HG and Robotech Debates

[VFTF1]

Geez guys, just pretend the witch was Scottish or something.... Or maybe you can work your way back to normalcy; it could turn out that it's just a plastic dildo and if you remove it, everything is ok?

Wait...that's not helping...

I need to shut up now

Pete

[Robelwell202]

After several years of trying to find a Robotech fan capable of forming a cogent argument for why anyone should watch Robtoech and meeting with a 100% failure rate, we've got more than enough information to conclude that this grand experiment is a fool's errand. It's not without reason that we've been unable to find a compelling reason to watch Robotech... we've been looking for something that doesn't exist. For something like two decades now, the only things keeping Robotech afloat as a franchise have been the nostalgia and gullibility of a few people who just don't want to let go of a few fond childhood memories.

When you examine the answers we've received to our inquiries so far, it's all variations on the same couple of themes: nostalgia; ignorance; an irrational hatred of subtitles that more often than not seems to stem from borderline illiteracy; and a seething, unfocused hatred of Macross motivated by the fear that if they watch Macross and end up liking it that they'll somehow be tainting their rosy childhood memories of Robotech.

ACK!!!

What catagory do I fall under, then?

I mean, I write a story that's loosely realted to the show, and now I'm totally confused.

[Jasonc]

I don't completely invalidate Robotech at all, and label it a bad show by any means. What it did was give a lot of people a love for anime, especially mecha, and brought a lot of people to these boards. Robotech had it's merits. Whatreally is the dividing line, is the incarnations post 1990, that everything goes down hill. You can probably date it earlier, but I'm just going off quick memory here. Anyways, Robotech, and the way it's been moving, and treating its fans, should just go quietly in the night. Even the age when Robotech was pounding out comics all over the place is better than what is going on over there now.

[taksraven]

Well, whaddya know? VFTF1 and Maverick_LSC found something they can agree on!

Robotech at the forefront of a new era in online entertainment.

Thanks for that. A thousand posts by MEMO, generally answering himself. He really has a hard-on for Warners these days. I would like to rip a caps-lock key off a keyboard and shove it up his arse.*

Taksraven

*(Note: This is a joke threat. I am not really planning on carrying out any violence against MEMODOMINION or any other members of Robotech.com and I do not support or endorse anybody else attempting to carry out similar actions.)

[VFTF1]

*(Note: This is a joke threat. I am not really planning on carrying out any violence against MEMODOMINION or any other members of Robotech.com and I do not support or endorse anybody else attempting to carry out similar actions.)

But you are threatening to rip the caps-lock off a keyboard - and THAT, even as a joke - is a serious offence!

Pete

[Einherjar]

ACK!!!

What catagory do I fall under, then?

I mean, I write a story that's loosely realted to the show, and now I'm totally confused.

It might be interchangeable maybe, with some adjustments it could work with either Robotech or Macross. Plus, you can upgrade the Destroids to Cheyenne Mk IIs and a mobile Monster.

http://www.new-un-spacy.com/macrossf/destroid-cheyenneii.htm

http://www.new-un-spacy.com/macrossf/destroid-work.htm

http://www.new-un-spacy.com/macrossga/vb-6-konig.htm

Edited November 16, 2009 by Einherjar

[taksraven]

But you are threatening to rip the caps-lock off a keyboard - and THAT, even as a joke - is a serious offence!

Pete

Taksraven

Edited November 16, 2009 by taksraven

[Wanzerfan]

Thanks for that. A thousand posts by MEMO, generally answering himself. He really has a hard-on for Warners these days. I would like to rip a caps-lock key off a keyboard and shove it up his arse.*

Taksraven

*(Note: This is a joke threat. I am not really planning on carrying out any violence against MEMODOMINION or any other members of Robotech.com and I do not support or endorse anybody else attempting to carry out similar actions.)

I have the perfect place to let off your pent up frustrations. Go here.

[taksraven]

There is some footage linked over at the Macross News thread of Shoji Kawamori being interviewed in the US (Hawaii, I think) by Pali & Sachi.

This got me thinking. (It happens rarely, I know)

The interview also includes footage of Macross Frontier (It might have other Macross stuff, I'm not watching the whole thing) Now since this is an interview recorded on US soil and using Frontier footage, shouldn't HG serve a cease and desist notice on those who put the interview together as well as Youtube for carrying the interview.

NOW, more broadly thinking. Since Youtube is primarily a US company, shouldn't HG be pursuing them in general for every little bit of footage of Macross they have on their service that is not authorised Robotech stuff? Is HG asleep at the wheel again by not pursuing this clear violation of their ownership of Macross rights in the US?

Seriously, I know that this is never going to happen but it shows how full of shite HG is. Going after that Mechwarrior stuff is them really being full of crap.

Taksraven

[Seto Kaiba]

What catagory do I fall under, then?

You're a tough one to classify, since nominally your point of interest in Robotech is something directly from Macross.

Thanks for that. A thousand posts by MEMO, generally answering himself. He really has a hard-on for Warners these days. I would like to rip a caps-lock key off a keyboard and shove it up his arse.*

No kidding, I'd say MEMO had taken leave of his senses, but that would imply that he'd ever had sense to begin with, and all evidence points to that not being the case. Just like Maverick, MEMO is absolutely convinced that Warner is ultimately behind every move Harmony Gold has been making of late... he tried to convince everyone on RobotechX that Warner was behind Robotech being put up on Hulu, claiming that Warner owned part of the site and was leveraging that to get RT up where it could get better exposure.

