Destroids...

[JB0]

... the Tomahawk ... the chest gun clusters and the head guns are gone...

The Tomahawk's chest guns are, by spec, anti-infantry equipment. Light machine guns, flamethrowers, and grenade launchers. I ASSUME they can pivot downward to some degree for the sake of effectiveness. Otherwise the poor mech has a huge blind spot.

I'd keep them, just to deter some jerkwad from running between your legs and lobbing a molotov cocktail into your knee.

[anime52k8]

The Tomahawk's chest guns are, by spec, anti-infantry equipment. Light machine guns, flamethrowers, and grenade launchers. I ASSUME they can pivot downward to some degree for the sake of effectiveness. Otherwise the poor mech has a huge blind spot.

I'd keep them, just to deter some jerkwad from running between your legs and lobbing a molotov cocktail into your knee.

fare enough, although if that's the case you'd really only need 1 machine gun in a ball turret such as on the VB-6 rather than 2 weapon clusters that each include a 180mm grenade launcher and a flame thrower.

[JB0]

fare enough, although if that's the case you'd really only need 1 machine gun in a ball turret such as on the VB-6 rather than 2 weapon clusters that each include a 180mm grenade launcher and a flame thrower.

The more the merrier, right?

[reddsun1]

The Tomahawk's chest guns are, by spec, anti-infantry equipment. Light machine guns, flamethrowers, and grenade launchers. I ASSUME they can pivot downward to some degree for the sake of effectiveness. Otherwise the poor mech has a huge blind spot.

I'd keep them, just to deter some jerkwad from running between your legs and lobbing a molotov cocktail into your knee.

But don't forget: scientists had already discovered evidence of the existence of giant aliens while exploring the remains of the Macross post-crash on Ataria Island. The Destroids--like the VF's--were designed for potential combat against a foe roughly 14m tall; not necessarily against "regular" sized humanoids.

What caliber are the mg's and grenades listed in the specs for Tomahawk? They're pretty well oversized, compared to "normal" weapons, aren't they? I can't remember.

Edited February 23, 2010 by reddsun1

[Seto Kaiba]

I'd keep them, just to deter some jerkwad from running between your legs and lobbing a molotov cocktail into your knee.

Unless destroid armor also caught it in the shorts when Kawamori rolled up and added energy converting armor to the mix, something like a Molotov cocktail should be no cause for disquiet on the part of a destroid pilot... they were, after all, built for combat against ten meter tall aliens and their mecha.

The more the merrier, right?

Eh, swapping the paired gun clusters out for something a little more versatile and, more importantly, a bit closer to the target... like the groin-mounted Gatling gun on the French C3-5 Mistral II arm slave from Full Metal Panic (bottom left mecha in the image below), or the chin-mounted antipersonnel machine gun on the MSER-04 Anf in Gundam 00. There are more examples of this, I'm just too lazy to dig them out. (EDIT + NB: The nominal destroid and "Poor Man's Valkyrie" known as the GERWALKroid has the same sort of chin-mounted cannon arrangement as the Anf... they even look somewhat similar...)

But don't forget: scientists had already discovered evidence of the existence of giant aliens while exploring the remains of the Macross post-crash on Ataria Island. The Destroids--like the VF's--were designed for potential combat against a foe roughly 14m tall; not necessarily against "regular" sized humanoids.

What caliber are the mg's and grenades listed in the specs for Tomahawk? They're pretty well oversized, compared to "normal" weapons, aren't they? I can't remember.

Oddly enough, the Tomahawk's 12.7mm antipersonnel machine guns are mounted on top of the head where they won't do a damn bit of good against infantry at close ranges. (Can you imagine the Tomahawk running around bent almost double trying to sweep infantry with that thing?)

The chest-mounted gun clusters are pretty clearly anti-giant weaponry... a laser cannon, a flamethrower, a 25mm machine gun, and a 180mm grenade launcher. No doubt they have practical applications against miclone targets too, such as destroying conventional armored vehicles and mopping up squads of infantry with napalm and/or shrapnel, though their placement would seem to indicate the intent was to be used against something about the same size as the Tomahawk itself (~11m).

Edited February 23, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[akt_m]

So why did they re-use the VF-0's missiles for the VF-171?

Probably because instead of wasting time designing a new missile and modeling it for a secondary valk in the series, they decided to re-use the same 3d model that was already done and ready to use.

