Ichiro Itano is a mean man.

[sketchley]

Whatever, the whole point I was trying to make about Milia supposedly being over a thousand years old is that her youth could be owed to all those fold jumps she and her fleet have made to battlefields across the galaxy.

I think you'd have a more convincing arguement if you went the route of having Zentraadi being in stasis until being revived for a mission.

Yes, the Zentraadi in stasis is something from the RPG, and I'm not sure how canon it is in Macross, but it's the only thing that explains the relatively young ages of the Zentraadi, the ages of their ships, and the time spent between combat operations (this is, of course, presuming that the Zentraadi weren't during much else while waiting for the Supervision Army's gun destroyer's defold reaction to be detected and that waiting is standard...).

But I degress...

[Mercurial Morpheus]

Man, I love how this thread is about two subjects, neither really having to do with Itano anymore. Interesting how the web works.

[VF5SS]

Max doesn't strike me as cougar hunter so Millia is meant to for all intensive purposes to match his age. Never mind the fact that Mikimoto recycled her design for Athena from Orguss and she's also a teenager. Further still, Millia was only as smart as your average Zentradi which is stated to be that a grade school kid. She futzes around like a idiot on the Macross (who dressed her anyway) and then she becomes Max's waifu. She never loses her edge which is why we like her, but I'm not going to award her character arc any big props for being complex or deep. If I want to see Millia with a personality I'd rather watch Macross 7.

As for Itano, I'd be more inclined to side with him if his entire career and directorial style wasn't geared to pleasing action porn enthusiasts. I can see someone voicing their concern that Moe is driving away the "casual" market, but Mr. Blassreiter isn't helping the cause.

[Freiflug88]

I wasn't attributing it to you, sorry if I made it seem so. See post above mine and Roy Fokker's for why I added in the "not about fanservice bit". Though I believe Freiflug88's to be quite satirical.

Things like that happen when you forget to put things in quotes or use @insert name here.

As for my post, I was being completely serious...

Aquarion would have been much better as a hentai, RTSC should have been Robotech: The Bay Watch Chronicles, and that Sheryl was sexy only to make the character based plot of her as the misunderstood "Galatic Hilton" better... in many interesting ways.

[Roy Focker]

Ranka's Moe factor, slurmty Shery Stripper, Klan Klan lol and She-male Alpo. These characters and more are all fan service nods to fetishes. Macross F isn't an adult only series but they pandered to all the vices. They knew what they were doing.

Itano comments

But now they say mecha won't sell, robots won't sell, so they turn it into a character-based anime AND they want the fujoshi.

Is likely very true. If you want your anime to be marketable you do above.

[VF5SS]

Well they do make up almost 50% of the market now.

[Freiflug88]

Ranka's Moe factor, slurmty Shery Stripper, Klan Klan lol and She-male Alpo. These characters and more are all fan service nods to fetishes. Macross F isn't an adult only series but they pandered to all the vices. They knew what they were doing.

Itano comments

But now they say mecha won't sell, robots won't sell, so they turn it into a character-based anime AND they want the fujoshi.

Is likely very true. If you want your anime to be marketable you do above.

Its true cause of this mecha trend:

Well that and mecha shows tend to be the worst abusers of boring viewers with recycled stock footage, something which Macross Frontier is very guilty of during practically every battle-scene post episode 7 BTW.

I don't believe its that mecha become uninteresting to fans overnight. Mecha shows for the most part have just been handled the wrong way by the industry for years causing fans to get bored of mecha shows. Not a probelm though for character based shows with lots of fan service, watching boobs never gets old... no matter how their handled.

[Gubaba]

Is likely very true. If you want your anime to be marketable you do above.

Its true cause of this mecha trend:

Hitler in a HIM shirt? I don't get it.

Now if it were Freud, I could understand, but what does Evangelion have to do with Hitler?

I also take issue with the notion that Eva started some kind of "trend" that ruined the mecha genre., but even though this thread isn't really about anything anymore, that REALLY doesn't belong here, so I'll leave it alone.

Well that and mecha shows tend to be the worst abusers of boring viewers with recycled stock footage, something which Macross Frontier is very guilty of during practically every battle-scene post episode 7 BTW.

