HG and Robotech Debates

[Robelwell202]

Yeah, that's a very fair assessment. However, if that were to ever happen, I wonder how much western influence would affect Macross future installments? Right now, while we do complain about blockades and whatnot, how different, if at all, do you think Macross would've been if it was strongly linked to the west? I think the double edged sword of having Macross exclusive for Japan, is that it isn't influenced by the west, and keeps it where we like it. The bad side, obviously, is that DVDs are coded differently (work around), no subs (is usually worked around and can be done by the R.2 distributor), and the prices of merchandise and the media is more expensive (yeah, we have to save a bit more).

You know what? I sincerely doubt that there would be a western influence.

It's obvious that there's a large fan-base for Macross stuff. The creators would be downright foolhardy not to know this. Still, there's no real western influnce, save for the occasional F-14 Tomcat (Zero).

I think Macross would stay the same, to be honest. These guys aren't dumb.

[VFTF1]

I think the double edged sword of having Macross exclusive for Japan, is that it isn't influenced by the west, and keeps it where we like it.

I agree.

I actually don't want an "official" American release of MF or any other Macross show or really any anime for that matter unless the DVDs have the unaltered version with subtitles on them for people like me.

And that also brings up another good point:

Namely EVEN IF companies released westernized versions on DVD, there'd still be people (like me) downloading to get the original version because to me - it's interesting to see what the Japanese like and how they do things.

There are plenty enough purely western/American cartoons. Not everything has to be tailored to the same standards.

Pete

[Jasonc]

What I'm going off of is the fact that when I watch anime titles (and I watch a lot), the english terms and slang is so far different from what the Japanese intended. I understand why, but many times, the intent gets lost. Now, add that to Macross and it's specific situation. What if they worked out a deal to bring over their DVDs and shows? I know it sounds great, and it does to some point, but how much would BW/SN have to bend to what the western fanbase would expect, and what distributors over here would want? While it's possible that it could be no difference, there could've been a big difference. I do like the movement by a few distributors who believe in keeping the titles as close to original as possible. I think that is a trend that was brought on by anime watchers over the years, and the backlash certain shows started to get for butchering the originals to death.

It's one of the ideas that makes HG unique in its view. They still use someone else's work to make something that it wasn't intended as, then call it their own. While this was acceptable 20 years ago, the trend has proven it isn't now. Anywho, that's not the company I'd want bringing over Macross in any form.

[VFTF1]

Well - here's the problem:

What would happen if the only thing that a 'legal' industry company had to do was to put some subtitles on a DVD? Gee...that doesn't cost too much, does it? What about all those dub voice actors, musicians, and geniuses like Karl Macek who would surely bring their creative brilliance to the process in order to transform a wierd foriegn work into something more palpatable?

Of coruse - it makes no sense, really, in the age of the internet and globalism to do such a thing. What makes people remotely interested in anime is...the fact that it's ANIME.

I really don't see the logic of saying "hey - there's a big interest in Japanese anime so let's bring it over, butcher it, dub it, change the story, change the names, change the dialogue, change the music and sell it."

I mean - personally, I think that the demand is for the original stuff. All that's required are subs.

So - to me - there is no future in the "import and adapt" industry. The future is what we see with our own two eyes - fans subbing stuff and foriegners being able to see it for free.

Let me be more clear:

Do Japanese people have to pay to watch Macross Frontier on TV?

No.

So why would non-Japanese people have to pay to see it on the internet - which is no different (and actually better than) TV?

Money from an anime is made off of merchandising - selling tangible goods that, while they can be bootlegged, can't be acquired in any other form than through purchasing.

As for the bootleg market - I don't like it - but there's no point in whining over that one either. There will always be people who want to have something with a designer label on it and not pay the price of the designer label. I think these people are silly. If you're going to buy designer clothes and accessories - buy the damn original. If you want to show of your bling - do it. If you don't have the money - go to Walmart. There's no shame in it. But I guess it's like a psychological thing where people are embarrassed NOT to have trendy labels and hope that nobody will notice it's bootlegged. Although usually - everybody notices. But whatever.

The same goes for Transformers, Gundams and other stuff that is bootlegged. Ultimately - it's done in response to consumer demand for bootlegs. I would wager that only a fraction of the target audience actually gets FOOLED. I mean - come on - how many of you CAN'T tell an original Gundam from a bootleg? How many of you have accidentally bought a bootlegged VF-1 instead of an original?

People who are interested enough in something to pay for it on a steady basis usually go to great lengths to learn about the stuff.

My point is - this is the reality of the market. We can whine about it and bitch and moan about it - but it will be the same as the whining bitching and moaning of people who complained that cars would make trains obsolete, or that video killed the radio (good song by the way).

Technology often progresses in ways we can't fathom. The battle against "piracy" is nothing more than an attempt by corporations to use government to protect their market share rather than letting the market solve the issue.

Now, lots of publishers who are smart actually offer their stuff for free on the internet - as e-books and what not - because they wager that most people will just read fragments of the e-book and if they like it - they will buy the physical thing.

What is the difference between this and going to Borders, taking a book off the shelf and sitting down to read it?

I remember being in NYC once in a Forbidden Planet and the dude was like "no reading the comic books in the store. You need to buy it if you want to read it."

Suffice to say I never went back there. How idiotic is that? If he were smart, he'd open a small cafe as part of the comic shop to let people read while sitting down and enjoying coffee or something. I understand a "if you spill coffe/damage it then you must pay for it rule" - but please - not letting you read comics?

Face it. The internet is here to stay. People will scan, people will download - and calling it piracy is like saying that my friend who loaned me his copy of Moby Dick is a pirate or that Libraries engage in mass piracy for lending books for a fee.

