Ichiro Itano is a mean man.

[Master Dex]

Arguing about physics in Macross (any scifi/anime is silly).... sound /cough in /cough space.

Thank you, I'm glad someone gets it.

I am actually not against debating physics of stuff from TV shows, but if it isn't even going to be discussed correctly (no offense to anyone) then there is no point. It is best to remember in the long term stuff is done to look cool, discussing physics is not to explain things but to try and reconcile how it might work if such a thing could be real (more for the purpose of amusement in my case rather than me actually thinking it could be done).

[Gubaba]

Gunbuster was only released as a 6 episode OVA for many years. It wasn't until 2006 that a theatrical verison of Gunbuster was even released (It had new audio, but the original animated footage.) As for the "science lessons" they were actually made as bonus features for the Gunbuster laserdiscs and dvd boxsets so you won't find them anywhere on the original VHS tape releases.

Here is the Gunbuster science lesson on time dilation though:

Yes, thank you, I'm quite familiar with Gunbuster.

I'm not sure time dilation occurs the same way in Macross, however.

Yeah, I am pretty sure #639 means Milia is the 639th clone on the Milia Meltrandi cloning line. I know #639 sure is hell isn't Milia ranking among the fleet.

"Pretty sure," eh?

So you made a guess about what "639" means, and then stated it as though it were a fact?

[Save]

Itano: I DID watch all of Macross F. It's not fair to badmouth something without seeing it (chuckle)

In no way does the interview make him mean, at least he is being honest about how he feels about the current state of the anime industry. If anything people should respect his personal view I'm sure his comrades in the industry do. At least he watched Frontier in its entirety before trashing it, which is more than I can say for a good percentage of Macross fans.

Edited October 19, 2009 by Save

[Killer Robot]

No, in all the books, it actually, flatly states that she's 15. Kamujin is 23, Britai is 34, and everyone else is "unknown."

Granted, even there it gets a little weird, since presumably they all were cloned into full size rather more quickly than that indicates: Milia wouldn't have had much time to become a celebrated ace famous well beyond her fleet if she had spent most of those years growing in a tube. Lives of non-cultured Zentradi are so different than those of humans that really saying much about age is complicated.

[Freiflug88]

Yes, thank you, I'm quite familiar with Gunbuster.

I'm not sure time dilation occurs the same way in Macross, however.

Time dilation does happen in a similar fashion in SDF Macross and DYRL. In SDF, Misa speciffically states that time passes about ten times slower outside of fold space when they were captured by the Zentradi. It was this Time dilation effect that gave humanity ten years to rebuild the Macross while Britai's fleet was still pursing the shot down Macross through Fold Space. As for DYRL, the Macross was said to be three months away from arriving on Earth according to Hikaru shortly before he and Minmay kissed. However Hikaru and Misa were only on Earth for about a week though before the Macross arrived.

"Pretty sure," eh?

So you made a guess about what "639" means, and then stated it as though it were a fact?

No, I have figured that #639 was Milia's clone number ever since I first saw Macross DYRL almost two years ago. In DYRL they were clear that all Zentradi and Meltrandi were the results of Protoculture Cloning technology and Exedol speciffically stated that there were thousands of Lapramiz and Bodolza fleets roaming the Galaxy. It seemed obvious to me that if their are supposed to be a thousand Lapramizs and Bodolzas rulers across the galaxy, then it made sense that every Zentradi/Meltrandi down to the foot soldiers are Clones of some original Zentradi soldier that the Protoculture created eons ago.

[Gubaba]

Time dilation does happen in a similar fashion in SDF Macross and DYRL. In SDF, Misa speciffically states that time passes about ten times slower outside of fold space when they were captured by the Zentradi.

No, she didn't; She DID say that ten days or so had passed since they'd been in the fold for an hour. In Frontier, though, I believe this was explained through the idea of "fold faults," which is a different phenomenon.

It was this Time dilation effect that gave humanity ten years to rebuild the Macross while Britai's fleet was still pursing the shot down Macross through Fold Space.

Source, please?

As for DYRL, the Macross was said to be three months away from arriving on Earth according to Hikaru shortly before he and Minmay kissed. However Hikaru and Misa were only on Earth for about a week though before the Macross arrived.

A week? I thought it was more like a month...Again, source please?

No, I have figured that #639 was Milia's clone number ever since I first saw Macross DYRL almost two years ago. In DYRL they were clear that all Zentradi and Meltrandi were the results of Protoculture Cloning technology and Exedol speciffically stated that there were thousands of Lapramiz and Bodolza fleets roaming the Galaxy. It seemed obvious to me that if their are supposed to be a thousand Lapramizs and Bodolzas rulers across the galaxy, then it made sense that every Zentradi/Meltrandi down to the foot soldiers are Clones of some original Zentradi soldier that the Protoculture created eons ago.

I'm not saying that your guess is wrong, I'm just saying it's a guess. To say "Milia is the 639th Milia" is very different from "I think that Milia is 639th Milia."

But my original point is that she's ONLY "Milia 639" in the movie. And she's ONLY listed as 15 years old in the TV show. Trying to conflate the two isn't necessarily wrong, but it's not a "safe" assumption, either.

[sketchley]

Source, please?

Backing up your arguement, not his: http://www.macrossroleplay.org/forums/inde...g35077#msg35077

02 The difference of the subjectivity [one's opinion] and objectivity of time is only a little

and

Super Fold Booster

Experimental Super Fold Booster that is able to penetrate fold dislocations [faults] by using fold quartz. (With it) there is no difference in the subjectivity and objectivity of time (spent in fold),

[VFTF1]

In no way does the interview make him mean, at least he is being honest about how he feels about the current state of the anime industry. If anything people should respect his personal view I'm sure his comrades in the industry do. At least he watched Frontier in its entirety before trashing it, which is more than I can say for a good percentage of Macross fans.

Well you know - it's all a matter of the underlying emotions or approach someone has. And of course this dude has the right to his emotions just like his feelings but - he's just a bit more negative whereas some of us are gushing positive.

Take the whole "physics in MF/asteroid" thing - like I noted in my earlier post - this is a legitamite point of contention - but to me, every anime is open to people pointing out the flaws in its' scientific logic - this doesn't necessarily make the anime bad. This Itano dude takes ONE small example of what he considers bad physics (and from the discussion here it turns out that the example isn't all that clear cut) and uses it to illustrate his passionate dislike of MF.

