HG and Robotech Debates

[Wanzerfan]

Well that's because both of those franchises are laughable... I mean look at Bayformers

those mech designs are some of the ugliest crap and yet the fans will tell you how stupid you are. Also I don't care for story, as far as I'm concerned all the human characters are boring and generic and ruin the movie..........let's not forget the immature humor that does not belong there in the first place but like I said before...... the general audience are a bunch of morons and this kinda puke appeals to them. LOL can't wait to see what immature humor is thrown into the robotech movie..... if it is indeed competition then I wonder if we can expect anything to 1 up the pissing autobot, and the leg humpers.

As for robotech, the real reason it's laughable is because of the fans who believe it is original and the greatest creation of all time. Just the lengths they go to defending it is hilarious because they seem to think Robotech came before the originals or RT improved them. You can't dare criticize it or else you're a macross purist, you're full of evil and want to ruin the world of robotech. (nah I think the retarded fans do a good enough job of that on their own)

robotech is not original (here come the crocodile tears) it's not the greatest thing since sliced bread and any artistic merit it has, belongs to the originals.

As far as story telling goes, it's just generic sci-fi and yes a lot of things don't make sense and are easily laughable. But it was the 80s the dialogue of most of the cartoons of that time were pretty cheesy and RT was no exception. Now I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being a fan, because I'm obviously one myself, but the only problem is the type of fan you turn out to be. All these obsessive fanatics are a good reason the normal fans can't enjoy it, especially with the way they brown nose HG and attack anyone who dares to disagree with their views.

As I always say... it's always the fanatics who ruin everything, and I stand by that saying.

There, now the post makes more sense .

[Seto Kaiba]

Just wanted to share something mean-spirited I wrote for the "dictionary" over on HP's site...

Macekre, [Mace-eh-ker], noun, verb:

A "free adaptation" of an anime series created by discarding or heavily rewriting the script of the original work and replacing it with a new, far more awkward script utterly devoid of all cultural references, crawling with dub-induced plot holes, and bearing at most a passing resemblance to the original. Some Macekres can consist of more than one Macekre linked together with editing into a single series, known as a "daisy-chain Macekre", "Macekre clusterfart", or a "Robotech".

Examples of Macekres include the english dubs of Naruto and One Piece, and the legendary Macekre clusterfart known as Robotech.

Macekism, [Mace-eh-kiz-um], noun:

The tendency to derive pleasure from being subjected to unfaithful dubs, bad writing, piss-poor voice acting, and Macekres. See also "masochism".

Sadomacekism, [say-do-mace-eh-kiz-um], noun:

The tendency to derive pleasure from subjecting others to unfaithful dubs, bad writing, piss-poor voice acting, and Macekres. See also, "Sadomasochism" and "Robotech fandom".

Yuneinite, [You-nen-ite], noun:

1.) An individual afflicted with the conditions of "Robotech fandom" and "Sadomacekism", that makes the Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles movie the focus of their particular sadomacekistic urges.

2.) An individual afflicted with the conditions of "Robotech fandom" and "Sadomacekism", who believes that the corporation Harmony Gold and its employees are infallible.

3.) A mentally subnormal individual.

See also: "Idiot", "Cultist", "Crank", "Crackpot", and "Conspiracy Theorist"

[RDClip]

If i knew that it would make HG stay away from Macross, i would hope the LAM is a big success and Robotech would be able to make their own way on the world. However i suspect if HG makes any significant amount of money from it, they would try even harder to kill Macross outside of Japan.

I don't want to sound disrespectful of Robotech fans (even though i have no respect for the franchise itself) I think if HG went under it would be the best thing for non-Japanese Macross fans. I can't think of any other company picking up the trademarks and rights and intentionally screwing themselves over for profits not trying to work with the true creators of Macross. So who wants to help me in my plan to become a billionaire, buy out HG, and dissolve it???

[BeyondTheGrave]

If i knew that it would make HG stay away from Macross, i would hope the LAM is a big success and Robotech would be able to make their own way on the world. However i suspect if HG makes any significant amount of money from it, they would try even harder to kill Macross outside of Japan.