[Robelwell202]

It might be interchangeable maybe, with some adjustments it could work with either Robotech or Macross. Plus, you can upgrade the Destroids to Cheyenne Mk IIs and a mobile Monster.

http://www.new-un-spacy.com/macrossf/destroid-cheyenneii.htm

http://www.new-un-spacy.com/macrossf/destroid-work.htm

http://www.new-un-spacy.com/macrossga/vb-6-konig.htm

If I ever become completely ostricised by the RT fandom (A distinct possibility, as it's becoming more and more polarized), I may go ahead and swap the story around, and make it a UN-Spacy version instead of RT. The reason I'm using the RT story-line world is because I'm more familiar with it. I don't have any kind of subbed version of the original SDF-Mac. Now, assuming I could get a set of those, it'd be a different story. With how I see things at HG, though, I refuse to pander to them and get a DVD version. (HINT HINT: Anyone know where a good version miight be? BTW: I'm dealing with torrential rain today!)

As for changing the mecha up, I wouldn't do it. My personal favorite mecha of the Macross line-up is the original Tomahawk, and it would stay. That's the reason I wrote the story in the first place.

[Funkenstein]

I can't tell what you're asking for.

[Gubaba]

If I ever become completely ostricised by the RT fandom (A distinct possibility, as it's becoming more and more polarized), I may go ahead and swap the story around, and make it a UN-Spacy version instead of RT. The reason I'm using the RT story-line world is because I'm more familiar with it. I don't have any kind of subbed version of the original SDF-Mac. Now, assuming I could get a set of those, it'd be a different story. With how I see things at HG, though, I refuse to pander to them and get a DVD version. (HINT HINT: Anyone know where a good version miight be? BTW: I'm dealing with torrential rain today!)

As for changing the mecha up, I wouldn't do it. My personal favorite mecha of the Macross line-up is the original Tomahawk, and it would stay. That's the reason I wrote the story in the first place.

PM'd you.

[Gubaba]

I don't completely invalidate Robotech at all, and label it a bad show by any means. What it did was give a lot of people a love for anime, especially mecha, and brought a lot of people to these boards. Robotech had it's merits. Whatreally is the dividing line, is the incarnations post 1990, that everything goes down hill. You can probably date it earlier, but I'm just going off quick memory here. Anyways, Robotech, and the way it's been moving, and treating its fans, should just go quietly in the night. Even the age when Robotech was pounding out comics all over the place is better than what is going on over there now.

Hmm...I find it hard to really classify Robotech's influence. For me at the time (and the people around me), Robotech was good enough that it whetted our appetite for more. Star Blazers would've, too, except that at that time, I was too young to really DO anything about it, and VCR's weren't as common in 1980 as they were in 1985.

But, as I've detailed before, Robotech annoyed me because I knew they were changing things, but I didn't know what they were changing exactly (I remember explaining to a friend, back in 1985, that the three "generations" were not connected, and he said "But at the end of the Robotech Masters part, the Flower of Life calls the Invid!" I said, "They must've changed that from the original version." He countered with, "So what happened originally?" and I couldn't answer).

As such, most of my friends and I got into anime as a REACTION AGAINST Robotech. Negative influence is still influence, I guess. Everyone was saying that Megazone was going to become the Robotech movie. One of my friends got a hold of it, and made copies for all of us. We watched it, and all came to the same conclusion...Why mess with it? Why change it so that it fits into Robotech's story? That wouldn't make it any better. We saw DYRL, and fell in love with it. Some of my friend wanted Harmony Gold to release it. I didn't. I just wanted to know what everyone was saying, and that was it. I didn't want to hear Tony Oliver and Reba West doing voices for it, I liked it as-is.

(At one point, I actually toyed with the idea of writing to Harmony Gold, asking if they could send me subtitled VHS tapes of Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada so I could see the originals. It never occurred to me that A) they probably wouldn't go through all that trouble just for one kid, and B) even if they did, they probably wouldn't be willing to do it for free. In retrospect, I must've been a pretty dumb kid.)

I wanted the REAL stuff, not some retooled, reedited version that played fast and loose with the original series. We watched Zeta Gundam and Dunbine and L-Gaim, and made a game out of "What would Harmony Gold do to mess these series up?" (I don't remember many of the answers...I do remember that L-Gaim and Dunbine would have been combined, and that Haro would be renamed "Orbie").

Robotech became a joke to us.

Once the Sentinels was released, one of my friends ACTUALLY BOUGHT IT, and we all sat around laughing at it. Then we watched Flashback 2012 for the umpteenth time to see some REAL Macross.

So...did Robotech influence us to get into anime? Sure. But by the end of 1985, we'd already passed it by.

[RDClip]

I find it funny to think that Robotech fans think that their franchise is at all relevant in today's anime scene. I was born a year after RT aired and became an anime fan by 1997 and a huge Macross fan in 2003, never once between 1997 and 2003 did i hear about Robotech or it being important in anime. I heard much about Macross on many anime sites i frequented during that time, i saw Macross+ on TV in '97, but don't remember Robotech ever airing here in Canada or people talking about it seriously in anime fandom.

And really it comes from HG for constantly trying to prove, unsuccessfully, that their hastily stitched together Frankenstein of a series is somehow a grand artistic achievement and a great upgrade of the originals. It would be like some people claiming that the early 90's dub of Sailor Moon, with its Americanized content, is better than the original japanese version (you should watch it, its awesome)

Seems to me that all the fanatical behaviour, aggression, and close minded ignorance exemplified by the "leaders" of Robotech fandom is just a shroud because they don't really have any real or rational defenses to their, for all intents and purposes, dead franchise. Its common knowledge that bully-like behaviour comes from inner self-esteem issues. If they weren't so offensive to Macross and it's fans, i would feel sorry for them.