I guess it's going too far to say he's being "mean."

When I read the translation of the interview it sounds more like he's having a bad day or PMSing (the male equivalent at least)...

In any case - I just didn't find his reasons matching his compelling emotions.

But I guess the same could be said for someone like me who totally love-gushes MF and coats all the "simple" logic with ranka-loving-emotions...

Which is to say - I don't begrudge this guy his critical opinions - what bothers me more are his emotions

It's like - I don't mind people who write long winded reasons for why something in MF sucks - it's interesting to think about.

But when someone is negative about MF, I get sad

I think Itano needs to have May'N and Megumi pay him a suprise visit with flowers and song.

Maybe that will change his view?

Pete

[Mercurial Morpheus]

Don't think Itano's criticism is aimed much at Macross but more on the direction of the industry. The popularity of stereotype romantic comedy characters and the pressure on producers to us them at the expense of all else in new shows is probably what pisses him off. He is not alone in that dislike, Miyazaki isn't particularly happy about the way charactes are depicted either

That's pretty much how it reads to me. A lot of members of the industry seem to feel that way, but they make it because they feel it's popular. I remember a Gainax panel where Yamaga stated that they started out by making stuff they as fans would want to watch. Now, trends and tastes have changed so much that they feel they have to make things they wouldn't particularly watch themselves. It's funny that way. I own one issue of Ace, and can see why he'd have a problem with it. Outside of The First, there's not much to it. I can see him feeling it nothing more than a bishoujo mag.

Reading the article again I doubt the issue is sex but more the kind of sex.

Itano specifically mentioned his dislike for retarded/moe and bishji characters and fujoshi in general. I would interpret that he is angry about the "feminisation"of MF and considers it unmanly/gay. Given his previous works as mentioned by other posters I doubt he has any problems with fanservice or explicit content.

hmmmm.... I'd read it more as a dislike for having to make it appeal to everyone. He says "they want the fujoshi" and "mecha doesn't sell". That might refer more to putting it elements simply for the purpose of bringing in female fans rather than improving the show. I don't think it's about him not wanting female fans. A general hatred at the view that mecha anime (traditionally more appealing to men) must appeal to all audiences. I guess that can be viewed that way, but I think he just feels that mecha is less about the mecha and story, and more about creating characters that people go "sqeeeee" over. To be fair, most that argue that forget that animation has always had a marketing angle to it. Though that doesn't mean one can't complain about it (such as Tomino wanting the RX-78 to be all white, but the company wanting bright colors that sell better).

I also disagree with having to watch all of something in order to criticize it. I knew I didn't like Hellsing TV, Higurashi, and K-on, after a few episodes. A lot of people seem to get on one's case if you badmouth a show you've only watched some of. I can see if that some is only one episode, and you really fuss over it,but who sticks to a series they're not enjoying just so they can justify saying, "no sir, I don't like it"? Sure, it builds up credibility, but why insist someone torture themselves just so you can give their opinion credit? An opinion is formed rather quickly, usually. I've been known to like characters just on their designs back in the day.

As for the sniper bit, I think he was just pulling up a quick example to back up his complaints. An example of a sniper doing something he sees as detrimental to getting the job done. It is a bit of an odd complaint, admittedly. He should know that it's common to bend reasonableness for the sake of looking cool, just like the Minmay fall. Your mind says "yeah right" at the same time it says, "that was awesome" with the hope that the latter wins out. A VF taking aim on an asteroid looks cool, the sole reason it's there. It's like when someone does something stupid to advance the plot. It's a lame crutch of bad writing, but at times it's a necessary evil. It's just part of the medium.

All in all, I think it's rather awesome that he doesn't mind being written up in print like that. It does make him look a touch like a jerk, but he obviously doesn't care given his line about not wanting to associate with fans of this ilk. Besides, like someone pointed out, it gets people talking. I do sort of agree with his statements on Frontier. The relationships, while good on a character level did fail to me on a romantic one, and the drama did get a touch muddled. It can also be fairly obvious to note how much moreso Frontier focuses on it's girls than it's plot in terms of fandom marketing when in comparison to older anime, a common trend, which is probably to do with his 1/3 comparison.

Edited October 19, 2009 by Mercurial Morpheus

[VFTF1]

It can also be fairly obvious to note how much moreso Frontier focuses on it's girls than it's plot in terms of fandom marketing when in comparison to older anime, a common trend, which is probably to do with his 1/3 comparison.

Hm.

Really?

See - to me, this is another example of where Itano is flat wrong insofar as Macross Frontier goes. I mean - have we already forgotten the extent to which Macross Frontier makes fun of the anime industry's obsession with moe, ecchi, and the general sexualization of girls and focus on boobs? I mean, episode 4 is one of the prime examples of this, but I think there's enough humor in the series - erotic humor - where this stuff is clearly done in a playful manner, and not "vulgarly."

I just don't see what Itano is talking about, if you will... I take the opposite radical position. I see his statements as blanket condemnations of things that maybe are happening in the anime industry in general, but certainly aren't happening in Macross Frontier in particular.

I mean... I would like an example of where Macross Frontier goes overboard in terms of sexualizing girls? What? Klan Klan? She's a grown woman with a genetic defect that makes her look moe. I think that' a hilarious joke. It's an obvious fanwank dream that "gets around" the whole "pedophile/child molestor/age of consent" moral conundrum by introducing a scientific hypothesis - namely "what if the girly only LOOKS moe, but actually isn't?"

To me - that's funny. That's also intelligent and whitty. It's not just throwing a young girl out there for guys to oogle at. Particularly since there's some serious history behind Klan and Micheal's friendship - and in fact for all intents and purposes they share NO sexual or erotic relationship at all, but instead a very deep love that turns into a heroic, tragic love.

Shallow? Vapid? Empty? Moe? No. Is the concept of Moe in there somewhere? Yes. But it's treated intelligently and does not deserve to be lumped into whatever bad examples Itano is thinking about.

Next - Ranka Lee.

Well, Mr. Itano - you can't have it both ways.

If Ranka were not moe, but instead looked like a lucious sexy mature babe - you would be bashing MF for catering to the uber-sexualization of women. But, since the main heroine (Ranka) is skinny, has small breasts, short fruffy hair and is generally still a little girl - suddenly that's bad too becuase...it's moe.

You could be cynical and say MF covers both bases by having Moe Ranka and the sumptuous bib t&a delight that is Sheryl... But Sheryl is SELF-CONSCIOUSLY using her sexuality as part of her ACT.