Now you're just making stuff up. Very guilty? Yes, there were about five or six shots that got reused a couple of times. Compared to any other 25- or 26-episode series, the recycled scenes seemed relatively absent to me.

[Mercurial Morpheus]

Things like that happen when you forget to put things in quotes or use @insert name here.

As for my post, I was being completely serious...

Aquarion would have been much better as a hentai, RTSC should have been Robotech: The Bay Watch Chronicles, and that Sheryl was sexy only to make the character based plot of her as the misunderstood "Galatic Hilton" better... in many interesting ways.

I was replying to multiple prople, hence I skipped the quotes and spoke in plurals.

Seriously? I took it as such when I wrote the response, but after reading it a few times, especially that last paragraph reads like pure sarcasm. It was great. Knowing you were serious highlights the whole issue even better. Sweet, sweeet irony.

Seriously though, if you think she was made sexy only for plot reasons, you're very pure minded. Sure, a diva character makes sense as a sex pot, but you could've written her many different ways, and she'd still fit type. They just knew that making her a stage goddess would allow them to make posters much like the awful movie one, and no one would say ""Sheryl's not like that" (though it does bewilder me when they sex up Ranka for the exact same reason).

Oh, and I liked Aquarion. It wasn't great, but I remember it getting better as it went on. Though I suppose I should've watch Eureka 7 instead so I wouldn't have felt left out when people wouldn't shut up about it.

Exactly, Roy Focker. Though I think Itano has a bit of a point. I'm sure a show can sell if they just let it be, it's just that no one wants to take a chance any more (except maybe Shaft and 4c, they make some weird stuff).

Gubaba, it's from 4chan. It doesn't have to make sense.

Edited October 21, 2009 by Mercurial Morpheus

[Gubaba]

Gubaba, it's from 4chan. It doesn't have to make sense.

True. But if Freiflug88 says that it's what went wrong with the mecha genre, I'd at least like to know what he thinks it means.

[Roy Focker]

Macross Frontier, Macross TV & Macross 7 are all guilty of using recycled Mecha footage.

[Gubaba]

Macross Frontier, Macross TV & Macross 7 are all guilty of using recycled Mecha footage.

As is every other TV anime you can think of...except maybe the ones that are 13 episodes long or less.

[Freiflug88]

@Gubba

Hitler is often labeled the most emo person ever, and HIM has been mislabeled by many do be an emo band. So putting in Hitler in a HIM shirt implies that Evangelion is very emo, does it make sense now? I lifted the image was from Encyclopedia Dramatica and it implies that fans watched the series expecting a lot of action, but were left listening too whiny emo teens.

Don't get me wrong I am huge fan of Evangelion and I personally see it as the Watchmen of mecha anime as a well written deconstruction that was fresh during its time. I posted the image not to single out Evangelion, but highlight the trend of many of its imitators: rather then highlight the fact that big robots are awesome etc, they spend more show time focusing on emotional teens who more times then not come across as whiny punks deserving of a Bright slap or two. Honestly not everyone can be Hideaki Anno or Alan Moore and create an awesome entertaining story that is 3/4 characterization and 1/4 action, most attempts just lead to very dull and boring shows in my opion.

@'Mercurial Morpheus

Oh trust I me am not pure minded

My favorite part about Sheryl is her... ah I mean the favorite part about Sheryl's character was actually the fact that on one hand she appears to enjoy being the spoiled diva only turn around and show that in reality all she wanted was some one like Alto who would only treat as Sheryl the regular girl and not as Sheryl the Idol. Well as for Ranka, sexy loli girls is a popular fanserive for the fanboys in Japan. What shocked me as well is when Ozma approved let alone allowed a somewhat provocative pin-up girl image of Ranka to be painted on the side of what's her name's Transforming Monster Fighter in the series itself.

I did like Aquarion a bit as it picked up towards the end except for the final fight and the disappointing ending. After the series was done I honestly felt like I was trolled by Kawamori and that I wasted 13 hours of my life watching it. I say that it would be better as a hentai because it already teases the viewer in a way with more nudity then the typical mecha show to begin with and if it was actually hentai than my unpure mind would not have been disappointed in the boring plot or disappointed ending.

As for Eureka Seven I have heard mixed reviews from my friends namely that its a handful of decent episodes wrapped up in a 50 episode show.