Edited February 23, 2010 by akt_m

[VF5SS]

Probably because instead of wasting time designing a new missile and modeling it for a secondary valk in the series, they decided to re-use the same 3d model that was already done and ready to use.

but it breaks continuity

[Uxi]

I see a second Gen Defender becoming a even more optimized point deference unit. instead of High power auto cannons/rail guns it would use VERY high rate of fire cannons (think 6-10,000 RPM compared to the GU-11's 1,200.) firing high velocity 30-40mm rounds (giving much more ammo than the existing Defender's 200 rounds per gun).

it would be functionally much like the Cheyenne, but minus all the extras (i.e. no hands, no missiles, no rockets, no wheels, etc.) as it would be strictly a AA mech.

Look at which directions "point defense" is going in real life. LAD and Aegis Combat System are using a mixture of CIWS Phalanx rotary cannon and ABM missiles. Next on deck is chemical lasers.

[miles316]

Look at which directions "point defense" is going in real life. LAD and Aegis Combat System are using a mixture of CIWS Phalanx rotary cannon and ABM missiles. Next on deck is chemical lasers.

Chemical LASERS will become obsolete with the introduction, of solid state Diode based LASERS were the only moving part is the optics in the Turret.

The ABL 747 may be the only working platform in the military using a chemical LASER most first gen Battle field LASERS will be Solid state.

[anime52k8]

Look at which directions "point defense" is going in real life. LAD and Aegis Combat System are using a mixture of CIWS Phalanx rotary cannon and ABM missiles. Next on deck is chemical lasers.

but chemical lasers aren't badass. it IS anime so rule-of-cool still applies. a Robot with multiple Gatling guns spewing thousands of bullets at something is.

but my whole point was make the Phalanx more like a giant Phalanx/goalkeeper CIWS with legs.

[Uxi]

I didn't intend any general specificity to apply to future development of lasers as limited to chemicals. More just pointing out that AA as envisioned in the original Defender is getting increasingly archaic.

[JB0]

Unless destroid armor also caught it in the shorts when Kawamori rolled up and added energy converting armor to the mix, something like a Molotov cocktail should be no cause for disquiet on the part of a destroid pilot... they were, after all, built for combat against ten meter tall aliens and their mecha.

It's still got a lot of joints. And joints by their very nature can't be perfectly armored or sealed(even if they can be, the seals will wear very fast on a high-activity joint like a knee or ankle).

Get a fluid of suitably low viscosity on those joints and it'll go in.

'S been a problem since the first armored vehicles rolled into battle, and adding more moving parts isn't going to make it any easier. I'd be VERY surprised if they found a solution, even with overtech.

Pinpoint barrier would be my best bet.

It'd actually be kind of funny to see the zentradi rebels lobbing giant wine bottles at incoming destroids(not the giant turkey legs, of course. Just the booze.). Right up intil the flames hit.

Eh, swapping the paired gun clusters out for something a little more versatile and, more importantly, a bit closer to the target... like the groin-mounted Gatling gun on the French C3-5 Mistral II arm slave from Full Metal Panic (bottom left mecha in the image below), or the chin-mounted antipersonnel machine gun on the MSER-04 Anf in Gundam 00. There are more examples of this, I'm just too lazy to dig them out. (EDIT + NB: The nominal destroid and "Poor Man's Valkyrie" known as the GERWALKroid has the same sort of chin-mounted cannon arrangement as the Anf... they even look somewhat similar...)

Metal Gear Solid's titular mech had a laser in the crotch. That it fired if you ran between it's legs to get behind it. The bastards.

Could go ALL THE WAY down to infantry level and put the light weapons close to eye level. Machine gun turrets sticking out of the feet would be awesome.

Oddly enough, the Tomahawk's 12.7mm antipersonnel machine guns are mounted on top of the head where they won't do a damn bit of good against infantry at close ranges. (Can you imagine the Tomahawk running around bent almost double trying to sweep infantry with that thing?)

I can, and I'm laughing maniacally.

I'm truly amazed they're head guns. Just assumed that a relatively light-caliber gun, which even today is used for taking out guys on foot, was mounted in a place where it could take out guys on foot.

I understand we have to tip our hats to Gundam every now and then, but... can't we do it in a more rational manner?