Over and Over and Over Sheryl states that her boobs help sell her music, and that it's all part of her performance because that's what people expect.

And guess when Sheryl's career really takes off? Guess when her music gains a new and subtle and more serious dimension - guess when people take the MOST note of her performances?

It's in the bunker and later in the smoky back ally night clubs where she sings after she stops being such a popular super idol.

EDIT: That is to say - her best performances that move the hearts of people really deeply are not sexualized in some kinky sense - but are mature and serious performances sung by a beautiful woman with flashing lights and boobs and BDSM get ups.

Hm.... lack of plot?

No - in fact, what MF shows us is that this woman who self-consciously marketed her boobs realizes that her music and her songs are powerful enough to move human hearts without her necessarily having to wiggle her ass. Meanwhile, even when she's marketing herself - since she does so explicitly - she is at the same time COMMENTING on the state of the market - on what people demand.

And - maybe if Itano were capable of critical thinking and reflection - he'd understand the concept of introspection and irony - because it is ironic to have a big boobed "stereotypical" anime sex idol symbolically making it know that she would not necessarily be dressing like that or wiggling her butt like that if not for the fact that that's what people demand.

In this sense, Macross Frontier ADDRESSES the issues that Itano is complaining about - or is at least conscious of them. So Itano, in attacking Macross Frontier, seems to be attacking a show that agrees with him.

As for Ranka being "moe" and lacking a good plot and character development - I seriously don't see how anybody could make that argument. On what basis? The whole series from a to z is one big character arc for Ranka who is totally the main character of the show and not just some random moe girl for boys to oogle at and fantasize over.

So on this count - I don't know what Itano is talking about.

Pete

Fanatical MF fan

Edited October 19, 2009 by VFTF1

[Bri]

hmmmm.... I'd read it more as a dislike for having to make it appeal to everyone. He says "they want the fujoshi" and "mecha doesn't sell". That might refer more to putting it elements simply for the purpose of bringing in female fans rather than improving the show. I don't think it's about him not wanting female fans. A general hatred at the view that mecha anime (traditionally more appealing to men) must appeal to all audiences. I guess that can be viewed that way, but I think he just feels that mecha is less about the mecha and story, and more about creating characters that people go "sqeeeee" over. To be fair, most that argue that forget that animation has always had a marketing angle to it. Though that doesn't mean one can't complain about it (such as Tomino wanting the RX-78 to be all white, but the company wanting bright colors that sell better).

Not sure if catering to the moe and fujoshi crowds makes a series appeal to a wider audience or more towards women. I would associate moe and fujoshi fans with the hardcore male and female otakus rather then mainstream anime fans. Iirc Gundam Zeta in particular had a large female fan following while still being a classic mecha show, but I do think you are complely right on his irritation towards cute characters taking away the spot light from the mecha. Still it's hard to tell what exactly Itano's point is as he doesn't really elaborate on it. Nor do I know if his statements remain completely intact after translation.

I find myself agreeing with his critique on Alto, he is far more dense and self absorbed then Minmay. The character also fails to generate any sympathy with me as he isn't really involved with the love triangle or the plot. I get the impression that the girls only like him based on his looks. Even his VA can't save the character; Yuuichi Nakamura showed with his previous role of Tomoya in Clannad that he can act the part of a likeable outcast extremely well.

Can't help but respect Itano for speaking his mind. I'll take honesty over acting nice anytime. However I don't agree with everything he says, particularly about character driven mecha shows. Well established characters are essential for a good show, just take a look at the more recent AU Gundams to see that disposable characters and good looking mecha don't make great anime.

[Gubaba]

Not sure if catering to the moe and fujoshi crowds makes a series appeal to a wider audience or more towards women. I would associate moe and fujoshi fans with the hardcore male and female otakus rather then mainstream anime fans. Iirc Gundam Zeta in particular had a large female fan following while still being a classic mecha show, but I do think you are complely right on his irritation towards cute characters taking away the spot light from the mecha. Still it's hard to tell what exactly Itano's point is as he doesn't really elaborate on it. Nor do I know if his statements remain completely intact after translation.

The translation seems a little more...colorful than I would have done, but generally it seems accurate enough (still unsure about the "human failure" bit, though... ). I haven't gone through and tried to read the whole thing, but the entire interview is about two pages long. This is the beginning of it.

Oh, and Sketchley: thanks!

[VF5SS]

lol Zeta Gundam has a large female following precisely because Camille is so moe. He's a cute, whiny teenage boy with a hunky older brother figure. Just look at the way he whines about being a man with a man's name. He even makes paper airplanes like Alto.

[Roy Focker]

I own one issue of Ace, and can see why he'd have a problem with it. Outside of The First, there's not much to it. I can see him feeling it nothing more than a bishoujo mag.

Funny isn't it? Almost like looking at night and day. Tends (but not all the time) to be that way with the animated episodes as well. Not to say Macross TV didn't have it's moe, girlie, fan service, etc moments but if you put them on a chart from 1-10. They would be a 2-3 and Macross Frontier would Rank 9-10. Macross Frontier is kinda like Macross 7. Somewhere in there is story. You just got suffer through it and ignore either Basara or that fetish fan service.

I find myself agreeing with his critique on Alto, he is far more dense and self absorbed then Minmay. The character also fails to generate any sympathy with me as he isn't really involved with the love triangle or the plot. I get the impression that the girls only like him based on his looks. Even his VA can't save the character; Yuuichi Nakamura showed with his previous role of Tomoya in Clannad that he can act the part of a likeable outcast extremely well.

I didn't get Alpo's appeal either. Seems total self absorb. He's got two girls (and Michael in fan manga) interested in him but he barely notices it. If he didn't want them he could be a friend and pass them on to Luca. In the end he saves the day but says "Screw everyone I'm gonna fly under a real sky!" He bitches about how everyone think he's a girl but that doesn't stop him wearing his hair long with a ribbon in it like a girl. What do real pretty boys do when they want to look more manly? They cut their hair short and grow a sad looking mustache. If Alpo did that he wouldn't look pretty anymore. Which I guess was the only thing going for him.

[VFTF1]

What do real pretty boys do when they want to look more manly? They cut their hair short and grow a sad looking mustache. If Alpo did that he wouldn't look pretty anymore.

Yeah - he wouldn't look pretty. Instead, he'd look totally gay.