[Gubaba]

I find it funny to think that Robotech fans think that their franchise is at all relevant in today's anime scene. I was born a year after RT aired and became an anime fan by 1997 and a huge Macross fan in 2003, never once between 1997 and 2003 did i hear about Robotech or it being important in anime. I heard much about Macross on many anime sites i frequented during that time, i saw Macross+ on TV in '97, but don't remember Robotech ever airing here in Canada or people talking about it seriously in anime fandom.

And really it comes from HG for constantly trying to prove, unsuccessfully, that their hastily stitched together Frankenstein of a series is somehow a grand artistic achievement and a great upgrade of the originals. It would be like some people claiming that the early 90's dub of Sailor Moon, with its Americanized content, is better than the original japanese version (you should watch it, its awesome)

Seems to me that all the fanatical behaviour, aggression, and close minded ignorance exemplified by the "leaders" of Robotech fandom is just a shroud because they don't really have any real or rational defenses to their, for all intents and purposes, dead franchise. Its common knowledge that bully-like behaviour comes from inner self-esteem issues. If they weren't so offensive to Macross and it's fans, i would feel sorry for them.

To be fair, there's been a lot of offense on both sides. There are "good" Robotech fans and "bad" Robotech fans, just as there are "good" Macross fans and "bad" Macross fans (and I myself been labelled the latter by no less an authority than Shadow Chronicles fan extraordinaire Pizza the Hutt).

But yeah...Capt. Christopher Donovan pointed out that people like Einherjar and Seto are just as bad as people like Memo. I don't buy it, for two reasons: first, Einherjar and Seto stick to the facts. Second, even if they didn't, even if they were as loony as can be, claiming that Macross is the most popular anime in the world, and five major film studios are fighting over the rights as we speak, or other such nonsense, they (and none of us here) have a position of any kind of authority as an official, Big West-sanctioned Macross website. No one here represents Macross in the same way that Memo represents HG.

(Sorry, just had to get that off my chest.)

Anyway, I wouldn't call Robotech dead yet, but Shadow Chronicles has been divisive, and I don't think it has gotten the wider audience HG wanted to bring in. But Robotech IS divisive...it has ALWAYS been divisive. In anime circles, it has gained no ground. But clearly, it is still well-respected in other science-fiction circles. Let's face it: for a lot of people, anime has a stigma attached to it, a stigma of tentacle rape, moe porn, and other distasteful things. Robotech, I believe, allows people to enjoy an anime without being "an anime fan."

Because Robotech is "normal." And normal is nice.

[D.D. Ivanov]

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So...what was the point of copying and pasting a list into his topic, WHICH IS HIS FIRST POST IN AGES TO NOT BE IN ALL CAPS?

SEE THE CONNECTIONS WB HAS AND HOW IT CAN HELP ROBOTECH?

Oh.

...

That's it? Sports Illustrated, Atari, Life Magazine, Bugs Bunny, People Magazine, Entertainment Weekly, AOL, George W. Bush, CNN, Wedding Magazine, and Netscape are going to help Robotech?

And Beltane, be careful...

YOU DISAGREE WITH MEMO. ROBOTECH IS AT FOREFRONT OF NEW ERA. IT WILL BE BIG HIT. AND FORCE TRANSFORMERS 3 OUT EARLY.

I USE BANHAMMER NOW. BYE.

[Einherjar]

He better be careful about those associations, particularly with CNN and CNN Headline News. If people ever got interested in the colorful history of Robotech when the movie comes around, they might be doing some exposing of their own. You know "Keeping Them Honest."

You prepared to get grilled by Anderson Cooper, Wolf Blitzer, and Larry King for a show with an unusual background?

As for changing the mecha up, I wouldn't do it. My personal favorite mecha of the Macross line-up is the original Tomahawk, and it would stay. That's the reason I wrote the story in the first place.

Even better, there's still a place or use for the VF-1 and Monster 50 years in the future here. There's probably a place for an original Tomahawk in the universe as well. Things like that don't just disappear after one generation.

Edited November 17, 2009 by Einherjar

[VFTF1]

There is some footage linked over at the Macross News thread of Shoji Kawamori being interviewed in the US (Hawaii, I think) by Pali & Sachi.

This got me thinking. (It happens rarely, I know)

The interview also includes footage of Macross Frontier (It might have other Macross stuff, I'm not watching the whole thing) Now since this is an interview recorded on US soil and using Frontier footage, shouldn't HG serve a cease and desist notice on those who put the interview together as well as Youtube for carrying the interview.

NOW, more broadly thinking. Since Youtube is primarily a US company, shouldn't HG be pursuing them in general for every little bit of footage of Macross they have on their service that is not authorised Robotech stuff? Is HG asleep at the wheel again by not pursuing this clear violation of their ownership of Macross rights in the US?

Seriously, I know that this is never going to happen but it shows how full of shite HG is. Going after that Mechwarrior stuff is them really being full of crap.

Taksraven

That is an extraordinarily good point.

And of course HG cannot bar Kawamori from coming to America and talking about Macross and showing samples of his work on Macross and advertising Macross because Macross is not Robotech.

Great point.

and he said "But at the end of the Robotech Masters part, the Flower of Life calls the Invid!" I said, "They must've changed that from the original version." He countered with, "So what happened originally?" and I couldn't answer).

