Macross Frontier Movie 1,YES it is subbed now edition

[Ivan]

OK, this thread is getting a lttle off topic.

Let's get back to discussion of the Frontier movie please.

We have a licensing discussion thread, so please take talk about the licensing dispute there please.

Graham

Graham, just wondering how you plan to see the Frontier movie in Hong Kong. An official theatrical release would be nice (the second Evangelion movie is playing now), but I doubt it will happen since Frontier is not as popular as Evangelion.

[Skullsixx]

I'll take either, but if I have to wait hopefully it's not too long!!!

[Graham]

Graham, just wondering how you plan to see the Frontier movie in Hong Kong. An official theatrical release would be nice (the second Evangelion movie is playing now), but I doubt it will happen since Frontier is not as popular as Evangelion.

I'll buy the official R2 DVD when it's released and of course download the fansub when available. But yeah, if it showed at the cinema here, I'd see it.

[Repiv_Onex]

Graham, just wondering how you plan to see the Frontier movie in Hong Kong. An official theatrical release would be nice (the second Evangelion movie is playing now), but I doubt it will happen since Frontier is not as popular as Evangelion.

Correct me if I'm wrong. The MF movie doesn't have subtitles, that's y ppl were discussing abt the chances of getting subbed BR/DVD, and foreign language movies w/o sub won't be showing in local cinema.

I would love to see it in sg too.

[sketchley]

Correct me if I'm wrong. The MF movie doesn't have subtitles, that's y ppl were discussing abt the chances of getting subbed BR/DVD, and foreign language movies w/o sub won't be showing in local cinema.

I would love to see it in sg too.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a movie being released in Hong Kong have Chinese subtitles?

[Ivan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a movie being released in Hong Kong have Chinese subtitles?

That's correct! Unless they are dubbed in Chinese, all foreign films released in Hong Kong do have Chinese subtitles. That's the case with the second Evangelion film being shown right now.

[Repiv_Onex]

That's correct! Unless they are dubbed in Chinese, all foreign films released in Hong Kong do have Chinese subtitles. That's the case with the second Evangelion film being shown right now.

Oic, I always thought all movies create the subs themselves. Now I know the subs are created by the individual countries.

[Renato]

OK, I just watched this movie last night.

I thought about typing this up in "Chester A. Bum" style from Thatguywiththeglasses.com, like "OH MY GOD, THIS IS THE GREATEST MOVIE I'VE EVER SEEN IN MY LIFE!! There's this GUY, and she's called Alto.. wait.. there's this girl, and he's.... no, hang on.... anyway, ROBOTS and SPACE MONSTERS!! The best part was when the white robot defeats THE FALLEN!!!" etc...

But I guess I'll just type normally.

First, I will give my overall impressions, then I will wrap specific stuff in spoiler tags.

OK, I will start off with my verdict, so the busier ones among you don't have to bother reading however long this post turns out to be.

This is a fairly good popcorn flick. That said, this is not a good Macross movie.

When the movie started, I actually felt exactly what I wanted to feel when I decided to come and see this movie, which was witnessing the Macross Frontier ships in all their glorius detail on the big screen. So I was pleased that I wasn't let down in that respect.

The problem is that even though they say that 70% is new footage, 100% is old story. You know everything that is going to happen. I don't remember feeling this way with DYRL, but I guess DYRL was different enough what with the added Protoculture ruins angle, and the song being a relic of the people of the island thousands of years ago.

Anyway, the first 20 minutes or so were great (even if I spotted what looked like an animation error in the first two minutes of the film). It looks like they put a hell of a lot of work on the CG for Sheryl's concert. Also, look out, it's

lesbianism

time! And the new low angles from which the Valkyries are filmed really give an impression of the scale.

Then the movie slows to snail's pace as nothing really happens for an entire hour, if you have seen the TV show. If you haven't, you will likely have no idea what is going on anyway.

As you can imagine, I spent the most part of the movie wishing I was watching DYRL, or Plus, or even The Galaxy is Calling Me. In fact, "Up" was playing in the next screen, and I felt I'd made the wrong choice.

Maybe it's hard to judge the film on its own because it is just part one of two, but really, as a watered-down version of an already vapid (mostly in terms of characters) TV series, there really is no substance left to work with. They cut out all the filler and now you're just left with the bare bones, which is really just mediocrity.