I don't want to sound disrespectful of Robotech fans (even though i have no respect for the franchise itself) I think if HG went under it would be the best thing for non-Japanese Macross fans. I can't think of any other company picking up the trademarks and rights and intentionally screwing themselves over for profits not trying to work with the true creators of Macross. So who wants to help me in my plan to become a billionaire, buy out HG, and dissolve it???

Just commit arson and blame it on McKeever... and his higher ups.

Edited November 14, 2009 by BeyondTheGrave

[Beltane70]

Where were Maverik's claims posted? I don't recall seeing it at rt.com.

I wouldn't say that everyone that liked the Transformers movies are morons. I enjoyed them for exactly what they were, mindless action flicks.

[Gubaba]

Where were Maverik's claims posted? I don't recall seeing it at rt.com.

I wouldn't say that everyone that liked the Transformers movies are morons. I enjoyed them for exactly what they were, mindless action flicks.

PM'd you.

[RDClip]

Just commit arson and blame it on McKeever... and his higher ups.

LOL that made me think that if someone sets the HG office on fire they'll blame it on the producers of Transformers being afraid of the RLAM. Seems to me that Mav's explanation of the transformers producers rushing their film from fear of RT could apply to everything Robotech.

So, now it all makes sense anyone who insults robotech or any of its fans are just afraid and jealous of how awsome it could be if everyone wasn't holding it back. When will these evil Macross fans stop standing in the way of robosuccess? Why are they so mean??? Its not like the all great Harmony Gold ever did anything to them. But rejoice Robofans, there is the wonderful Shadow Chronicles, even the evil worldwide Macross empire couldn't curb its success. We all know how great the sales were and how much critical acclaim it have recieved from sophisticated anime and sci-fi fans. Robofans finally have a robofilm to legitimize their robofranchise and finally show those foreigners in japan how to make an animated movie.

No wonder every sci-fi film that has come out in the last 24 years has been rushed. All the producers were roboscared of the robowave of robolove for the robotech robofilm that will be so robogood that no one will want to robosee any other film. They are just lucky that harmony gold has taken this long to do anythng with their franchise. harmony gold (WB is just giving them the money HG is OBVIOUSLY in charge of it) just doesn't want to rush their robomovie.

[Einherjar]

http://www.robotech.com/community/forum/re...mp;pagenumber=2

Well, there you go. According to Tommy Yune, or just a user named "Tommy," the budget for Shadow Chronicles was about twice the cost they spent making the Robotech 3000 promo. They stretched the money used to make a 5 minute 3D clip into a 90 minute movie. Also, consider the production time in completing the movie. Way to start a revival!

Remember to take into account the change in value of money between both productions.

Edited November 14, 2009 by Einherjar

[anime52k8]

http://www.robotech.com/community/forum/re...mp;pagenumber=2

Well, there you go. According to Tommy Yune, or just a user named "Tommy," the budget for Shadow Chronicles was about twice the cost they spent making the Robotech 3000 promo. They stretched the money used to make a 5 minute 3D clip into a 90 minute movie. Also, consider the production time in completing the movie. Way to start a revival!

Remember to take into account the change in value of money between both productions.

To be fair, he said the Animation budget on SC was twice the money they spent on robotech 3000. Don't forget that 90% of SC's budget was paying for Mark Hamill.

[Seto Kaiba]

Well, there you go. According to Tommy Yune, or just a user named "Tommy," the budget for Shadow Chronicles was about twice the cost they spent making the Robotech 3000 promo.

Yeah, that's Tommy Yune all right... the Captain rank is reserved for Harmony Gold staffers who have admin privileges on the RT.com boards. If what he's saying is accurate, that means that the losses incurred when Robotech 3000 got the axe were somewhere around $500k. Not exactly a colossal loss, since inflation-adjusted that's only about $648k in today's money according to the inflation calculator at the Bureau of Labor Statistics website.

