Ichiro Itano is a mean man.

[yellowlightman]

Itano might be an anti-semite, but he's 100% correct on this one.

I disagree about needing to watch the entire thing to badmouth it. It's pretty obvious after the first 7-8 episodes that Frontier is garbage.

[Freiflug88]

I'm not saying you're totally wrong (I'm not into the moe thing either, but I *do* love Frontier), but...isn't Minmay pretty moe?

I would say that Minmay certainly fits ONE classic definition of Moe as an exotic beauty, that is physically and/or emotionally vulnerable girl. I also agree that Minmay did have her moe moments, but they were never exaggerated in a Looney Tunes style way like Frontier and other modern anime often do for comedic effect.

but but, remember that shower scene where ranka was completely nude and she does a slow 360 while the camera lingered on her completely exposed breasts? That was pretty offensive, certainly the original Macross show would never have anything so blatantly sexual especially with an underage character.

The orignal Macross did have its sexual moments, but they were short to the point and, few and far between. In Frontier though you have plenty of moments in practically every episode that were obviously set up just to appeal to fan fetishes, to the point where Frontier is most memorial for its fanserive and its sexual pop songs.

[eugimon]

True, I remember that one scene where Ozma, Michael and lucas make fun of alto for not sealing the deal with Ranka. And that other scene where michael sits there total transfixed by Klan's breasts and thinks about what they would look like if she were undressed. Or when alto tries to get ranka to a motel to have sex, or that creepy incest angle between ranka and her cousin. Or hey, remember in the first episode how Ozma is checking out ranka and alto just laughs it off, how it's perfectly fine for a grown ass man to be lusting after an underage girl? Haha, that Ozma, pedophilia is funny. Man, SDFM and DYRL were so tame and downright puritan in comparison.

[mike_s_6]

I think Itano has the right to say what he wants to say, but of course the more controversial the things said, the more talk it would induce. In just the same way he spoke his mind, the people here also has the right to say what they think about it. With that, please don't tell the fans who are criticizing his words that it's not called for. Just like any other artist with substantial popularity, and whose words might be taken as some as worship-worthy, counterpoints are to be expected.

[sketchley]

Maybe he has a point: the scenario above is about as realistic as US Navy Seals sniping Somali pirates from the fan deck of a US destroyer while the pirates are taking cover inside a lifeboat......while both vessels are moving independently of each other floating on the ocean! Good grief - what are those Frontier guys thinking!!

Talk about comparing apples and oranges.

Didn't the snipers set up a trap and remain concealed? Wasn't the Destroyer towing the lifeboat behind them at the time? Didn't the snipers wait for the opportunity to shoot all 3 pirates at the same time?

Itano's beef is that a sniper is being used inaccurately. Not that it's being used on a moving object against other moving objects.

[eugimon]

Talk about comparing apples and oranges.

Didn't the snipers set up a trap and remain concealed? Wasn't the Destroyer towing the lifeboat behind them at the time? Didn't the snipers wait for the opportunity to shoot all 3 pirates at the same time?

Itano's beef is that a sniper is being used inaccurately. Not that it's being used on a moving object against other moving objects.

No, it was both. He complains about using the asteroid as a base AND because the sniper rifle is used at close range... Which is a mainstay in action movies and video games so it's hardly like Frontier was the first to do that.

[sketchley]

No, it was both. He complains about using the asteroid as a base AND because the sniper rifle is used at close range... Which is a mainstay in action movies and video games so it's hardly like Frontier was the first to do that.

What I got was that the asteroid disrupted 1/2 the field of view. In on-going combat in an asteroid without appropriate back-up, it's a silly thing to do.

Agreed that MF wasn't the first to do it, but the fact that many other movies and video games are doing it doesn't make it any more correct.

Anyhow, it's Itano's view, and I'm not out to defend it. Just pointing out that aquilon's comparison is incorrect.

[jenius]

Interviewer: So Mr. Itano, what do you think of Macross Frontier?