Oh, and Family Mart product placement.

Erm.. There's nothing else I can say! The final battle was done alright, I guess. I just felt like, yeah, seen it all before.

OK, I'm gonna talk about specific points now.

Who is this film made for? There's little explanation of the difference between UN Spacy and SMS.

In fact, I'll bet that the VF-171's being dispatched at the start of the first battle can be confused as being part of Sheryl's stage show by those who haven't seen the series. Even at the end, when Battle Frontier and the Quarter show up, anyone who doesn't know the show might think they are one and the same robot, since I don't recall seeing them both in the same shot.

Character-emotion plot threads (those simple "eventually comes to fruition" devices like the "no sacrifice, no victory" thing in the Michael Bay Transformers movie) are few and far between, in fact, I could only count one -- Sheryl's "don't leave me alone!" in flashback, later answered by Alto: "You're never alone" and "Thanks for not leaving me alone" uttered by Sheryl at the end of the movie. That's pretty weak. Alto begins the movie saying he dreams of flying in a real sky, he says that he ran away from Kabuki because he was afraid by living as an actor his existence as Saotome Alto would disappear, yada yada.... None of these things are addressed at the end.

Things that will please some and annoy some here:

There is no Nanase in the movie.

There is plenty of Grace fan service.

There is an Alto shower scene.

There are no scenes in the school, except for the EX-gear flying thing at the beginning.

Bilrer is not in the movie.

The main baddie is basically the Fallen, seeking his "revenge". By being in another bad robot movie, I assume.

Everyone has a segway??

I don't remember seeing the VF-25F in Battroid until a few seconds at the very end.

Frontier has an Akihabara district... OK..

Battle Frontier AGAIN transforms off-screen.

Megumi Nakajima's voice. What the HELL happened. She sounds like every other annoying anime girl character now. I prefer her when she still didn't know how to act properly, she sounded much more convincing and human. Same with Mari Iijima -- they fact that she wasn't a voice actress gave her an edge, and that is why Minmay's lines feel natural. I had heard Nakajima say that if she had to re-record the same lines from the first episode they would sound completely different now, but I never expected this.

The scene which interested me most in the movie was when Alto put on Sheryl's earring and apparently sees visions of Sheryl's past and whatnot. Of course, this is never explained nor even questioned again.

Lastly, the whole thing about Sheryl being a Galaxy spy was a huge, way, way, over-hyped thing. The plot point was introduced halfway through the film (although hinted at slightly in Grace's conversation with Sheryl in the opening scene, when she mentioned the "target" they were after) and resolved in a matter of 15 minutes or so.

Sigh. Overall, this movie just goes to prove how much filler was originally in the TV show, and what happens when that is taken away -- there was really no originality in the show to begin with. I walked away thinking that since they made a Pachinko game of SDF Mac with amazing cel-like CG, that Macross 7 needed an overhaul like that, and that it would be awesome to see that on the big screen.

[Renato]

This:

"The main baddie is basically the Fallen, seeking his "revenge". By being in another bad robot movie, I assume."

was a little unclear. I mean, the main leader Vajra design looks like the Fallen from the Transformer movie, after "giving his face" to Prime. The revenge thing is just a joke, there is no such concept attached to the "character" in the Frontier movie (actually there is no context nor explanation for this character at all). Come to think of it, it's not a concept present in the Transformer movie, either. Oh well.

I miss the days of tight scripting and natural plot development, like in Back to the Future....

Edited December 7, 2009 by Renato

[Vepariga]

Thanks for that review Renato, pretty much what i was expecting,shame tho, I guess we will have to see what Part 2 has to offer.

[magnuskn]

Well, that is a hell of a negative review, quite different from what everyone else was saying. I guess we'll have to see, but if I read Macross Frontier hilariously described as a "already vapid (mostly in terms of characters) TV series" from a Macross 7 fan, I know I can expect heavy bias against the movie.

[Renato]

Who is "everyone else"? Sorry, I tried to avoid most of this thread, so I will go back and check, but so far I've only read Save's review and as with TF2:ROTF (the majority loved that film too, by the way, but I thought it was a stinking pile), I agree on most of his points.