EDIT: Almost forgot

@Gubba, I never bothered counting the recycled footage, but later battles did seem very repetitive to me and I felt disappointed that there would so much stock footage and scenes reused for cell-shaded CG battle sequences.

Edited October 21, 2009 by Freiflug88

[Mercurial Morpheus]

Eh, I just didn't want to say naive. Maybe I write this because I never viewed her sexuality as a huge part of her character, at least not in the way it's been described in this this thread (never helped at how mannish she looks at times when the art slips too). A lot of it is reading a bit too far into little things and whatnot (the hallmark of any fandom discussion, and why these characters suck to some, and are awesome to others, it's all about how much work you put into it). I'm merely trying to quantify Itano's position given the little we have. I never did finish Aquarion, and like I said, Eureka was the flavor of the month, making me feel like I'd watched the wrong series. I too found Monster Girl a bit odd for Ranka, but awesome as a fan of pin up nose art.

Aw well, to each his own. Hey Gubba, that shrimp and mermaid ready yet?

[Gubaba]

Aw well, to each his own. Hey Gubba, that shrimp and mermaid ready yet?

Yes. But not the way the shrimp would've liked...

[Mercurial Morpheus]

Where the heck did you find that anyway? I must've missed something.

[Bri]

One interesting point brought up and was mentioned by Itano is that mecha doesn't sell anymore. I have heard this before but haven't heard any convincing reasons for it.

[dreamweaver13]

One interesting point brought up and was mentioned by Itano is that mecha doesn't sell anymore. I have heard this before but haven't heard any convincing reasons for it.

Interesting indeed. the best way to answer this is to know some data first:

-When is period considered to be the peak of mecha popularity in japan?

-Compared to that period, how is the mecha industry doing now?

-And when we say "mecha sells?, are we talking only about anime sales, or do we include merchandising?

I would like to think that it is still as popular now as it was during its peak, but i don't really have the figures to back it up either way.

[Roy Focker]

I think he could be using "Mecha" in place of "everything else" but Moe Driven Character stuff doesn't sell. You could compare it to US Television. I create a new hit show about Hot Sexy Doctors who talk to Ghosts at crime scenes. Every episode ends with singing contest. The shows a hit! Next season there are a bunch of copy cat shows and they are a hit too. Eventually you can't get on the air without having sexy doctors, talking ghost or a talent contest in your show.

[VF5SS]

Mecha peaked during the 80's back when every two bit show could get a line of plastic models and toys off of IMAI, Bandai, or whatever company was willing to sponsor them. Everything cooled off after the bubble burst in Japan and went on the down low during the 90's. Nowadays mecha shows have changed to keep up with the times and the times are when a show like Bakemonogatari is the best selling anime on DVD and blu-ray.

[VFTF1]

Hm.

I never knew that Mecha had a peak... then again I don't follow anime nearly as closely as I should. I get too hung up on the ones I find I love. One day, I should just go and blindly watch anime after anime after anime independent of whether I like it or not so I actually know what's going on and can comment intelligently on the general industry and trends as a whole, rather than on specific shows....

That said - maybe what Itano was getting at is that it's no longer "enough" to have mecha that are well designed - nowadays you need a fashion designer making sexy lingerie for your anime girl designs - not to mention people who can think creatively about hair products.

In MSG, the characters were not really stylized - they were just in space suits - period. Meanwhile, the mecha were not that simple - the Mecha had vents, hydraulics etc etc.

Fast forward to - say - Macross Frontier - and not only do you need well thought out mecha designs - you need vibrant character designs too.

But why is this a bad thing?

It's like complaining that women take showers and look good.

I don't get it.

Oh - as for Bakemonogatari - I googled it and it sounds ok. Could be fun. Should check it out.

Pete

[Vifam7]

Interesting indeed. the best way to answer this is to know some data first:

-When is period considered to be the peak of mecha popularity in japan?

-Compared to that period, how is the mecha industry doing now?

-And when we say "mecha sells?, are we talking only about anime sales, or do we include merchandising?

I would like to think that it is still as popular now as it was during its peak, but i don't really have the figures to back it up either way.

The peak of "real robot" anime popularity was the 1980's. "Real robot" anime generally meant that the show featured realistic robots and/or realistic stories. It was a trend that Gundam started. By the late 1980's the boom was over.

