3d Printer

[Tober]

I'll try to get something scanned, just to see how feasable it is to reverse engineer it. I have no idea how much it might cost tho.

[Jasonc]

Thanks for the pics. That printer seems alright for the final product. How many 3D printers are you planning on getting samples from? Also, the samples you pictured, what type of plastic does it print? Do the various printers print w/ various forms of plastic? If so, you may want to look more into the one that has the most durable of plastics.

That will also help if you decide to "print" molds. You'll get more copies like that perhaps. Also, I take it that if the paint is holding pretty well, things like putty and all that will bond quite well, too.

[tundrayeti]

Thanks for the pics. That printer seems alright for the final product. How many 3D printers are you planning on getting samples from? Also, the samples you pictured, what type of plastic does it print? Do the various printers print w/ various forms of plastic? If so, you may want to look more into the one that has the most durable of plastics.

I have requested various samples from other manufacturers. They have not sent any even though they were requested. This company was the only one to send samples. I was able to go to a local school and see the dimension printer in action. the plastic seemed robust enough, but it printed in layers that were .010" thick and used small jets to apply the plastic. The unit that i am looking at, the V-flash utilizes a thin film of liquid plastic that is cured under UV lamps. This enables this unit to print faster and in more detail since the unit prints in layers that are .004" think. Not to mention that the V-flash is also about $4000 less than the dimension. There are other units out there that go for even less, but the resolution and layer thickness was the same or greater than the dimension. they also had an extremely small print area. The print tray on the V-flash is 9" x 6 3/4" x 8" (228 x 171 x 203 mm). That's not too shabby for the price. models that are larger than this can be broken up into sections and then printed. I have looked into units with larger print area's but they are in the $30000 plus price range. I think that the V-flash will give the most bang for the buck.

[Jasonc]

I have requested various samples from other manufacturers. They have not sent any even though they were requested. This company was the only one to send samples. I was able to go to a local school and see the dimension printer in action. the plastic seemed robust enough, but it printed in layers that were .010" thick and used small jets to apply the plastic. The unit that i am looking at, the V-flash utilizes a thin film of liquid plastic that is cured under UV lamps. This enables this unit to print faster and in more detail since the unit prints in layers that are .004" think. Not to mention that the V-flash is also about $4000 less than the dimension. There are other units out there that go for even less, but the resolution and layer thickness was the same or greater than the dimension. they also had an extremely small print area. The print tray on the V-flash is 9" x 6 3/4" x 8" (228 x 171 x 203 mm). That's not too shabby for the price. models that are larger than this can be broken up into sections and then printed. I have looked into units with larger print area's but they are in the $30000 plus price range. I think that the V-flash will give the most bang for the buck.

That's cool news that you've been researching this more than just price. The layers of .004 is awesome too, which means less finishing work and a more detailed end result. Anyways, keep us informed of the progress of the startup. I've been looking into the possibility of doing the Studio Half-eye 1/100 VA-3M Invader in a 1/60 scale. As of now, I have heard from one person who can do it, and they have yet to get me pricing. Because these parts have som rounded parts, it may be simplest to use a scanner. As I'm not hip on the details and specifications of 3D scanners, it seems that at .004 per layer, the detail of rounded objects maybe quite well.

[tundrayeti]

Just an update. I am finishing up on a sample part that I am going to have printed. Once I have the part in hand, I will post some pictures The part will be the back end of an SC-27 stargoose model that i am doing in 1/100 scale. Here is a pic of the model in 3d.

[Dio]

Interesting discussion! You'll have to let us know what formats of solid models can be created with the hardware once you get it.

I'd be ecstatic to be involved in a MW-exclusive valk design project someday

[Jasonc]

I'm hoping my dream of a 1/60 version of the Studio Half-Eye VA-3 Invader can come to fruition. I know it'll probably cost quite a bit, but it'll be well worth it when I have it.

[mechaninac]

The company I work for has both an SLA machine with a 10"x10" capacity tank, and a Dimension Unit with roughly the same build volume capacity.

In my personal experience, Dimension parts are good only for the typical meeting show and tell; if you need a "quick" and dirty model of objects without medium to fine detail than that's the rout to take... the results are good enough to show marketing types in order to get feedback on shape and size of a particular product. Also, since the Dimension process entails the extrusion of a near-melting-point filament of ABS, it is better suited for early stage prototyping where the model being made is still a solid mass -- this process is not kind to shelled parts, ribs, bosses, flanges, snaps, or any form of detail as the bonding between layers is very fragile. On the plus side, clean-up is a cinch since the parts are anchored to the building plate by a soluble support substrate that dissolves in a hot detergent bath.

