Destroids...

[Cyclone Trooper]

I know I'm just full of questions these past few weeks about various aspects of Macross, but it's not just to boost my post count, I swear!

My latest pondering comes from one of the early scenes in Macross F when the "Firefighter Destroids" are putting out the fires around the interior of Frontier's City Island. In the years following Space War I, it seems like the Destroids fell out of use as direct combat units for some reason...then for a period, fell into complete disuse altogether. Frontier's relatively small Destroid mecha compliment consists of the very generic-looking Cheyenne Mk II, which is a direct descendant of the equally generic-looking Cheyenne Mk I from Macross Zero. The Tomahawk, Spartan, Phalanx or Defender (or any kind of upgraded versions) are all gone and the Konig Monster isn't even technically considered a Destroid at this point...just a REALLY big Valkyrie. Were Destroids considered too destructive for close-in urban combat, should it erupt inside colonization ships? Or were ground-based mecha simply not agile enough to effectively fight against enemy units? Did Kawamori simply not show much interest in these mecha in the years after SDFM and DYRL...showering all his love and energy into Valkyrie designs instead?

While Frontier does have Destroids, they seem to be relegated to tertiary roles that were lower down the ladder than where the original Destroids occupied. Just wondering why these awesome mecha have been overlooked for so many years...

Edited October 4, 2009 by Cyclone Trooper

[Roy Focker]

Cause they're Primary Function is to stand in the background fire at some fast moving enemy mecha in vain and then get destroyed like the cannon fodder.

Look at the Defender and Phalanx both just have one weapon. No back up guns or swinging arms. The Monster, Tomahawk & Spartan have a few more weapon option but they are pretty much all Destroids stuck to fighting on the ground. Destroid do look cool but You can take a VF anywhere and they have several weapons to pick from.

[thegunny]

They suck (and that was to get my post count up )

No hero uses one so they won't get any luv.

[DestroidDefender]

It is rather disappointing to me that the Destroids have not been featured more in Macross, but then again SK is all about the VFs - he didn't do the Destroids. Most of the M:SDF era Destroids were designed by Kazutaka Miyatake.

[sketchley]

In the years following Space War I, it seems like the Destroids fell out of use as direct combat units for some reason...then for a period, fell into complete disuse altogether. Frontier's relatively small Destroid mecha compliment consists of the very generic-looking Cheyenne Mk II, which is a direct descendant of the equally generic-looking Cheyenne Mk I from Macross Zero. The Tomahawk, Spartan, Phalanx or Defender (or any kind of upgraded versions) are all gone.

Who said they're gone or completely unused? Invariably, the newer productions focus on new designs because it's one way to hook viewers into a new series, as well as a way to get sponsors, as those sponsors will be able to sell a bunch more books/toys/models/whatever.

In universe, we have to keep in mind that what we are shown is only one facet of the armed forces in Macross. The destroids are primarily used by the UN Army. When was a Macross anime ever focused on that branch? Let alone the UN Navy or UN Marines? It's been primarily UN Spacy and UN Airforce - both of which primarily use Variable Vehicles.

Destroids have shown up in the 2040s in Macross Plus, Macross Plus Game Edition, and Macross 7 (mostly converted into construction units, but present in the fleet none-the-less). They've also shown up in the 50s in VF-X2. The one consistant is that the designs haven't been changed nor improved upon. Therefore, it's easy to come to the conclusion that the Destroids are the pinnacle of ground walking mobile artillery units, and there's been no need to fix what isn't broken in the limited uses that they are applied to.

The Destroid (aka Cheyenne II, but officially as Destroid) that appears in MF is specifically for anti-air purposes, and is also designed to move around the city - aka civil defense work; but in concert with the Beatrice (see: http://www.macrossroleplay.org/forums/index.php?topic=2151.0 )

The "toning down" of it's uber destructive abilities is in line with the reasoning that Destroids, in general, are too destructive for close-in urban combat. Nevertheless, until we see a large land-invasion sequence in Macross, I doubt we'll see much more on the destroids.

and the Konig Monster isn't even technically considered a Destroid at this point...just a REALLY big Valkyrie.

fallacy correction:

HWR-00-MkII Monster is the Destroid. VB-6 König Monster is the Variable Vehicle.

For more information on the variable vehicle, see: http://www.macrossroleplay.org/forums/index.php?topic=2344.0

[RDClip]

Macross Zero had a few non VF mechas (the awesome carrier desteroid) but desteroids have proven pretty useless against a fast VF. And considering that valkyries can provide the same duties as a desteroid via armored and GBP system why bother with them.

[Seto Kaiba]

Were Destroids considered too destructive for close-in urban combat, should it erupt inside colonization ships? Or were ground-based mecha simply not agile enough to effectively fight against enemy units? Did Kawamori simply not show much interest in these mecha in the years after SDFM and DYRL...showering all his love and energy into Valkyrie designs instead?