I deleted the line "This is just my opinion.." from my original post before I submitted it, maybe I should have left it in, I just thought it was redundant.

Just to justify it, though...

I'm very much of the opinion that Macross 7 is all about the characters and their interactions, and so it was really unfortunate that the battle scenes left so much to be desired in that show.

With both Frontier TV and Movie, the situation is reversed. If you like mecha action at the expense of interesting characters/story, this is your movie. I know which I'd rather have. DYRL is still the perfect Macross movie in this respect. Sukehiro Tomita did a good job.

I'd like to also point out that I did not go in with high expectations because I thought the TV show was OK at best and was not actually going to watch this film. As of last weekend the late showings were priced at Y1200 so I thought "might as well go for it". Also, as I said, I liked the depictions of the Macross Islands and the background artwork (like the forest scenes, etc). That was worth seeing on the big screen. That was really all I wanted from this film. Thus it wasn't as if I was crushed, nor do I think I need to rave or vent about it. It's just an OK movie. It's definitely "Macross Frontier: The Movie". I'm sure those of you who enjoyed the series will enjoy the movie, so rest assured, you guys are in for a treat.

[magnuskn]

Who is "everyone else"? Sorry, I tried to avoid most of this thread, so I will go back and check, but so far I've only read Save's review and as with TF2:ROTF (the majority loved that film too, by the way, but I thought it was a stinking pile), I agree on most of his points.

I deleted the line "This is just my opinion.." from my original post before I submitted it, maybe I should have left it in, I just thought it was redundant.

Just to justify it, though...

I'm very much of the opinion that Macross 7 is all about the characters and their interactions, and so it was really unfortunate that the battle scenes left so much to be desired in that show.

With both Frontier TV and Movie, the situation is reversed. If you like mecha action at the expense of interesting characters/story, this is your movie. I know which I'd rather have. DYRL is still the perfect Macross movie in this respect. Sukehiro Tomita did a good job.

I'd like to also point out that I did not go in with high expectations because I thought the TV show was OK at best and was not actually going to watch this film. As of last weekend the late showings were priced at Y1200 so I thought "might as well go for it". Also, as I said, I liked the depictions of the Macross Islands and the background artwork (like the forest scenes, etc). That was worth seeing on the big screen. That was really all I wanted from this film. Thus it wasn't as if I was crushed, nor do I think I need to rave or vent about it. It's just an OK movie. It's definitely "Macross Frontier: The Movie". I'm sure those of you who enjoyed the series will enjoy the movie, so rest assured, you guys are in for a treat.

About every review of the movie I've read prior to yours has been positive ( not glowingly so, but everybody enjoyed the movie ), so yours really stood out.

I personally disagree about Frontier having less developed characters than Macross 7, but I am no big fan of M7, due to the vapidness of Mylene and arrogance of Basara. And other stuff, but let's not get into that.

As I haven't seen the Frontier movie I am not qualified to make statements about how good its character development was, but I think that two of the three mains in Frontier were were well realized. Ranka was a big mess, but I think its still debatable about how much on purpose the fail of her character arc was.

[Renato]

About every review of the movie I've read prior to yours has been positive ( not glowingly so, but everybody enjoyed the movie ), so yours really stood out.

OK, I will try to find some. I didn't hate the movie, I just kept looking at my watch, thinking what else I have to do this week, etc. It didn't really suck me in at all.

I personally disagree about Frontier having less developed characters than Macross 7, but I am no big fan of M7, due to the vapidness of Mylene and arrogance of Basara. And other stuff, but let's not get into that.

We need people like you on the "MW watches M7 together" thread. Some are seeing the show in a new light when we actually analyze it one episode at a time. You might enjoy it (at least the discussion).

As I haven't seen the Frontier movie I am not qualified to make statements about how good its character development was, but I think that two of the three mains in Frontier were were well realized. Ranka was a big mess, but I think its still debatable about how much on purpose the fail of her character arc was.

I honestly cannot remember very well, but I certainly felt Alto was the weakest lead in possibly any show I've seen. And I'm not alone: In the latest Macross Ace, Kawamori admitted that was a common complaint from the fans, and so has tried to fix that for the movie.