Personally, I prefer Alto looking more like a woman than like a gay guy.

And people say MF is shallow and doesn't lead to interesting conversations!

Pete

[Mercurial Morpheus]

Hm.

Really?

Yes, insofar as to what I was referring to, the marketing material. The way the trailers are done. The merchandise I've seen. The promo artwork. A lot of it is Sheryl and Ranka. Not that I'm saying playing up characters is bad, or that SDF Macross didn't do it (plenty of Minmay art abounds), far from it. But if I didn't know what MF was about, the material would suggest to me green and blond haired girls.

See - to me, this is another example of where Itano is flat wrong insofar as Macross Frontier goes. I mean - have we already forgotten the extent to which Macross Frontier makes fun of the anime industry's obsession with moe, ecchi, and the general sexualization of girls and focus on boobs? I mean, episode 4 is one of the prime examples of this, but I think there's enough humor in the series - erotic humor - where this stuff is clearly done in a playful manner, and not "vulgarly."

Yes we have, as I don't really remember Frontier doing any of that. I do remember Sheryl chasing her panties and other basic stuff.

"Over and Over and Over Sheryl states that her boobs help sell her music, and that it's all part of her performance because that's what people expect."

Over and over? I recall one throwaway joke while teasing Alto. Nice that you've worked it in as a huge part of her character (but don't all fans). She's aware of it, but that's about it.

I also think you're putting words in his mouth and jumping to conclusions. He makes brief statements about Frontier and how he views Macross Ace as little more than a fan pandering rag, and you rebut him making comments against sexualization of characters that he doesn't even talk about. He never mentions thinking Ranka too moe, Sheryl too sexy, and what not. All he does is call Ace a bishoujo mag and feels the triangle and plot of it a bit messy. Fair enough. Ease off a bit, please. You indeed don't know what he's talking about, as these are a few random thoughts that you are applying to very specific ways. It not even what I was talking about in what you quoted from me.

Besides, Klan's not a lolicon moe, she's a Tsundere.

"Not sure if catering to the moe and fujoshi crowds makes a series appeal to a wider audience or more towards women. I would associate moe and fujoshi fans with the hardcore male and female otakus rather then mainstream anime fans. Iirc Gundam Zeta in particular had a large female fan following while still being a classic mecha show,"

I get the impression that they're viewed as a big piece of the pie. The hardcore fans are the ones you can sell stuff to. Like I said, I think he merely sees it as pandering to fans that he feels shouldn't be the focus in the first place. Z Gundam being the ideal, something that appeals to those fans without necessarily being marketed towards them.

I definitely agree on character importance. It's probably why I'm so iffy on Frontier, as I'm iffy on the characters. Despite what Itano says, I always felt Frontier was more a story driven show, not a character one.

I definitely would love to read the rest of the interview, if only to take as a lark. Thanks to the translator.

[Mercurial Morpheus]

lol Zeta Gundam has a large female following precisely because Camille is so moe. He's a cute, whiny teenage boy with a hunky older brother figure. Just look at the way he whines about being a man with a man's name. He even makes paper airplanes like Alto.

Amusingly, Alto actually reminded me of Kamille early on.

Might I add, I actually have little problem with fan service, moe, and what not. I even generally love Tsunderes. As long as it's not the overall focus of the show (hence why I can't watch stuff like "a show for all fetishes" like Negima).

[VFTF1]

I also think you're putting words in his mouth and jumping to conclusions.

This is apparently this is my specialty

Yes, insofar as to what I was referring to, the marketing material. The way the trailers are done. The merchandise I've seen. The promo artwork. A lot of it is Sheryl and Ranka. Not that I'm saying playing up characters is bad, or that SDF Macross didn't do it (plenty of Minmay art abounds), far from it. But if I didn't know what MF was about, the material would suggest to me green and blond haired girls.

See- and I thought this was really subtle actually.

Because I think it's great that the focus isn't on the mecha, but on the main characters - mainly the girls. Besides, the poster isn't just a thoughtless ass shot with lingerie. Those gears and the tentacles are there to suggest that Sheryl is a pawn, is being used and manipulated. And in fact, here lingerie is part of that manipulation.

The poster caters to our baser instincts while criticizing them at the same time.

On that note...

What's wrong with sexy girls being the focus instead of mecha? I almost fell asleep to episode 7. Over-using mecha can destroy their awesomeness and make them mundane. Girls never get overused no matter how many times you use them. Plus - you can always change their hair, put some new outfit on them... Mecha - you can't really do much. I mean, you can customize I guess...but.. hmm...

I dunno - I guess I just got surprised by the guys' passionate negativity. If he just made his points in a normal calm way I would have been like - yeah ok - there's some of that - true... But it just came across as pretty over-bearing, thus my equally over-bearing reaction

But I will freely admit that I LOVE over-sexualization in anime and think there's still not enough of it to go around.

Whenever I make a point to show that, say, Macross Frontier doesn't over-sexualize the girls... I don't mean that as a compliment. I see that as a missed opportunity.

Pete

[Mercurial Morpheus]

Yes, and there's a million other ways they could suggest Sheryl being a puppet on a poster that doesn't involve putting her in leather in a style trying too hard to look like Masamune Shirow. I wasn't referring to any particular poster either, but that one is rather ubiquitous. A lot of Sheryl art is so meh. I still can't believe they made that "Rise Up" figure.

"What's wrong with sexy girls being the focus instead of mecha? I almost fell asleep to episode 7. Over-using mecha can destroy their awesomeness and make them mundane. Girls never get overused no matter how many times you use them. Plus - you can always change their hair, put some new outfit on them... Mecha - you can't really do much. I mean, you can customize I guess...but.. hmm..."

Nothing, if that's the point of the show. But if you just want to watch something about cute girls, that's what stuff like K-on!'s for. If I'm watching a dramatic mecha show, I sort of expect the mecha to have a good focus on it in the ads, posters, art, and show itself. Of course it can be too much, but you can't really over use mecha in the plot of a mecha show thnough I'm all for the blending of genres. You overdo it can cute girls like anything else. Just look at Negima and tell me that's not way too many characters. I get what you're saying, and I love anime babes as much as the next guy, but this isn't "Sheryl Frontier" we're talking about. You want Sheryl and Ranka as bigger sex-objects? There's plentyof doujin and an entire porno for that.

[VFTF1]

I still can't believe they made that "Rise Up" figure.

