HG and Robotech Debates

[HappyPenguins]

Kawamorii apparantly stated that he does not want to revisit any of the old characters for fear of tampering with the excellence of how their arcs ended.

I tend to agree with this. The love story from Macross was beautiful and it's over.

In Robotech, aside from the changes that they make to Macross, one of the big problems with the Lisa/Rick relationship (and Minmey really) is that it just becomes a lame soap opera. A wonderful love story becomes distilled. Minmey becomes this Mother of the Universe figure and Rick and Lisa become just some boring people in love.

I guess the idea with Macross was that the story is over - don't ruin it by continuing it beyond what was necessary to make it great.

Pete

ah okay, that I can understand

[Einherjar]

I have question in regards to the macross, I would like to know why is it that there's a new cast for every new series? I've never really seen any continuations, unless you count macross 7 since its got max and millia (much older) I'm not knocking it or anything but it would be nice to find out what happened to the previous characters, instead of just having them "disappear", and then BAM new characters, new time line.

The thing is, originally the creators of Macross did not intend it to become a franchise. After Do You Remember Love and Flashback 2012, it was supposed to be over. In fact, Shoji Kawamori never worked on it again until Macross Plus. When he isn't working on the series, he's been busy doing other things, Armored Core, Escaflowne, Gundam 0083, etc. He's not a one trick pony.

A quote from imdb:

This OAV and _Macross 7 (1994) (TV)_ were the result of Big West giving 'Shoji Kawamori' an unlimited budget in return for him finally making another Macross production. Kawamori set only one condition: he would not revisit the original main trio of the first TV series (Hikaru, Misa and Minmay).

Even with all the added development Robotech gave the characters, where did it really lead? Rick and Lisa were lovey dovey between commanding a ship and angst and ended up with a Roy Hunter. But most/all of that progress was wiped clean in the end anyway, so what does that say about those developments and the storytellers, old and new?

[Jasonc]

Aside from Mac II there are plenty of references to characters from all the shows. Mac Zero actually had a younger Roy in it and many of Zero's story elements are embedded in the back story to Macross Frontier. Minmay is talked about in M7 and MF, and a picture of her is even shown at the end of Frontier. It's still up in the air to what exactly showing the picture actually insinuates. As far as what happened to them nobody really knows. Compared to what happened to their RT counterparts I'm fine without knowing.

I do agree here, and HP, to answer your question, there is lots of fill-in story around, although I don't know how official it is. But there are books that fill the gaps as to what happens to many of the characters. As far as the Minmay, Misa, Hikaru triangle, I understand what you feel to some extent. For me, I'd like at least a synopsis of what happened, not necessarily the details, and a rehash of a love triangle that has already played out. While there was a satisfying feeling in seeing Rick Hunter in Sentinels, after reading the story, I couldn't stand what they turned Minmay into. It was just a lousy way to turn such a great cast of characters into less-than-epic characters.

The idea that Hikaru, Misa, and Minmay just kinda disappear off into the sunset does leave me wanting to find out more, but I can understand Kawamori's intentions of not wanting to convolute the story. Still, I always thought there could've been some balance between what happened, and not destroying the story.

[Lolicon]

Be careful what you wish for...

People wanted to know what happened to Captain Kirk and we got... Generations.

People wanted to know how Anakin became Vader and we got... the prequels.

People wanted to know what happened to Neo and company, and we got... the Matrix sequels.

Now (some) people want to know what happened to "Rick Hunter" and the SDF-3... based on The Shadow Chronicles, does anyone believe it's going to be satisfying in any way?

Sometimes it's better not to know.

I'd love to see Hikaru and gang again, but only if it's interesting and brings something new to the table. Otherwise, better leave well enough alone.

[VFTF1]

You know, I was thinking just the other day, since I'm doing the whole watching M7 again together thread experienece...and we have Max and Millia in Macross 7 - now in SDFM TV they were more familial, whereas in M7 they're preoccupied with their work.

So, I was thinking that Misa and Hikaru have it the other way around.

If we ever did see them again - I would like to think that Misa quit her job and had babies, and that Hikaru pilots an Angel Bird and does stunts, valkyrie racing, and maybe runs a maintenance business or something.

I so totally hate the notion that they are still soldiers, fighting the next war blah blah blah.

The whole point of Macross was that Misa rediscovered her femininity. I know she was given a mission and given command of the Megaroad-1 - but does that necessarily mean she'll stay in command?

I would hope that due to pregnancy, she would finally leave and sit at home for a while and be happy.

I dunno...I just always really was happy with the ending of Macross and I would like to think that Misa and Hikaru grow old together and in love.

As for Minmey- she just becomes what she has become in Macross - a legend.

Seeing Max and Millia in M7, Roy in Macross Zero... these were nice touches - as well as all the ties that Macross Frontier had to Zero. All of this is good - but even in giving us a glimpse of the past or the future, the writers are VERY careful not to reveal too much, because they understand that overexposure can kill a good character.