If the little 2-minute whiny monologue from Alto I described above was the best attempt to rectify this (because I see no other indications), then I conclude that that is just either a clear lack of effort, or just proof that the concept behind the character was lackluster to begin with.

[magnuskn]

We need people like you on the "MW watches M7 together" thread. Some are seeing the show in a new light when we actually analyze it one episode at a time. You might enjoy it (at least the discussion).

I might pass by when I find the time.

I honestly cannot remember very well, but I certainly felt Alto was the weakest lead in possibly any show I've seen. And I'm not alone: In the latest Macross Ace, Kawamori admitted that was a common complaint from the fans, and so has tried to fix that for the movie.

If the little 2-minute whiny monologue from Alto I described above was the best attempt to rectify this (because I see no other indications), then I conclude that that is just either a clear lack of effort, or just proof that the concept behind the character was lackluster to begin with.

Which is where I fundamentally disagree. I had some big discussions about this over on Animesuki, because I think Alto is a very good protagonist, compared to many other mains in mechas shows of the last years. Yeah, so he isn't flashy about his feelings, but he has some real depth. Not every protagonist needs a emotional breakdown to go ahead in their character development... Alto did it quietly and efficiently.

[Seto Kaiba]

I guess we'll have to see, but if I read Macross Frontier hilariously described as a "already vapid (mostly in terms of characters) TV series" from a Macross 7 fan, I know I can expect heavy bias against the movie.

Yeah, Renato's review was rather a lot of unexpected vitriol directed at a movie that has thus far been getting favorable, though not exactly glowing, reviews from most viewers. Haven't seen it myself, but a few friends of mine overseas have, and they said it wasn't mind-blowing, but that it was at least pretty good... mind you they're not big Macross fans, so they're viewing it as more-or-less objective outsiders.

Wishing no offense to Renato, when I see a pronouncement like this:

I honestly cannot remember very well, but I certainly felt Alto was the weakest lead in possibly any show I've seen.

followed by a pronouncement like this:

I'm very much of the opinion that Macross 7 is all about the characters and their interactions

coming from a Macross 7 fan with a Fire Bomber avatar, I know what I'm about to read is coming from someone whose tastes are completely alien to me, and that I can probably expect it to be heavily biased. I'm reserving judgment on the movie until I see it for myself (it'll be a while, unless the business trip fairy leaves another all-expenses-paid trip under my pillow next year), but I'm cautiously optimistic given what I've seen of the designs for the movie and what I've heard from friends over in Japan who've gone to see it. This one vehemently negative review doesn't so much make me question the other reviewers as much as it leaves me wondering if he had a really bad day before he went to the theater, or if he went in there determined to find something wrong with it.

I think Alto is a very good protagonist, compared to many other mains in mechas shows of the last years. Yeah, so he isn't flashy about his feelings, but he has some real depth. Not every protagonist needs a emotional breakdown to go ahead in their character development... Alto did it quietly and efficiently.

I agree wholeheartedly... when I watched Macross 7 for the first time it very nearly killed Macross for me. I would disagree with Renato's assertion that the show's all about characters and their interactions. My assessment was that it was much more about the lack of normal social interaction between Basara and the other characters as they try, largely in vain, to hammer simple concepts through his malformed three-inch-thick skull. I felt the vast majority of the Macross 7 characters had less depth than a common tablespoon, so naturally I found the main cast of Macross Frontier (except Ranka) to be a vast improvement on their predecessors. Alto broke a lot of the common tropes for teenage boy robot pilots when he actually decided to man up instead of having a breakdown and whining for half of the show. In a more-or-less complete reversal from Macross 7, there was only one character I DIDN'T have a use for, and that was Ranka... who I felt was only in the show so the much better written and much more likable Sheryl would have a rival and they could inject a bit of additional moe into the series.

The more the movie marginalizes Ranka, the happier I'll be. It sounds (at least from the reviews I've read so far) like they tried to do an almost entirely character-driven movie and largely leave out the giant fighting robots but found that they had too much material and not enough time to work with, and that's kind of disappointing. I know they had pacing issues near the end of Frontier, but I had hoped they'd manage their time a bit more effectively with the movie.

Edited December 7, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[Save]

This is a fairly good popcorn flick. That said, this is not a good Macross movie.