Itano: They didn't pay me for it so it sucks.

Interviewer: Oh, that's uh...

Itano: Yeah, the whole industry sucks.

Interviewer: But you work in the industry and you've worked on a bunch of stuff that sounds exactly like what you're complaining about

Itano: Yeah but they paid me so those projects don't suck.

[eugimon]

What I got was that the asteroid disrupted 1/2 the field of view. In on-going combat in an asteroid without appropriate back-up, it's a silly thing to do.

Agreed that MF wasn't the first to do it, but the fact that many other movies and video games are doing it doesn't make it any more correct.

Anyhow, it's Itano's view, and I'm not out to defend it. Just pointing out that aquilon's comparison is incorrect.

Aquilon is basing his comparison off of the translation in the OP:

...

Itano: I DID watch all of Macross F. It's not fair to badmouth something without seeing it (chuckle).

So, like, there's one bit where a sniper in space mounts himself on an asteroid, right? But by doing so half his field of vision is gone. And asteroids aren't stationary so his aim is going to be really unstable. And then they use sniper rifles at point blank range? I notice this sort of stuff, you know.

...

[jenius]

I love hearing anyone within anime complaining about the direction it's going in because usually I agree with it. I can definitely see myself not watching any more anime at some point in the near future... then I'll have kids... then ten years from now I'll probably watch anime again because my kids will be into it.

[VFTF1]

What I got was that the asteroid disrupted 1/2 the field of view. In on-going combat in an asteroid without appropriate back-up, it's a silly thing to do.

But using the asteroid made more sense than any of the alternatives. I mean - what is he going to do? Just stay motionless in the void of space and fire? You do realize that doing so would send him spiraling backwards uncontrolably with the same force as the round he just shot out? It's called the laws of thermo-dynamics.

Michael HAS TO latch on to an object, preferably a MOVING object (like an asteroid) which will counter-act the force of his rifle's shot so that he doesn't go hurling backwards at breakneck speeds.

I'm sure there's a million things wrong with my explanation here - but it's pretty much as plausible as this Itano guys'.

And I totally agree with the sarcastic posts like Eugimon et al regarding the sexuality and moe in SDFM.

I would just add one thing:

For those who like to use the "yeah but in SDFM/DYRL the sexuality was short, to the point, done with taste, not so over the top" etc etc argument...

For the day and age it was done - I'm sure it was just as radical and "over the top" as some people consider what's seen in MF to be. Personally, I think Macross Frontier is just less inhibited and that's good.

I'm not sure which portions of MF were tasteless? These was a lot of erotic humor, which is kind of funny, but .... I'm not sure I see MF going overboard.

Pete

[Freiflug88]

Man, SDFM and DYRL were so tame and downright puritan in comparison.

Tame and pure, nah. It was moments like Minmey using her hologram outfit to change into slurmty outfits while singing about "fins erupting like volcanos," and "being hungry for the next stage" that literally defined the show.

Interviewer: So Mr. Itano, what do you think of Macross Frontier?

Itano: They didn't pay me for it so it sucks.

Interviewer: Oh, that's uh...

Itano: Yeah, the whole industry sucks.

Interviewer: But you work in the industry and you've worked on a bunch of stuff that sounds exactly like what you're complaining about

Itano: Yeah but they paid me so those projects don't suck.

Well was Itano ever interviewed about Plastic or similar works to actually voice his opions about them publically in the first place? He is no doubt too busy to create a blog just so he can voice to the world what he thinks of the ecchi anime he spends countless hours animating.

[-Snowblind-]

But using the asteroid made more sense than any of the alternatives. I mean - what is he going to do? Just stay motionless in the void of space and fire? You do realize that doing so would send him spiraling backwards uncontrolably with the same force as the round he just shot out? It's called the laws of thermo-dynamics.

Michael HAS TO latch on to an object, preferably a MOVING object (like an asteroid) which will counter-act the force of his rifle's shot so that he doesn't go hurling backwards at breakneck speeds.

...