Pete

[taksraven]

Be careful what you wish for...

People wanted to know what happened to Captain Kirk and we got... Generations.

People wanted to know how Anakin became Vader and we got... the prequels.

People wanted to know what happened to Neo and company, and we got... the Matrix sequels.

Now (some) people want to know what happened to "Rick Hunter" and the SDF-3... based on The Shadow Chronicles, does anyone believe it's going to be satisfying in any way?

Sometimes it's better not to know.

I'd love to see Hikaru and gang again, but only if it's interesting and brings something new to the table. Otherwise, better leave well enough alone.

It always astonishes me how some people do cry out for sequels for stories that clearly are meant to be over or just a one-off. And its usually those people who start screaming when the follow-ups don't match their expectations. Its easy to see what Stephen King was getting at in "Misery".

Taksraven

[Wanzerfan]

You're a tough one to classify, since nominally your point of interest in Robotech is something directly from Macross.

No kidding, I'd say MEMO had taken leave of his senses, but that would imply that he'd ever had sense to begin with, and all evidence points to that not being the case. Just like Maverick, MEMO is absolutely convinced that Warner is ultimately behind every move Harmony Gold has been making of late... he tried to convince everyone on RobotechX that Warner was behind Robotech being put up on Hulu, claiming that Warner owned part of the site and was leveraging that to get RT up where it could get better exposure.

No suprise there, since Warner also owns Wildstorm publishing outright.

[VF5SS]

I'm not knocking it or anything but it would be nice to find out what happened to the previous characters, instead of just having them "disappear", and then BAM new characters, new time line.

Isn't that basically what Robotech "proper" did anyways? It's not like going from Gundam to Zeta Gundam where several characters return or even Macross to Macross 7. Take away all the filler material (which we established matters as much as fanfic at this point) and its arguably a lot worse than any Japanese series even with regards any kind of continuity. Honestly I think Robotech grafted the worse parts of the American comic and tie-in novel industry as they tried to overextend the plot and characters of shows with basically complete stories. As a result, Robotech just looks dead a dryer because of all that. Even at the start of the Macross franchise proper, one four episode OVA managed to make Macross look more alive than a decade of Robotech material.

[VFTF1]

Actually - that's a great point VF5SS.

I mean - technically, if we go by the cartoon alone then Rick and Lisa and the Macross saga crew are gone and never seen again.

We do see them in the novels, in the 3 episodes of Sentinels and er..I guess we see Rick for a couple seconds in Shadow Chronciles...

But yeah - the Robotech cartoon is pretty brutal about just chucking them - and it has no choice in the matter.

VF5SS is right - it's way worse than the original Macross which at least tries to give us some thoughtful, well done retrospectives from time to time...

Pete

[Einherjar]

I mean - technically, if we go by the cartoon alone then Rick and Lisa and the Macross saga crew are gone and never seen again.

Not really for Rick, he was mentioned near the end of the show willing to commit war crimes or something to win back Earth. Of course, that was just a throw away line that has since mutated into something else.

[VFTF1]

Oh well that's great. It's nice to know that the character (Hikaru) who started off as a pacifist opposed to war was morphed by HG into Rick, who ended up understanding that you need to be willing to commit war crimes - not even just go to war, but commit war crimes - to win.

Great job Harmony Gold. Really knocked it out of the ballpark there...

See - this is all the more reason why I prefer Macross

Pete

[VF5SS]

As for the novels and comics, you know guys there's a lot of generic sci-fi material out there. It's just that most of them aren't tied to vaguely successful franchises. You want a crappy bug war with some mysticism and transforming robots you could always read Starcraft/Trasformers fanfic.

[Bri]

Isn't it a typical element in western sci-fi and fantasy that we always end up seeing the rise of the main cast/character to a position of power? Anime is often different, I really love Gurren Lagan for the scene where we see Simon talking to the boy: "Who do you think I am...No, I guess nobody"

[VFTF1]

Isn't it a typical element in western sci-fi and fantasy that we always end up seeing the rise of the main cast/character to a position of power? Anime is often different, I really love Gurren Lagan for the scene where we see Simon talking to the boy: "Who do you think I am...No, I guess nobody"

Yep.

And Nia evaporating - and still choosing to marry Simon and Love him even though, as the anti-spirals would say "she knew there would only be despair."

I do appreciate American movies that have morales at the end, or where a main character rises to a position of power and responsibility. It sometimes works in the context of a story, particularly in cowboy stories like the Man who Shot Liberty Valance, where the brainy lawyer learns (with the help of John Wayne) the value of a gun and goes on to become help the territory become a State and then gets appointed Senator (by the state legislature, which was how they did it until 1918 iirc)....

But yeah... it doesn't always work - and too often it becomes a stereotype. Anime doesn't tend to give us stuff like that. There's always some interesting twist depending on the story, the characters... there's no simple formuale...