The debate about whether or not to bring anime to the usa and "alter it or not" is a dead debate. It's not going to happen - at least not in that form. There won't be companies bringing this stuff over en mass.

It is and will continue to happen via the internet.

There are niche markets all around the globe that were born for anime because of the internet - the markets are too small individually to be worth the efforts of a corporation - but since the internet costs nothing and googling and downloading is free - tens of thousands of people globally have been exposed to anime who would otherwise not have been.

Now - a smart company will look at that and say: EXCELLENT! So much free advertising! Such broad appeal.

The days where your demographic was limited to one country or one region are over. Japanese anime is popular as Japanese anime throughout the globe and there's no point in Americanizing it, Germanizing it, Swahilizing it.

Why?

There's American stuff and German stuff and stuff peculiar to each part of the globe out there and it's fine to see it as it is.

People still caught up on this issue are akin to folks who back in 1919 might have sat around wondering "so...you think these "air plane" things will have any mass appeal?" or "so...you think these "car" things will ever truly replace the horse and buggy?"

And companies who base their business strategy on whining about the internet are going to fail.

They might win a couple of court cases even -but in the long run - there is nothing that can stop the development of this technology. It will shatter the old ways of doing business and thinking about the world.

The only question is will people adapt or will they fight against what's happening?

If the latter, then we're in for a rough ride.

Pete

[Einherjar]

Frontier did take place in what could be called space San Francisco.

[Gubaba]

That's a no-brainer... If one were to, say, put TSC on a screen nexxt to a presentation of Frontier, and conducted 'The Pepsi Challenge', I think there would be an overwhelming response to Frontier, resulting in an eventual surge in Macross appreciation, and sounding the death nell for RT.

Of course, our dear friend Kevvie would have some strange spin on the data. Something about "Well, we believe that the test was tainted. If the test were done in a truly scientific matter, they'd've presented another animated program that sucked just as badly as RT:TSC."

Now, we have the obvious question: "What sucked as badly as TSC?"

That's a question I simply cannot answer... Anyone else wanna try?

I love how there's one guy at RT.com saying that it doesn't MATTER how many copies of SC sold, because that would make it "quantity over quality." I wanted to answer, "Don't confuse me, man...Shadow Chronicles had neither."

Yeah, that's a very fair assessment. However, if that were to ever happen, I wonder how much western influence would affect Macross future installments? Right now, while we do complain about blockades and whatnot, how different, if at all, do you think Macross would've been if it was strongly linked to the west? I think the double edged sword of having Macross exclusive for Japan, is that it isn't influenced by the west, and keeps it where we like it. The bad side, obviously, is that DVDs are coded differently (work around), no subs (is usually worked around and can be done by the R.2 distributor), and the prices of merchandise and the media is more expensive (yeah, we have to save a bit more).

I think the days of anime playing to the Western market seem to be over (for now). I mean, look at Eva. Big bestseller for ADV, and legnendary (if not always liked) in the Western world, and yet the new movies haven't seemed very "American" to me so far.

I dunno...I realize that it doesn't really matter in the long run, that we can all get our Macross one way or another, but I would like someday to see nice deluxe packages of the entire Macross franchise on the shelves here someday. (As long as they tap me to work on it, that is. )

Edited November 12, 2009 by Gubaba

[Gubaba]

Maverick_LSC wrote a barnstormer of a post on on the "Hey Kev, What Was the Budget" thread over at RT.com.

I'll refrain from commentary for the moment and just let the words speak for themselves:

IMHO I would look at the impact that Paramounts' Transformers had on the movie industry with Paramount and Warner Brothers being direct competitors to one another as to the indication of Robotech's popularity and possible fan size. I think Warner Brothers' choice to counter Transformers with Robotech is a wise move.

And personally I think Paramount realizes this, if you look at the quality of the second Transformers movie which seemed to suffer from a 'rushed' production cycle and that i'm certain is possibly due to fearing the impact that Warner Brothers' Robotech movie would have on their sales figures.

Also what movie would you choose to watch these days, one that is focused on robots that every five minutes have to smash something to wow the crowds with toned down violence and silly plots or the other, one that has a sci-fi setting is deep and complex with a rich universe on par with that of Star Trek or Battlestar Galactica that is focused on emotional and intriguing human stories.

I'm betting that Paramount is quaking in their boots, knowing the potential that Robotech has in making a robot genre that can be critical in telling stories involving emotional human drama. It's why Paramount is trying to turn as many of these Transformers movies out they can before they make their new focus on the Star Trek sequels when the Robotech live action movie comes out.

If Battlestar Galactica, District 9 and JJ Abrams Star Trek are any indicators, people want Space Operas. And for a live action robot sci-fi genre Robotech WILL have the upper hand over Transformers.

Yes, it's quiet now, but we'll have alot to say in the future

[Lolicon]

The days of Macekreing anime ended in the 80s since fans usually hate it and it costs a lot more than just a straight translation.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Macekre

[VFTF1]

IMHO I would look at the impact that Paramounts' Transformers had on the movie industry with Paramount and Warner Brothers being direct competitors to one another as to the indication of Robotech's popularity and possible fan size. I think Warner Brothers' choice to counter Transformers with Robotech is a wise move.

And personally I think Paramount realizes this, if you look at the quality of the second Transformers movie which seemed to suffer from a 'rushed' production cycle and that i'm certain is possibly due to fearing the impact that Warner Brothers' Robotech movie would have on their sales figures.

Also what movie would you choose to watch these days, one that is focused on robots that every five minutes have to smash something to wow the crowds with toned down violence and silly plots or the other, one that has a sci-fi setting is deep and complex with a rich universe on par with that of Star Trek or Battlestar Galactica that is focused on emotional and intriguing human stories.