And I imagine

[VFTF1]

There is some footage linked over at the Macross News thread of Shoji Kawamori being interviewed in the US (Hawaii, I think) by Pali & Sachi.

This got me thinking. (It happens rarely, I know)

The interview also includes footage of Macross Frontier (It might have other Macross stuff, I'm not watching the whole thing) Now since this is an interview recorded on US soil and using Frontier footage, shouldn't HG serve a cease and desist notice on those who put the interview together as well as Youtube for carrying the interview.

NOW, more broadly thinking. Since Youtube is primarily a US company, shouldn't HG be pursuing them in general for every little bit of footage of Macross they have on their service that is not authorised Robotech stuff? Is HG asleep at the wheel again by not pursuing this clear violation of their ownership of Macross rights in the US?

Seriously, I know that this is never going to happen but it shows how full of shite HG is. Going after that Mechwarrior stuff is them really being full of crap.

Taksraven

That is an extraordinarily good point.

And of course HG cannot bar Kawamori from coming to America and talking about Macross and showing samples of his work on Macross and advertising Macross because Macross is not Robotech.

Great point.

and he said "But at the end of the Robotech Masters part, the Flower of Life calls the Invid!" I said, "They must've changed that from the original version." He countered with, "So what happened originally?" and I couldn't answer).

And I imagine that up to this day, there are people who, in spite of the internet, still think like your friend did back then and have trouble getting an answer. They see Robotech, they "understand" the plot, and to them the notion that the three parts are NOT connected and could exist seperately and that indeed Macross is a totaly seperate entity that means something completely different to what they think it means is completely inconcievable.

To be fair, there's been a lot of offense on both sides. There are "good" Robotech fans and "bad" Robotech fans, just as there are "good" Macross fans and "bad" Macross fans

It might be because I am a relative noobie to all of this, but I have yet to be privy to witnessing "bad" Macross fans and one side of that "lot of offense on both sides" ....

But yeah...Capt. Christopher Donovan pointed out that people like Einherjar and Seto are just as bad as people like Memo. I don't buy it, for two reasons: first, Einherjar and Seto stick to the facts. Second, even if they didn't, even if they were as loony as can be, claiming that Macross is the most popular anime in the world, and five major film studios are fighting over the rights as we speak, or other such nonsense, they (and none of us here) have a position of any kind of authority as an official, Big West-sanctioned Macross website. No one here represents Macross in the same way that Memo represents HG.

Yes.

And what's more - please consider for a moment... think of any websites that you transact business on. Do you use a website for banking? (I do my banking via the internet). Do you buy things off the web?

Now imagine please that you go to do your banking on the web and instead of the regular bank website you have this: "WE WELCOMING YOU TO BANK OURS. GIVE US MONEY YOU NOW DO!"

Or let's not even stick with the internet...let's say you went to your favorite bookstore and there were signs everywhere that said "BUYING YOU SOME BOOKAS!" ...

My point is - while EVERYONE sometimes makes a typo, makes a mistake or says something dumb - nobody in their right mind would make typos, caps-lock and the zanny company line that seems to be the norm over there the...well...company line

Ah I dunno.

I was gonna write more - but I have to go to the bathroom, and that's more important than writing about HG and Robotech.

If I was writing about Macross 7 or something, then I'd fight the bladder, but as it is - one must have his priorities.

Pete

Bad to the Bone Macross Fan

[RDClip]

Anyway, I wouldn't call Robotech dead yet, but Shadow Chronicles has been divisive, and I don't think it has gotten the wider audience HG wanted to bring in. But Robotech IS divisive...it has ALWAYS been divisive. In anime circles, it has gained no ground. But clearly, it is still well-respected in other science-fiction circles. Let's face it: for a lot of people, anime has a stigma attached to it, a stigma of tentacle rape, moe porn, and other distasteful things. Robotech, I believe, allows people to enjoy an anime without being "an anime fan."

Because Robotech is "normal." And normal is nice.

Is that how their trying to sell RT, as a true sci-fi series? Sci-fi fans are just as weird and perverted as anime fans I can't see why it would be respected in any genre of fan following especially sci-fi where there are much better franchises. Still I don't buy it, HG still made SC in that Americanized faux-anime style that is all the rage now.

I do agree that RT:TSC didn't do much for to get new RT fans. It certainly wasn't structured to get new fans with a thin plot that doesn't do much to make a new view want to care about the story or its characters. Seems that it was a movie for fans and by fans of the series which doesn't do much to get new followers. If RT isn't dead it certainly is on life support.

So what happens to them when the people who are just around for just nostalgia sake all get bored or frustrated and leave? In today's entertainment market, you can't snatch many new fans based on a 25 year old show (especially one with as low quality as RT) If they want to succeed, they new a brand new story without the old characters and story. That's why Macross is such a success, it doesn't get boring with the same old characters doing the same old stuff in the same old place.

[Einherjar]

Let's face it: for a lot of people, anime has a stigma attached to it, a stigma of tentacle rape, moe porn, and other distasteful things. Robotech, I believe, allows people to enjoy an anime without being "an anime fan."

Because Robotech is "normal." And normal is nice.

But wait, didn't Robotech end up doing a lot of those distasteful things, and then some, in the expanded universe as well, particularly to Minmei? Sure, some of it might be "normal" for sci-fi in book form, but you got to wonder sometimes about some of the characterization and plot lines, "What the hell were they thinking?"