The robot mecha anime is not as popular today as it was yesterday. The difference is that the demographics, market, and industry has changed since then. Back then, robot anime was mainly targetted at young boys. Nowadays they are targetted at hardcore otaku. This is why you see the moe and why so much of the merchandise is expensive (adult priced ). That said, there's been a slight revival of the genre driven in part by nostalgia. That's why we're seeing toys of some 70s/80s classics being made.

When they say "mecha sells", in the past it meant sales of model kits and toys. When toy companies sponsored the anime and kids bought the merchandise. These days it's perhaps more of a mix. Programs sponsored by Bandai and Takara are perhaps the only ones that get a heavy toy merchandising angle.

BTW, OAVs are wholly dependent on DVD/Blu-ray sales. OAVs are rarely if ever created in hopes of selling toys.

[VF5SS]

OVAs used to be tied to the Garage Kit market, but it seems like that has been largely supplanted by smaller GK makers getting Wonderfest licenses and toy companies like Yamato and CM's Corporation making complete figures and toys of what used to fill the GK market. Hasegawa has made the GK Macross market less relevant.

[Ghost Train]

The peak of "real robot" anime popularity was the 1980's. "Real robot" anime generally meant that the show featured realistic robots and/or realistic stories. It was a trend that Gundam started. By the late 1980's the boom was over.

The robot mecha anime is not as popular today as it was yesterday. The difference is that the demographics, market, and industry has changed since then. Back then, robot anime was mainly targetted at young boys. Nowadays they are targetted at hardcore otaku. This is why you see the moe and why so much of the merchandise is expensive (adult priced ). That said, there's been a slight revival of the genre driven in part by nostalgia. That's why we're seeing toys of some 70s/80s classics being made.

When they say "mecha sells", in the past it meant sales of model kits and toys. When toy companies sponsored the anime and kids bought the merchandise. These days it's perhaps more of a mix. Programs sponsored by Bandai and Takara are perhaps the only ones that get a heavy toy merchandising angle.

BTW, OAVs are wholly dependent on DVD/Blu-ray sales. OAVs are rarely if ever created in hopes of selling toys.

I dunno what is sadder, a demographic obsessed with giant robots, or one obsessed with moeblobs playing musical instruments.

[Freiflug88]

According to this blog:http://www.dannychoo.com/post/en/18523/Anime+Decline.html

Itai News has a report via Japan Probe about how the Anime industry is on the decline.

In the report a producer says that DVD's don't sell because users have become desensitized to the amount of bishojo and mecha titles which all look the same. With HD recordings at home becoming more popular and young folks with less expendable income, the only solution is to come up with quality titles.

Among the comments at Itai News regarding this topic are:-

-Lower the price!

-Our pockets don't go on forever.

-DVD's should have at least 4 episodes.

-Quality - not quantity.

-Instead of complaining, do something about it!

-Too much crap moe anime.

-7,000 yen for 2 episodes is out of the question

-Cant stand watching the continuous amount of crap series.

-Who wants to watch crap quality expensive DVD's?

-The late night anime are full of moe anime - boring!

-Instead of ero anime, make proper titles.

-Too much cheap crap anime.

As for the decline in mecha toys and kits, its probably for similar reasons as the DVDs. If the mecha franchises all look the same to fans then chances are a lot of fans are satisfied buying only their favorite mecha from their favorite series. With regards to franchises like Macross and Gundam, all the Mecha are very similiar across the shows so only diehard fans with lots of disopable income would actually consider buying lots of nearly identical mecha toys from each series.

I also think that the availability for fans to watch shows in any format at any time has really hurt mecha toy sales. When I was 8 I would usually miss Transformers whenever it was shown on TV, but through my transformers toys it didn't matter whenever the show aired because I could always play with toys at any time. Just look at 70s and 80s time period when mecha toy sales were said to be at their peak. Before the 90s then their was no Internet, Blu-ray, or DVDs for fans to watch shows when they weren't broadcast on TV. As for VCRs and the Betamax they were only popular with young adults in the 80s who had the disable income to buy the equipment and videotapes. The mecha fans of yesterday were usually limited to watching the show only while it aired on TV and/or buying mecha toys to play with the rest of the time. Today though their is hardly any incentive for mecha fans to actually go out and buy mecha toys to play with when they can watch their mecha shows at any time often from the convince of their own home.