I'm betting that Paramount is quaking in their boots, knowing the potential that Robotech has in making a robot genre that can be critical in telling stories involving emotional human drama. It's why Paramount is trying to turn as many of these Transformers movies out they can before they make their new focus on the Star Trek sequels when the Robotech live action movie comes out.

If Battlestar Galactica, District 9 and JJ Abrams Star Trek are any indicators, people want Space Operas. And for a live action robot sci-fi genre Robotech WILL have the upper hand over Transformers.

Yes, it's quiet now, but we'll have alot to say in the future

Hm.

Ok.

My turn:

IMHO I would think that Pamela Anderson would have the hots for me if she only knew me. That's why she's done everything in her power to not come to Poland. It's because deep down, she feels that if she does, she'll stumble upon me and end up giving me a blow job.

And personally, I think she realizes this and has dreamed about me. If you look at the raggedy "getting old and unkempt" look that she has recently been photographed in - Fox claimed it was just an example of her "off duty" so to speak - but the truth is that was after a night of wet dreams full of me me and me only.

I mean - what man would Pamela Anderson chose to be with these days? A rich holywood millionaire? A rock star? A hot shot business man? Or me? Why clearly she craves me because I'm just that cool.

I'm betting that all of Pam Anderson's suitors are quaking in their boots because they know she's dreaming about me and that one day she'll get on a plane, fly here, and find me and marry me.

Yes, it's quiet now. But I'll have a lot more to say in the future.

Pete

[Einherjar]

IMHO I would look at the impact that Paramounts' Transformers had on the movie industry with Paramount and Warner Brothers being direct competitors to one another as to the indication of Robotech's popularity and possible fan size. I think Warner Brothers' choice to counter Transformers with Robotech is a wise move.

And personally I think Paramount realizes this, if you look at the quality of the second Transformers movie which seemed to suffer from a 'rushed' production cycle and that i'm certain is possibly due to fearing the impact that Warner Brothers' Robotech movie would have on their sales figures.

Also what movie would you choose to watch these days, one that is focused on robots that every five minutes have to smash something to wow the crowds with toned down violence and silly plots or the other, one that has a sci-fi setting is deep and complex with a rich universe on par with that of Star Trek or Battlestar Galactica that is focused on emotional and intriguing human stories.

I'm betting that Paramount is quaking in their boots, knowing the potential that Robotech has in making a robot genre that can be critical in telling stories involving emotional human drama. It's why Paramount is trying to turn as many of these Transformers movies out they can before they make their new focus on the Star Trek sequels when the Robotech live action movie comes out.

If Battlestar Galactica, District 9 and JJ Abrams Star Trek are any indicators, people want Space Operas. And for a live action robot sci-fi genre Robotech WILL have the upper hand over Transformers.

Yes, it's quiet now, but we'll have alot to say in the future

Says a guy who has been enthusiastic about empty promises for YEARS and always plagued by a conflict of interest. Seriously, his just reward these days should be more waiting for anything with uncertainty. And buying a lot of crap that totally means nothing. Stay whipped.

And Paramount was so scared about a potential movie by a rival company that has no progress at all that how Transformers 2 turned out is totally not Michael Bay's fault.

Edited November 11, 2009 by Einherjar

[Freiflug88]

Yeah, that's a very fair assessment. However, if that were to ever happen, I wonder how much western influence would affect Macross future installments? Right now, while we do complain about blockades and whatnot, how different, if at all, do you think Macross would've been if it was strongly linked to the west? I think the double edged sword of having Macross exclusive for Japan, is that it isn't influenced by the west, and keeps it where we like it. The bad side, obviously, is that DVDs are coded differently (work around), no subs (is usually worked around and can be done by the R.2 distributor), and the prices of merchandise and the media is more expensive (yeah, we have to save a bit more).

No Western Influcnce in Macross are you crazy? I could go on about how Noboru Isburu absolutely loved San Franciscos and how Shouji Kawamori watched F-14s take off from American carriers stationed in Japan during college breaks.

Honestly I absolutely hate it when otaku state that "Western Influence" kills anime, as if to imply that creating anime is a sacred privilege to asians cause Westerners are just uncool or something. I know they mean to say they hate it when anime creators feeling pressured to make big changes to their show to appeal to western audiences in American and Europe. Resorting to terms "Western Influcence" though seems to imply that we Westerners are ruining the anime simply because we are Westerns and we exist.

I also have to say that the right kind of Western Influcence such as the San Francisco in Frontier, the Hollywood ship in Macross 7, and all the foriegn languages heard in the paning shots of Macross city in Macross DYRL only help the series. One of the main premises of Macross is that race, gender, etc don't matter and that behind all those superficial labels what we define as "humanity" and "emotions" is universal. To say that Western Influcence has no place in a series like Macross that highlights this very notion of humanity being universal in every individual is just absurd.

IMHO I would think that Pamela Anderson would have the hots for me if she only knew me. That's why she's done everything in her power to not come to Poland. It's because deep down, she feels that if she does, she'll stumble upon me and end up giving me a blow job.

Pete

Just prove to Pam that the beachs in Poland are awesome, and that polish guys obviously have nice poles and she'll fly to see you in Poland in a heartbeat. Then you can create a sex tape and have it allegedly leaked without your knowledge to the interwebs with the name "RobotechXXX: Super Dimensional Fokkers."

Now if you hurry and make the tape now you and Pam could become a "western influence" to those korean animators and have a reference in Shadow Rising.

[Jasonc]

IMHO I would look at the impact that Paramounts' Transformers had on the movie industry with Paramount and Warner Brothers being direct competitors to one another as to the indication of Robotech's popularity and possible fan size. I think Warner Brothers' choice to counter Transformers with Robotech is a wise move.