Yep it is basically a Jump X Macross movie, but better. It is no DYRL but it beats the heck out of a Female Zent guitarist and Basara performing dueling banjos head on in the snow. The Plus movie isn't even a Movie it is just a total re-edit with no more than 3 min (give or take) of additional footage, but great footage I will say. So that being said Frontier is a sold second place as far as a theatrical Macross movie.

[Renato]

My review was "vehemently negative"? Either you misunderstood me, or I misrepresented myself.

Sorry I didn't like the movie as much as others, but I certainly didn't think it was absolutely terrible, either. I enjoyed it as much as I do an average movie. It was better than Revenge of Meine Fraulein (because it wasn't totally moronic, chaotic and nonsensical in premise and execution). It was about on par with Spiderman 3, and maybe Indy 4, overall (because you knew what you were getting before you went in, and there were no surprises. Flashy entertainment, done well). It was not as good as Jurassic Park (because there were few/no thematic arcs, no moments of genuine suspense, and nothing that makes you gasp, "oh my god, I've never seen that before!!").

As for Macross 7, as I say, everyone is welcome to Pete's "MW watches M7" thread. It's a breath of fresh air when civilized discussion is allowed to take place. Shame it took about ten years.

[Renato]

Alto broke a lot of the common tropes for teenage boy robot pilots when he actually decided to man up instead of having a breakdown and whining for half of the show. In a more-or-less complete reversal from Macross 7, there was only one character I DIDN'T have a use for, and that was Ranka...

If we're talking about breaking common tropes, how about having a character that devotes himself to resolution of conflict through non-violent means? That, and the problems involved therein, are all in Macross 7.

Anyway, I would like to point out just to make my stance clear that I do not watch a lot of anime these days and the robot shows I did watch and enjoy like Macross, Votoms and Orguss did not feature teenage whiny pilots having breakdowns. I guess Evangelion started that trend with Shinji? Maybe that's why I got sick and never finished watching that show. Thus even if Alto is an important protagonist by virtue of the fact that he stands out among the crowd of modern anime robot pilots, that is not the benchmark I used to measure his value. Rather, I critiqued him as a protagonist in a narrative in general.

Having said that, I remembered that Shin Kudo might actually have been an even worse lead (even if the concept of "a boy who knows nothing but war meets a girl who knows nothing but peace" had potential). The fact that I forgot all about him says a lot, I guess.

[MastaEgg]

Having said that, I remembered that Shin Kudo might actually have been an even worse lead (even if the concept of "a boy who knows nothing but war meets a girl who knows nothing but peace" had potential). The fact that I forgot all about him says a lot, I guess.

What's worse? Getting beat up by a girl or looking like one?

[sketchley]

My review was "vehemently negative"? Either you misunderstood me, or I misrepresented myself.

(...)

I think he misunderstood you. I quite liked the review as it confirmed my suspicions about the movie, and it definitely cemented the "wait for it on DVD" for me. I also trust your review, as you've demonstrated a very high fluency of the language - much more so than the other reviewists. (No offence intended if you do have a high command; I just haven't seen a demonstration of it.)

No, I wasn't even waffling on the fence before. I don't really like the majority of the characters in MF (the good ol' why should we (the audience) care about what happens to them?) factor), and the only real reason to go see the movie is the spectacle. As I watched the series on a rather large, HD TV, which amounts to pretty much the same viewing size as the average movie theatre, there's no real reason to spend the money nor bother with the extra hassle of going to see it (it's not at a convient theatre. Not that any of the "more convenient" theatres are that much more convenient. And I'm saying this living in the Kansai region!).

I agree that M7 has better characters (the good 'ol viewer caring about what happens to them). Of course, they spent a lot more time developing characters; sometimes at the expense of what others consider to be "true Macross" (not my opinion. Mine is that M7 evolves some of the concepts of Macross. Not saying that MF doesn't, but the MF evolution isn't as... prominent.)

Though, I disagree with the lumping of Indianna Jones IV with Spiderman 3. Spiderman 2, maybe. Not 3. Indianna Jones IV lived up to expectations. Spiderman 3 didn't have the magic of the preceeding two.