They stretched the money used to make a 5 minute 3D clip into a 90 minute movie. Also, consider the production time in completing the movie. Way to start a revival!

Considering they weren't sure that the movie was going to sell in any significant volume, they made a sensible (if a bit overcautious) decision to keep its budget aggressively small so if it tanked as Robotech productions so often did, they'd minimize their losses.

I have a query for anyone who used to do the convention thing back in '00 and '01... I was talking to a few people over on LU and a claim was raised that at either Sugoicon 2000 or 2001, there was a Macross panel with Dana Weaver and Neil Nadelman wherein one of the hosts claimed that the real reason the dialogue in Robotech's Macross Saga is such a f***ing mess is because Harmony Gold was forced to use an exceptionally poor translation of Macross supplied by Tatsunoko, and that Tatsunoko forbade them from making any changes to it other than those absolutely necessary to adapt it into Robotech.

I know it sounds like an excuse tailor-made to exonerate Carl Macek and Harmony Gold of the crime of mutilating the original Macross series, since it concerns something allegedly said at a convention panel back before panels got anything like decent coverage, and it clashes with Carl Macek's claims of having made changes to Macross under his own authority to "improve" the series, but it comes from a fairly well-respected former convention organizer in the Robotech fandom, so I thought I'd stop and ask if anyone out there attended the Macross panel at either Sugoicon 2000 or 2001, when these statements were allegedly made, and could either confirm or deny that this was in fact said. I'd love to contact AnimEigo to check on this claim about their reasons for retranslating the show themselves, but their site appears to be down for the moment.

[Gubaba]

I have a query for anyone who used to do the convention thing back in '00 and '01... I was talking to a few people over on LU and a claim was raised that at either Sugoicon 2000 or 2001, there was a Macross panel with Dana Weaver and Neil Nadelman wherein one of the hosts claimed that the real reason the dialogue in Robotech's Macross Saga is such a f***ing mess is because Harmony Gold was forced to use an exceptionally poor translation of Macross supplied by Tatsunoko, and that Tatsunoko forbade them from making any changes to it other than those absolutely necessary to adapt it into Robotech.

I know it sounds like an excuse tailor-made to exonerate Carl Macek and Harmony Gold of the crime of mutilating the original Macross series, since it concerns something allegedly said at a convention panel back before panels got anything like decent coverage, and it clashes with Carl Macek's claims of having made changes to Macross under his own authority to "improve" the series, but it comes from a fairly well-respected former convention organizer in the Robotech fandom, so I thought I'd stop and ask if anyone out there attended the Macross panel at either Sugoicon 2000 or 2001, when these statements were allegedly made, and could either confirm or deny that this was in fact said. I'd love to contact AnimEigo to check on this claim about their reasons for retranslating the show themselves, but their site appears to be down for the moment.

I wasn't at the conventions, but there's been a mixup. On Wikipedia, for "Super Dimension Fortress Macross," you find this sentence:

"Streamline Pictures then released Robotech Perfect Collection: Macross on VHS in the summer of 1994, combining two English subtitled episodes of Macross and the corresponding dubbed episodes of the Robotech adaptation in each volume. This was the first English subtitling for Macross, but it contained unedited video footage with incomplete and mistranslated English subtitles and was cancelled after eight volumes and 16 episodes."

Now the sentence USED to be expanded, and had a footnote to an old usenet board where Neil Nadelman said something like (I'm quoting from memory here), "Frustration (n.): working on the Robotech Perfect Collection and using subtitles which are inaccuarate, but being unable to change them because the company says they 'reflect the intention of the original.'"

So it was for the subs for the Robotech Perfect Collection, not the dubs for Robotech, and it was STREAMLINE, not Tatsunoko that insisted the bad translation be used.

I wish I could find the earlier version of the wiki article, though...I wonder why they removed that bit?

Edited November 14, 2009 by Gubaba

[Wanzerfan]

Just wanted to share something mean-spirited I wrote for the "dictionary" over on HP's site...

