Real world military hardware in SDFM era and beyond

[Prime]

In Macross Zero there were several examples where more or less exact real world aircraft and military hardware was in use alongside VF-0s, Destroids and other Overtech units. Presumably that continued up until at least the "Rain of Death". Is there any info or speculation on whether mankind continued to use or even produce existing real world designs after that point and into the future? I would imagine that some units would have survived via the Grand Cannons, but would they have been entirely replaced or production started up again in some cases?

[RedWolf]

In Macross Zero there were several examples where more or less exact real world aircraft and military hardware was in use alongside VF-0s, Destroids and other Overtech units. Presumably that continued up until at least the "Rain of Death". Is there any info or speculation on whether mankind continued to use or even produce existing real world designs after that point and into the future? I would imagine that some units would have survived via the Grand Cannons, but would they have been entirely replaced or production started up again in some cases?

Well Frontier has cars and choppers late 20th and early 21st century. But that could be an exemption not the rule as Frontier is a nostalgia invested fleet. Pays to have an old school loving transport mogul funding your fleet.

[sketchley]

As soon as the ASS-1 (later SDF-1) crashed, everything on Earth changed. Long story short - the existance of aliens is confirmed, and the application of advanced alien technology is applied. So, everything in the real world developed after July 17, 1999, would be different somehow.

SDF:M went into great detail with changes in technology (F-203 Dragon II, Fan Racer, Yonyo Motto-72 CD player and so on), but Macross Zero appears to have forgotten about it, and introduced a lot of real world equipment.

Therefore, I'm of the opinion that real world (in the sense of not being upgraded or enhanced partially or completely with OTEC) equipment continued to be used, but was being phased out by equipment that either partially used or was completely based on OTEC.

What is clear in the various translations of Macross materials I've been doing of late, is that not just the VF-1, but pretty much all of the transitionary equipment made after the introduction of OTEC (pretty much before and for up to a decade after the end of SWI) was phased out and replaced by better equipment. So, it's highly unlikely that anything pre-introduction of OTEC is still being used, but there is the possibility (as the general rule of thumb with Macross is: if it's not clearly stated one way or the other, it's possible.)

[azrael]

SDF:M went into great detail with changes in technology (F-203 Dragon II, ...

Keep in mind that the F-203 might have been used in a different theater of war. It's not that it didn't exist, it's just that it wasn't in service in the Pacific.

Therefore, I'm of the opinion that real world (in the sense of not being upgraded or enhanced partially or completely with OTEC) equipment continued to be used, but was being phased out by equipment that either partially used or was completely based on OTEC.

I agree. From the current readings, it does give that sense that old equipment was still in service and implementing OTEC in to the manufacturing was a slow process. In a sense, the VF-0/SV-51 bridged the gap between the mixing pre-OTEC and post-OTEC designs. Even though the F-14 in M0 was updated with OTEC parts, it's still, at the core, an F-14. And eventually, both of those would disappear into history with the roll out of the VF-1.

[akt_m]

Keep in mind that the F-203 might have been used in a different theater of war. It's not that it didn't exist, it's just that it wasn't in service in the Pacific.

I agree. From the current readings, it does give that sense that old equipment was still in service and implementing OTEC in to the manufacturing was a slow process. In a sense, the VF-0/SV-51 bridged the gap between the mixing pre-OTEC and post-OTEC designs. Even though the F-14 in M0 was updated with OTEC parts, it's still, at the core, an F-14. And eventually, both of those would disappear into history with the roll out of the VF-1.

Or maybe Kawamori wanted to remove the F-203 from canon. Maybe that's why you don't see it in M-0

[azrael]

Or maybe Kawamori wanted to remove the F-203 from canon. Maybe that's why you don't see it in M-0

Of course, we all know how Kawamori is with canon....we says pOtato, he says it's somwhere in between poTAto and pOtato.

[Noyhauser]

Keep in mind that the F-203 might have been used in a different theater of war. It's not that it didn't exist, it's just that it wasn't in service in the Pacific.

In addition its quite possible that Dragon equipped squadrons were depleted and replaced by older fighters retrofitted with OTEC. Remember the mechanic's comment that most of the pilots are new and inexperienced due to losses; using older fighters was their only option to replace those losses. Or in the case of illustrious there just wasn't replacement airframes weren't available so they were forced to make due with upgraded versions of their present airframes. Only newer carriers like the Asuka were deployed with bleeding edge carriers like the VF-0.