[VFTF1]

Anyway, I wouldn't call Robotech dead yet, but Shadow Chronicles has been divisive, and I don't think it has gotten the wider audience HG wanted to bring in. But Robotech IS divisive...it has ALWAYS been divisive. In anime circles, it has gained no ground. But clearly, it is still well-respected in other science-fiction circles. Let's face it: for a lot of people, anime has a stigma attached to it, a stigma of tentacle rape, moe porn, and other distasteful things. Robotech, I believe, allows people to enjoy an anime without being "an anime fan."

Because Robotech is "normal." And normal is nice

Ooo... another interesting point. First Taks makes one, now you. That's good. Brings life to the thread.

This is worth considering because, I noticed that Shadow Chronciles got some award for best science fiction animation of the year from some place in Arizona...wait let me google it...

Ok - yeah - here it is - best Sci-Fi at the Horror and Sci-Fi Film Festival in Tempe Arizona (http://animatedfilms.suite101.com/article.cfm/robotech_wins_award)

Now - I'm not going to get into how insignificant this award is because, in all truth, if MACROSS won an award like this, we wouldn't be pointing out how insignificant it is - we'd be saying "that's nice" and "good for them" -- because a group of people liked Macross and decided it was worthy of recognition - independent of whether that group of people were significant in the "industry" as a whole.

BUT - what I would like to consider is...why would anybody give them any kind of award? Even an "insignificant" one or at least a non-top tier one?

And I wonder - how many of the judges at that event KNEW that Robotech was actually a bootleg of three different anime put together?

I'm betting most of them were judging it on the merits of the story as it was, without any reference to its' past or the controversy surrounding Macross/Robotech.

And concievably, I could see them being swayed by the "surprising" and dramatic plot point of Ariel the invid-who-looks-like-a-human-porn-star being accepted into human society.

On this note - might I offer that it would be hard NOT to accept Ariel into human society and that all men dream of the chance to encounter an alien being who is meek and eager to please in order to prove that she is not evil, and also happens to be hot... at least Macross didn't tip toe around sexuality but instead had a lot of great fun with it - particularly as Milia goes (the scene where Max checks her out in his mind is priceless and to my mind, no body seems to be at all aware of how hot Ariel is in Shadow Chronicles. In walks this bodacious babe and everyone judges her on whether or not she's an invid and in the end - it's not her sex appeal that wins the REF over - no - it's her heroic actions.

Ble! What a lot of hog wash!

In Macross, it was Milia's sex appeal that won Max over - no doubt about it.

Max didn't wait to discern whether she would "join" her enemies, he didn't consider whether or not Milia was heroic or not - all he cared about was getting some - and securing that fine ass for a life time via marriage.

A base and low motive?

BUT THAT'S THE POINT!!

That's the point because it just goes to show that just like music and song and culture are inherent in people - even biogenetically engineered giants who live in a regimented military fashion - so too the sexual drive transcends all temporal political considerations and can bring even enemies together! That's how powerful sex is.

Now if this is "moe" or "dirty" then it's more a testimony to the pre-pubecent level of thought governing supposed adults who make these kind of distinctions in animated programing.

Because you see - Ariel DOES use sex appeal - like the majority of the Shadow Chronicles cast - she uses the most classic type of sex appeal to be found in American programing of this sort: namely implicit rather than explicit.

The REF guys don't notice Ariel's tits and ass enough to really do much about it, but WE THE AUDIENCE are EXPECTED to notice them just enough to at least keep watching.

It's the Megan Fox "eye candy" scheme.

And before you say "but Japanese anime has eye candy too" or even "Macross has eye candy too" - I submit to you - and repeat - that Milia's sexuality is not MERELY there to attract audience attention - it's ALSO and FOREMOST there because it actually SERVES the plot of the anime by demonstrating that sex, like culture, supercedes political differences and breaks down barriers between ostensible enemies.

And of course THAT is a prospect that seems t be TOO HORRIFIC for American audiences to grasp. MUSIC defeating war making is bad enough, but SEX?! Sexual attraction being more powerful than the desire to kill kill kill your enemy?

Oh no! That's moe!

Quick - get back to showing people shooting guns and slaughtering eachother!

Pete

[Gubaba]

Is that how their trying to sell RT, as a true sci-fi series? Sci-fi fans are just as weird and perverted as anime fans I can't see why it would be respected in any genre of fan following especially sci-fi where there are much better franchises. Still I don't buy it, HG still made SC in that Americanized faux-anime style that is all the rage now.

I do agree that RT:TSC didn't do much for to get new RT fans. It certainly wasn't structured to get new fans with a thin plot that doesn't do much to make a new view want to care about the story or its characters. Seems that it was a movie for fans and by fans of the series which doesn't do much to get new followers. If RT isn't dead it certainly is on life support.

So what happens to them when the people who are just around for just nostalgia sake all get bored or frustrated and leave? In today's entertainment market, you can't snatch many new fans based on a 25 year old show (especially one with as low quality as RT) If they want to succeed, they new a brand new story without the old characters and story. That's why Macross is such a success, it doesn't get boring with the same old characters doing the same old stuff in the same old place.

I don't know if that how HG is trying to sell Robotech (do they make convention stops at SF conventions, or just anime conventions? I'm not sure), but that seems to be the audience it has. Look at Capt. Donovan, who tried to compare the RT/Macross divide to Star Trek, or JT or the Protoculture Times podcast, who likewise has mentioned Star Trek and Battlestar Galactica, but hasn't said much about other anime.

(I hasten to add that this is NOT a criticism on my part, just a neutral observation.)