Pete

Edited November 17, 2009 by VFTF1

[Seto Kaiba]

But wait, didn't Robotech end up doing a lot of those distasteful things, and then some, in the expanded universe as well, particularly to Minmei? Sure, some of it might be "normal" for sci-fi in book form, but you got to wonder sometimes about some of the characterization and plot lines, "What the hell were they thinking?"

Indeed... Robotech's "expanded universe" titles ended up doing a lot of those distasteful things anyway, turning Minmei into a complete and utter whore was just the tip of the iceberg.

No suprise there, since Warner also owns Wildstorm publishing outright.

Yes, but Warner DOESN'T have any stake in Hulu, which was my whole bloody point... that MEMO is ascribing things to Warner's influence that couldn't possibly be the result of Warner's influence.

Not really for Rick, he was mentioned near the end of the show willing to commit war crimes or something to win back Earth. Of course, that was just a throw away line that has since mutated into something else.

Specifically, it was mentioned (repeatedly) that he had ordered the use of the neutron-s missiles against the Invid, which would devastate Earth's surface. The implication was that it would be essentially just as bad as the orbital bombardment conducted by the Zentradi, and would kill a substantial portion of Earth's population. After the fact, Tommy came along and retconned the whole affair to not only explain how the meaning of "Admiral Hunter" somehow changed from "Lisa Hunter (nee Hayes)" to "Rick Hunter", and to exonerate Rick from the guilt of having ordered Earth's destruction in the New Generation by turning him into the unwitting stooge of the Haydonites, who secretly supplied the technology and then misled the REF about its potential.

Basically... Tommy Yune correctly realized that the vast majority of the fanbase doesn't give a toss about the Masters Saga and New Generation, and took great exception to Rick Hunter being made into a tough-as-nails commander who'd sacrifice Earth to defeat the enemy. So to pander to them and shift the blame elsewhere, he made the whole thing the secret work of the Haydonites.

[HappyPenguins]

The thing is, originally the creators of Macross did not intend it to become a franchise. After Do You Remember Love and Flashback 2012, it was supposed to be over. In fact, Shoji Kawamori never worked on it again until Macross Plus. When he isn't working on the series, he's been busy doing other things, Armored Core, Escaflowne, Gundam 0083, etc. He's not a one trick pony.

A quote from imdb:

Even with all the added development Robotech gave the characters, where did it really lead? Rick and Lisa were lovey dovey between commanding a ship and angst and ended up with a Roy Hunter. But most/all of that progress was wiped clean in the end anyway, so what does that say about those developments and the storytellers, old and new?

While the writing could have been better, it does tell you a lot more other than just having them disappear into space. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a demand for more robotech, which is why the sentinels exist in the first place. But that was then and this is now, the robotech franchise is pretty much dead in the water.

[Gubaba]

While the writing could have been better, it does tell you a lot more other than just having them disappear into space. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a demand for more robotech, which is why the sentinels exist in the first place. But that was then and this is now, the robotech franchise is pretty much dead in the water.

I understand your (what is it...annoyance? Disappointment? Frustration? Bemusement? I'm not sure...). Anyway, I get your point. And clearly, there are a lot of people who want to know what happened to them (I just like to think they went through a fold and ended up somewhere way out there, maybe even in another time, on some idyllic world, where they all settled down and lived happily ever after).

But really, it's Rick and Lisa's lot in life to be lost in space. End of the TV show? They're lost in space. End of Book 12 of the novels? Lost in space. End of the Sentinels books? Lost in space. End of the Shadow Chronicles? Lost in space. The End of the Circle? Minmei is lost in space, even if the others aren't.

But it isn't like they don't crop up again, even in Macross (as others have pointed out). And even the Bridge Bunnies show up again in various extra material.

But really, once the voice actress for Minmay moved to the U.S., and the voice actor for Hikaru died, I pretty much gave up all hope of a continuation. Some loose ends get tied up later, some don't.

I remember an interview with Kawamori in...an early issue of Animerica, I believe, where he said something like, "We used Hikaru, Misa, and Minmay in the TV series and in the movie. If we used them a third time, you'd be bored of them, too." At the time, I thought he was just being flip (and maybe he was), but I also grew to agree with him, especially recently. I've been working on subtitles, books, albums, and comics all about Hikaru, Misa, and Minmay. By the time I'm done, I may never want to see them ever again.

[Seto Kaiba]

While the writing could have been better, it does tell you a lot more other than just having them disappear into space. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a demand for more robotech, which is why the sentinels exist in the first place. But that was then and this is now, the robotech franchise is pretty much dead in the water.

But that raises the question... is more necessarily better?

Macross allows the main characters of its original series to gracefully leave the stage... Misa, Hikaru, and Minmay sail off into the proverbial sunset aboard the Megaroad-01 to spread humanity's culture across the stars. It lets them leave the stage on a high note, and with their dignity intact... and while it was not intended at the time, it leaves the door open for future generations of characters.