[Seto Kaiba]

'S been a problem since the first armored vehicles rolled into battle, and adding more moving parts isn't going to make it any easier. I'd be VERY surprised if they found a solution, even with overtech. [...] It'd actually be kind of funny to see the zentradi rebels lobbing giant wine bottles at incoming destroids(not the giant turkey legs, of course. Just the booze.). Right up intil the flames hit.

For some reason this reminded me of a scene from Five Star Stories, where Amaterasu is watching an one of his old prototype mortar headds (the Auge Arusqull go into battle for the first time, notices it has an active binder (a low-grade energy shield) and remembers that he had originally installed it to protect the MH from what he saw as the inevitability of Molotov cocktails being thrown at it because of its disreputable original pilot Dougulus Kaien.

Could go ALL THE WAY down to infantry level and put the light weapons close to eye level. Machine gun turrets sticking out of the feet would be awesome.

Actually, I think Five Star Stories did something like that on a few occasions, in addition to putting all kinds of little antipersonnel lasers on the frame with enough of a field of fire to shoot straight down around the mecha's feet if need be.

I can, and I'm laughing maniacally.

I'm truly amazed they're head guns. Just assumed that a relatively light-caliber gun, which even today is used for taking out guys on foot, was mounted in a place where it could take out guys on foot.

I understand we have to tip our hats to Gundam every now and then, but... can't we do it in a more rational manner?

Dunno... it works well enough in Gundam, Full Metal Panic, and the other shows where the robot's head is sufficiently mobile to let it target units on the ground. I can't see it working quite as well on the Tomahawk, since that thing's head is fixed.

[Uxi]

Oddly enough, the Tomahawk's 12.7mm antipersonnel machine guns are mounted on top of the head where they won't do a damn bit of good against infantry at close ranges. (Can you imagine the Tomahawk running around bent almost double trying to sweep infantry with that thing?)

Is it definitely stated that the 12.7mm is meant for antipersonnel? That's .50 caliber and both US/NATO and former Warsaw Pact use those weapons for anti-vehicle (unarmored) and light air-defense. 7.62 is used by both for anti-personnel...

[Seto Kaiba]

Is it definitely stated that the 12.7mm is meant for antipersonnel?

Yes, it is... as you would've known had you checked the Compendium or some other reliable reference site.

Edited February 24, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[aquilon]

I'm truly amazed they're head guns. Just assumed that a relatively light-caliber gun, which even today is used for taking out guys on foot, was mounted in a place where it could take out guys on foot.

Why not have machine guns in the head? To a Zentran, that'd be a couple of 50cal spraying right into his face - don't know about you, but, scale-wise, a face-ful of 22's in my face would be enough to ruin my day.

Edited February 24, 2010 by aquilon

[Seto Kaiba]

Why not have machine guns in the head? To a Zentran, that'd be a couple of 50cal spraying right into his face - don't know about you, but, scale-wise, a face-ful of 22's in my face would be enough to ruin my day.

Um... you've scaled your comparison incorrectly.

Just to put it in perspective, if we were to scale down the .50 BMG (12.7x99mm NATO) round down so that it would be the same size for humans that the normal size is for Zentradi, we'd be looking at a .102 caliber (2.59mm) bullet. That's about two-thirds the size of an average BB gun pellet (4.34-4.39mm), and less than half the size of the plastic pellets used by Airsoft pistols (6mm). That's not going to be much of a threat to something as big of a Zentradi. Something that small would be a minor inconvenience... maybe give them a bloody lip or an insignificant flesh wound, but nothing life-threatening.

Edited February 24, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Uxi]

Could blind them, especially if they're going faster than 300fps. 12.7mm is a square peg for a round hole if the target is meant to be micron-sized "personnel" barring some magic OTM changing it's properties. Whoever made that decision doesn't know ground combat like Kawamori knows aviation.

[anime52k8]

Could blind them, especially if they're going faster than 300fps. 12.7mm is a square peg for a round hole if the target is meant to be micron-sized "personnel" barring some magic OTM changing it's properties. Whoever made that decision doesn't know ground combat like Kawamori knows aviation.

?

