fans seeing a coincidence and wrongly assuming it was intentional. The "empowerment of women" aspect runs aground rather early after the majority of the female characters are forced by various circumstances to settle down, quit their careers, leave the fighting to the men, and start popping out babies. By the end of the Masters Saga, which is pointed to as the best example of female empowerment in Robotech, Dana, Maia, and Nova have all given up any pretense of being strong, independent women in favor of having steady boyfriends. Not only does "Zor Prime" completely usurp the position of main character from his girlfriend Dana, he gives his life to win a squabble with an old man over a jar of flowers, not just breaking her heart but leaving her a shattered, emotionally fragile wreck for her entire adult life.

Yeah, look. I came pretty late into Macross fandom, due to life circunstances like not knowing nor giving a poo about the differences for many years and have only really become a true convert with Macross Frontier. Which results in me having purchased the Robotech books many years ago and having read them all at least twice. And I don't know where you got your characterization of Dana Sterling from, but that is not how she comes off in the last book, The End of the Circle. There she still is a gung-ho action-girl, which is a definite step up from "emotional wreck for the rest of her life".

Edited December 6, 2009 by magnuskn

[BeyondTheGrave]

Although, sad as it is, they may have their ultimate revenge if Tobey Maguire manages to mangle the story to death and we won't ever be able to see a life-action Macross film, because now Hollywood has dibs on Robotech.

Things to remember:

-Hollywood is greedy

-Hollywood is unoriginal

-Hollywood will de-dub and re-write the movie and call it SDFM in Japan.

If Hg was smart they'd do item number three from the start.

[VFTF1]

they may have their ultimate revenge if Tobey Maguire manages to mangle the story to death and we won't ever be able to see a life-action Macross film

Additional thing to remember: Not all of us want a live action Macross film. Some people like their girls anime-style!

Pete

(who for the first time since joing Macross world has used the emoticon...)

Edited December 6, 2009 by VFTF1