Not so much, no... O.o It's all about relative mass. The mass of the round fired is going to be a tiny fraction of the mass of a VF. Firing it without bracing it isn't going to send him tumbling.

...Not to mention that there are plenty of examples of the rifle being fired without being braced. Alto using it against Grace in the last episode, for example.

[eugimon]

Tame and pure, nah. It was moments like Minmey using her hologram outfit to change into slurmty outfits while singing about "fins erupting like volcanos," and "being hungry for the next stage" that literally defined the show.

I agree, its far far more disturbing for a grown woman to be secure in her sexuality then it is for a bunch of adults to be drooling over a child and making fun because one of them wasn't able to man up and score with her.

Maybe he can also explain Battle Royal High School which also featured some nudity, an attempted rape and lots of over the top violence... he wrote and directed that one.

[VF5SS]

Lol Minmay and all the other girls in Macross probably inspired a lot doujins and fanworks back then. It's not secret the classic 80's OVA market was founded on stuff like Cream Lemon. And don't forget all the cute girls in those Macross doujin books like the MATS VF-1 book.

All those artists and creators are just doing what they've been doing since the 80's. Its just now it became more focused and marketed just everything in Japan.

tl;dr oh noez my trashy disposable entertainment is catering to people other than me

[anime52k8]

But using the asteroid made more sense than any of the alternatives. I mean - what is he going to do? Just stay motionless in the void of space and fire? You do realize that doing so would send him spiraling backwards uncontrolably with the same force as the round he just shot out? It's called the laws of thermo-dynamics.

Michael HAS TO latch on to an object, preferably a MOVING object (like an asteroid) which will counter-act the force of his rifle's shot so that he doesn't go hurling backwards at breakneck speeds.

I'm sure there's a million things wrong with my explanation here - but it's pretty much as plausible as this Itano guys'.

Well first, the law's of thermodynamics have to do with conservation of energy, transfer of energy to do work, and usable energy lost as heat. You're thinking about Newtons laws of motion, namely the second law (for every reaction there is an equal and opposite reaction.)

Anyways, yes latching onto an asteroid would be an unstable firing platform because it would be moving, but so would the mech if it's just out their floating in space. By attaching to the asteroid the mech effectively increases it's total mass, and therefor it's resting momentum. so when the gun fires, the recoil force has has more momentum to overcome before it causes a change in movement to the mech+asteroid combo. in space any force will cause an object to start moving because of the lack of friction, but a relatively small force will make the object move much slower.

As for blocking his filed of view, maybe. But the big 'ol asteroid, is going to to make a fairly effective shield for from fire on that side and provides a moderate amount of camouflage that would be lacking if the mech was simply floating in space.

Ideally, you'd want your sniper mech to be anchored to the deck of the carrier it deploys from with a Bigger gun to allow it to hit targets from the considerable range the carrier would be from the actual fighting. the poo would be a much more stable platform to fire from, being both orders of magnitude more massive and therefor more resistant to recoil forces than the asteroid, and being equipped with it's own engines and maneuvering thrusters allowing it to compensate for the recoil forces exerted on it. The problem with this though is that the mech pilot is mow far removed from the action of the battle. This would be fine in real life but in the context of a show it removes the pilot from the drama and tension of the fight. it's good tactics but not good storytelling or film making.

[Freiflug88]

I would just add one thing:

For those who like to use the "yeah but in SDFM/DYRL the sexuality was short, to the point, done with taste, not so over the top" etc etc argument...

For the day and age it was done - I'm sure it was just as radical and "over the top" as some people consider what's seen in MF to be. Personally, I think Macross Frontier is just less inhibited and that's good.

I'm not sure which portions of MF were tasteless? These was a lot of erotic humor, which is kind of funny, but .... I'm not sure I see MF going overboard.