At the extreme, you've got Doug Bendo, saying that Robotech could become the "new Americana" to replace Star Wars. But he doesn't really fit the mold, since he actually DOES watch a lot of other anime.

Is Robotech anime? Or is it something else? This wasn't an issue back in '85...we thought of it as Japanese (or "Japanimation," as they used to say...God, how I hated that term!), as distinct from GI Joe, and Transformers, and He-Man, and whatever other stuff was out there. But as uncensored, unfiltered anime became more the norm (and as the definitely made-in-America Robtoech novels and comics came out), it seems like Robotech fans are trying to hold up Robotech as something...special. Different. Based in anime, but turning it into something different.

There may be some merit to that thought; I'm not sure. It may indeed be something different, but (to me, at least), that doesn't make it good.

[Robelwell202]

So what happens to them when the people who are just around for just nostalgia sake all get bored or frustrated and leave? In today's entertainment market, you can't snatch many new fans based on a 25 year old show (especially one with as low quality as RT) If they want to succeed, they new a brand new story without the old characters and story. That's why Macross is such a success, it doesn't get boring with the same old characters doing the same old stuff in the same old place.

Comparrison: SDF-Macross to Macross Frontier

A young pilot, inexperienced in combat, becomes the hero

Transforming planes that turn into giant robots

An arm gets shot off, that conveniently has the heroine in the palm of her hand

An extraterrestrial race that threatens to exterminate humanity

Singing as a way to defeat the extraterrestrial race

Living happily ever after in the shadow of the giant ship that serves as the platform for saving humanity

Two women pining away for the heart of the same guy (The aformentioned young hero pilot)

NAHHH!!!! There's nothing common in this!

(Okay, all sarcasm aside)

My point is this: Macross is successful because it has a basic formula that it follows. Sure, change the mecha, and the dynamics of some of the interpersoanl relationships inside the stroy, but the basic elements are there, and that's what makes it enjoyable to the people who follow it.

HG, on the other hand, is trying, too deperately, to keep certain (blatant) elements inside thier story, while pandering with new and greviously designed characters that are as flat as the paper they were drawn on.

HG is simply trying too hard to fake people out into believing that there's more attention being given to Robotech than there really is. They're taking a legacy animated series that had a limited amount of success, and trying to build on that success long after the life has bled out of it.

Truth be told, they simply need to leave it alone, and stop trying. The pathetic attempts of thier lackeys to perpetuate the transparent propoganda is only making thier task worse, and making them into the laughingstocks of the entire anime world.

[RDClip]

VFTF1, perhaps be more concise? lol

RT:TSC character and costume design doesn't really remind me of serious sci-fi, but moreso of a show like Ikkitousen or Queen's Blade. The 2 series i previously mentioned have uninteresting stories, but simply exist for fanservice and crude comedy, but RT is supposed to be a serious sci-fi series that.I could accept it if one or two characters had huge melons, but all the female characters even the minor ones who weren't meant to be sexy? you really can't take it seriously if the general uniform is spandex and all the girls have DD implants.

And is it correct they blamed this on the Korean animators? Like any company would contract animation and not keep up with the designs and progress.

[RDClip]

Comparrison: SDF-Macross to Macross Frontier

A young pilot, inexperienced in combat, becomes the hero

Transforming planes that turn into giant robots

An arm gets shot off, that conveniently has the heroine in the palm of her hand

An extraterrestrial race that threatens to exterminate humanity

Singing as a way to defeat the extraterrestrial race

Living happily ever after in the shadow of the giant ship that serves as the platform for saving humanity

Two women pining away for the heart of the same guy (The aformentioned young hero pilot)

NAHHH!!!! There's nothing common in this!

(Okay, all sarcasm aside)

My point is this: Macross is successful because it has a basic formula that it follows. Sure, change the mecha, and the dynamics of some of the interpersoanl relationships inside the stroy, but the basic elements are there, and that's what makes it enjoyable to the people who follow it.

HG, on the other hand, is trying, too deperately, to keep certain (blatant) elements inside thier story, while pandering with new and greviously designed characters that are as flat as the paper they were drawn on.

HG is simply trying too hard to fake people out into believing that there's more attention being given to Robotech than there really is. They're taking a legacy animated series that had a limited amount of success, and trying to build on that success long after the life has bled out of it.

Truth be told, they simply need to leave it alone, and stop trying. The pathetic attempts of thier lackeys to perpetuate the transparent propoganda is only making thier task worse, and making them into the laughingstocks of the entire anime world.

Maybe i wasn't clear, RT is sticking to much to characters and the story from the 'original' 85. While I agree that MacF was in general terms a homage to the original series, they are still adding new main characters and places. You can't really say that Isamu, Basara, Shin or even Alto for that matter were really that similar to other Macross characters.

Sticking to the likes of Rick Hunter, Scott Barnard and co are what is limiting the RT franchise. If HG would quickly finish off the story of the 'original' characters and move on to a new time, i think they could have more success with getting new fans.

[Robelwell202]

Maybe i wasn't clear, RT is sticking to much to characters and the story from the 'original' 85. While I agree that MacF was in general terms a homage to the original series, they are still adding new main characters and places. You can't really say that Isamu, Basara, Shin or even Alto for that matter were really that similar to other Macross characters.

Sticking to the likes of Rick Hunter, Scott Barnard and co are what is limiting the RT franchise. If HG would quickly finish off the story of the 'original' characters and move on to a new time, i think they could have more success with getting new fans.

And I am in complete agreement with you, sir.