And personally I think Paramount realizes this, if you look at the quality of the second Transformers movie which seemed to suffer from a 'rushed' production cycle and that i'm certain is possibly due to fearing the impact that Warner Brothers' Robotech movie would have on their sales figures.

Also what movie would you choose to watch these days, one that is focused on robots that every five minutes have to smash something to wow the crowds with toned down violence and silly plots or the other, one that has a sci-fi setting is deep and complex with a rich universe on par with that of Star Trek or Battlestar Galactica that is focused on emotional and intriguing human stories.

I'm betting that Paramount is quaking in their boots, knowing the potential that Robotech has in making a robot genre that can be critical in telling stories involving emotional human drama. It's why Paramount is trying to turn as many of these Transformers movies out they can before they make their new focus on the Star Trek sequels when the Robotech live action movie comes out.

If Battlestar Galactica, District 9 and JJ Abrams Star Trek are any indicators, people want Space Operas. And for a live action robot sci-fi genre Robotech WILL have the upper hand over Transformers.

Yes, it's quiet now, but we'll have alot to say in the future

Weren't the rt fans getting banned for fan speculation??? This is by far, one of the more retarded posts from a mod I've read in awhile. First off, what would make him think that Paramount is scared of Robotech? The trend of robot movies has been good to Paramount, but WB banking on a series that is not as well known is questionalble at best. I'd be willing to bet the farm that Paramount's decisions to produce Transformers at the rate they are has nothing to do with Robotech. I find it laughable that these RT elitists believe that Robotech has that much power, and that it influences the movie industry that much. C'mon, get a clue guys.

[VFTF1]

Just got off the phone with Pamela Anderson. She said she'd come visit, but she's already booked as a hostess during some upcoming Robotech convention.

Man.

Those Robotech guys. Their franchise is so powerful. Holywood rushes to churn out Blockbusters before Robotech comes in to steam roll the competition, and they even have Pamela Anderson on board.

Man. Macross is hopeless.

Face it guys. We can't compete. I mean - let's start off with the fact that our favorite anime is in a foriegn language - and it's not even like Mexican or something but it's Japanese. I mean - come on. How many people watch Japanese movies? I mean the only Japanese movie that I think is popular in America is Chuck Norris or something.

Next we have Robotech's epic space opera which as we all know was the springboard for other shows like Star Trek.

Oh - what's the use? You are all so blinded by your Macross Puritanism that you won't listen to me anyways.

I like Macross, seriously. It's a decent quality piece of work - but man...it just can't compete with the genius of Robotech.

Pete

[Penguin]

I really don't see the logic of saying "hey - there's a big interest in Japanese anime so let's bring it over, butcher it, dub it, change the story, change the names, change the dialogue, change the music and sell it."

Well, there is a segment of the anime import industry that gleefully butchers, dubs, changes the story, the names, the dialogue, the music, and never looks back, even though it has to be more expensive than a simple, competent sub. All they want is bright flashing colours to keep interest in between commercials.

There are those who's motivation is "we want animation we don't have to produce to shove at TV viewers". I've known a couple of writers for some kid-aimed anime shows who admitted they ignored the original show and just made up their own story to overlay the animation. Granted, this is for stuff in the realm of Beyblades or Pokemon and other child-fodder where story quality isn't really a concern and subtitles don't fly.

[VF5SS]

So those numbers mean Robotech does no better or worse in America than a low level mecha series. I understand they want to keep their share of the market, but the market wasn't never that vast to begin with. Didn't Macross Frontier sells far more units with its first volume? Not to mention the soundtrack CDs making the big charts in Japan.

[VFTF1]

Yes, but you have to remember that the relatively low sales of Shadow Chronicles is actually the result of HG purposefully keeping the lid on this stupendous movie so as not to ruin WB's planned future super PR blitz for the LAM.

Pete

[Einherjar]

So those numbers mean Robotech does no better or worse in America than a low level mecha series. I understand they want to keep their share of the market, but the market wasn't never that vast to begin with. Didn't Macross Frontier sells far more units with its first volume? Not to mention the soundtrack CDs making the big charts in Japan.

But those numbers could represent sales made only in Amazon.com. That may not even be accurate enough to make any real conclusions.

Edited November 11, 2009 by Einherjar

[Freiflug88]

Amazon also updates their sale rankings every hour. For instance when Gubba posted Robotech Protoculture Collection was #10,297, now its listed as #12,639. The Amazon sales ranking is just a ploy to show to consumers what other people have been buying recently and is constantly changing depending on who buys what. Its by no means an accurate source to determine what has more successful sales.

[VF5SS]

But those numbers could represent sales made only in Amazon.com. That may not even be accurate enough to make any real conclusions.

Still, how many places can you buy anime these days? Best Buy cut their anime section down and other brick-and-mortar stores aren't filled with anything but pre-sold copies or just the big titles like Bleach, Naruto, and DBZ.

[BeyondTheGrave]

simplified

I feel it'd be quite hard to not have some sort western influence in anime.From how the characters are designed, location of the story or even the story.

I'd like to see a legal release of the various Macross series and games. But until HG gets good management(which does not exist anywhere)or bankrupt. Then its not happening anytime too soon. I don't think too many bastadizations happen anymore.

Maverick_LSC wrote a barnstormer of a post on on the "Hey Kev, What Was the Budget" thread over at RT.com.

I'll refrain from commentary for the moment and just let the words speak for themselves:

IMHO I would look at the impact that Paramounts' Transformers had on the movie industry with Paramount and Warner Brothers being direct competitors to one another as to the indication of Robotech's popularity and possible fan size. I think Warner Brothers' choice to counter Transformers with Robotech is a wise move.