Robotech never gives its characters the luxury of a "happily ever after" or even the dignified rest of an old soldier whose duty is done. Instead, they kick artistic integrity to the curb and drag the most popular characters back time and time again, essentially making the entire Robotech universe revolve around them. Those characters end up forced into changes in characterization that don't line up with their original incarnations at all, and dragged into central roles in new stories in hopes that their presence will conceal or at the very least distract people from weak writing. We have to watch them grow old, decrepit, and eventually end up being marginalized by the gradual introduction of new characters or killed off in a pathetic attempt to provide some pathos for a boring story. Just look at what Robotech did with the Shadow Chronicles... they dragged back a bunch of characters from the Macross Saga as the core selling point of the series, but they're all old, washed-up, and changes in appearance and characterization left them feeling unfamiliar and unwelcome, like a stranger sneaking into your house thinly disguised as your best friend. Then they proceeded to reduce Rick Hunter to a witless stooge, turn Lisa into a sniveling whiner who gets incapacitated after three panels, turn Minmei into a brain-dead bimbo princess who needs the hero to rescue her (which he doesn't bother doing for like, a year... lol), leaving Exedore and Breetai as doddering old men (with male pattern baldness no less) who get killed for no reason other than to demonstrate the gravity (pun very much intended) of the Haydonite threat.

[Einherjar]

And if Kawamori did do something involving the original three again, you know HG would do whatever they could to take advantage of it, before and after they relied on the law to settle disputes. Imagine how awkward it would be to have two authors working on separate stories about technically the same characters under different names at the same time? He avoided a lot of confusion by not going through with it. Carl Macek would have used whatever he made for his show too if he was that lucky.

[VF5SS]

I question the appeal of three dire wars all in a row. Yeah it can get kind of silly when one franchise has each interation face a new dire threat (then again Macross is kind of silly) but trying to do it serious business style using someone else's materials is asking for failure. You can't turn Captain Planet into Warhammer 40k no matter how much you try.

[taksraven]

You can't turn Captain Planet into Warhammer 40k no matter how much you try.

Only in this thread could this sentence have a context that makes sense......... :lol:

Taksraven

[Jasonc]

If Macross had decided to go back to SDF:Macross, and continue the story of Hikaru, Misa, Minmay, etc, how much of it would've been new story, and how much would've been overkill of the characters? I like the way the Macross franchise has started and ended their series. The formula they have in place is working, so, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Seto Kaiba]

You can't turn Captain Planet into Warhammer 40k no matter how much you try.

Is that a challenge?

In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only a blue man with a green mullet and red underpants...

Yeah... it doesn't scan very well, but hey, I'll fire up Photoshop and we'll see about selling that one.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[HappyPenguins]

But that raises the question... is more necessarily better?

Macross allows the main characters of its original series to gracefully leave the stage... Misa, Hikaru, and Minmay sail off into the proverbial sunset aboard the Megaroad-01 to spread humanity's culture across the stars. It lets them leave the stage on a high note, and with their dignity intact... and while it was not intended at the time, it leaves the door open for future generations of characters.

Robotech never gives its characters the luxury of a "happily ever after" or even the dignified rest of an old soldier whose duty is done. Instead, they kick artistic integrity to the curb and drag the most popular characters back time and time again, essentially making the entire Robotech universe revolve around them. Those characters end up forced into changes in characterization that don't line up with their original incarnations at all, and dragged into central roles in new stories in hopes that their presence will conceal or at the very least distract people from weak writing. We have to watch them grow old, decrepit, and eventually end up being marginalized by the gradual introduction of new characters or killed off in a pathetic attempt to provide some pathos for a boring story. Just look at what Robotech did with the Shadow Chronicles... they dragged back a bunch of characters from the Macross Saga as the core selling point of the series, but they're all old, washed-up, and changes in appearance and characterization left them feeling unfamiliar and unwelcome, like a stranger sneaking into your house thinly disguised as your best friend. Then they proceeded to reduce Rick Hunter to a witless stooge, turn Lisa into a sniveling whiner who gets incapacitated after three panels, turn Minmei into a brain-dead bimbo princess who needs the hero to rescue her (which he doesn't bother doing for like, a year... lol), leaving Exedore and Breetai as doddering old men (with male pattern baldness no less) who get killed for no reason other than to demonstrate the gravity (pun very much intended) of the Haydonite threat.

More is better if the writing is good, in this case the sentinels was better than TSC... no doubt about it, however it still had a weak story. I did like the character designs, maybe it's the 80s cartoons tard in me I'm not sure, but I liked them and was upset to see that series never being completed. just skipping it trying to do a whole new story aka robotech 3000. I believe that could of been decent, its just the CG animation of that time was crap... like playstation crap though I suspect they were going for something similar like Reboot? Anyway the only to make any continuation successful is for the story and ideas to be good enough to sell it. And I can understand not taking that risk because of fear of having it fail, but you never know unless you try.