EDIT:

BTW, OAVs are wholly dependent on DVD/Blu-ray sales. OAVs are rarely if ever created in hopes of selling toys.

It ties back in with only young adults having VCRs and Betamax players in the 80s. Young adults don't typically buy toys, but OAV makers were able to appeal to them by depicting mature content that they could never show on a broadcast show to kids. Just look at the sex scene in what many consider the first true OAV Megazone 23 and the birth of the Hentai video genre when VCRs became available in the 80s.

Edited October 21, 2009 by Freiflug88

[Duke Togo]

Itano: Macross Ace (the magazine this is in) is a damned bishoujo character magazine isn't it? I call it "yutori"*, though. Yutori character moe magazine. I think Macross (the original) was popular because of its balance, 1/3 each of cute girls, robots, and songs. But now they say mecha won't sell, robots won't sell, so they turn it into a character-based anime AND they want the fujoshi. I hate the stench of that sort of thing and so actually don't want to be in any magazine articles related to that bullshit, but I said I'd cooperate if they let me badmouth poo and here I am.

Itano: I DID watch all of Macross F. It's not fair to badmouth something without seeing it (chuckle).

So, like, there's one bit where a sniper in space mounts himself on an asteroid, right? But by doing so half his field of vision is gone. And asteroids aren't stationary so his aim is going to be really unstable. And then they use sniper rifles at point blank range? I notice this sort of stuff, you know.

It's well-drawn for a TV show and they were trying, but the relationships were half-assed and the heart of the drama is way too messy. Last time we had Minmei become a human failure, but this time it was the main character (laugh). People who like this rubbish have a totally different sense from me, so I'd really be happier if they didn't know who I was at all (laugh).

This guy knows WTF he is talking about. I endorse this message.

[Marzan]

According to this blog:http://www.dannychoo.com/post/en/18523/Anime+Decline.html

As for the decline in mecha toys and kits, its probably for similar reasons as the DVDs. If the mecha franchises all look the same to fans then chances are a lot of fans are satisfied buying only their favorite mecha from their favorite series. With regards to franchises like Macross and Gundam, all the Mecha are very similiar across the shows so only diehard fans with lots of disopable income would actually consider buying lots of nearly identical mecha toys from each series.

I also think that the availability for fans to watch shows in any format at any time has really hurt mecha toy sales. When I was 8 I would usually miss Transformers whenever it was shown on TV, but through my transformers toys it didn't matter whenever the show aired because I could always play with toys at any time. Just look at 70s and 80s time period when mecha toy sales were said to be at their peak. Before the 90s then their was no Internet, Blu-ray, or DVDs for fans to watch shows when they weren't broadcast on TV. As for VCRs and the Betamax they were only popular with young adults in the 80s who had the disable income to buy the equipment and videotapes. The mecha fans of yesterday were usually limited to watching the show only while it aired on TV and/or buying mecha toys to play with the rest of the time. Today though their is hardly any incentive for mecha fans to actually go out and buy mecha toys to play with when they can watch their mecha shows at any time often from the convince of their own home.

I don't think the problem is as much the genre's itself (mecha etc) but the fact that stories and characters get recycled over and over again. The industry really needs more original writing.

[Bri]

Interesting indeed. the best way to answer this is to know some data first:

1) When is period considered to be the peak of mecha popularity in japan?

2) Compared to that period, how is the mecha industry doing now?

3) And when we say "mecha sells?, are we talking only about anime sales, or do we include merchandising?

I would like to think that it is still as popular now as it was during its peak, but i don't really have the figures to back it up either way.

1) The 80s were definitly the peak period but that was during a time of daytime television broadcasts. Around the time of Evangelion the split between day time and night time anime slowly forced everything that wasn't animed at the family market out of the public eye to late night slots and cable TV. Anime as a medium became dependant on DVD and merchandise (collectors market) sales, advertising income and the childerens toy market disappeared. Post Eva, the number of mecha shows was limited but there were always some around. We can't really compare what happened before the mid nineties to the current situation as the market totally changed.

2) That's the weird part, if I check the sales charts on an annual basis Gundam and Macross do very well, especially on the Blu-ray format. But hardly any new mecha has been produced lately. This year I can name 7 titles: Sora Kake Girl, Vipers Creed, Ride Back, Basquash, Shin Mazinger, Asura Crying and Kiddy Girl, and half of these are more moe then mecha.