Second; the dragon was shown to be a land based fighter; Macross Zero was fought completely fought by Carrier forces (on the UN's side)

Edited September 25, 2009 by Noyhauser

[Prime]

As soon as the ASS-1 (later SDF-1) crashed, everything on Earth changed. Long story short - the existance of aliens is confirmed, and the application of advanced alien technology is applied. So, everything in the real world developed after July 17, 1999, would be different somehow.

I would say that varies based on the type of equipment. Clearly combat vehicles would differ greatly, but for example support and transport vehicles probably less so. Taking the S-3 Viking from Zero for example, we see it in a refueling and rearming role. Presumably it serves this role quite well, and while some OTEC upgrades may be helpful, it doesn't seem as though using an OTEC replacement gains you much.

SDF:M went into great detail with changes in technology (F-203 Dragon II, Fan Racer, Yonyo Motto-72 CD player and so on), but Macross Zero appears to have forgotten about it, and introduced a lot of real world equipment.

I think azrael and Noyhauser are probably right that they just weren't involved in the events seen in Zero. Having that mixture makes the most sense. As fighters get replaced new ones become introduced. Perhaps the Dragon II (which I viewed as more a non-carrier based Air Force fighter) is somewhat akin to the Raptor as a new fighter than came into service in the 00's, but older fighters are still in use while receiving periodic upgrades. No need to make an expensive swap of equipment if the old stuff still sufficiently fills its role.

What is clear in the various translations of Macross materials I've been doing of late, is that not just the VF-1, but pretty much all of the transitionary equipment made after the introduction of OTEC (pretty much before and for up to a decade after the end of SWI) was phased out and replaced by better equipment. So, it's highly unlikely that anything pre-introduction of OTEC is still being used, but there is the possibility (as the general rule of thumb with Macross is: if it's not clearly stated one way or the other, it's possible.)

While I agree that after a decode or so after SW1 most pre-1999 equipment would be replaced, I don't necessarily think that the new equipment would be largely dependent on OTEC. Is the helicopter in Macross Plus really going to be that different from our current ones?

I agree. From the current readings, it does give that sense that old equipment was still in service and implementing OTEC in to the manufacturing was a slow process. In a sense, the VF-0/SV-51 bridged the gap between the mixing pre-OTEC and post-OTEC designs. Even though the F-14 in M0 was updated with OTEC parts, it's still, at the core, an F-14. And eventually, both of those would disappear into history with the roll out of the VF-1.

No doubt initially introducing new OTEC systems and even upgrades was expensive. But do you think that transition period would get a bit of a jump start immediately after SW1 when so much was destroyed?

I guess to narrow down my question, specifically after SW1 and say the next few years afterward when the world was rebuilding, was it easier to just replace equipment with an OTEC versions, or was it still more cost effective to use and manufacture conventional equipment with possible OTEC upgrades, a la the F-14? Would a S-3 Viking, naval frigate, or B-2 Bomber be in regular service during that time?

[azrael]

No doubt initially introducing new OTEC systems and even upgrades was expensive. But do you think that transition period would get a bit of a jump start immediately after SW1 when so much was destroyed?

I guess to narrow down my question, specifically after SW1 and say the next few years afterward when the world was rebuilding, was it easier to just replace equipment with an OTEC versions, or was it still more cost effective to use and manufacture conventional equipment with possible OTEC upgrades, a la the F-14? Would a S-3 Viking, naval frigate, or B-2 Bomber be in regular service during that time

In the Reconstruction period...I would have to say it would have been easier to just apply upgrades. Why? Because Earth was decimated. You have a shortage of labor and manufacturing and there's a strong demand to move people and equipment around. Cost-wise, it would easier in the long-run to build new equipment. But that capability was hampered with reconstruction. And to get new equipment would have taken a bit to get out so it would have been easier to get current equipment upgraded until a replacement system was in place. Which is where the Factory Satellite(s) come in.

[Ghost Train]

Lol the site posted by sketchley is awesome... Word Processor Computer! but wait..... COMES WITH additional external hard drive omg XD.