Edited November 18, 2009 by HappyPenguins

[VFTF1]

I'm pretty sure at that time there was a demand for more robotech, which is why the sentinels exist in the first place.

I'm happy that line came up, Happy P.

See - this is a good lesson for all: just because there's demand for more of something - maybe it isn't productive to rush more of something out too quickly?

I mean, I think - I can't know for certain - that there was always a pretty big demand for more Macross in Japan, but they didn't tend to be rushing out series every new year. They took their time, and when they did present a Macross to the public, it had been worked on for quite a while, likely undergone numerous changes, and was well thought out.

Result?

STAYING POWER.

The same can be said for the majority of excellent anime that were produced over the past decades and to this day people watch them on Youtube. That is, you see, another thing - in my opinion - that the internet will change.

I remember reading in Robotech Art III that HG was rushing to get Robotech produced and syndicated because there was this general rush in the market to capitalize on the cartoon/toys formulae - and you had Transformers, He-Man, GI Joe and a host of other shows duking it out with eachother for prime time, and you really had to get Robotech out there and not dilly dally over the details.

Nowadays, however, a new anime or cartoon NOT ONLY has to compete with whatever other new things are on TV... but it actually has to compete with EVERYTHING that came before too.

Because If I think the new Transformers series sucks, I'm just gonna go on Youtube to watch the old one. If I don't like some new anime, I can go watch Gunbuster or Ideon or an old Gundam series.

It's all there - at peoples' finger tips 24/7 - and it competes with anything new.

This means that the "rush" to syndication is no longer justified because what is more important than getting your cartoon on TV is making a GOOD cartoon.

Robotech didn't do that in the 80s, which is exactly why it sputters like a Soviet car right now rather than having any momentum.

Because say what you want about how cheesy lots of its' competitors were, but the fact remains that Transformers was an artistic masterpiece in comparisson - its' three seasons were actually connected, made consciously, and there was a lot of continuity in the cartoon (not to mention the comic).

Hm. There, see, I can say nice things about Transformers after all.

Anyways - Robotech's real legacy, IMO, is in the novels and the role playing games.

It is seldom mentioned even in this thread just how awesome the Role Playing game was. Is that because I am the only person in the universe who played it? Or could it be because Robotech was not on TV when I was a kid, but it WAS in the bookstores (novels) and in hobby shops (role playing game) and I primarily remember it fondly as a Role Playing Game?

Anyways - that was really awesome because it added a level of realism and imaginative adventure that you couldn't get from just passively watching a cartoon.

But the Role Playing games are deader than the Robotech cartoon it seems, and the cartoon wasn't very good to begin with. The novels - for all their faults surely the high point of Robotech lore - have been retconned and gutted by the powers that be.

They put all their dice on Shadow Chronicles and it fell flat because it was building on something that had little staying power anyways.

Robotech is NOT, after all, on any serious individual's "must see" list of anime.

Robotech, if anything, is rather a historical curiosity. It's kind of like a stage in the evolution of the cartoon market in the USA - and given that, to my mind, it is the only real known case of a company chopping together different shows and changing them radically - then wouldn't it be safe to say that it is an example to others of how not to go about things?

In any event - this one thing keeps coming back to haunt Robotech - and it won't stop - ever. Namely, the fact that it bypasses the literary and artistic intention of its' parts, which are not related to eachother and which belong to seperate universes. In no uncommon terms - it is a lie. A hack job.

And if that was supposed to be some kind of "vehicle" for bringing anime to America then it demonstrates, IMO, just how LOW of an estimation of the American market the Japanese have.

I mean - it must.

I can't see how they'd agree to that hack job except that they never cared what Americans thought of anime and looked at it purely financially - ok, this guy wants to buy three anime and take them to some country we don't care about and make some lame show out of them. Fine. Happens all the time. Just leave the money at the door and go have your fun.

Thankfully, nowadays with the internet, the rest of the world can just enjoy Japanese anime as is.

And I think the Japanese are much happier with being able to speak directly to a global audience, with not having to "westernize" their anime - with the fact that as it stands it is loved by people all over the world just fine. And that now they respect foriegn views on the subject a bit more - because those foriegners do not need a filter in the form of HG or anybody else to give them the anime they desire to see.

Pete

(if you think that's a long post, be thankful I don't drink coffee in the morning!)

[HappyPenguins]

I'm happy that line came up, Happy P.

See - this is a good lesson for all: just because there's demand for more of something - maybe it isn't productive to rush more of something out too quickly?

I mean, I think - I can't know for certain - that there was always a pretty big demand for more Macross in Japan, but they didn't tend to be rushing out series every new year. They took their time, and when they did present a Macross to the public, it had been worked on for quite a while, likely undergone numerous changes, and was well thought out.

Result?

STAYING POWER.