.50 BMG is a highly effective anti-personnel round. 7.62 is more common as both the round and the weapons that use them are lighter and cheaper, but when mounted on a vehicle the 50 is a much more versatile round. .50 BMG provides the ability to effectively engage infantry at longer ranges, even if they have body armor. it also allows you to engage through hard cover and is effective against unarmored vehicles.

If you're putting a gun on a robot for use against infantry, you might as well give it a 50 caliber so it can deal with everything from individual infantry all the way though vehicles carrying anti-tank rockets. although putting it on the head with no visible way to depress more than 20 degrees or so past horizontal is still stupid.

[miles316]

?

.50 BMG is a highly effective anti-personnel round. 7.62 is more common as both the round and the weapons that use them are lighter and cheaper, but when mounted on a vehicle the 50 is a much more versatile round. .50 BMG provides the ability to effectively engage infantry at longer ranges, even if they have body armor. it also allows you to engage through hard cover and is effective against unarmored vehicles.

If you're putting a gun on a robot for use against infantry, you might as well give it a 50 caliber so it can deal with everything from individual infantry all the way though vehicles carrying anti-tank rockets. although putting it on the head with no visible way to depress more than 20 degrees or so past horizontal is still stupid.

Wouldn't a 50 cal be relatively ineffective against a dismounted Zentradi Soldier, and they rarely fought dismounted.

[Uxi]

?

.50 BMG is a highly effective anti-personnel round. 7.62 is more common as both the round and the weapons that use them are lighter and cheaper, but when mounted on a vehicle the 50 is a much more versatile round. .50 BMG provides the ability to effectively engage infantry at longer ranges, even if they have body armor. it also allows you to engage through hard cover and is effective against unarmored vehicles.

What are you basing that claim on? I did 8 years as a tank commander and gunner in the USMC on the Abrams MBT. We have a M2HB .50 cal as the commanders weapon. It's a great weapon and one of my favorite as a tank commander, but the 2 x 7.62 M240 on the tank are far better suited for clusters of infantry and soft skinned vehicles (trucks, cars, etc). The .50 is versatile and certainly be used against infantry but that's not it's forte on almost any mount you see today or likely to be employed (especially if it's not on a stabilized mount), but it's qualities (mostly size and weight) don't make it as suitable for a primary anti-infantry weapon. The weapon choice, as well as the positioning and mounting don't seem conducive to anti-infantry employment but the additional range would certainly make it's positioning on the head a non-factor as the inconvenience in forcing the Tomahawk to do sweeping motions turning it's whole torso to engage micron infantry (analogous to moving the turret on a tank with a coaxial weapon). Anti-aircraft/anti-vehicle seems the most likely purpose to me. Any of the Tomahawks bigger weapons are likely to cause alot more collateral damage.

If you're putting a gun on a robot for use against infantry, you might as well give it a 50 caliber so it can deal with everything from individual infantry all the way though vehicles carrying anti-tank rockets. although putting it on the head with no visible way to depress more than 20 degrees or so past horizontal is still stupid.

I'm guessing anti-infantry is a secondary role in the same way that the machine guns on an MBT are capable of engaging aircraft. It's a possibility, especially in a confused combined arms environment that's had the fog of war descends on a chaotic situation in far from optimal conditions, but extremely unlikely to be used in most circumstances. IOW, the Destroids probably intend to use their own infantry.

What are standard infantry going to use against a Destroid anyway? Hand held rockets perhaps. Without more crew, weapons anywhere else on the Destroid would be difficult to control. I could see a remote controlled 7.62 on legs, crotch, or hips, being far more effective for primary infantry engagement. We saw the wheeled cannon vehicles in the 1st ep of Frontier, so those and their own micron infantry are likely the primary tool used against micron-sized opponents/vehicles.

[Seto Kaiba]

If you're putting a gun on a robot for use against infantry, you might as well give it a 50 caliber so it can deal with everything from individual infantry all the way though vehicles carrying anti-tank rockets. although putting it on the head with no visible way to depress more than 20 degrees or so past horizontal is still stupid.

Let's clarify... in the context of Macross, .50 BMG is a highly effective antipersonnel round when used against miclone infantry and light armored vehicles. It's pretty much a guarantee that it doesn't have enough stopping power to seriously inconvenience a Zentradi soldier wearing body armor, let alone a battle pod or powered armor suit. It makes precious little sense to put said machine guns up on the destroid's head if they're meant for use against miclone-scale targets and equipment. It's just a strange choice.