Unless Carl Macek was involved in the transformation of Gatchaman to Battle of the Planets, or Star Cruiser Yamato into Star Blazers, that sort of shenanagans has been going on for some time.

[Gubaba]

Unless Carl Macek was involved in the transformation of Gatchaman to Battle of the Planets, or Star Cruiser Yamato into Star Blazers, that sort of shenanagans has been going on for some time.

What was wrong with Star Blazers?

[Freiflug88]

What was wrong with Star Blazers?

Star Blazers wasn't nearly as faithfull to the orginial Yamato as many nostaglic fans remember it and took many liberties in rearranging and rewriting lines away from their original intent in the name of censorship and making the show more "appropriate" for kids.

[Gubaba]

Star Blazers wasn't nearly as faithfull to the orginial Yamato as many nostaglic fans remember it and took many liberties in rearranging and rewriting lines away from their original intent in the name of censorship and making the show more "appropriate" for kids.

I know, I've seen both. But at least they didn't jam it together with two other shows and pretend they're all tied together. Nor did they change it so completely that they had to add in a comedic robot sidekick to fill in the edits.

Yes, it was edited, yes some of it was changed, but overall, I think the producers of Star Blazers showed a lot more respect to the original than other edits of the same type (I find "Warriors of the Wind" to be especially atrocious).

[Freiflug88]

I wasn't trying to critize Star Blazers I was just agreeing with Wanzerfan that the defined "Macekring" of anime has been around before Carl Macek did Robotech.

[Gubaba]

I wasn't trying to critize Star Blazers I was just agreeing with Wanzerfan that the defined "Macekring" of anime has been around before Carl Macek did Robotech.

Hmmm...I don't think of "Macekring" as being just changing some names and editing for content...which is what Star Blazers was. Battle of the Planets...yes, that was a Macekre. Speed Racer wasn't, nor was HG's first attempt at Macross...but yeah, I think the process was started with BotP (at least, that's the first one I know of). Has any other Macekre been as sweeping as Robtech, though? I honestly don't know.

[Freiflug88]

Voltron combined two series and I believe they even edited togehter an episode where the Go-Lion team crossovers over in the Vechicle Voltron half edited from Dairugger XV footage. It may have just been a flashback or something, but they did tie-in the two shows together in a similar vein as the Robotech Sagas were done.

Plus, WEP has had legal issues of their own when they created Votlron 3D on their own without any of the derivative rights and they have also sold their movie rights to WB for a live action movie as well.

[Gubaba]

Voltron combined two series and I believe they even edited togehter an episode where the Go-Lion team crossovers over in the Vechicle Voltron half edited from Dairugger XV footage. It may have just been a flashback or something, but they did tie-in the two shows together in a similar vein as the Robotech Sagas were done.

I thought they commissioned new animation for Toei for that? I might be wrong about that...

[Wanzerfan]

I thought they commissioned new animation for Toei for that? I might be wrong about that...

The last episode of Lion Voltron tied together the two series (Pidge and Chip are brothers).

They also made a movie a while back that had both Lion and Vehicle Voltrons side by side

(had something to do with the transformation from evil to good).

Edited November 14, 2009 by Wanzerfan

[Ginrai]

There's an entire new season of Lion Voltron from the '80s that was never in Go Lion as well as the Fleet of Doom crossover movie. And then there's Voltron 3D. That's why I say Voltron was a lot better at getting new shows than Robotech. These were all completely new animation.

Edited November 14, 2009 by Ginrai

[taksraven]

Hmmm...I don't think of "Macekring" as being just changing some names and editing for content...which is what Star Blazers was. Battle of the Planets...yes, that was a Macekre. Speed Racer wasn't, nor was HG's first attempt at Macross...but yeah, I think the process was started with BotP (at least, that's the first one I know of). Has any other Macekre been as sweeping as Robtech, though? I honestly don't know.

What has always amazed me about both Star Blazers and BOTP was the inconsistent approach that was taken to editing out violence in both productions. A lot of deaths were edited out in both shows but a hell of a lot were left in. (Including some very gruesome deaths.