The same can be said for the majority of excellent anime that were produced over the past decades and to this day people watch them on Youtube. That is, you see, another thing - in my opinion - that the internet will change.

I remember reading in Robotech Art III that HG was rushing to get Robotech produced and syndicated because there was this general rush in the market to capitalize on the cartoon/toys formulae - and you had Transformers, He-Man, GI Joe and a host of other shows duking it out with eachother for prime time, and you really had to get Robotech out there and not dilly dally over the details.

Nowadays, however, a new anime or cartoon NOT ONLY has to compete with whatever other new things are on TV... but it actually has to compete with EVERYTHING that came before too.

Because If I think the new Transformers series sucks, I'm just gonna go on Youtube to watch the old one. If I don't like some new anime, I can go watch Gunbuster or Ideon or an old Gundam series.

It's all there - at peoples' finger tips 24/7 - and it competes with anything new.

This means that the "rush" to syndication is no longer justified because what is more important than getting your cartoon on TV is making a GOOD cartoon.

Robotech didn't do that in the 80s, which is exactly why it sputters like a Soviet car right now rather than having any momentum.

Because say what you want about how cheesy lots of its' competitors were, but the fact remains that Transformers was an artistic masterpiece in comparisson - its' three seasons were actually connected, made consciously, and there was a lot of continuity in the cartoon (not to mention the comic).

Hm. There, see, I can say nice things about Transformers after all.

Anyways - Robotech's real legacy, IMO, is in the novels and the role playing games.

It is seldom mentioned even in this thread just how awesome the Role Playing game was. Is that because I am the only person in the universe who played it? Or could it be because Robotech was not on TV when I was a kid, but it WAS in the bookstores (novels) and in hobby shops (role playing game) and I primarily remember it fondly as a Role Playing Game?

Anyways - that was really awesome because it added a level of realism and imaginative adventure that you couldn't get from just passively watching a cartoon.

But the Role Playing games are deader than the Robotech cartoon it seems, and the cartoon wasn't very good to begin with. The novels - for all their faults surely the high point of Robotech lore - have been retconned and gutted by the powers that be.

They put all their dice on Shadow Chronicles and it fell flat because it was building on something that had little staying power anyways.

Robotech is NOT, after all, on any serious individual's "must see" list of anime.

Robotech, if anything, is rather a historical curiosity. It's kind of like a stage in the evolution of the cartoon market in the USA - and given that, to my mind, it is the only real known case of a company chopping together different shows and changing them radically - then wouldn't it be safe to say that it is an example to others of how not to go about things?

In any event - this one thing keeps coming back to haunt Robotech - and it won't stop - ever. Namely, the fact that it bypasses the literary and artistic intention of its' parts, which are not related to eachother and which belong to seperate universes. In no uncommon terms - it is a lie. A hack job.

And if that was supposed to be some kind of "vehicle" for bringing anime to America then it demonstrates, IMO, just how LOW of an estimation of the American market the Japanese have.

I mean - it must.

I can't see how they'd agree to that hack job except that they never cared what Americans thought of anime and looked at it purely financially - ok, this guy wants to buy three anime and take them to some country we don't care about and make some lame show out of them. Fine. Happens all the time. Just leave the money at the door and go have your fun.

Thankfully, nowadays with the internet, the rest of the world can just enjoy Japanese anime as is.

And I think the Japanese are much happier with being able to speak directly to a global audience, with not having to "westernize" their anime - with the fact that as it stands it is loved by people all over the world just fine. And that now they respect foriegn views on the subject a bit more - because those foriegners do not need a filter in the form of HG or anybody else to give them the anime they desire to see.

Pete

(if you think that's a long post, be thankful I don't drink coffee in the morning!)

Yeah the supply and demand of more robotech at the time was most likely why the story was weak, because it was rushed and how can anything be good if its rushed?

Although it didnt work out so well, because the series became too expensive to make so they just took what footage was made and slapped it together in the form of a movie, while the rest of the story telling was left to the comics and novels. While I may not know everything, I'm just going by what I know and what I've observed.

I didnt grow up in the 80s like most of the fans did, but judging from the amount of merchandise advertised on the back of the comics, I'd say at one point robotech was a hit and there was a demand that just couldn't be met.

[VFTF1]

judging from the amount of merchandise advertised on the back of the comics, I'd say at one point robotech was a hit and there was a demand that just couldn't be met.

the series became too expensive to make so they just took what footage was made and slapped it together in the form of a movie, while the rest of the story telling was left to the comics and novels.

Hm.

The armchair economist in me just smiled.

If there was truly a high demand for it, then it would have been met. As such, demand is always infinite - since all of us want an infinite amount. But demand is always measure relative to cost/price - which is the best measure of the reality of scarcity that we have. And of course as the price goes up, so the per-unit demand is lower. As the price receeds, per-unit demand is higher.