3)Hmm, mostly the well known titles like Eva, Gundam and Macross have good DVD, Blu-Ray sales and loads of new merchandise coming out reguarly but other titles not that much. I even wonder how the mecha modelkit/toys market in total compares to say the PVC figurine and posables market (thinking of Figma's, Nendroids, Revoltechs etc.)

Hard to make sense of this, the old titles do well, but new ones do poorly or get rarely made. Wonder if it's more expensive/risky to produce a mecha show? If so it could be risk aversion on the producers side.

Edited October 21, 2009 by Bri

[VFTF1]

I dunno what is sadder, a demographic obsessed with giant robots, or one obsessed with moeblobs playing musical instruments.

A world divided between these two factions, where a man was constantly being pulled in one direction or another would be a perfect world.

Pete

[Vifam7]

Hard to make sense of this, the old titles do well, but new ones do poorly or get rarely made. Wonder if it's more expensive/risky to produce a mecha show? If so it could be risk aversion on the producers side.

Old titles like Gundam and Macross do well because they have an established base of fans thanks to the fact that they were mega-hits back in the day. What's different these days I think is that the classic way of funding robot anime has dwindled. Back in the 80's the anime companies can count on toy companies to back them up (sponsorship). Today, unless the robot anime is backed by Bandai or Takara it won't get made. If you look at the majority of today's anime titles, most of them have a "media tie-in" (manga, novels, or video games). In other words, the anime isn't made unless it's based on a popular manga, novel, or video game. That's why I think a lot of anime these days are sponsored/promoted by media publishers like Kadokawa. And what manga, novels, and video games are popular? It certainly isn't robot stuff. It's all ecchi, romance, and/or comedy stuff.

[Bri]

...If you look at the majority of today's anime titles, most of them have a "media tie-in" (manga, novels, or video games). In other words, the anime isn't made unless it's based on a popular manga, novel, or video game. That's why I think a lot of anime these days are sponsored/promoted by media publishers like Kadokawa. And what manga, novels, and video games are popular? It certainly isn't robot stuff. It's all ecchi, romance, and/or comedy stuff.

Very interesting, so a change in the parties that finance anime results in a different type of anime being made.

It begs the question though why robot stuff isnt popular in the manga, novels or videogames. The readers, gamers of today grew up on different shows or toys? Or more fundamental, kids of the nineties have different interests or preferances then those a decade earlier?

[Ghost Train]

A world divided between these two factions, where a man was constantly being pulled in one direction or another would be a perfect world.

Pete

UNTIL ONE MAN UNITED BOTH WORLDS...

/dramatic music on

TRANSFORMERS III

Directed by Uwen Bowl

/fade2black

SUMMER 2011.

[aerocombatpilot]

This guy knows WTF he is talking about. I endorse this message.

Me Too! I don't think he's being mean, he's just saying what he thinks (and what some of us (ME) feel about Macross F.

It may not be popular, but I don't think it's mean for him to say, especially when they told him it was OK to say it.

[Killer Robot]

I can agree, finances really are a big part of why the bottom fell out of the anime market over the last ten years or so. DVDs in Japan have really strict price controls, other merchandise isn't exactly cheap either - it ends up being a medium that's supported by the fans hardcore enough to pump all their disposable income into it and the rest just don't bother. I believe there were also some changes to television censorship in the late 1990s which drove anime which wasn't fairly sanitized and kid-friendly into late night time slots, where of course it gets no ratings and has to pay for itself through merchandising...which of course all sells to the hardcore fans.

So the whole things ends up becoming a vicious circle. Expensive discs of shows marketed to a niche audience only get bought by a niche audience, which causes producers to market even harder to their core audience, etc. I suspect if they cut all their media prices in half there they'd see an explosion in popularity and profitability over the next few years, especially on titles that aren't fetishistic, but convincing companies that they can make more money by cutting margins and moving away from their core audience is a hard thing.

[Ginrai]

what many consider the first true OAV Megazone 23 and the birth of the Hentai video genre when VCRs became available in the 80s.

Uhm, the first OAV is Dallos. There's no argument about it. Then there was lots of porn. Then there was Megazone.