[azrael]

I think he misunderstood you. I quite liked the review as it confirmed my suspicions about the movie, and it definitely cemented the "wait for it on DVD" for me. I also trust your review, as you've demonstrated a very high fluency of the language - much more so than the other reviewists. (No offence intended if you do have a high command; I just haven't seen a demonstration of it.)

After reading the reviews here and review blogs, I'm inclined to follow the "wait for the DVD"-approach to watch it (that is of course, if I could watch it in theaters ). It doesn't feel like a DYRL but more like a Gundam Special Edition-type flick. It's probably the fact that old animation is mixed with new and the weaving of TV and movie parts together. But I guess we'll see in about 6-months-ish when the home video releases come out.

[MacrossCN]

HOT COS

http://milkcat0917.fc2web.com/page148.html

Edited December 8, 2009 by kresphy

[anime52k8]

HOT COS

http://milkcat0917.fc2web.com/page148.html

OH DAMN!

[BlackRose]

After reading the reviews here and review blogs, I'm inclined to follow the "wait for the DVD"-approach to watch it (that is of course, if I could watch it in theaters ). It doesn't feel like a DYRL but more like a Gundam Special Edition-type flick. It's probably the fact that old animation is mixed with new and the weaving of TV and movie parts together. But I guess we'll see in about 6-months-ish when the home video releases come out.

Now that's disappointing. I was looking forward to seeing the movie with my sister fly into Nagano to visit family in January. I was hoping it'd live up to the series.

[magnuskn]

If we're talking about breaking common tropes, how about having a character that devotes himself to resolution of conflict through non-violent means? That, and the problems involved therein, are all in Macross 7.

Anyway, I would like to point out just to make my stance clear that I do not watch a lot of anime these days and the robot shows I did watch and enjoy like Macross, Votoms and Orguss did not feature teenage whiny pilots having breakdowns. I guess Evangelion started that trend with Shinji? Maybe that's why I got sick and never finished watching that show. Thus even if Alto is an important protagonist by virtue of the fact that he stands out among the crowd of modern anime robot pilots, that is not the benchmark I used to measure his value. Rather, I critiqued him as a protagonist in a narrative in general.

Having said that, I remembered that Shin Kudo might actually have been an even worse lead (even if the concept of "a boy who knows nothing but war meets a girl who knows nothing but peace" had potential). The fact that I forgot all about him says a lot, I guess.

Since you haven't yet really given a reason as to why you dislike Alto, could you do so? I got some ( hopefully ) pretty good counter-arguments ready, since I've been defending him from various people over the last months. Although Seto Kaiba already gave a good defense of him, I think I got some more arguments to make as to why he is in reality a very good protagonist.

Now that's disappointing. I was looking forward to seeing the movie with my sister fly into Nagano to visit family in January. I was hoping it'd live up to the series.

You realize that he is just making up his opinion upon the opinion of another, who differed drastically from the reviews of several other people, right?

[sketchley]

Since you haven't yet really given a reason as to why you dislike Alto, could you do so? I got some ( hopefully ) pretty good counter-arguments ready, since I've been defending him from various people over the last months. Although Seto Kaiba already gave a good defense of him, I think I got some more arguments to make as to why he is in reality a very good protagonist.

Erm... you do realize that you're arguing against someone's opinion, right?

I'm also of the opinion that Aruto is, at best, a very weak protagonist. No amount of "fact" or countering opinion will change my opinion of "I just don't care what happens to him".

[grss1982]

HOT COS

http://milkcat0917.fc2web.com/page148.html

http://milkcat0917.fc2web.com/img925.jpg

http://milkcat0917.fc2web.com/img926.jpg

http://milkcat0917.fc2web.com/img927.jpg

http://milkcat0917.fc2web.com/img928.jpg

DARN, I'm speechless.

Loved the first image, BTW.

Edited December 8, 2009 by grss1982

[VF5SS]

As for Macross 7, as I say, everyone is welcome to Pete's "MW watches M7" thread. It's a breath of fresh air when civilized discussion is allowed to take place. Shame it took about ten years.

It took us that long to stop speaking endlessly about Macross Plus.

[magnuskn]

Erm... you do realize that you're arguing against someone's opinion, right?

I'm also of the opinion that Aruto is, at best, a very weak protagonist. No amount of "fact" or countering opinion will change my opinion of "I just don't care what happens to him".