Well - now we have a tangible reason for the differences in our opinions I LOVE the Rise Up figure. I thought the first 1/8 Sheryl, in the blue uniform which you could take off was way way too tame and boring. The Rise Up figure is Sheryl done right

You want Sheryl and Ranka as bigger sex-objects?

I would love more episodes like episode 8 or stories like what Gubaba translated for us from My Fair Minmay. I don't want to transform Macross into a porno because pornos usually have little to no plot, bad acting and stiff characters.

A better analogy would be that I'd like Macross to be a cosmic soap opera with mecha, aliens, and music

I guess ultimately I thought MF did a very very good job of meeting my basic expectations, which is why I just don't agree with Itano's sentiments here

Pete

[Mercurial Morpheus]

Well - now we have a tangible reason for the differences in our opinions I LOVE the Rise Up figure. I thought the first 1/8 Sheryl, in the blue uniform which you could take off was way way too tame and boring. The Rise Up figure is Sheryl done right

It's a well done figure I'll admit (the face is a touch odd, though most Sheryl art is), but a horrible piece of artwork, and a near insult whenever someone dubs it noseart. It's a perfect example of just how messed up some things can get and just how far some manufacturers will go. It's almost funny in an amusing way. depending on how you take it. Still, that's stuff should be reserved for doujin art. It's Sheryl done right if you only see her as a sex object (and lets not get into the finer pros and cons of such a thing please). I love sexy figures, but I prefer them to be a touch more subtle and tasteful. So if i ever got it, I'd probably remove the bullet. The Don't Be Late figure is a touch boring in pose, and the cast off is rather ridiculous, but I like it a lot better in person.

Edited October 19, 2009 by Mercurial Morpheus

[Killer Robot]

It's a well done figure I'll admit (the face is a touch odd, though most Sheryl art is), but a horrible piece of artwork, and a near insult whenever someone dubs it noseart. It's a perfect example of just how messed up some things can get and just how far some manufacturers will go. It's almost funny in an amusing way. depending on how you take it. Still, that's stuff should be reserved for doujin art. It's Sheryl done right if you only see her as a sex object (and lets not get into the finer pros and cons of such a thing please). I love sexy figures, but I prefer them to be a touch more subtle and tasteful. So if i ever got it, I'd probably remove the bullet. The Don't Be Late figure is a touch boring in pose, and the cast off is rather ridiculous, but I like it a lot better in person.

Have you seen all that much nose art? A lot of it looked like it was painted by a third grader and a lot of the rest was directly copied from pinup calendars or cartoon characters or the like. Or if you mean suggestive content, I did a quick search but I'm pretty sure most of the striking examples were things I shouldn't post here due to yet more explicit nudity and sexual reference so I'll stick with this one. If this sort of stuff got by in the 1940s, it's a little silly to be too prudish about it today.

As for whether the original 2D art really needed made into a figure, I don't know: a bit excessive, yes. On the other hand, I won't call some sexy Sheryl figurines more money-grubbing excess and shameless fan exploitation than yet another remolded and/or recolored VF-1.

As for Sheryl's place as a sex object, yes, it's definitely a factor. And a significant part of her story as well. The occasional offhand comparison of her stage manner to that of a stripper is pretty apt: sexual and exhibitionistic, yet aloof and untouchable, doing things that on the one hand might feel embarrassing and objectifying, on the other hand are presented as ostensibly proud and on her own terms, and yet behind both of those are her being manipulated and marketed by management to sell: just tickets, albums, and world domination rather than drinks and house fees.

It goes beyond that too. Sheryl is really the first of the Macross idol singers who is presented to the audience in full flower of popularity, established and known throughout the galaxy, with marketing machine in full effect. We saw some with Sharon Apple in Plus, but that was colored strongly by her presentation as "the first virtual idol." I'm rather impressed by the range official art done of her: some sexualized like that, some very much clean, but all very much glamorized and marketed in style, and easy to see as in-setting promotional work in the way that the nude shots of Mylene in the ending credits weren't so much.

Even with the sexualized parts, it's important to Sheryl's character how much of this is a facade, or at least a contrast between her public and private self: from her first episode improvisation where she shows she's a quick-thinking performer rather than a vapid idol, to where she gets embarrassed being seen half naked not on her own terms but as just a teenage girl face to face with someone (yes, "girl slaps guy for being seen naked through no fault of his own" is a tired fanservice cliche but one that long predates the modern moe era), to discussing her body as a selling point even while showing her more ordinary side. It also isn't out of place with presentation of sexuality in modern media - not that these things were absent in 1982, but they were presented differently, and placed in a show by and large aimed at a younger audience than Frontier. In any case, Sheryl's sexual side might get more screentime than Minmay's zero-g shower scene, but it's got more relevance to her actual story, and it's far enough from the common "constant meaningless stream of breasts, panties, and innuendo" in actual fanservice anime as to really not belong in the same category. Is it fanservice? Yes. Is it out of context, unbelievable fanservice? I hardly think so.

Really, I sympathize with the idea that anime has become increasingly catered to its hardcore audience and thus focusing on their unhealthier, shallower, and more self-referential tastes at the cost of becoming less accessible to the more mainstream fan. It clearly has done so, enough to make me stop watching anime very often. It made me reluctant to watch Frontier, given some of the earlier presentation of the show. Then I watched it, and it won me over gradually. Sure, the disease in the industry as a whole is there, but is Frontier really a notable symptom? Sorry, Itano, I can't hear you over the sound of awesome mecha action and coherent character development.

[VFTF1]

Generally agree with Killer Robot (have I mentioned how much I love the fact that you're called "Killer Robot" ? ) ...

Just one question - not even issue - but general question to see what everybody thinks.

I sympathize with the idea that anime has become increasingly catered to its hardcore audience and thus focusing on their unhealthier, shallower, and more self-referential tastes at the cost of becoming less accessible to the more mainstream fan.

Is the "mainstream fan" any more healthy, less shallow and more tasteful?

I would say that the fact that anime is becoming more niche is a good thing - because it can also become more alternative, underground, rebellious and generally not be constrained by the chains of mass market success.

Given what happens to franchises when they go "mainstream" (cough! Transformers! cough!) - I'll take niche anime any day.

Besides - it's provocative (sometimes) and they seem to keep "racing to the bottom" in terms of thinking up more and more zany stuff. I actually haven't seen all that much anime - but what I have watched I really REALLY like and I like it, amongst other reasons, for being so unconventional.