Pete

My beef with Macross Frontier and newer anime isn't so much the less inhibited sexually its that that the erotic humor and ecchi is often over done. If your gonna sprinkle echhi moments sparingly to spice up an anime that is great, however their is no point wasting precious storytelling time showing the viewer ecchi moments every 5 minutes to constantly reinforce the idea that the female characters are sexy. As for the less inhibited sexuality, why would I want to be teased with images of almost completely nude anime girls every episode instead of actually watching a henati?

[Killer Robot]

True, I remember that one scene where Ozma, Michael and lucas make fun of alto for not sealing the deal with Ranka. And that other scene where michael sits there total transfixed by Klan's breasts and thinks about what they would look like if she were undressed. Or when alto tries to get ranka to a motel to have sex, or that creepy incest angle between ranka and her cousin. Or hey, remember in the first episode how Ozma is checking out ranka and alto just laughs it off, how it's perfectly fine for a grown ass man to be lusting after an underage girl? Haha, that Ozma, pedophilia is funny. Man, SDFM and DYRL were so tame and downright puritan in comparison.

You, sir, have made my day.

It really is interesting to see how time and nostalgia make people lose perspective so totally. I mean, I have my complaints about some of the thematic and demographic shifts of modern anime too, and Frontier isn't totally immune to them either, but some people blow it so out of proportion that if you applied the same logic SDFM would be an unwatchable mess of sex jokes, trippy magic bicycle flashbacks, and badly animated knife fights.

[Marzan]

Maybe Itano was just upset at not being invited to be part of Frontier??

[Bri]

Reading the article again I doubt the issue is sex but more the kind of sex.

Itano specifically mentioned his dislike for retarded/moe and bishji characters and fujoshi in general. I would interpret that he is angry about the "feminisation"of MF and considers it unmanly/gay. Given his previous works as mentioned by other posters I doubt he has any problems with fanservice or explicit content.

[Freiflug88]

Reading the article again I doubt the issue is sex but more the kind of sex.

Itano specifically mentioned his dislike for retarded/moe and bishji characters and fujoshi in general. I would interpret that he is angry about the "feminisation"of MF and considers it unmanly/gay. Given his previous works as mentioned by other posters I doubt he has any problems with fanservice or explicit content.

Yeah, Itano never complained about out fanserive. He complained that Frontier was removing mecha action and turning it into more of a character-based series that tries to pander to the fujoshi (fan girls). Its just like that debate over Science Fiction being feminized or not (http://io9.com/5381793/is-science-fiction-feminized-or-is-it-sexist-both).

[anime52k8]

Yeah, Itano never complained about out fanserive. He complained that Frontier was removing mecha action and turning it into more of a character-based series that tries to pander to the fujoshi (fan girls). Its just like that debate over Science Fiction being feminized or not (http://io9.com/5381793/is-science-fiction-feminized-or-is-it-sexist-both).

So exploitation is fine as long as it's also misogynistic and sexist. gotcha

[Master Dex]

People need to stop arguing about the physics of the asteroid sniper scene please! First of all some of those physics are really off (though one of the posts got it mostly right), and before you bash me for saying that I am very saddened that I know enough to say I know that some of the physics conversation here wasn't right... I now know I really am an engineer....

I think we need to let the asteroid sniper thing go, it isn't worth it. Itano is both partly right and partly wrong, I'm not elaborating on my opinion because it really doesn't matter (someone will disagree anyway).

What I will say though is, that asteroid sniper scene was freaking awesome, as well as any itano circus scene. I don't really care what the man bad mouths, stuff looks cool.

[aquilon]

Talk about comparing apples and oranges.

Didn't the snipers set up a trap and remain concealed? Wasn't the Destroyer towing the lifeboat behind them at the time? Didn't the snipers wait for the opportunity to shoot all 3 pirates at the same time?

Itano's beef is that a sniper is being used inaccurately. Not that it's being used on a moving object against other moving objects.

So comparing Navy Seals to giant robots in outer space is an apples / oranges comparison? Can't disagree with that....And of course the whole thing was a set-up. But if his beef is a sniper taking up position on a moving base and taking out bad guys that are also moving, it's most certainly done. It's not ideal or preferred but it is done. And in a firefight, you fight with what you brung.