Discussion is giving foundation to our opinion with facts, so that we can be sure that we are not talking out of our behinds. So, if you don't care about facts, I don't care to argue with you.

But if Renato feels like it is worth his time to have this discussion with me, he will provide some of the reasons behind his opinion and maybe I can change his mind a bit. He can just as well change my mind somewhat, although I think the foundation of my opinion is solid.

As to the pointlessness about argueing about opinions... this is an internet messageboard, right? We are all wasting some of our free time on, on the face of it, pointless debate, which could be better spent trying to foster the next generation of Macross fans, or somesuch.

[Renato]

This morning is probably going to be the last time I will be able to write much on this forum until the end of the month. I have to travel back and forth from Kyoto to Tokyo four times in the next couple of weeks with conferences, interviews and whatnot, so I'm sorry I cannot get into too deep a discussion. I will say this, though: it is much harder to convince one of what is lacking in a character than of what is actually there, since you cannot prove a negative.

It's not even about the characters being likeable or not. It's about depth.

That said, let's see, very quickly. Hikaru: he got involved in a war he had no business with, he jus wanted to fly planes.. as soon as he realized there was nothing for him to do, he joined the army, also to impress Minmay. He was just a kid soldier, being cocky to superiors at first. But he grew into this role, and finally accepted the responsibilities in his duties, going so far as ignoring Minmay's pleas to quit.

Basara: The concept for this character is so out there, that everyone will have a different reaction to his actions, and we see this in the show. This show is like clockwork, it's an ensemble piece, really, to make it all work into the climax. Everything he does is wrapped in mystery, and the whole story is about people playing catch-up, along with the audience.

Isamu: Behind his devil-may-care, thrill-seeking attitude, he carries a heavy burden. And he keeps running from the past. He's been through so much for Guld and Myung, so much as to allow Guld to blame him for what happened in the past, but he still plays the young fool. The thing is, you only gradually realize this towards the end.

Shin: His family was killed, so he joins the army. Hmm.. He meets some girls on an island. Good for him. He doesn't seem particularly worried the second time his partner gets shot down. He saves the girl by ejecting all his weapons.

Alto: Kabuki actor.. OK, that's random, but it's fine. In the movie,

he ran away because he was struggling to find himself -- he worried that if he was "becoming" all these roles, his own existence would disappear. Well.... How ironic. There is no scene in which he shows "who he is", so this throwaway scene has no meaning and might as well be from a different show.

In the series, he is constantly pestered by his "brother" who claims he is acting even when he gets in the cockpit to fight. This is interesting. Unfortunately, it is never addressed again. How does Alto deal with it? Is he acting, subconsciously? No resolution.

Just for the hell of it: Katsuragi Kei from Orguss: He is an irresponsible brat, who throws the fate of the universe and the space-time continuum into peril just so he can get laid! But he eventually grows and accepts his responsibilities, making any sacrifice for the possibility of a future for his unborn child. Excellent. This is another ensemble piece.

Lastly, I found another review here (I still haven't read one which says the movie is more than average):

http://www.otaku2.com/articleView.php?item=561

PS Patrick Galbraith from the site sent me an email regarding a conference in Ottawa on the subject of Otaku, if anyone in the area is interested. I will make a separate thread for this.

http://www.otaku2.com/articleView.php?item=573#comments

[magnuskn]

Alto: Kabuki actor.. OK, that's random, but it's fine. ... In the series, he is constantly pestered by his "brother" who claims he is acting even when he gets in the cockpit to fight. This is interesting. Unfortunately, it is never addressed again. How does Alto deal with it? Is he acting, subconsciously? No resolution.

I'll only address the series, since the movie has not been available to us non-Japan-traveling shlubs here.

First off, at the start of the series Alto clearly has problems integrating with his friends. He has been one year at least in the school with Michael and Luca, gets constantly teased by Michael and has the problem that people at the school call him "Princess", due to his hair cut and general feminine looks. It is made quite clear that he resents this questoning of his masculity.

Interestingly, he did not try to change that by cutting his hair into a more manly style, as would have been expected in such a situation, implicating that he a.) is far more secure in his masculinity than his irascible behaviour would indicate and b.) although he severed his connections to his family, he still respects tradition enough to not so drastically renounce his past as to try to purge any reminder of it.