[Uxi]

10-11 more meters isn't that significant off of a .50 cal's range, really. Still, if I was designing the Tomahawk to be a replacement for a main battle tank while also being equipped to handle giant enemy infantry and the conjecture about their mecha... while at the same time being expected to take on other miclone sized enemies... I'd put a .50 on one side and a 7.62 on the other. The .50 will work but it's overkill on some applications and not nearly enough for the giants, of course.

[Graham]

Chemical LASERS will become obsolete with the introduction, of solid state Diode based LASERS were the only moving part is the optics in the Turret.

The ABL 747 may be the only working platform in the military using a chemical LASER most first gen Battle field LASERS will be Solid state.

I may be wrong, but my understanding is that with present day technolgy, solid state lasers are still only in the kilowatt range, where as chemical lasers are in the megawatt range.

Graham

[sketchley]

This talk about anti-personnel machineguns placed in the head being a bad place to put them makes me think that the Cheyenne and Cheyenne II (Aka Destroid) are much better designs; what with an anti-personnel machinegun in the groin. Heck, the Octos also has a groin (or at least ground facing) gun.

[miles316]

I may be wrong, but my understanding is that with present day technolgy, solid state lasers are still only in the kilowatt range, where as chemical lasers are in the megawatt range.

Graham

The Versatility of the Diode LASER out weighs the power limitation of individual LASER diodes were as Chemical lasers Can only fire a few times during a mission because they use onboard chemicals for the reaction. Laser diodes can be used over and over and Multiple LASER Diodes can be combined to give higher energy levels reducing the strain on individual Diodes.

No Mater how Small you make the Laser components a Chemical LASER will always require a Set of large tanks to hold the reactants and will never be used in fighter aircraft I believe the Air Force recently decided not to buy any of the Air Born LASER/747 even after successfully shooting down a missile mover the Pacific Ocean.

[aquilon]

Um... you've scaled your comparison incorrectly.

Just to put it in perspective, if we were to scale down the .50 BMG (12.7x99mm NATO) round down so that it would be the same size for humans that the normal size is for Zentradi, we'd be looking at a .102 caliber (2.59mm) bullet. That's about two-thirds the size of an average BB gun pellet (4.34-4.39mm), and less than half the size of the plastic pellets used by Airsoft pistols (6mm). That's not going to be much of a threat to something as big of a Zentradi. Something that small would be a minor inconvenience... maybe give them a bloody lip or an insignificant flesh wound, but nothing life-threatening.

You're right - my scale is off. Nonetheless, my analogy stands scalewise: a sewing needle is easily less than .10" and a bunch of them weighing 115gr (typical 50BMG is +/-700gr and 115gr is a common bullet weight used in 9mm handguns) traveling at 400-500 FPS (typical 50BMG travels at +/-2700 FPS) hitting my face would give me quite a bit more than an insignificant bloody lip.

Edited February 26, 2010 by aquilon

[Seto Kaiba]

You're right - my scale is off. Nonetheless, my analogy stands scalewise: a sewing needle is easily less than .10" and a bunch of them weighing 115gr (typical 50BMG is +/-700gr and 115gr is a common bullet weight used in 9mm handguns) traveling at 400-500 FPS (typical 50BMG travels at +/-2700 FPS) hitting my face would give me quite a bit more than an insignificant bloody lip.

Okay, granted... it might be enough to inconvenience or annoy an unarmored Zentradi soldier, but the average Zentradi soldier takes the the field wearing a suit of body armor, and is usually located somewhere within a combat mecha made from overtechnology-derived super alloys and armored with energy converting armor. Let's also remind ourselves that Zentradi are made of somewhat sterner stuff than your average human being... the Zentradi soldier Hikaru shoots up in "Countdown" was still perfectly capable of getting out of his Regult and trying to continue the fight on foot after being hit something like a dozen times, including four times in the torso (once right below the heart), in the left shin, right ankle, both thighs, and left wrist with what (to scale) would be about a .44 caliber (~11mm) bullet.