When fine detail is desired, intended for pre-production validation, or the part is to be sanded and painted to be shown to clients or for a photo shoot, then SLA is used. Layer resolution is .1mm (.004") so the parts are supper accurate, and today's resins have properties to meet just about any requirement need by the end-user: rubber like, resiliency, transparency, heat resistance (the stuff we currently have in our machine is water clear and mimics the physical properties of PP... very cool stuff). SLA is very easy to sand... think hard casting resin; it also takes paint and tinting very well. On the down side, clean up is a royal b!tch; the supports that anchor the parts to the building grid are the same material as the part and require a dedicated cleaning station filled with solvent or alcohol, and a lot of elbow grease to detach and clean (it's smelly and messy), and the waste is toxic so proper disposal is a must. Also, parts must be post-cured in a UV booth to finish them before anything else is done to them.

I've had limited experience with SLS; but I recall that, unlike SLA, it is limited in the size of the parts that can be built (that may have changed with the possible introduction of larger frame machines), and resolution is somewhat rougher. SLS parts are extremely strong, and IIRC, metal deposition is a supported process as well. And clean up is a breeze since there are no supports; you just shake, blow the parts with an air hose to remove unused media, and go.

There is an Israeli machine that competes with SLA for resolution, sandability and paintability that is very interesting too. Accuracy and surface finish is on par with SLA, although material strength was lacking on the last samples I handled. On the plus side, if you need multimedia printing this is your choice (Ex.: lets say you need a part representing a plastic housing with a rubberized grip over-molded onto it, or a button membrane covering a switch slot... this is the machine to use as their top-of-the-line unit can generate your model with both materials in a single building session); and since the build support is a non-toxic paraffin-like substance that encapsulates the prototype, clean-up is easy.

That is my experience with Rapid Prototyping. Hope it helps in your search.

Edited December 8, 2009 by mechaninac

[tundrayeti]

The machine that I'm looking at uses SLS. The material is very robust and seems to fit all of my requirements. Mechaniac, thanks so much for the info. Always nice to have input from someone experienced. I am almost done with my first printable model kit, so hopefully soon I will have parts to take pictures of. I will post them as soon as possible. thanks for all the great input!.

[Jasonc]

I know it's been the holidays and whatnot, but is there any updates on this subject? Does this mean that you've bought the machine? Also, I know I'm asking a lot of questions, but did you get a 3D scanner? Just keep us updated, Cause when you're setup, I'd like to talk with you about taking my 1/100 scale VA-3 transformable kit, and scaling it up to 1/60. BTW, happy holidays. Hope all is well.

[tundrayeti]

Well It has been awhile since i have given any updates. I am currently getting some test peices printed so I am waiting on those. The 3D scanner is in the process of being built, and I am waiting on the machine unitl i can see if it can handle the kind of detail we all want. once i get the test pieces, i will be sure to post pictures. I spent yesterday engraving some customized panels for my hangar bay layout. I will paint them and post pictures of those as well. Thanks for the holiday greeting JasonC. I am enjoying my family. but of course also setting some time aside for my projects. have a safe New Year everyone!

Edited December 30, 2009 by tundrayeti

[tundrayeti]

okay here are some quick pics from my CNC routed custom panel sheets. any comments/questions are welcome.

[olivers]

Take a look at:

http://www.makerbot.com/

[tundrayeti]

Take a look at:

http://www.makerbot.com/

thanks for the link Olivers. its very interesting how many do it yourself printers there are out there. i can't seem to find how detailed it is though.

[cobywan]

I found the machine you want.

http://www.rjmrp.com/main/index.php?option...4&Itemid=42

http://www.rjmrp.com/main/images/stories/g...tory/100123.jpg

I saw some parts done with this that are insanely detailed. Super crisp. And could be used on a model at is. The parts I saw were way better than what I've seen Tamiya doing in their new kits.

[tundrayeti]

I found the machine you want.

http://www.rjmrp.com/main/index.php?option...4&Itemid=42

http://www.rjmrp.com/main/images/stories/g...tory/100123.jpg

I saw some parts done with this that are insanely detailed. Super crisp. And could be used on a model at is. The parts I saw were way better than what I've seen Tamiya doing in their new kits.

Cobywan,

Thanks for the link, the detail is awesome, i looked into this machine, it was very expensive and it only prints very small area. (40mm x 50mm). It is very impressive as far as detail goes. I could be wrong but the price that i got for that machine was 55000 GBP which is around 80,000 US. Pretty pricey but i must say i was blown away by the detail on the 1/300 scale soldiers that i saw printed. Awesome. As with anything there is give and take. I'm just trying to see what kind of detail i can get for the best price. I am having samples printed out now So i will post pics and get some feedback. Thanks so much for the info Cobywan, If i hit the lottery tomorrow, I will definitely get one of these machines and let you have first crack at it. All kidding aside i want to thank everyone for their input. Once I have my sample parts, I will make my decision from there.