And personally I think Paramount realizes this, if you look at the quality of the second Transformers movie which seemed to suffer from a 'rushed' production cycle and that i'm certain is possibly due to fearing the impact that Warner Brothers' Robotech movie would have on their sales figures.

Also what movie would you choose to watch these days, one that is focused on robots that every five minutes have to smash something to wow the crowds with toned down violence and silly plots or the other, one that has a sci-fi setting is deep and complex with a rich universe on par with that of Star Trek or Battlestar Galactica that is focused on emotional and intriguing human stories.

I'm betting that Paramount is quaking in their boots, knowing the potential that Robotech has in making a robot genre that can be critical in telling stories involving emotional human drama. It's why Paramount is trying to turn as many of these Transformers movies out they can before they make their new focus on the Star Trek sequels when the Robotech live action movie comes out.

If Battlestar Galactica, District 9 and JJ Abrams Star Trek are any indicators, people want Space Operas. And for a live action robot sci-fi genre Robotech WILL have the upper hand over Transformers.

Yes, it's quiet now, but we'll have alot to say in the future

Sooo... Rt is more popular than Transformers and is a space opera with a deep, complex and rich universe? Is he talking about the novels?

I'm speechless. I want to hear your commentary.

[VF5SS]

Hah. District 9 and the new Star Trek are pretty far from being space operas. Both were just action or adventure type films with a sci-fi setting.

[Freiflug88]

Space opera is a subgenre of speculative fiction or science fiction that emphasizes romantic, often melodramatic adventure, set mainly or entirely in space, generally involving conflict between opponents possessing powerful (and sometimes quite fanciful) technologies and abilities. Perhaps the most significant trait of space opera is that settings, characters, battles, powers, and themes tend to be very large-scale.

Before the 1970s, the term space opera was used in a negative sense, to denote bad quality science fiction, but over time it changed meaning, to describe a particular science fiction genre, without any value judgment.

SDF Macross is a space opera so by default Robotech: THe Macross Saga is a space opera as well. As for the Robotech Live-Action moive its script isn't even done yet so their is no way to tell yet if it will even turn out to be a space opera or a Sci-Fi action adventure flick if its ever made. Personally I am betting Sci-Fi action adventure flick, for one the Love Triangle plot would likely bring issues and also Hollywood just doesn't do Space Operas.

[Gubaba]

Sooo... Rt is more popular than Transformers and is a space opera with a deep, complex and rich universe? Is he talking about the novels?

I'm speechless. I want to hear your commentary.

Since you asked...

IMHO I would look at the impact that Paramounts' Transformers had on the movie industry with Paramount and Warner Brothers being direct competitors to one another as to the indication of Robotech's popularity and possible fan size. I think Warner Brothers' choice to counter Transformers with Robotech is a wise move.

So...Maverick says that WB is trying to compete with Paramount. Transformer has a large fanbase, so Robotech's must be comparable, or else it couldn't successfully compete.

The logic is flawed here. Certainly, WB wants a success, the bigger the better, but the idea that they picked RT because of the size of the existing fanbase...well, where's the proof?

And personally I think Paramount realizes this, if you look at the quality of the second Transformers movie which seemed to suffer from a 'rushed' production cycle and that i'm certain is possibly due to fearing the impact that Warner Brothers' Robotech movie would have on their sales figures.

I love the phrasing: He is certain that it's possibly due to Robotech. So he's 100% sure that there's maybe a chance that Transformers 2 was "rushed" because Paramount was afraid of the RT movie coming out.

This makes no sense to me. The first Transformers was a huge success It's like saying that Empire Strikes Back had to come out quickly because Lucas was afraid that Battle Beyond the Stars might steal its thunder (NOTE: I'm not comparing Star Wars and Transformers in overall quality...just in monetary value).

Also what movie would you choose to watch these days, one that is focused on robots that every five minutes have to smash something to wow the crowds with toned down violence and silly plots or the other, one that has a sci-fi setting is deep and complex with a rich universe on par with that of Star Trek or Battlestar Galactica that is focused on emotional and intriguing human stories.

How does he know that the RT movie will even HAVE a "deep and complex" setting and will be "focused on emotional and intriguing human stories"? Some could make a case that the TV show had that (I won't, however), but would that remain in the movie? No one can know that except the higher-ups who are making the movie.

I'm betting that Paramount is quaking in their boots, knowing the potential that Robotech has in making a robot genre that can be critical in telling stories involving emotional human drama. It's why Paramount is trying to turn as many of these Transformers movies out they can before they make their new focus on the Star Trek sequels when the Robotech live action movie comes out.

Yes...quaking in their boots. VFTF1 rebutted this argument better than I ever could.

If Battlestar Galactica, District 9 and JJ Abrams Star Trek are any indicators, people want Space Operas. And for a live action robot sci-fi genre Robotech WILL have the upper hand over Transformers.

District 9 is a space opera...? Yes, Battlestar Galactica and Star Trek were major successes, but so was (God help us) Transformers 2. People clearly want to see that, as well.

The big problem overall is that Maverick_LSC is acting like he knows what the movie will be...and no one knows that yet. This is not Robotech vs. Transformers. This is Maverick_LSC's vision of what he'd like the Robotech movie to be vs. Transformers. Now, there's nothing wrong with that, but at least he should be frank about it. To say, "it's a grand space opera with deep characters and an enthralling plot" is simply false. "I hope it will be a grand space opera with deep characters and an enthralling plot" is more accurate. I guess it's kind of the opposite of a straw man argument. Instead of constructing a flimsy, easily-seen-through travesty of Transformers, and beating it with Robotech, he's made a fantasy Robotech that is classy and wonderful, and beaten Transformers with it.