One of my biggest gripes about RT:TSC was thier use of the Alpha and Beta fighters. Calling them 'Shadow' fighters was just a cop-out, what with the ripple screen-saver effect overlay. Add to that, the other big gripe I had was this: To continue the story in RT:TSC, they had to open up where the last peisode of the original 85 ended, and that made my head hurt. Why not start somewhere else?

Forgive my sarcasm earlier. It was meant in jest.

[Save]

And I am in complete agreement with you, sir.

One of my biggest gripes about RT:TSC was thier use of the Alpha and Beta fighters. Calling them 'Shadow' fighters was just a cop-out, what with the ripple screen-saver effect overlay. Add to that, the other big gripe I had was this: To continue the story in RT:TSC, they had to open up where the last peisode of the original 85 ended, and that made my head hurt. Why not start somewhere else?

Forgive my sarcasm earlier. It was meant in jest.

If they hadn't had the Invid crabs, Alpha and Alpah Beta linked then it would have been 40 plus min of bad uniform design and even worse mecha design. The Aramaki and Kakinuma mechanical designs were it's only saving grace. To bad the low poly 3D models and bad shaders didn't give their stuff justice. Imagine if it was done with 100% all new characters and mecha in a whole new setting. Scary isn't it.

Edited November 17, 2009 by Save

[Jasonc]

RT:TSC character and costume design doesn't really remind me of serious sci-fi, but moreso of a show like Ikkitousen or Queen's Blade. The 2 series i previously mentioned have uninteresting stories, but simply exist for fanservice and crude comedy, but RT is supposed to be a serious sci-fi series that.I could accept it if one or two characters had huge melons, but all the female characters even the minor ones who weren't meant to be sexy? you really can't take it seriously if the general uniform is spandex and all the girls have DD implants.

Hmmm, not to be OT, but I love Ikki Tousen. For fan service, and a good fight here and there, that show is awesome. When it comes to RT, there are many things I can say about it's current position, and how it's not going to expand or grow like the propaganda says, but just by virtue of the fact that their current medium of Broadcast is through feature presentations, that's already gonna limit them from growing fans. One thing I thought of, is if they had such marketability, why is it they can't get a Robotech series on T.V.? I know they would've liked to. I know Kevin McKeever had a hard-on for Fox, and bugged them to no end to see Robotech as a viable product. As you can all see, it didn't make it to television, so there you go. Anyways, at this point, it seems the only thing Robotech has become is even more of a chop shop. It's now just bits of incoherent micro sized pieces of 3 anime, and that's it. Robotech isn't even anime anymore, in the true sense of the word.

[VFTF1]

The debate gets livelier. I have already addressed the different way that RT treats sex as opposed to Macross, but now some more points beg themselves:

1. The Question of whether MF is original, and whether Macross remains fresh and original.

This opinion that Macross Frontier follows the same formula and is pretty much a copy of Macross, and in fact that all the Macross franchises keep copying the same formula, down to minute details being similar, albeit subtley so, is, in my opinion one of those crusty stereotypes that apparently form around an anime after people stop watching and discussing it.

It's just like the crusty stereotype regarding Macross 7 that the beginning is just planet dance and Bassara singing and that the whole anime is just Basara flying around and singing.

As with every stereotype - there is great truth in it - the key here, though, is to not allow the stereotypes to overwhelm the living story that is being told - and that happens when the story is no longer unfolding before our eyes, but rather becomes a memory and we apparently start compartementalizing it, dressing the thing up until it's an easy platitude - a simple, crusty stereotype.

This particular stereotype regarding MF being just "the same" as SDFM TV in a million respects and details was actually bandied about by those who did not like the anime as a primary argument as to why the anime was bad - because, to summarize - it was just a cheap shot of nostalgia - a redesign of the originals. According to this thinking Ozma was Roy, Alto was Hikaru, Michael was Max, Klan Klan was Milia etc etc etc.

Of course, this is complete hogwash - as has been demonstrated in numerous discussions when a reall point-by-point comparisson of SDFM TV was made with MF. The fact is that there are only surface similarities - but to say that they are just copying the original formulae (beyond a very general and vague notion of "copying" that is enclosed in the very concept of continuity) is akin to basically saying that "it's all the same" because Alto's VF-25F has red lines on it - just like Hikaru's VF-1J.

I can of course get in to the minute details and repeat all of the arguments, or at the very least search the forum for where they are presented (maybe I'll do that in a second...it would add some meat to the post) - but that's beside the point. All I wanted to do was knock down the firmness of this notion that Macross is repetitive in any fundamental sense.

It certainly is not.

Is Robotech anime? Or is it something else? This wasn't an issue back in '85...we thought of it as Japanese (or "Japanimation," as they used to say...God, how I hated that term!), as distinct from GI Joe, and Transformers, and He-Man, and whatever other stuff was out there. But as uncensored, unfiltered anime became more the norm (and as the definitely made-in-America Robtoech novels and comics came out), it seems like Robotech fans are trying to hold up Robotech as something...special. Different. Based in anime, but turning it into something different.

Well - look at the quote from the FUNimation guy in the article I linked to when ranting about sex in Macross vs. sex in the Shadow Chronicles.

[note: I dare say the article was written by somebody who must be spiritually related to HG, since just by virtue of quoting from the article, I'm apparently going to commit a capital offence since "Permission to republish Robotech wins award in print or online must be granted by the author in writing."... although.... I guess that by just quoting that, I have apparently commited murder and need to be jailed...]