For the most part, the original destroids were glorified anti-aircraft guns, so it's no surprise that they haven't really bothered doing much with them since. The only Macross show that really bothered with showing more destroids was Macross II, and those destroids were, like their predecessors, essentially glorified anti-aircraft guns permanently assigned to point defense on ships, or anti-air defense on the ground.

No hero uses one so they won't get any luv.

Didn't Hikaru briefly use a Spartan?

[Vepariga]

No hero uses one so they won't get any luv.

hikaru used one to fend of renegade zents once, and the monster in frontier did some solid work to secure victories.

[RedWolf]

Well Destroids are either are in the hands of UN Forces as weapons or test drones, rebel forces, or in a personal collection somewhere.

On another note who knew these things and VF-1 were part of the pension plan?

[Vepariga]

Well Destroids are either are in the hands of UN Forces as weapons or test drones, rebel forces, or in a personal collection somewhere.

On another note who knew these things and VF-1 were part of the pension plan?

thats a cool pic,also shows another good use for destroids,they make Excellent 'Open Day' exhibits

[Killer Robot]

If you want to come up with some justification for it, in SDFM the main reason to make more destroids than Valkyries was cost - and then they turned out to be less valuable than Valkyries because of how much combat turned out to be air/space based due to the nature of the war. Combine that lesson with increased focus on space fleet defense in the era of human expansion through the galaxy, possibly with VF costs dropping faster than destroid costs, and with the sort of focus on fighters that's sometimes remarked on/complained about with the real world military? It just stands to reason that destroids would get no love from the UNS/NUNS/etc. We might see more when it comes to defending planet-based installations or something, but we really haven't seen that in animation since that time with Hikaru.

[RedWolf]

If Macross Frontier has shown us anything new Destroid technology depends on who is paying for them. Frontier is a wealthy fleet which is also in the cutting edge of VF development.

Macross 7 has Patroids while not military their function takes the role of the Destroid in the urban setting. Destroids are relagated as museum pieces. (except those Monster II retirees having live rounds )

On the black market side they are not merely selling used Destroids.

Gjagravan-Va

[sketchley]

On the black market side they are not merely selling used Destroids.

Gjagravan-Va

Psst: the Gjagravan-Va isn't a Destroid.

[RedWolf]

Psst: the Gjagravan-Va isn't a Destroid.

Still a ground mecha though.

Fills the same ground artillery function. Which brings the question is the Octos a destroid? Despite it being a variable sub.

[hutch]

I always thought it was because they proved to be fairly ineffectual against the first threat we faced in the Zentradi...at least it always seemed to me they were a lot less useful than the Valks...

[VFTF1]

Yeah.

I imagine Destroids were a relic from the Unification wars, where they probably were very useful. With no giant aliens to fight against, and pretty much no valkyrie active in the Unification wars, Destroids were likely developed to basically be a combination of tank/artilery/anti-aircraft and missile silo all rolled up in one with legs. Given that the war was global, I imagine that the mobility a destroid enjoyed also made it a prefered weapon of choice. Finally, it was likely very effective in urban combat since I would imagine that for all the precision targeting of calling in an airstrike - it's even better if a platoon has a destroid assigned to them that's in the thick of things and can target fire even more accurately and provide back up and armored support.

Destroids also probably helped scare people into submission and were an effective tool used by the UN government to get their way. Notice how many Destroids were gaurding Alaska base when Misa flew in...

But yeah - later, with space colonization etc etc - they really stopped being all that important.

Pete

[Zinjo]

I agree with Sketchley on this one.

The only stellar naval force that could make use of destroids are the UN Marines, since they'd incorporate air and ground forces. Colony worlds probably possess them for ground defence in their army and marine units.

Though, I have no doubt they've evolved into vehicles with much more well rounded primary and secondary weaponry as opposed to the SDFM era destroids which seemed to fall into various specialized categories. Macross the First shows a better mix of ground force weaponry as opposed to the show.

[sketchley]

And there has been some upgrades during the years. http://www.geocities.com/snipersoldier3000...04_maverick.htm has an image created by Miyatake Mazutaka for one of the Macross games. (Forgot which one, and I'm not 100% that Maverick is the correct name for it.)

[BChoinski]

Perhaps I'm misremembering, but weren't a herd of destroids used in ep 25 with the Quarter's macross attack?

[RedWolf]

Perhaps I'm misremembering, but weren't a herd of destroids used in ep 25 with the Quarter's macross attack?

Cheyene II

[Ghost Train]

Destroids are relegated to 3rd and 4th tier because Harmony Gold owns the US distribution rights to all destroids, mechs, robots, french toast, and Daschunds.

[aquilon]

Destroids: the Macross equivalent of the Star Trek red shirts.....

I've always found it funny how vulnerable Destroids are to enemy fire (i.e. one hit and they're toast) when they're the equivalent of current day armor and a Valkyrie can take multiple hits and keep flying and fighting. I know I'm in the minority here but I think a Macross character that's a Destroid pilot would be interesting as it would bring a different (ground pounder) perspective to Macross as opposed to the typical flyboy and girl attitudes.