Pete

[Freiflug88]

No, she didn't; She DID say that ten days or so had passed since they'd been in the fold for an hour. In Frontier, though, I believe this was explained through the idea of "fold faults," which is a different phenomenon.

Source, please?

A week? I thought it was more like a month...Again, source please?

Having ten days pass while being in the fold for only an hour is time dilation. It doesn't matter if its the result of Frontier's Fold faults or Einstein's theory of relativity, time is still passing much slower on the inside of the fold then on the outside according to Misa's own statements in SDF Macoss.

As you said, Misa explains an single hour in the fold is 10 days in normal space. That means that every hour in the fold a 240 hours have passed on the outside of the fold. After doing some simple math you will see that the ten years humanity had to repair the Macross equals 87600 hours. Divide that by 240 and you end up with 365 hours or a little over 15 days. It makes much more sense for the Zentradi to purse the Macross for what was only 15 days for them, I doubt they would have the patience or supplies to survive a 10 year straight fold jump.

As for checking sources, I unfortantly can't view ANY Macross at the moment. The other day all my anime, music, etc was wiped clean off my external 1TB hard drive

I'm not saying that your guess is wrong, I'm just saying it's a guess. To say "Milia is the 639th Milia" is very different from "I think that Milia is 639th Milia."

But my original point is that she's ONLY "Milia 639" in the movie. And she's ONLY listed as 15 years old in the TV show. Trying to conflate the two isn't necessarily wrong, but it's not a "safe" assumption, either.

I see your point, Gubba. Honestly its a habit of mine to state assumptions as facts and go with them until some absolutely proves me wrong, I must have inherited it from my father who was a lawyer.

But I will freely admit that I LOVE over-sexualization in anime and think there's still not enough of it to go around.

Whenever I make a point to show that, say, Macross Frontier doesn't over-sexualize the girls... I don't mean that as a compliment. I see that as a missed opportunity.

Pete

I would love more episodes like episode 8 or stories like what Gubaba translated for us from My Fair Minmay. I don't want to transform Macross into a porno because pornos usually have little to no plot, bad acting and stiff characters.

Pete

See, I like over-sexualization in hentai anime because in those I don't care dam about fanservice moments eating into the plot's sceen time. For regular series fanservice moments are too overdone for me and most are a waste of time. I feel like if the creators really want to do fan service with their sexy charater designes they should either add more episodes to make up time spent through fan service or create side story OVAs /movies like Macross 7 did.

[lanis]

No, in all the books, it actually, flatly states that she's 15. Kamujin is 23, Britai is 34, and everyone else is "unknown."

I was always confused about this. Books say she is 15 but in the series, Millia herself states that she is was the veteran of THOUSANDS of battles and never lost.

[Master Dex]

I was always confused about this. Books say she is 15 but in the series, Millia herself states that she is was the veteran of THOUSANDS of battles and never lost.

You can be in thousands of battles without being really old. It isn't like they only had one battle per year. There were probably battled everyday. These are the Zentradi we are talking about here.

[Bri]

Just one question - not even issue - but general question to see what everybody thinks.

Is the "mainstream fan" any more healthy, less shallow and more tasteful?

I would say that the fact that anime is becoming more niche is a good thing - because it can also become more alternative, underground, rebellious and generally not be constrained by the chains of mass market success.

Given what happens to franchises when they go "mainstream" (cough! Transformers! cough!) - I'll take niche anime any day.

Besides - it's provocative (sometimes) and they seem to keep "racing to the bottom" in terms of thinking up more and more zany stuff. I actually haven't seen all that much anime - but what I have watched I really REALLY like and I like it, amongst other reasons, for being so unconventional.

Anime will never be mainstream, it's to much part of geek culture. The issue at the moment is that a lot of producers take the same safe formula time and time again to sell to a more hardcore part of the audience. This safe bet is done partly under pressure of sponsors and has caused resentment against "moe type" shows under both producers and fans. I don't mind fanservice and some of my favourite anime are definitely moe still I don't think its a good development that of the 40 or so anime released every quarter at least half would fall under one category.

I was always confused about this. Books say she is 15 but in the series, Millia herself states that she is was the veteran of THOUSANDS of battles and never lost.

Zentradi (uncultured) are cloned, not born and don't go through childhood, Milia has been a soldier for 15 years(assuming they are cloned battle ready and don't need years of training). That's enough time to build up an impressive amount of sorties.

Edited October 19, 2009 by Bri

[Gubaba]

I think this thread seems to be getting fragmented into too many little conversations to be generally useful.

That said...

Having ten days pass while being in the fold for only an hour is time dilation. It doesn't matter if its the result of Frontier's Fold faults or Einstein's theory of relativity, time is still passing much slower on the inside of the fold then on the outside according to Misa's own statements in SDF Macoss.

As you said, Misa explains an single hour in the fold is 10 days in normal space. That means that every hour in the fold a 240 hours have passed on the outside of the fold. After doing some simple math you will see that the ten years humanity had to repair the Macross equals 87600 hours. Divide that by 240 and you end up with 365 hours or a little over 15 days. It makes much more sense for the Zentradi to purse the Macross for what was only 15 days for them, I doubt they would have the patience or supplies to survive a 10 year straight fold jump.

Yeah, it kind of DOES matter if you're talking about fold faults or relatively. Relatively would be constant (as long as you maintained the same speed) throughout the duration of the journey. But someone going ten lights years in a fold would theoritically make the trip instantly. A small fold fault would add maybe a few hours or a day onto the trip (from the outside...it would still be instantaneous, of course, for those inside the ship). A larger fold fault would add on more time. So the calculations you made are no very useful...we'd need to know how many fold faults there are and how big they are before being able to calculate the duration of the trip.

At least, that's how I understand it.

Anyway, Sketchley's translation seems to show that Gunbuster-stye time dilation doesn't occur with Macross-style folds.

As for checking sources, I unfortantly can't view ANY Macross at the moment. The other day all my anime, music, etc was wiped clean off my external 1TB hard drive

Ouch...a similar thing happened to me last year...I wish you good luck in putting your collection back together.

I see your point, Gubba. Honestly its a habit of mine to state assumptions as facts and go with them until some absolutely proves me wrong, I must have inherited it from my father who was a lawyer.

Whereas I probably qualify everything more than I should, just because I've been proven wrong SO MANY times.