BOTP had its faults but I would still prefer to watch it rather than Eagle Riders and G-Force.

Taksraven

[Gubaba]

The last episode of Lion Voltron tied together the two series (Pidge and Chip are brothers).

They also made a movie a while back that had both Lion and Vehicle Voltrons side by side

(had something to do with the transformation from evil to good).

Yes, I know that.

And that movie was made by Toei, commissioned by the American production company, right?

[Wanzerfan]

Yes, I know that.

And that movie was made by Toei, commissioned by the American production company, right?

I wasn't singling you out, Gubabba. I was pointing out that fact for those members of this site who did not know. I just used your quote as an example.

I don't know, I just saw the movie long ago one Sunday on KTXH channel 20.

Edited November 14, 2009 by Wanzerfan

[Gubaba]

I wasn't singling you out, Gubabba. I was pointing out that fact for those members of this site who did not know. I just used your quote as an example.

I don't know, I just saw the movie long ago one Sunday on KTXH channel 20.

So...um...you quoted a question I asked but gave an answer to a question that no one asked? Strange.

[BeyondTheGrave]

Over at Japanator a small discussion on MF being licensed happened.

http://www.japanator.com/please-license-ma...ier-12243.phtml

[terry the lone wolf]

There's an entire new season of Lion Voltron from the '80s that was never in Go Lion as well as the Fleet of Doom crossover movie. And then there's Voltron 3D. That's why I say Voltron was a lot better at getting new shows than Robotech. These were all completely new animation.

Originally, World Events planned on importing and dubbing Albegas as Gladiator Voltron but Vehicle Voltron aka Dairugger XV did so bad they decided on commissioning Toei to do a season of Lion Voltron exclusive to the western market. This package also included the "The Fleet of Doom" crossover.

[MacrossCN]

Over at Japanator a small discussion on MF being licensed happened.

HG is scum!!!

[Seto Kaiba]

So it was for the subs for the Robotech Perfect Collection, not the dubs for Robotech, and it was STREAMLINE, not Tatsunoko that insisted the bad translation be used.

Aha... thanks for the information.

[Einherjar]

Over at Japanator a small discussion on MF being licensed happened.

http://www.japanator.com/please-license-ma...ier-12243.phtml

Yeah, I was reminded of that recently. By now a lot of titles from 2008 are probably planned for release. On AnimeNewsNetwork I found out Special A was actually released in the U.S. Special Freakin' A! It was probably a no brainer for this one because it was cheap to release, but seriously, stuff like that makes the cut while Frontier is completely avoided?

Spoiler:

Both the show and manga ended up going nowhere.

[Keith]

Don't forget, though Macek had nothing to do with Starblazers, he did smash to gether Harlock & Queen millenium. As for Voltron, OMFG if you haven't watched Go-Lion already, do so, it's dirt cheap to pick up, and full of so much more random violence than Voltron. Not the greatest super robot show, but still a fun one.

[RedWolf]

Originally, World Events planned on importing and dubbing Albegas as Gladiator Voltron but Vehicle Voltron aka Dairugger XV did so bad they decided on commissioning Toei to do a season of Lion Voltron exclusive to the western market. This package also included the "The Fleet of Doom" crossover.

Frankly I'm glad Albegas or Daltanias wasn't adapted. It would be awkward like Robotech mashing them together.

Voltron merchandise has the third robot curse where one robot isn't shown in the show. For Voltron it is Albegas/Gladiator Voltron, for Voltron 3D it is Voltrex.

Which is still better than HG's production and creativity curse.

[azrael]

Yeah, I was reminded of that recently. By now a lot of titles from 2008 are probably planned for release. On AnimeNewsNetwork I found out Special A was actually released in the U.S. Special Freakin' A! It was probably a no brainer for this one because it was cheap to release, but seriously, stuff like that makes the cut while Frontier is completely avoided?

Frontier may have the same issue with music that M7 does, behind the fact that HG has the trademark for "Macross".