[aquilon]

Okay, granted... it might be enough to inconvenience or annoy an unarmored Zentradi soldier, but the average Zentradi soldier takes the the field wearing a suit of body armor, and is usually located somewhere within a combat mecha made from overtechnology-derived super alloys and armored with energy converting armor. Let's also remind ourselves that Zentradi are made of somewhat sterner stuff than your average human being... the Zentradi soldier Hikaru shoots up in "Countdown" was still perfectly capable of getting out of his Regult and trying to continue the fight on foot after being hit something like a dozen times, including four times in the torso (once right below the heart), in the left shin, right ankle, both thighs, and left wrist with what (to scale) would be about a .44 caliber (~11mm) bullet.

Can't argue with you there since we have no way of empirically testing this. My whole point is having 50BMG's shooting a Zen in the face may not be such a bad idea since, in a combat setting, being distracted may be the advantage a Tommie needs to kill the Zen.

Edited February 26, 2010 by aquilon

[Seto Kaiba]

Can't argue with you there since we have no way of empirically testing this. My whole point is having 50BMG's shooting a Zen in the face may not be such a bad idea since, in a combat setting, being distracted may be the advantage a Tommie needs to kill the Zen.

Well, either way... it's still rather unlikely that the 12.7mm antipersonnel machine guns mounted on the Tomahawk's head were intended for anti-Zentradi use. The Tomahawk is, after all, somewhat taller than your average Zentradi, which would have the 12.7mm guns shooting over the target's head unless the Tomahawk leaned forward or was firing at a target at a far off target. The gun clusters located in the Tomahawk's chest are much more logically placed for engaging both Zentran and miclone scale infantry, since the flamethrower and grenade launcher would be just as effective against infantry as the machineguns would be, and don't require you to point the barrel directly at the target, and the heavier machine gun and laser cannon would be much more effective against hard-armored Zentradi targets.

[aquilon]

Well, either way... it's still rather unlikely that the 12.7mm antipersonnel machine guns mounted on the Tomahawk's head were intended for anti-Zentradi use. The Tomahawk is, after all, somewhat taller than your average Zentradi, which would have the 12.7mm guns shooting over the target's head unless the Tomahawk leaned forward or was firing at a target at a far off target. The gun clusters located in the Tomahawk's chest are much more logically placed for engaging both Zentran and miclone scale infantry, since the flamethrower and grenade launcher would be just as effective against infantry as the machineguns would be, and don't require you to point the barrel directly at the target, and the heavier machine gun and laser cannon would be much more effective against hard-armored Zentradi targets.

Probably the real reason they're there is the designer thought it looked cool and added them; I would've put them on a turret myself.

Edited February 26, 2010 by aquilon

[Seto Kaiba]

Probably the real reason they're there is the designer thought it looked cool and added them; I would've put them on a turret myself.

Either that or, as was mentioned earlier, they're a homage to the head-mounted 60mm vulcan guns on the RX-78-2 and RGM-79 in Mobile Suit Gundam.

[Einherjar]

I like the design for the Defender EX in Macross II. The arm (laser?) cannons look menacing. And from the description from Mr. March's site they're fast too because of rollers.

Oh, so that's where they got the idea for the Destroids with wheels.

Edited February 28, 2010 by Einherjar

[Robelwell202]

Either that or, as was mentioned earlier, they're a homage to the head-mounted 60mm vulcan guns on the RX-78-2 and RGM-79 in Mobile Suit Gundam.

I've always held the idea that the Tomahawk was a general-purpose attack mecha.

First, from what information I've been able to gather, the MBR-04 Mk.6 was, essentially, the first mecha slated for mass production, since the VF-series fighters were taking longer to develop. In addition, it's been stated many times that the powers-that-be weren't exactly sure WHAT they'd be fighting when the Macross was rebuilt, but they got the general idea that the adversaries in question would be big... damn big. With that in mind, I go on to the next point.

Second, the assortment of weapons deployed on the Tomahawk appear to be a collection intended to serve in many roles. Now, keeping in mind that the hypothetical enemy threat wsn't very well defined, it would make sense to slap as many different guns on a platform as they could. I mean, in a real-world example could be drawn from the M1 Abrams, which sports several machine guns, in addition to the 120mm Main gun.

That's just my take on it, though. The MGs may have been worthless, but then again, we'd do well to think that a Tomahawk or two could quell a food riot quite easily.

[taksraven]

That's just my take on it, though. The MGs may have been worthless, but then again, we'd do well to think that a Tomahawk or two could quell a food riot quite easily.

SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!!!!!

Taksraven