'Cause really...there's no one like a sci-fi fan to go in and parse sentences with almost rabbinical fervor...

[Roy Focker]

Sure there is a good reason for Sheryl to be dressed like a stripper of the time. It isn't about fan service. It just part of the story. I think that's what some actresses say about nude scenes that they do in movies. It has nothing to do with marketing the movie.

[Freiflug88]

Anyway, Sketchley's translation seems to show that Gunbuster-stye time dilation doesn't occur with Macross-style folds.

Whatever, the whole point I was trying to make about Milia supposedly being over a thousand years old is that her youth could be owed to all those fold jumps she and her fleet have made to battlefields across the galaxy.

Ouch...a similar thing happened to me last year...I wish you good luck in putting your collection back together.

Thanks. Its not a disaster, more like a set back. The HD did not fail out of the blue or anything. The plan was to use my HD and bootable recovery software to recover important tax files and such from another computer cause someone never made backups like the promised they would. I knew my HD would be partitioned and wiped clean in the process so I backed up what can't be easily replaced on what few DVD-Rs and spare Harddrive space I had around the house. At the very least now I have a reason to download Blinx01's fansubbed Frontier DVDs instead of never getting around to fansubbing the RAW ISOs I used to have.

'Cause really...there's no one like a sci-fi fan to go in and parse sentences with almost rabbinical fervor...

Nah, its just those Robo-trekkies making every sci-fan look bad.

Sure there is a good reason for Sheryl to be dressed like a stripper of the time. It isn't about fan service. It just part of the story. I think that's what some actresses say about nude scenes that they do in movies. It has nothing to do with marketing the movie.

Exactly, its nothing about fan service Sheryl just looks like a stripper because its part of a great well written plot that they just wanted to write. Compare that to the stupid plot of Kawamori's Aquarion. A dozen extrememly healthy and attractive teenagers that spend their days merging together though a giant robot in organismic bliss and finding everything there is to do with one another, yet they never ever go on a real date or get laid during all that free time they have in there dorms?

Man the Aquiron plot sucks almost as much as that story that had an aging war hero with a pornstar name who got sucked into a blackhole and a small band of military pilots built like comic book superheros, their alien girl friends who strangely enough look as human as Pamela Anderson, and a nerd who had a second puberty and can free ships from blackholes with technobable. Rather then have a really epic plot about these attactive charaters running out in SLO MOE to their big yellow rescue ship with their red revealing spandex space suits swearing never to let another space traveler drown in the depths of space, the writers of this movie come up with some lame story of humanity fighting alien torsos with phasers and ships set to flower power.

At least Macross Frontier got things right though with Sheryl: slurmty pop idol goes on tour loses earrings then alien attacks, spoiled brat and her armed entourage leaves fans to die in the presidential Limo. Next day spoiled brat bathes with the TV (an electrictial accident just waiting to happen), realizes earrings are missing, goes to find them, stuff happens, and her sole purpose in life becomes enslaving the most indecisive and femine looking boy aboard the Frontier into her slave using her body and her stripperific clothing. Later she finds out she has the latest form of Space AIDs and ponders rather she got it from the Squad leader from Africa who always hangs out with that gay flight attendant aboard the Macross Quarter, or if the urban tales are false and that the AIDs comes from aliens. Then she lets her boy toy seduce her and doesn't even tell him he that he is probably HIV positive. No wonder Itano missed 90% of the mecha action of Frontier, he was just too engrossed by this awesome charater-based plot and her boobs... which were only there for the plot.

[Mercurial Morpheus]

Have you seen all that much nose art? A lot of it looked like it was painted by a third grader and a lot of the rest was directly copied from pinup calendars or cartoon characters or the like. Or if you mean suggestive content, I did a quick search but I'm pretty sure most of the striking examples were things I shouldn't post here due to yet more explicit nudity and sexual reference so I'll stick with this one. If this sort of stuff got by in the 1940s, it's a little silly to be too prudish about it today.

Considering that the B-17 is my favorite aircraft, and that I have a family history with the plane, I grew up reading books with tons of nose art (not like you knew that, so I'll let it slide ). Kids at school would borrow books at reading time just to gawk at them. Trust me, I know how sexy they are, and as a huge fan of pin-up art, enjoy it, but I've rarely seen anything as blatant as Rise Up (granted, I'm sure most of the more blatant stuff never made it into the books). It's usually a lot more subtle (outside of plain nudity and euphemisms). Even your example is a lot less over the edge (honestly, if you removed the phrase "Rise Up', it'd be a bit more on base, she'd more likely be riding the shell than having it as an obvious phallic symbol too). That stuff also didn't "get by" in the forties. Base commanders allowed it and encouraged it as a morale booster. It was tolerated. Generally, the further from headquarters, the laxer the rules (I've read it's the Pacific theatre that the real racey stuff comes from like The Dragon and His Tail, featuring a woman in the dragon's embrace). Still, most planes that got selected for hometown bonds tours got the images blanked out, since they'd have caused an uproar back home. Korea and Vietnam had their own share too, with the latter being less sexual and more metal.

I'm not even really arguing the fanservice angle, and generally agree with you on it. Even the art is question has a touch of whimsical fancy to it, so it's not like I abhor it. I'm pretty liberal with sexual media. It is more fitting for Sheryl than the "Hard On" art of Ranka. It just was a touch amazing to see that of all images get selected as an early figure (I suppose they wanted something to match the more tradition looking Ranka, sort of like how they had to make a goth Rei for the goth Asuka). Though I hesitate to agree that a Sheryl figure "done right" necessitates such a thing on such a level even if it is a part of the character, thats all (and I know that's mostly in jest). Basically, VFTF1 likes things a touch smuttier than me, whereas I like a bit more of a clever touch. It's like how Ranka is cute, but not all Ranka figures have to be dipped in sugar. B) It's a matter of taste mostly, I guess, and Gubaba's right in that this thread is fragmenting. I was mainly bringing it up in reference to Pete's reaction to Itano as an example of what he may be complaining about, not so much complaining about it myself. I'm not even sure if Itano means all he says about Frontier (which I must remind all is very little so far). He could just be using it as an example merely because he's talking to Macross Ace. Makes more sense to rant about something more relevant, even if it's not your main beef.