[sketchley]

I would say that varies based on the type of equipment. Clearly combat vehicles would differ greatly, but for example support and transport vehicles probably less so. Taking the S-3 Viking from Zero for example, we see it in a refueling and rearming role. Presumably it serves this role quite well, and while some OTEC upgrades may be helpful, it doesn't seem as though using an OTEC replacement gains you much.

From this I believe you've misunderstood my point. My point is that there is a 2 decade (decode as you wrote) transitional period. The equipment being operated in Macross Zero take place within the first 5 years or thereabouts of that transitional period. See: "Therefore, I'm of the opinion that real world (in the sense of not being upgraded or enhanced partially or completely with OTEC) equipment continued to be used, but was being phased out by equipment that either partially used or was completely based on OTEC".

I don't necessarily think that the new equipment would be largely dependent on OTEC. Is the helicopter in Macross Plus really going to be that different from our current ones?

It is true that the helicopter and like wouldn't have the big name OTEC enhancements, such as fold drives, gravity control, SWAG and so on. However, there's much more to OTEC than that. "Variable Fighter Masterfile VF-1 Valkyrie" has a section devoted to the small OTEC enhancements. The accompanying images to that section are of the threads on nuts and bolts. Pre-OTEC, there are gaps between the threads of tightened bolts and nuts. Post application of OTEC, the gaps between the threads has been eliminated.

If OTEC is able to create such perfect machining on the lowely nut and bolt, what about more important things, such as engine blocks and so forth? Therefore, so-called "conventional" vehicles have a lot more OTEC in them then is readily apparent. The AI pilot of that helicopter should also be a big clue as well.

I guess to narrow down my question, specifically after SW1 and say the next few years afterward when the world was rebuilding, was it easier to just replace equipment with an OTEC versions, or was it still more cost effective to use and manufacture conventional equipment with possible OTEC upgrades, a la the F-14? Would a S-3 Viking, naval frigate, or B-2 Bomber be in regular service during that time?

It'd be more cost effective, up until the point that gas fuel supplies run out*. HOWEVER, the vast majority of conventional equipment was destroyed. Not to mention that a large part of the surviving population was in orbit (Apollo Base, Ship Yards, the Colony Clusters). So, a lot of "conventional" equipment wouldn't even be applicable, let alone readily available, despite those off-Earth locations having survived the destruction of the Earth.

* Yes, there would be a ready supply of fuel in the Zentraadi ships that joined the UN forces at the end of SWI, but as Zentraadi craft use thermonuclear engines, the fuel wouldn't work in conventional vehicles without significant OTEC modifications.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Planes are expensive, they're in the middle of a ten-year war, thousands have died, taking their expensive machinery with them.

Taking scrapped planes from boneyards, refitting them with OTEC, and sending them out is cheaper and faster than producing new ones. Thus, the F-14 is still in service, the S-3 is a tanker, and so on and so forth. It's improvisation. Militaries do it all the time, especially the navy. You don't always have all the things you need to do things right, so you do 'em a bit wrong and it works.

Feel free to troll me, Sketchley, for my two cents.

[Prime]

And to get new equipment would have taken a bit to get out so it would have been easier to get current equipment upgraded until a replacement system was in place. Which is where the Factory Satellite(s) come in.

Ah yes, a good point. The Factory Satellite probably changes a lot about what is "easier" to produce. I believe it was modified to produce hardware other than Zentran gear, but I'm not sure to what degree. Was it only things like VFs and starships, or a much broader range?

It is true that the helicopter and like wouldn't have the big name OTEC enhancements, such as fold drives, gravity control, SWAG and so on. However, there's much more to OTEC than that. "Variable Fighter Masterfile VF-1 Valkyrie" has a section devoted to the small OTEC enhancements. The accompanying images to that section are of the threads on nuts and bolts. Pre-OTEC, there are gaps between the threads of tightened bolts and nuts. Post application of OTEC, the gaps between the threads has been eliminated.

That's very interesting and something I didn't know. Does it go into how easy this was to do? Would it be easy enough to do to be worthwhile for everyday items like trucks during the Reconstruction?

Taking scrapped planes from boneyards, refitting them with OTEC, and sending them out is cheaper and faster than producing new ones.

But it might not be cheaper or faster than getting the Factory Satellite to produce new ones with OTEC.

[SchizophrenicMC]

But it might not be cheaper or faster than getting the Factory Satellite to produce new ones with OTEC.

Well, maybe post-SW1, but I was referring to the time between 1999 and February 2009.