[Roy Focker]

Speaking of Minmay.

Her Moe period was pretty short. By the time she's Miss Macross she is no longer treated as the sweet young girl but a celebrity. In DYRL she's actual 2 years older. Milia was 15 is she not? Sheryl is 17. Those characters would be closer to jail bait. Their physiques are more adult like and tend to dressed like adults ( or Sheryl 's case a stripper). Then there are characters like Ranka, Klan Klan & Mylene that are designed to look their age. You'll see them in cute outfits that make them seem even younger. Sure Minmay had their eye candy moments but you can count them on your hands. You'll need to go ten extra arms to count the moments in Frontier. Frontier just increased the scale.

Now if you have it take a look at Macross Ace. I have Volume #2 with me. It contains several stories. We have Mikimoto's Macross the First. In it we see Minmay is various states of getting dressed and Hikaru's reaction. Yes that is fan service. Then there are other stories. One has Alto in a dress and Michael making moves on him. In another story every one is taking a hot bath. When they are dressed it is close up boobs or butt. This is pretty good illustration of the difference & amount of fan service between the two. Also difference in the type of stories. Don't forget that Sheryl figure based on the image of her. You know the one I'm talking about "Rise up!" We saw Minmay's breasts but she never was about to mount a gold bullet shaped dildo. I'm sure eventually there will be one of Ranka holding a large carrot with two hands, pretending it is a microphone. Ranka of course will be dressed like little bow peep.

[VF5SS]

One has Alto in a dress and Michael making moves on him.

Wouldn't you?

[Funkenstein]

Itano is sort of right. Too many mecha anime have "moe" characters. We got the abominations known as sky girls and strike witches as examples of the zeitgeist.

[Wes]

OK so never make criticism if you can't change everything with your own two hands. Now how much do flamethrowers go for on Ebay?

[Killer Robot]

Itano is sort of right. Too many mecha anime have "moe" characters. We got the abominations known as sky girls and strike witches as examples of the zeitgeist.

I won't dispute that, it's just that Frontier really has limited similarity to those.

[D.D. Ivanov]

Milia was 15 is she not?

Human biological standards dont really count when you're actually upwards of 1000 years old.

[Gubaba]

Human biological standards dont really count when you're actually upwards of 1000 years old.

No, in all the books, it actually, flatly states that she's 15. Kamujin is 23, Britai is 34, and everyone else is "unknown."

[Freiflug88]

Human biological standards dont really count when you're actually upwards of 1000 years old.

Well,

1. Lapramiz addresses her as Milia 639

2. 639 is a serial number marking Milia as Meltrandi clone #639

3. Rewatch Gunbuster to see how female mecha pilots like Milia stay biologically young due to time dilation through Faster then light travel.

[Gubaba]

Well,

1. Lapramiz addresses her as Milia 639

2. 639 is a serial number marking Milia as Meltrandi clone #639

3. Rewatch Gunbuster to see how female mecha pilots like Milia stay biologically young due to time dilation through Faster then light travel.

But...that's only in the movie, not in the series...

Besides, are you sure about point #2?

[Ghost Train]

Arguing about physics in Macross (any scifi/anime is silly).... sound /cough in /cough space.

[Freiflug88]

But...that's only in the movie, not in the series...

Besides, are you sure about point #2?

Gunbuster was only released as a 6 episode OVA for many years. It wasn't until 2006 that a theatrical verison of Gunbuster was even released (It had new audio, but the original animated footage.) As for the "science lessons" they were actually made as bonus features for the Gunbuster laserdiscs and dvd boxsets so you won't find them anywhere on the original VHS tape releases.

Here is the Gunbuster science lesson on time dilation though:

Yeah, I am pretty sure #639 means Milia is the 639th clone on the Milia Meltrandi cloning line. I know #639 sure is hell isn't Milia ranking among the fleet.

Edited October 19, 2009 by Freiflug88