[tundrayeti]

Just an update so no one thinks that this is dead. I'm still waiting for some samples but my job has had me traveling a lot, I will be in Texas this week so I won't know anything for awhile. I will however be making the custom panels available to anyone who is interested. Just drop me a message. I've already had some interest in these so I can do those in the meantime till the printer gets up and running.

[MechTech]

Thanks for the updates on this. I'm learning a lot about the "dream machine" I may have someday. - MT

[shinagami]

tundrayeti sir, do you have a 3d scanner?.....i was thinking to make a 1/35scale RX-79(G) Gundam from gundam 08th ms team OVA to compliment with my future diorama project using 1/35scale gundam hardgraph....wud it be possible?

[tundrayeti]

tundrayeti sir, do you have a 3d scanner?.....i was thinking to make a 1/35scale RX-79(G) Gundam from gundam 08th ms team OVA to compliment with my future diorama project using 1/35scale gundam hardgraph....wud it be possible?

Shinagami,

I will be getting a 3d scanner. pretty much i will have my little "factory" up and running in about a month. I have a CNC machine and The 3d scanner on order. they are being built now and should be done in 3-4 weeks. I have access to a CNC machine which is what i used to make my custom diorama panels. it won't do 3d though and I'd like to experiment with that a little more. If you have an idea of what you would like, send me a photo and when i get up and running, let's see what we can do. There has been a lot of interest in the 3d printer and the CNC project. I'm very excited to see where this will go.

[SpaceCowboy]

Have any of you looked at 3D milling? Outside of initial expense, material is going to be the most expensive things with these 3D printers, and I don't see raw material dropping in price like technology can. I found this:

http://www.rolanddga.com/products/milling/

I think the MDX-40A comes in at around $8000, and you can buy blocks of wood for your material (cheap). I think the stepping size for that unit is 0.002 mm

The MDX-540 has a 0.001mm stepping size but ranges from $20,000-$36,000, so a bit pricey.

Still, it seems like milling might be a good alternative to printing. The only concern I would have is with very tiny parts breaking off due to friction, but maybe that isn't a problem? I haven't really investigated more.

[tundrayeti]

Have any of you looked at 3D milling? Outside of initial expense, material is going to be the most expensive things with these 3D printers, and I don't see raw material dropping in price like technology can. I found this:

http://www.rolanddga.com/products/milling/

I think the MDX-40A comes in at around $8000, and you can buy blocks of wood for your material (cheap). I think the stepping size for that unit is 0.002 mm

The MDX-540 has a 0.001mm stepping size but ranges from $20,000-$36,000, so a bit pricey.

Still, it seems like milling might be a good alternative to printing. The only concern I would have is with very tiny parts breaking off due to friction, but maybe that isn't a problem? I haven't really investigated more.

Thanks for the link Cowboy! I have been looking into the 3d printer as an alternative. I already own a 3d cnc machine, i was looking into something that would do more detailed work. The cost of materials is very cheap for a cnc compared to the 3d printer, and From what I have seen so far this may not be as cost effective as my CNC machine. I am going to be upgrading my 3d CNC software here very soon and it looks as though there will be a few advantages and disadvantages to the cnc vs the #D printer which I can live with. The largest advantage is cost. not only Was my CNC mach9ine cheaper, but i can use a variety of materials. The disadvantage is that the 3d prnter can do more complex shapes and has slightly better detail. Another advantage is that with CNC machine, i don't have to go through as much painstaking work with the 3d model. in order to print something on the 3d printer, it has to me Manifold or Water tight. this means no stray vertices or lines. My cnc machine simply does not care. So for those of you who were interested in checking out this technology, I haven't given up on the notion yet, but I may wait a bit to see what comes out in 2010. it seems a newer, less expensive machine comes out every couple months so we will see. When i get my 3d scanner and my new software for the cnc machine installed, i will definately post some photos. anyone who is still interested in starting a project, please dont hesitate to email me. thanks all! Oh here is a pic of my machine.

[tundrayeti]

Okay, well I have been out of town for a few weeks, but I'm back. I know that there has been a lot of interest in this and due to the costs involved in buying my own 3d printer, I will hold off on it for now. I think that in a year or two there will be a printer out there that will give the detail that I want, at a better price. I have looked into the "garage-built" that some have sent me links to and I may get one of those, just to get one to play with. With each machine, it seemed that there was a trade off between detail and cost. the cheaper the machine, the lower the detail. The V-flash was probably the best for the price so far but i feel that it will come down in the next few years.