Over the course of the series, it becomes clearer and clearer that, even while he easily gets into testy interaction with them, he is very loyal to his friends and goes to great pains to protect them as good as he can. This expands out towards him accepting the responsibility of acting for the greater good for the whole of Frontier, a place he personally hated before, due to it feeling opressive to him.

A problem many had with his character is the fact that we do not get into his head, outside of things he tells other characters. So, due to his stoic character, many missed that his character advancement was mostly done by his actions. As with the other characters in Macross Frontier, we are shown, not told. Only that Alto was not as out-going as the other characters and therefore his development was more difficult to spot.

[Save]

That said, let's see, very quickly. Hikaru: he got involved in a war he had no business with, he jus wanted to fly planes.. as soon as he realized there was nothing for him to do, he joined the army, also to impress Minmay. He was just a kid soldier, being cocky to superiors at first. But he grew into this role, and finally accepted the responsibilities in his duties, going so far as ignoring Minmay's pleas to quit.

Yep and he chooses Misa.

Basara: The concept for this character is so out there, that everyone will have a different reaction to his actions, and we see this in the show. This show is like clockwork, it's an ensemble piece, really, to make it all work into the climax. Everything he does is wrapped in mystery, and the whole story is about people playing catch-up, along with the audience.

I would hardly label the end of 7 a climax. If every thing Basara does is wrapped in mystery how do you know his story has a resolution. The only true resolution in 7 is that Max and Miria don't get divorced. I still have not see Dynamite 7 but have seen the series and movie. I was recently told by a group of Japanese Mac fans that Dynamite 7 is their favorite, only because it was made simply for fan service.

Isamu: Behind his devil-may-care, thrill-seeking attitude, he carries a heavy burden. And he keeps running from the past. He's been through so much for Guld and Myung, so much as to allow Guld to blame him for what happened in the past, but he still plays the young fool. The thing is, you only gradually realize this towards the end.

True but the deeper character Guld sacrifices himself for his mistake, their friendship and that he truly loves Myung. Thanks to his actions Isamu get's Myung by default even though she is Guld's sloppy seconds.

Shin: His family was killed, so he joins the army. Hmm.. He meets some girls on an island. Good for him. He doesn't seem particularly worried the second time his partner gets shot down. He saves the girl by ejecting all his weapons.

Yet, Alto is a weaker character??? We all watched it for CG Valks and the return of Fokker.

Alto: Kabuki actor.. OK, that's random, but it's fine. In the movie,

he ran away because he was struggling to find himself -- he worried that if he was "becoming" all these roles, his own existence would disappear. Well.... How ironic. There is no scene in which he shows "who he is", so this throwaway scene has no meaning and might as well be from a different show.

In the series, he is constantly pestered by his "brother" who claims he is acting even when he gets in the cockpit to fight. This is interesting. Unfortunately, it is never addressed again. How does Alto deal with it? Is he acting, subconsciously? No resolution.

Renato just a over a month ago you had told me in Shinjuku that you didn't even finish watching Frontier. If my memory serves me correctly you stopped at episode seven, and that you found nothing in the show of worth to make you finish watching it. I guess you went back and finished otherwise how do you know all the un-tied strings of Alto's character from the series, to base you heavy handed opinion? Alto is a male character designed for female fans (at least 50% of the fan base) not for us. Without his loser Fujoshi element Frontier would have not been a series, it would have been straight to DVD and most likely suffer the same fate as Zero's long drawn out OVA release.

So far I've only heard on person say the Movie was great, and simply told me he got exactly what he wanted "Mecha, Nipples and Macross". I have to admit I envy the guy.

Edited December 9, 2009 by Save

[VF5SS]

I thought Alto didn't cut his hair because it's linked to memories of his mother and the time she spent combing it.

Alto is kind of low-rent Kamille Bidan.

[hulagu]

I thought Alto didn't cut his hair because it's linked to memories of his mother and the time she spent combing it.

Alto is kind of low-rent Kamille Bidan.

LOL, I never noticed that until now.

He even does the helmet cracking final charge powered up by the (living) spirits of the girls who loved him, doesn't he?