[VFTF1]

I know that not living in the United States biases my perspective heavily insofar as I have no personal emotional stake in whether or not I can turn on Cartoon Network or whatever other US tv program and see MF --- but personally I really don't see the big deal. HG is operating in a medium that is going to die just like newspapers are going to die.

Everything is on the internet and will be on the internet. Television will eventually make the jump to the internet too. There will be no television sets, or at the very least there will no longer be stations which run programming by THEIR schedule - but rather they will offer a variety of shows that you can watch at YOUR liesure.

I'm content with having it all on the internet and whenever I read articles dealing with the dinosaur media - television stations, licensing agreements, newspapers - I think: this stuff is still around? This stuff still matters?

Before I die - it will end and we will have an age where nobody even remembers these silly disputes because ultimately they will stop being in any way PROFITABLE.

And as soon as television stops being profitable (print newspapers are already unprofitable and exist only because desperate governments do various things to keep them alive beyond their time - example is France which openly subsidizes print newspapers [of course only the "mainstream" ones), the dispute over licensing will cease to matter.

Once there is ZERO money to be made from having a license or not having one, you will suddenly find nobody cares much who has what license and the black market will simply become the norm - that is to say we will have numerous translations, numerous subs, maybe some dubs by zealous people as well - there will be VARIOUS ways to enjoy a given show - not just the corporately mandated way.

And the main money that will be made will be through tangible merchandising - and these shows are more and more being tied to that than anything else.

So, I'm not overly emotional about it one way or another. The old media are zombies. They will collapse. All of it will be whiped out and we will live in a new age without restrictions on the transfer of information and the enjoyment of entertainment programming.

Pete

[BeyondTheGrave]

I know that not living in the United States biases my perspective heavily insofar as I have no personal emotional stake in whether or not I can turn on Cartoon Network or whatever other US tv program and see MF --- but personally I really don't see the big deal. HG is operating in a medium that is going to die just like newspapers are going to die.

Everything is on the internet and will be on the internet. Television will eventually make the jump to the internet too. There will be no television sets, or at the very least there will no longer be stations which run programming by THEIR schedule - but rather they will offer a variety of shows that you can watch at YOUR liesure.

I'm content with having it all on the internet and whenever I read articles dealing with the dinosaur media - television stations, licensing agreements, newspapers - I think: this stuff is still around? This stuff still matters?

Before I die - it will end and we will have an age where nobody even remembers these silly disputes because ultimately they will stop being in any way PROFITABLE.

And as soon as television stops being profitable (print newspapers are already unprofitable and exist only because desperate governments do various things to keep them alive beyond their time - example is France which openly subsidizes print newspapers [of course only the "mainstream" ones), the dispute over licensing will cease to matter.

Once there is ZERO money to be made from having a license or not having one, you will suddenly find nobody cares much who has what license and the black market will simply become the norm - that is to say we will have numerous translations, numerous subs, maybe some dubs by zealous people as well - there will be VARIOUS ways to enjoy a given show - not just the corporately mandated way.

And the main money that will be made will be through tangible merchandising - and these shows are more and more being tied to that than anything else.

So, I'm not overly emotional about it one way or another. The old media are zombies. They will collapse. All of it will be whiped out and we will live in a new age without restrictions on the transfer of information and the enjoyment of entertainment programming.

Pete

Television is not dying anytime soon. Too much money is at stake. DVD, Movies, Food Products, Books, Shows, Toys, Clothing, Computers, Game& Game Consoles, Vacation Destinations, Who you should elect as you leader

Yes newpaper is slowing fading away but i still read it b/c i don't want to go online to look at the news and the front page article is what/who celebrity X is doing.

I can see various parts of the Black Market becoming mainstream (Napster) but not the complete market itself (the pirate bay).

Frontier may have the same issue with music that M7 does, behind the fact that HG has the trademark for "Macross".

I thought a majority of the music was composed by Yoko Kanno? Except for a handful of fire bomber songs. I don't think it'd be that expensive to pay for the use of less than 5 songs.