Take out all the wish-fulfillment, and you're left with very little. I wouldn't call it lying exactly, but it's not completely truthful, either. There's nothing wrong with wanting a great Robotech movie, and indeed, a great Robotech movie would have it all over Transformers, because it's, well, great. But there is no logic is his arguments, and precious few facts. It's like saying, "Could Spiderman beat up Superman? Of course, if it's SUPER-Spiderman who has power of invulnerability and invisibility and an endless supply of Kryptonite."

Yes, it's quiet now, but we'll have alot to say in the future

How many years have they been saying this? Now, I'm not saying it won't happen...but I don't blame the fans for being skeptical.

[Seto Kaiba]

Sooo... Rt is more popular than Transformers and is a space opera with a deep, complex and rich universe? Is he talking about the novels?

I'm speechless. I want to hear your commentary.

Well, Maverick fancies himself a bit of an expert on the film industry because he CLAIMS to work in something related to production. I forget exactly what he does, but it seems like pretentious bullshit comes as a free side dish when you order the Harmony Gold propagnada. As far as Robotech's popularity goes, he's one of those who lives in a fantasy world where Robotech actually has more than just a handful of fans.

Last I checked, Transformers had ALWAYS been infinitely more popular than Robotech... and that the far more competently produced and advertised Transformers movie was a prime factor in the failure of Robotech's first movie... to say nothing of the fact that the G1 Transformers series outperformed Robotech so badly during their initial runs that calling Robotech its competition is borderline absurd. After all, which one does everyone remember after all these years? (If you answered "Robotech", I'm going to have to ask you to leave some organs behind to ensure the safety of the gene pool)

[Seto Kaiba]

I love the phrasing: He is certain that it's possibly due to Robotech. So he's 100% sure that there's maybe a chance that Transformers 2 was "rushed" because Paramount was afraid of the RT movie coming out.

It's also 100% possible that some deluded fool out there is certain that it's due to Robotech!

The big problem overall is that Maverick_LSC is acting like he knows what the movie will be...and no one knows that yet.

Like MEMO, Maverick desperately wants people to think that he's got connections, when he really doesn't.

How many years have they been saying this? Now, I'm not saying it won't happen...but I don't blame the fans for being skeptical.

Something like 3, maybe 4 years now?

[Vepariga]

I remember listening to an interveiw ages ago saying that the 'Robotech' movie will have completely different mecha designs,so maybe robotech will break away abit and become more original on its own right, who knows lol,maybe the movie will be against its 'Haydonites' instead of the Zentradi. I look forward to the merchindise from it anyway ,might prove interesting..

Edited November 12, 2009 by Vepariga

[HappyPenguins]

I had a dream the Robotech movie was hilariously BAD

the mecha designs were poo the acting was poo

it was all one big laughable pile of poo

I wonder if that dream will come true?

[Funkenstein]

If WB really wanted a good and popular Giant Robot franchise to make a live action movie they would have gotten Armored Troopers VOTOMS or Mobile Suit Gundam. I suspect the reason why they are interested in Robotech is because the franchise is extremely cheap as opposed to Bandai's series'. WB would be able to play better hardball against a bunch of nobodies than say another large corporation.

[Gubaba]

If WB really wanted a good and popular Giant Robot franchise to make a live action movie they would have gotten Armored Troopers VOTOMS or Mobile Suit Gundam. I suspect the reason why they are interested in Robotech is because the franchise is extremely cheap as opposed to Bandai's series'. WB would be able to play better hardball against a bunch of nobodies than say another large corporation.

But let's be fair...while "Robotech" is far from being a household name in the Western world, it's certainly more so than "Votoms" or (possibly) "Gundam."

Besides, if they made an American Gundam movie, it would probably be Gundam Wing (since that was the most popular in the U.S.)...and NOBODY wants that, right?

[Einherjar]

If WB really wanted a good and popular Giant Robot franchise to make a live action movie they would have gotten Armored Troopers VOTOMS or Mobile Suit Gundam. I suspect the reason why they are interested in Robotech is because the franchise is extremely cheap as opposed to Bandai's series'. WB would be able to play better hardball against a bunch of nobodies than say another large corporation.

Remember G-Saviour? It's the closest Gundam fans ever got so far. I want to say Gundam is possible, but I agree with you about the roadblocks for that. Also, because Tomino doesn't want to get screwed around with. Votoms would be nice, but because of how mature it is there's the risk that it'll get watered down somewhat. Better for no one to touch either of them until someone comes along who really treats them with respect.

One thing I'd like to say is that both those shows have creators who may or may not be sensitive about how their material is going to be used. In fact, they still have creators. Robotech is more corporately owned now (It might be the same with Gundam in a sense, though). Its "creator" is no longer directly affiliated with HG anymore, and was totally fine with new people derailing the story he officially created.

Edited November 12, 2009 by Einherjar

[Zen72]

Hi all!

I had to chime in on Maverick_LSC's "statements" I posted something similar on Happy Penguin's site

So Mav says;

"IMHO I would look at the impact that Paramounts' Transformers had on the movie industry with Paramount and Warner Brothers being direct competitors to one another as to the indication of Robotech's popularity and possible fan size. I think Warner Brothers' choice to counter Transformers with Robotech is a wise move.

And personally I think Paramount realizes this, if you look at the quality of the second Transformers movie which seemed to suffer from a 'rushed' production cycle and that i'm certain is possibly due to fearing the impact that Warner Brothers' Robotech movie would have on their sales figures.

Also what movie would you choose to watch these days, one that is focused on robots that every five minutes have to smash something to wow the crowds with toned down violence and silly plots or the other, one that has a sci-fi setting is deep and complex with a rich universe on par with that of Star Trek or Battlestar Galactica that is focused on emotional and intriguing human stories.