And don't discount AA capabilities: in Vietnam, the majority of American warplanes were shot down by NVA SAM's and AAA. In fact, that's why the Wild Weasel program was created.

Edited October 5, 2009 by aquilon

[thankheaven]

The Destroids do look cool, but i don't really see what advantage a Destroid would have over a tank.

The Destroid is slow and not very agile and is a huge target for the enemy to gun down.

A fast tank designed with overtech would probably do the job just as good if not better.

[RedWolf]

Destroids: the Macross equivalent of the Star Trek red shirts.....

Nah I believe that belongs to VF-11C and VF-171 pilots.

Slow yeah they are. But in another mech genre, Battletech, they made ground based Mechs tougher than fighters.

[ChronoReverse]

Destroids probably are still tougher than battroids in the Macross universe. The real problem is that the weaponry in Macross seem to far outstrip the armour. Because of that, agility and the ability to dodge becomes much more important that heavy armor.

[SchizophrenicMC]

As has been said before, sometimes weapons come before agility.

Destroids, being ground-bound anyway, can be made even heavier and larger to carry more weapons. I mean, I consider them to be walking artillery squads.

Later on, though, VFs were created with better weapons capacities. The VF-25 is a perfect example of this. Armored Packs have more missiles than I can count. And thanks to the boosters they implement, the craft is capable of the same acceleration as an un-augmented VF-25.

However, even this isn't enough. The VB-6 Koenig Monster is a super-heavy Variable Bomber, designed to take the incredibly powerful, though slow and unwieldy, HWR-00 Mk. II Monster and make it up to par with current Variable Fighters. It's much faster and more capable a machine than its predecessor and it can take advantage of all sorts of things that even a VF can't, namely superior size. They're freakin' huge. Bigger in Battroid mode, too. Even Red Vajra are dwarfed, to put it in perspective.

Though, it's not very good at air-to-air, or even S-A combat, so smaller destroids like the Cheyenne are placed on ships to act as moveable anti-air turrets.

Most destroids aren't needed anymore. Just the superheavies and the ultralights.

[Zinjo]

Destroids are relegated to 3rd and 4th tier because Harmony Gold owns the US distribution rights to all destroids, mechs, robots, french toast, and Daschunds.

No they don't.

They own distribution rights to the SDFM animation and subsequent merchandizing rights to said animation. All the Macross mecha, characters and story belong to the rightful Intellectual Property rights owner, Big West and Studio Nue.

Seto covers the issue in depth on an RT forum:

http://www.robotechx.com/forums/51-canon-f...oss-rights.html

The MW thread on the same subject is here:

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=153

Don't be fooled by misleading statements made by RT fans or HG staff...

[Gubaba]

No they don't.

They own distribution rights to the SDFM animation and subsequent merchandizing rights to said animation. All the Macross mecha, characters and story belong to the rightful Intellectual Property rights owner, Big West and Studio Nue.

Seto covers the issue in depth on an RT forum:

http://www.robotechx.com/forums/51-canon-f...oss-rights.html

The MW thread on the same subject is here:

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=153

Don't be fooled by misleading statements made by RT fans or HG staff...

Well, that covers the mecha...but what about the french toast and the Dachshunds...?

[SchizophrenicMC]

Well, that covers the mecha...but what about the french toast and the Dachshunds...?

They own the Dachsunds, but I'm fairly certain the French Toast belongs to and can only be legally distributed by Pierre.

[Zinjo]

They own the Dachsunds, but I'm fairly certain the French Toast belongs to and can only be legally distributed by Pierre.

What he said...

[Renegade Zentradi]

Macross wouldn't be Macross with out the Variable Fighter front and center....but I always thought it'd be cool if they did a Macross spinoff that use the Destroids as the main mecha...

[bullet101]

Because if it had Destroids centre stage, it would be Gundam by another name.

[aquilon]

Not sure a Macross where the Destroids are center stage would work but if a character was a Destroid pilot - maybe the best friend of the hot-shot VF pilot? - and be involved in the requisite Macross love triangle, that could create some interesting tensions (not only in the love triangle but also the different battle perspectives of the two pilots).

Edited October 6, 2009 by aquilon

[RDClip]

Desteroids in Macross are always presented as boring cannon fodder. the only time they accomplished anything is when there is 200 of them in the bow of the daedelus. Seems to me Kawamori doesn't really seem interested in desteroids at all. Miyatake designed all the original desteroids and i dunno if he is still involved in the macross franchise.

Frankly if you want to see ground based mechas, there are many hundreds of anime about them. Macross is about planes.

[Prime]

Seems to me Kawamori doesn't really seem interested in desteroids at all.

He knows where his bread is buttered.

I always took it that the Destroids worked just fine and had more armour than a Valkyrie. the problem was they were piloted by nobodies and got destroyed because the plot demanded it. They are essentially the same as the cannon fodder VF-1As...