Now I have some good news for those that expressed interest in some projects. I still have my CNC machine and I have upgraded my software to do 3d applications. I also have found someone who already has a few 3d printers who will print stuff at cost. So although I am holding off on getting the machine, The means to make some projects is still available. So At this time, anyone who has some ideas, let me know. I have a few that have been kicking around in my head for a while. In addition to my VC-33 and SC-27 models, I am also going to try a Gallant H-90 from Mospeada. I always thought the weapon was cool and this will be my first attempt with the new 3d software for my CNC machine.

I will also be continuing to make the custom diorama panels for anyone who is interested.

Here are the preliminary drawings for the H-90.

[Iceblue106]

Hey Tundrayeti,

Its been some time since we chatted last but I was wondering if you had specific sizes you could do regarding your custom diorama panels.

If you could, please PM me the possibilities as well as the cost for said possible sizes.

Also was wondering if what you have applies to the decking only or if you have stuff that can be used as wall sections as well.

Thanks a bunch and look forward to hearing from you soon.

Blue

[tundrayeti]

Well it's pretty much up to anyone's imagination. For my own diorama, I have done both Decking and Wall sections. It's pretty much up to the individual as to what He or She wants. I can tell you that material costs will be cheap. The material that I used is PVC sheeting and will go for around $3-4 per square foot 1/8" thick. That price is based on what i get from my supplier. I try to get it in bigger sheets so the cost is low, but It won't be over $4 a square foot. It should be closer to 3 but with the way things are prices change. The rest of the cost will be determined on how complex the project is, but I can tell you that my total diorama with materials and machine time cost me about $80.00 and that was for a 6' x 4' section including the walls. The doors were a little more due to the thickness of the material but I did both for around $20. I will have some standard stuff available, but of course my whole idea behind doing this stuff is to inspire people and make their vision's come to life without breaking their wallet. Money isn't everything so send me a message. Something can always be worked out. So I say show me your ideas and let's make some cool stuff!!!

[Iceblue106]

Hey Yeti,

Thanks for the Info and be sure to check your PM box.

We will see what we can do to help with the inspiration.

Blue

[tundrayeti]

Thanks to everyone for their interest in the custom panel project! I have attached some design drawings for what are going to be some of the "standard" 16" x 16" panels that will be made avaliable. I'm trying to keep the cost down below $25 each I will be doing a test run of these panels soon and as always, feedback is appreciated and if you want something custom, send me a message and let's see what we can do! Overall response to this idea has been very positive! I will post more idea's as they come.

[Tober]

I don't suppose anyone knows what sort of price range is involved in getting small stuff scanned into 3D files?

[THOR]

veritech missiles.

just printed them out in 1/48 and 1/32

will post pics of the real stuff as soon as i can find my camera

[THOR]

in process of building my own scanner while i save up for one.

left to right 1/72, 1/48, 1/32

[THOR]

I don't suppose anyone knows what sort of price range is involved in getting small stuff scanned into 3D files?

i was quoted $90/hr. point cloud into usable file like .stl

THOR

[Tober]

i was quoted $90/hr. point cloud into usable file like .stl

THOR

Thanks

How long did it take to scan the missiles? The results look good. And what modelling program are you using there, it looks a bit like NURBS? Is that model derived directly from the stl file or did you need to trace?

Thanks again.

[cobywan]

1/32nd huh? Are there already plans in the works? I have a short list of projects and a VF-1 in that scale is at the top of it.

[THOR]

Thanks

How long did it take to scan the missiles? The results look good. And what modelling program are you using there, it looks a bit like NURBS? Is that model derived directly from the stl file or did you need to trace?

Thanks again.

I use Solidworks9 right now and use calipers/micrometers to reverse engineer the parts and interpret line art, etc. Takes me a few hours each part depending on the shapes and details. Once done in solidworks I can scale it to any size I want keeping in mind the size of the printer i might use and trying to hollow stuff out as you are usually charged by the volume of material used to make your part.

Scanning is my next step. I'll post scans of various items in a few weeks as i'm waiting for a higher powered laser with a very small diameter beam to show up at my door.

-THOR

Edited April 5, 2010 by THOR

[THOR]

1/32nd huh? Are there already plans in the works? I have a short list of projects and a VF-1 in that scale is at the top of it.

1/32 vf-1 is a dream of mine. hopefully soon to be a reality...