I'm betting that Paramount is quaking in their boots, knowing the potential that Robotech has in making a robot genre that can be critical in telling stories involving emotional human drama. It's why Paramount is trying to turn as many of these Transformers movies out they can before they make their new focus on the Star Trek sequels when the Robotech live action movie comes out.

If Battlestar Galactica, District 9 and JJ Abrams Star Trek are any indicators, people want Space Operas. And for a live action robot sci-fi genre Robotech WILL have the upper hand over Transformers.

Yes, it's quiet now, but we'll have alot to say in the future."

(sigh and shake my head).....Where to begin? i will try to be objective....but I think it just won't happen....

Taking into consderation that Mav and his ilk spy on things here for Robotech lambs who stray away...I will address him directly....

IMHO= In My Honest Opinion....so when it's YOUR honest opinion, it is a valid one. However when others have presented you with their honest opinions about your damned Macross rights, sometimes with some extensive research of their own, they are deserving to be silenced because you feel they enjoy the "suffering of others" (I'll never get where you got that one....)

Double standard, thy name is....

Paramount is possibly fearing Warner Brother's Robotech Movie impact? Have you noticed, Transformers has a two movie lead on Robotech? And what's sad, if anybody made a similar opinion saying the exact opposite on the forums you "proudly" moderate...banhammer time!

Double standard again, thy name is.....

And I enjoy Robotech, but to put it up to par with franchises like Star Trek and BSG? Franchises where the parent companies have made a solid effort to promote, expand, on and off screen. Harmony Gold has had almost 25 years to do that and all it resulted was in The Shadow Chronicles? Please!!!!!!!!!....(and I don't count the Live Action Movie as a result because it's not even moved past preproduction.) I do believe when one looks good at it, Robotech is a great story, but don't inflate it into something that it hasn't achieved like other franchises, some of which have been in existence less time and have a bigger following. That's insulting to the fandom.

You're betting Paramount is quaking in their boots? Once again with the fantasy scenarios. You think Paramount with movie franchises like Transformers AND Star Trek at hand to promote they are really going to be concerned with a "concept" in preproduction? Something straight from the heart to you Mav....You make a better moderator than a bookie. ...OH BUT WAIT!.....You're being SERIOUS!...

Here's a bet for you. Harmony Gold has put all their eggs in the Warner Brothers basket in the hopes of a Live Action Movie. If it's shelved that means they are back to the drawing board on promoting the franchise and we've seen what they can do in 20 plus years. Well...at least there's your Shadow Chronicles. (I don't include the original 85 as it seems HG has shelved that which is sad.) Of course your "bets" should be taken as gospel, being an HG acolyte and all. Anything to the contrary....well we know what happens...must cause you some sort of suffering....QUAKING IN THEIR BOOTS?...And you're trying to feed this line to the Robotech fandom? You've got to be **itting me!

Robotech WILL have the upper hand on Transformers? Bold statement. Can it happen? I don't know. I'm still iffy on that it even makes it past pre production. But once again Maverick, it's just your opinion. Amazing you haven't been banned yet from Robotech.com for stating them. Some would actually say it's a shame you haven't. But I digress....

We'll have a lot to say in the future?..... We? Damn! Sucking up, zero tolerance to adverse opinions that cause you "suffering", and using legitmate diseases as weapons against fans must've sure slotted you into the constellations of the "know" over at Harmony Gold. Sure didn't give you the knowledge to think before you open your mouth.

I would love to see the franchise succeed on the merits, problem is with current management, they are hard to come by! I don't know the workings of Hollywood and right now the fandom is asked to take up a culture of wait and see, with the Live Action Movie. But to make the preposterous statements like the ones quoted above is ignorant, and at the same time not being able to handle if a Robotech fan "dares" present a counterpoint is hypocritical...but look who I am talking about here? First your OCD statements, now this. What "message" will you have next for the fandom Maverick? Here's something hard pressed to say.... I think Kevin Mckeever surpasses you by miles in quality of his "statements"

Please stick to moderating Robotech.com Mav and quit trying to pass the Kool-aid around to a fandom you think that you are "better than". Incredibly, it makes you look less foolish...

Take care guys!

Zen72

[Gubaba]

Hi all!

I had to chime in on Maverick_LSC's "statements" I posted something similar on Happy Penguin's site

So Mav says;

(sigh and shake my head).....Where to begin? i will try to be objective....but I think it just won't happen....

Taking into consderation that Mav and his ilk spy on things here for Robotech lambs who stray away...I will address him directly....

IMHO= In My Honest Opinion....so when it's YOUR honest opinion, it is a valid one. However when others have presented you with their honest opinions about your damned Macross rights, sometimes with some extensive research of their own, they are deserving to be silenced because you feel they enjoy the "suffering of others" (I'll never get where you got that one....)

Double standard, thy name is....

Paramount is possibly fearing Warner Brother's Robotech Movie impact? Have you noticed, Transformers has a two movie lead on Robotech? And what's sad, if anybody made a similar opinion saying the exact opposite on the forums you "proudly" moderate...banhammer time!

Double standard again, thy name is.....

And I enjoy Robotech, but to put it up to par with franchises like Star Trek and BSG? Franchises where the parent companies have made a solid effort to promote, expand, on and off screen. Harmony Gold has had almost 25 years to do that and all it resulted was in The Shadow Chronicles? Please!!!!!!!!!....(and I don't count the Live Action Movie as a result because it's not even moved past preproduction.) I do believe when one looks good at it, Robotech is a great story, but don't inflate it into something that it hasn't achieved like other franchises, some of which have been in existence less time and have a bigger following. That's insulting to the fandom.