Now by your own testimony, the series was "too expensive" for HG to sustain - question is - why? I mean, cost wise, it was really no different from other cartoons of the time which were able to go ahead and be made.

So what made it "too expensive" ?

In my view - it had to be the low demand. That is to say, there was too little demand at the specific price point where supplying that demand could have been cost-effective and therefore profitable.

I keep repeating it, but I will note it again: I NEVER once as a child came across Robotech on TV. NOT ONCE. EVER. It was not syndicated in Cambridge, MASS and if it was - then please - if you or anyone you know lived in Cambridge MASS at the time - please let me know where in the blazes YOU saw it - because I watched cartoons every morning before the school bus came and in the afternoon after school and on Saturday mornings and seriously - I would have seen it...

So it was actually not even universally syndicated/distributed in the USA.

Now there is a debate about the extent to which supply creates and sustains demand or vice-versa. But whatever the particular case for Robotech - it just wasn't happening.

I'm sure that Matchbox's rather sub-par merchandise didn't help either.

I dunno..oh wait . yes I do...

Yeah the supply and demand of more robotech at the time was most likely why the story was weak, because it was rushed and how can anything be good if its rushed?

Let me go get my Robotech Art III and quote something please - now this is about Senitnels, of course, but I think that's what we're talking about, since it was rushed and ultimately crammed into some kind of stinky special feature wasn't it?

In any event - from Robotech Art III:

Ah crap.... I can't find it...must be upstairs...if anybody has it maybe they can find the exact quote... But it says in there, at the beginning when they're explaing the production history, that the exchange rate changed radically and that their contract was in Yen, and that suddenly they had to pay more USD than they initially thought.

Now this is technically plausible, but it could also just be another HG cop out. Who knows.

If it is true - then their argument is basically: there was huge demand for Robotech, but then the exchange rate changed and we failed.

I don't buy it.

If the huge demand had been there and they suddenly came up short a couple million bucks or whatever then that's what banks are for. It is highly unlikely that they wouldn't have been able to secure credit to make up for the exchange rate collapse if Robotech were indeed ravingly popular - SOMEBODY would have given them a loan to make money off of that popularity.

Pete

[Gubaba]

Yeah the supply and demand of more robotech at the time was most likely why the story was weak, because it was rushed and how can anything be good if its rushed?

Although it didnt work out so well, because the series became too expensive to make so they just took what footage was made and slapped it together in the form of a movie, while the rest of the story telling was left to the comics and novels. While I may not know everything, I'm just going by what I know and what I've observed.

I didnt grow up in the 80s like most of the fans did, but judging from the amount of merchandise advertised on the back of the comics, I'd say at one point robotech was a hit and there was a demand that just couldn't be met.

I don't know about that, really...as I've said before, all during Robotech's run (which I believe started in February of '85, maybe March or April) all that was available were the Japanese toys and models. There were also the Robotech Defender model kits (which pre-dated the series), but they had about 15 models, only three of which were from Macross (the rest were from Dougram, and one from Orguss). Later, they started coming out with smaller kits from Macross, and eventually came out with the SDF-1, but that was later. The first Robotech toys I got were at Christmas '85...some of the small, die-cast Destroids, and the "Joke Machine" Valkyries, the little Super-Deformed versions of Valkyries that were egg-shaped. The action figures came MUCH later, and looked crappy (as you well know). I never got any, and I don't think any of my friends did, either. Sentinels was scheduled to start in Fall of '86, but of course it never materialized.

And that was it for Robotech toys. The Comico comics continued (I stopped getting all of them around issue 6 of each series, however), and the novels started coming in '87. The Sentinels videotape came out in '87 or '88, and was available only through mail order.

And then, in the '90s, a bunch of uninteresting novels and comic books, and that was it. Yes, there were many different comic series, but that's because each series was only three or four issues long (except Sentinels, I believe).

So no, I don't think there was ever a glut. The cartoon was more mature than others, but the toys were very kiddie (hell, I even joined the fan club, hoping to find out more information about Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada. What I got was a cheap cardboard sheet thanking me for joining the RDF, signed "Rick Hunter" and "Lisa Hayes." I felt insulted and patronized, and I was like, what...eleven? It MUST have been extraordinarily condescending to insult and eleven-year-old).

[HappyPenguins]

I don't know about that, really...as I've said before, all during Robotech's run (which I believe started in February of '85, maybe March or April) all that was available were the Japanese toys and models. There were also the Robotech Defender model kits (which pre-dated the series), but they had about 15 models, only three of which were from Macross (the rest were from Dougram, and one from Orguss). Later, they started coming out with smaller kits from Macross, and eventually came out with the SDF-1, but that was later. The first Robotech toys I got were at Christmas '85...some of the small, die-cast Destroids, and the "Joke Machine" Valkyries, the little Super-Deformed versions of Valkyries that were egg-shaped. The action figures came MUCH later, and looked crappy (as you well know). I never got any, and I don't think any of my friends did, either. Sentinels was scheduled to start in Fall of '86, but of course it never materialized.