Though one thing, while one can argue that it has nothing to do with fanservice, think again. Just because it's a part of the character, doesn't mean it's not some form of fanservice. After all, she's a fictional character, and they chose those aspects for her. I'm not really arguing against her as a sex symbol as that's clearly one of the things she was meant to be. You guys are saying having the decision to make a stripper-esque stage presence part of the character had nothing to do with marketing? Even the albums these arts were sold with promoted the sexy stickers inside rather than the music. Sure, there's an artistic duality to how it's handled, but thinking that's all there is to it is rather naive. That's pretty idyllic thinking. They simply handled it well enough to get away with it. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, and it's best when made a valid character point, I'm just saying don't fool yourself into thinking it's purely there for noble reasons. Sheryl's got a cute side to her too, and I mostly only see that in fan art.

This is derailing, and I'm not sure why I'm even on this part of the subject. ;;; So I think all's been said that needed to.

"'Cause really...there's no one like a sci-fi fan to go in and parse sentences with almost rabbinical fervor..."

You can say that again. Hence how a discussion on Itano's view on Ace becomes one on the sexuality of Sheryl Nome.

Edited October 20, 2009 by Mercurial Morpheus

[Killer Robot]

Though one thing, while one can argue that it has nothing to do with fanservice, think again. Just because it's a part of the character, doesn't mean it's not some form of fanservice. After all, she's a fictional character, and they chose those aspects for her. I'm not really arguing against her as a sex symbol as that's clearly one of the things she was meant to be. You guys are saying having the decision to make a stripper-esque stage presence part of the character had nothing to do with marketing? Even the albums these arts were sold with promoted the sexy stickers inside rather than the music. Sure, there's an artistic duality to how it's handled, but thinking that's all there is to it is rather naive. That's pretty idyllic thinking. They simply handled it well enough to get away with it. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, and it's best when made a valid character point, I'm just saying don't fool yourself into thinking it's purely there for noble reasons. Sheryl's got a cute side to her too, and I mostly only see that in fan art.

I never said that it had nothing to do with fanservice, and to my knowledge no one else has either. It being handled well enough to get away with is exactly my point. From my end of things, it seems a more common viewpoint is the opposite: that if there's sexuality, it must be empty fanservice with no meaning, just porn for obsessive shut-in otaku. Which isn't unique to anime, I'll clarify. In discussion of movies, TV, books, etc., a lot of people will likewise behave as anything that's not G-rated (other than horrific violence, possibly) is the same whether it's a respectable story, a low-budget T&A movie, or outright porn. It's important that while Frontier was often sexualized, rather little of it of it felt out of left field, badly-placed, overlong, or there solely to add in more fanservice like the feel I get from so many other modern anime. Even the things that raised warning flags for me ended up veering in unexpected and often clever directions. So while I can't blame people for seeing a fanservice element to Frontier, I can't see it made equivalent to the current, or even past, crop of series that have barely enough substance to get the camera from one bouncing breast or panty shot to another.

I suppose this isn't so much the central issue as a symptom, though. I feel a lot of older fans came into Frontier looking for something to hate. Some of them found it in Frontier not being the gritty military drama they were looking for, devoid of the whole culture and song distraction. Some of them found it in Frontier not being good clean kid show fare. Some of them found it in Frontier not being all about older people than SDFM - or about the same people who were last seen in SDFM. Some of them found it in how it didn't make them young viewers new to anime again, seeing something totally new and cool that they'd never even imagined before. Itano, perhaps, found it in how they didn't offer him a paycheck. Dissatisfaction is easy to find, when you want it: you just have to watch without open eyes. I almost was that fan, and now I'm glad I wasn't.

[Mercurial Morpheus]

I wasn't attributing it to you, sorry if I made it seem so. See post above mine and Roy Fokker's for why I added in the "not about fanservice bit". Though I believe Freiflug88's to be quite satirical.

[Bri]

I think we should separate the portrayal of Sheryl in Frontier from the way she is shown in the merchandise. In Frontier she is just a singer with a slightly tacky wardrobe (which is even holographically projected on her during concerts as she wears a full body suit) and undergoes the occasonal pantsu jokes but that's about it. For me it doesn't take anything away from the story but that's a personal opinion.

The merchandise/figures focus far more on the erotic side, and like Mercurial Morpheus, I think some of it is over the top. This is one point where you can lay the blame on producers trying to exploit the characters for money. I would love to see some other figure producers like Alter, Wave or Maxfactory take a shot at the Frontier crew. Currently I only bought the Lucky Star/Frontier set as the rest are just too poorly rendered or tasteless for me.

[Mercurial Morpheus]

Pretty much, though I can see bringing up her anime portrayal as justification for it. Like how I can see Sheryl in this sort of way moreso than Sheryl (I even wondered how many people preferred Sheryl over Ranka simply because she was "the sexy one" as shallow as that sounds). It sort of harkons back to the discussion of whether an average looking girl cosplaying a sexy character is any less worthy than a sexy girl doing it. Sheryl was designed for such purposes, and it would be ignorant not to acknowledge it. Though even Ranka gets the treatment too. Rise up seems more appropriate than Hard On given the character involved. Ranka does tend to inspire "tamer" figures and what not. It's awesome in the fanart, but a touch weird when the official art does it. It'll also be a battle between cute and sexual for ages. A middle ground is always desirable (hence the popularity of Tsundere, they can be sexy yet cute).

The simple truth of the matter is that anime is as much a business as it is an artform. There's always going to be a tension between the two as well as those who believe it should be more the former than the latter and vice versa. I even know people that refuse to acknowledge it as an artform simply because of the commercial aspect (these people tend to forget how much money greased the wheels of many masterpieces of various forms). Itano's argument seems to fall on that line. Finding that balance of cool for the right and wrong reasons, element that sell versus what's needed to get the story told, is always a key. When it comes to advertising, the greatest truth in merchandising to young adult males has long been "Sex Sells", whether we like it or not. I generally don't mind it as the alternatives aren't much better usually, but it can be bewildering at times (pretty much my take on all this, rather than, say, disgust). I'll watch an anime show for it's cute girls almost as much as for the meat of the program, though I prefer to look at it as a bonus. Anime caters so much to young men, it's created a slew of female characters that run the gamut from shy and meek to strong and confident (which is why cosplay caters so well to women, the girl characters often outshine the men). No red-blooded young man can ignore it totally. Peoples' definition of sexy varies like all opinions. It's just nice when they're not being so gosh darn obvious about it all the time.

It's a discussion that'll go on til the cows come home I'm afraid, so varied is the topic.