You're betting Paramount is quaking in their boots? Once again with the fantasy scenarios. You think Paramount with movie franchises like Transformers AND Star Trek at hand to promote they are really going to be concerned with a "concept" in preproduction? Something straight from the heart to you Mav....You make a better moderator than a bookie. ...OH BUT WAIT!.....You're being SERIOUS!...

Here's a bet for you. Harmony Gold has put all their eggs in the Warner Brothers basket in the hopes of a Live Action Movie. If it's shelved that means they are back to the drawing board on promoting the franchise and we've seen what they can do in 20 plus years. Well...at least there's your Shadow Chronicles. (I don't include the original 85 as it seems HG has shelved that which is sad.) Of course your "bets" should be taken as gospel, being an HG acolyte and all. Anything to the contrary....well we know what happens...must cause you some sort of suffering....QUAKING IN THEIR BOOTS?...And you're trying to feed this line to the Robotech fandom? You've got to be **itting me!

Robotech WILL have the upper hand on Transformers? Bold statement. Can it happen? I don't know. I'm still iffy on that it even makes it past pre production. But once again Maverick, it's just your opinion. Amazing you haven't been banned yet from Robotech.com for stating them. Some would actually say it's a shame you haven't. But I digress....

We'll have a lot to say in the future?..... We? Damn! Sucking up, zero tolerance to adverse opinions that cause you "suffering", and using legitmate diseases as weapons against fans must've sure slotted you into the constellations of the "know" over at Harmony Gold. Sure didn't give you the knowledge to think before you open your mouth.

I would love to see the franchise succeed on the merits, problem is with current management, they are hard to come by! I don't know the workings of Hollywood and right now the fandom is asked to take up a culture of wait and see, with the Live Action Movie. But to make the preposterous statements like the ones quoted above is ignorant, and at the same time not being able to handle if a Robotech fan "dares" present a counterpoint is hypocritical...but look who I am talking about here? First your OCD statements, now this. What "message" will you have next for the fandom Maverick? Here's something hard pressed to say.... I think Kevin Mckeever surpasses you by miles in quality of his "statements"

Please stick to moderating Robotech.com Mav and quit trying to pass the Kool-aid around to a fandom you think that you are "better than". Incredibly, it makes you look less foolish...

Take care guys!

Zen72

I'll be the first to admit that I don't know Mav, I've never spoken with him or interacted with him in any way...as such, I don't want to be insulting, but yeah...what he's saying is clearly nonsense, and it DOES make him look bad. Either he believes that Transformers 2 was "rushed" into production because the studio feared that Robotech would come along and steal all their glory (which is just silly), or he doesn't believe it, but expects everyone else to (which is even sillier).

I think it was Azrael that referred to the RT.com people as a "colorful crew." That seems about right.

But hey...at least Maverick_LSC can type normally, with correct spelling and grammar. That gives him a leg up on *ahem* other people over there.

[Freiflug88]

If WB really wanted a good and popular Giant Robot franchise to make a live action movie they would have gotten Armored Troopers VOTOMS or Mobile Suit Gundam. I suspect the reason why they are interested in Robotech is because the franchise is extremely cheap as opposed to Bandai's series'. WB would be able to play better hardball against a bunch of nobodies than say another large corporation.

Well re-considering that almost all the Entertainment news artlicles have cited that Tobey Maquire acquired the rights to his own studio and that Warner Bros will be producing it seems like Tobey is the rich Robotech fan who bought the movie rights and struck a deal with WB Studio to produce it. Sorta like how Steven Speilburg acquired movie rights to Ghost in the Shell which he admits is "one of his favorite stories" with his own money and then gave it to Dreamworks (which he owns a third of) to produce 3D movie. In Tobey's case his studio company Maguire Entertainment probably isn't capable of producing Robotech all on their own meanwhile WB Execs were curious for something to follow Transformers lead, so they meet and end up with a joint-production deal. Chances are the guys at WB aren't anime fans and mecha franchises were a complete unknown to them.

[Lolicon]

Is he saying that the Robotech LAM will be so successful that it will bend time and space and retroactively eliminate the billion dollars Transformers has made for Paramount? If so, I'd be shaking in my boots too.

[Seto Kaiba]

I'll be the first to admit that I don't know Mav, I've never spoken with him or interacted with him in any way...as such, I don't want to be insulting, but yeah...what he's saying is clearly nonsense, and it DOES make him look bad.

[...]

But hey...at least Maverick_LSC can type normally, with correct spelling and grammar. That gives him a leg up on *ahem* other people over there.

In my experience, Maverick_LSC has a bad habit of making questionable claims and exploiting his mod status to post his opinions as though they were fact, regardless of whether or not they actually resemble reality. Like MEMO, Maverick's a long-time Harmony Gold suckup, though instead of being motivated by the misguided belief that it'll eventually land him a job, Maverick's motivation appears to be a simple desire to increase his standing in what remains of the fanbase. He's the type who desperately wants to have connections and an inside track on the franchise, or at least make people think he does, because he thinks that'll make him better than the average fan and earn him the respect and admiration of his former peers.

For Maverick_LSC, the problem is that he has no way to legitimately come by the respect of his peers. He doesn't have any connections at Harmony Gold or an inside track on the Robotech franchise. He doesn't even know much about Robotech itself. All he really has is a position of fake authority as a moderator on a corporate fansite that he got by kissing ass and working for free at conventions, which didn't really do anything for his standing in the community. As a result, the only way he can actually make himself appear well-informed is to use his mod powers to silence anyone who knows more than he does. That way, he can make ridiculous claims and talk with authority about subjects he doesn't understand without fear of being contradicted and exposed as the fraud he is.