The CEO of FUNimation had this to say:

"This is an exciting award for Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles," said Gen Fukunaga, president and CEO of FUNimation. "It is a series that has a tremendous fan following and it has the ability to introduce a much larger audience to the appeal of anime."

The year that this was published was 2006.

Well now - that tells us something.

That tells us that in the year 2006, FUNimation and HG seemed to think that it was necessary to use a bootleg of three different anime to "introduce a much larger audience to the appeal of anime."

This is curious.

Wouldn't it have been better to make an original anime that was appealing?

My point is - they seem to STILL consider that Robotech is supposed to be some kind of vehicle that needs to "show the appeal of anime" - and "anime" is something foriegn that nobody will ever be interested in unless intermediaries - middle men like HG - westernize the "anime" to make it "appealing."

Now, perhaps there is some business sense to that quote - perhaps what he is thinking of is putting anime on prime time where currently things like...I dunno...Sponge Bob...or whatever cartoons kids watch these days are?

But this misunderstands the medium, I think.

It's kind of like noticing that Transformers The Movie made lots of money at the box office, and therefore taking the Polish science fiction movie Sexmission (about the last two men who survive in a post-apocalyptic world ruled by feminists where there are no men in existence any more, females rule the planet and grow themselves in genetic tubes), dubbing over it, changing the story to make it sound like a Western with John Wayne in it, and rushing it into theatres to try to get those stupid people who like the mass-appeal robot movie into more serious stuff.

Why?

There is a place for mass appeal movies and cartoons - in fact, all of us sometimes like to turn off our brains, eat some popcorn, enjoy some action and FX and relax.

Just like kids don't always have to watch intelligent animation - and in fact, animation doesn't have to be for kids and often isn't nowadays. Anime is anime - there's no need to "westernize" it - and there's certain no need to produce a film with the intention of "broadening the appeal for anime."

I mean - what does that catch phrase mean?

I offer that it's completely thoughtless.

Because - what? Are they hoping people will see Robotech and think - wow! Anime is great! I need to now go see Macross, Gundam, Ideon, K-On etc etc etc?

Are they hoping that people will say "wow! This anime stuff is great! Bring us more HG!!" and then HG can go to China, buy the rights to a couple of half assed old anime, string them together and release them as Robot Battles!

I seriously don't understand.

A film, a book, a comic - an anime - should all be made for self-contained reasons. Sure - in 1985 it might have been feasable to say "nobody in America knows about the awesomeness of Japanese anime so let's bring over these three anime and make Robotech" - but in 2006?

In 2006?

In 2006 people are not ignoring the Shadow Chronicles because they don't find anime appealing.

They are ignoring the SHadow Chronicles because they don't find IT appealing.

Instead, they find ANIME appealing - anime like Macross.

And anime is doing fine without companies like HG hacking it up.

You know what they SHOULD do is just produce their own stuff.

Call it Robotech even - and this idea has been mentioned a zillion times - but produce your own stuff. Call it "American anime" or whatever...I dunno...

but then again - not every culture and country has to be masterful at doing the same thing. I like the uniqueness of Japanese anime and I completely don't mind it being a Japanese phenomena.

Hm..

VFTF1, perhaps be more concise? happy.gif lol

Yes.

Pete

[HappyPenguins]

I have question in regards to the macross, I would like to know why is it that there's a new cast for every new series? I've never really seen any continuations, unless you count macross 7 since its got max and millia (much older) I'm not knocking it or anything but it would be nice to find out what happened to the previous characters, instead of just having them "disappear", and then BAM new characters, new time line.

I guess that's probably one of the reasons I like robotech, because you actually get to find out what happened with your favorite characters, be it Robotech II The Sentinels movie, the novels and the comics. PTTSC & TSC don't count because I refuse to call that robotech. I'm just the type who hates change, I hate getting attached to characters and then never seeing them again.

This is also a pet peeve of mine in Sailor Moon too, a lot of the villains who turned good are never heard from again, even though they supposedly live in the same damn city.

So can anyone shed some light on this for me? I'd appreciate it =]

[VFTF1]

Kawamorii apparantly stated that he does not want to revisit any of the old characters for fear of tampering with the excellence of how their arcs ended.

I tend to agree with this. The love story from Macross was beautiful and it's over.

In Robotech, aside from the changes that they make to Macross, one of the big problems with the Lisa/Rick relationship (and Minmey really) is that it just becomes a lame soap opera. A wonderful love story becomes distilled. Minmey becomes this Mother of the Universe figure and Rick and Lisa become just some boring people in love.

I guess the idea with Macross was that the story is over - don't ruin it by continuing it beyond what was necessary to make it great.

Pete

[Save]

but it would be nice to find out what happened to the previous characters, instead of just having them "disappear", and then BAM new characters, new time line.

Aside from Mac II there are plenty of references to characters from all the shows. Mac Zero actually had a younger Roy in it and many of Zero's story elements are embedded in the back story to Macross Frontier. Minmay is talked about in M7 and MF, and a picture of her is even shown at the end of Frontier. It's still up in the air to what exactly showing the picture actually insinuates. As far as what happened to them nobody really knows. Compared to what happened to their RT counterparts I'm fine without knowing.

Edited November 17, 2009 by Save

[Lolicon]

Not knowing what happened to Kirk and crew didn't hurt Star Trek: The Next Generation. Heck, I thought that Generations was a completely unnecessary movie; The Undiscovered Country was the perfect sendoff for the original crew, with the Enterprise literally flying off into the sunset.

Cardinal rule of showbiz: Always leave on a high note and leave them wanting more.