And that was it for Robotech toys. The Comico comics continued (I stopped getting all of them around issue 6 of each series, however), and the novels started coming in '87. The Sentinels videotape came out in '87 or '88, and was available only through mail order.

And then, in the '90s, a bunch of uninteresting novels and comic books, and that was it. Yes, there were many different comic series, but that's because each series was only three or four issues long (except Sentinels, I believe).

So no, I don't think there was ever a glut. The cartoon was more mature than others, but the toys were very kiddie (hell, I even joined the fan club, hoping to find out more information about Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada. What I got was a cheap cardboard sheet thanking me for joining the RDF, signed "Rick Hunter" and "Lisa Hayes." I felt insulted and patronized, and I was like, what...eleven? It MUST have been extraordinarily condescending to insult and eleven-year-old).

Actually from what I saw of the merchandise on the back of the comics, there were party favors, clothing, coloring books, stickers, just a bunch of crap even though the quality was low and cheap looking.... figures

but yeah just by looking at that, I could tell it was popular at one point, but then it was marketed at kids so they didn't know it was made up of three different animes or understand what anime was really. Granted it was not as successful as Transformers or the other series of that time, it still had some popularity.

Too bad the robotech museum site is no longer online, I believe it had all of the merchandise posted on it.

Edited November 18, 2009 by HappyPenguins

[VFTF1]

Well, bringing back the witch-hunting suggestion from an earlier post...

I'm shocked! Shocked (but not really) to find that all this time, Gubaba - translator of Japanese Macross, sage of Nanase's boobs, was a CARD CARRYING MEMBER OF THE ROBOTECH FAN CLUB!!

Although, I guess even at 11 years old, you had good sensibilities insofar as your reaction to what you got out of it

Pete

[Gubaba]

Actually from what I saw of the merchandise on the back of the comics, there were party favors, clothing, coloring books, stickers, just a bunch of crap even though the quality was low and cheap looking.... figures

but yeah just by looking at that, I could tell it was popular at one point, but then it was marketed at kids so they didn't know it was made up of three different animes or understand what anime was really. Granted it was not as successful as Transformers or the other series of that time, it still had some popularity.

Too bad the robotech museum site is no longer online, I believe it had all of the merchandise posted on it.

CRAP, THAT'S RIGHT! THE COLORING BOOKS!!!

I just did a search, and check it out:

My soul weeps at these pages.

But yeah...too kiddie, especially for a cartoon that bored kiddies to tears (I remember most of the other kids in school deciding that the show had too much love story BS, not enough giant robots fighting. Voltron, they claimed, was much better).

Well, bringing back the witch-hunting suggestion from an earlier post...

I'm shocked! Shocked (but not really) to find that all this time, Gubaba - translator of Japanese Macross, sage of Nanase's boobs, was a CARD CARRYING MEMBER OF THE ROBOTECH FAN CLUB!!

Although, I guess even at 11 years old, you had good sensibilities insofar as your reaction to what you got out of it

Pete

Technically, I don't think I ever "carried" the card anywhere, except to one of my drawers, were I put it away for a while, and then eventually threw it out (at least, I guess I did. I have no recollection of doing so, but I sure don't have it anymore.)

[Freiflug88]

CRAP, THAT'S RIGHT! THE COLORING BOOKS!!!

I just did a search, and check it out:

My soul weeps at these pages.

As Claudia would probably say: Quit weeping Misa! Did you really expect that chevonist to listen to your suggestion to move out of the way of the main gun in the first place?

[Einherjar]

Now by your own testimony, the series was "too expensive" for HG to sustain - question is - why? I mean, cost wise, it was really no different from other cartoons of the time which were able to go ahead and be made.

So what made it "too expensive" ?

In my view - it had to be the low demand. That is to say, there was too little demand at the specific price point where supplying that demand could have been cost-effective and therefore profitable.

Just look at Harmony Gold back during that time. Prior to the Sentinels they only dealt with pre-made animation that they bought cheap and spent their money "translating" and editing for U.S. audiences. They probably had no real experience of the process of making (Japanese style) animation back then. What they did have were ideas on how to expand a successful product and money to try to achieve it. Unfortunately, because they were now trying to create original content for their own needs, they couldn't approach it the same way they did originally. They now had to invest REAL money and take an active part of overseeing work to get a production done. I assume they thought waving a wad of dollars and dictating orders from afar was enough.

They really had no business trying to enter the animation business for themselves because they were ill prepared to commit to it.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Einherjar

[VFTF1]

Why are there 'z's to be filled in on Boldoza's sleeve? They serve no purpose...

Pete

[Keith]

I actually think Hikaru would be the one to quit and take care of the kids. Think about hit, he's never really been cut out for command, isn't a particularly exceptional pilot, and no matter what, Misa would wear the pants in the family.