The Role of the VF-1J in DYRL

[Cyclone Trooper]

For decades now, its been common knowledge that Macross Valkyries use a unique ranking system with their Valkyries in the TV series: the head unit. While this is kind of ridiculous from a military standpoint, it's mainly used as a way to differentiate different heroes onscreen, aside from color scheme. VF-1S is generally assigned to the squadron commander, the VF-1J to combat aces or second-in-command, and the 1A to anyone else barely eligible to climb into a Valkyrie cockpit. In DYRL, this ranking heirarchy gets loosely translated onto the big screen. But it seems that the 1J is completely cut out of the equation established in the TV series. Skull Squadron, for example, consisted of a VF-1S and VF-1As only (at least those seen in the movie). When Max got his upgraded Valk, he completely bypassed the 1J altogether and got a brand-spanking-new 1S.

The only time that we see the existence of the VF-1J in DYRL is in a 5-second scene during the final battle of Space War I...all decked out in GBP armor. In terms of usage in battle, I've always viewed Valkyries outfitted with a GBP system to be little more than a 6th Destroid that just happens to have one hell of an advanced escape pod: the Valkyrie itself. But that's just my personal view. Considering the proliferation of "specialized" Valkyries in DYRL such as the VE-1 and VT-1, is it possible that the 1J somehow got relegated to being the only Valkyrie designed to accept the GBP? I'm sure no one else has questioned this particular point of view before, but it could be entirely possible...at least in the DYRL universe.

Edited September 21, 2009 by Cyclone Trooper

[Agent ONE]

just to hold the GPB and warm the bench. It was my least favorite anyway.

[Mohawk]

In regards to the VF-1J in DYRL...I like to think that the Vf-1J was just another cannon fodder plane, there were probably loads of them getting blown up out there in that first attack in the film...It'd be nice to think that it was treated as a Heavy Weapons Valk and specially used with the GBP because it is somewhere between the Vf-1A and Vf-1S in terms of armament etc.

another one that gets overlooked was that Vf-1R (i think thats what its usually called) Its that strange VF-1a with three lasers... I think its only in ep.32 of SDFM...or is that just an animation mistake?

[VFTF1]

Correct me if I'm wrong - but didn't Max fly his 1A pretty much throughout SDFM TV? I mean - his blue 1J didn't show up until towards the end of the series, yet he was made a squad leader soon after returning to earth because everyone else was dead and he had some experience. Also, he was an ace and he was an ace who flew a 1A.

My point is, I don't think this "equation" actually holds that much water even in the TV series.

Personally, I really like the 1J, particularly Hikaru's colors and the Hikaru 1J will always be the definitive Hikaru for me...

The rank thing is just a rule of thumb... In DYRL, I did kind of miss the 1J, but not alot since we got the VT-1

Pete

[eugimon]

In regards to the VF-1J in DYRL...I like to think that the Vf-1J was just another cannon fodder plane, there were probably loads of them getting blown up out there in that first attack in the film...It'd be nice to think that it was treated as a Heavy Weapons Valk and specially used with the GBP because it is somewhere between the Vf-1A and Vf-1S in terms of armament etc.

another one that gets overlooked was that Vf-1R (i think thats what its usually called) Its that strange VF-1a with three lasers... I think its only in ep.32 of SDFM...or is that just an animation mistake?

It's an animation mistake in Macross. It's an abomination in Robotech.

[eugimon]

Correct me if I'm wrong - but didn't Max fly his 1A pretty much throughout SDFM TV? I mean - his blue 1J didn't show up until towards the end of the series, yet he was made a squad leader soon after returning to earth because everyone else was dead and he had some experience. Also, he was an ace and he was an ace who flew a 1A.

My point is, I don't think this "equation" actually holds that much water even in the TV series.

Personally, I really like the 1J, particularly Hikaru's colors and the Hikaru 1J will always be the definitive Hikaru for me...

The rank thing is just a rule of thumb... In DYRL, I did kind of miss the 1J, but not alot since we got the VT-1

Pete

Max has his vf-1j while they're still in space. He shows it off in the episode where he flies escort for Misa on her way back to earth, is busy showing off, completely loses track of what he was doing (protecting the shuttle) and Hikaru has to come bail him out.

Max, proving that an ace pilot doesn't always make for a good pilot.

[ChronoReverse]

What are you talking about? Max was told by the Macross controllers that there was an attack and he sent some planes to delay the enemy while he and some other planes stayed behind. Macross then tells him there's an ambush as well and guess what, Max is there to help defend the shuttle. Too bad they're MASSIVELY outnumbered and the reinforcements won't be there for a while even though 2 out of the three sets of planes sent to delay the first group returned to help. Then Hikaru was sent in the super to save them.

Max did his job EXACTLY like he was supposed to and even destroyed 30 pods (out of about 60) by the time Hikaru got there. He showed he was a good commander AND a great pilot.

Edited September 21, 2009 by ChronoReverse

[eugimon]

That's the truth from a certain point of view.

[ChronoReverse]

Certain point of view? How was he fooling around then? Explain, because saying it's a "point of view" is worse than a copout.

I just rewatched it right now and there's no "point of view" here. Max was alert to the situation and even used appropriate tactics (delaying the attack so reinforcements could catch up). When it turned out to be an ambush, he had his forces already there and even himself already there. Despite being outnumbered, he destroyed half of the enemy forces by the time Hikaru arrived (which took less than 20 minutes). What could have he done better?

Edited September 21, 2009 by ChronoReverse

[Seto Kaiba]

Considering the proliferation of "specialized" Valkyries in DYRL such as the VE-1 and VT-1, is it possible that the 1J somehow got relegated to being the only Valkyrie designed to accept the GBP? I'm sure no one else has questioned this particular point of view before, but it could be entirely possible...at least in the DYRL universe.

In the alternate universe continuity leading up to Macross II: Lovers Again, for which DYRL is the "correct" version of Space War 1, your question does have a definitive answer... and that answer is "Yes". According to the VF History article in B-Club 79, which outlines the history of VF technology in what is now the alternate universe continuity, and several other sources, the GBP-1 armor system was initially only compatible with the VF-1J. At some unspecified point after the war, the other variants were all refitted to be able to equip the GBP-1 armor.

In the main Macross continuity, where DYRL is a "movie within the universe", your guess is as good as mine.

another one that gets overlooked was that Vf-1R (i think thats what its usually called) Its that strange VF-1a with three lasers... I think its only in ep.32 of SDFM...or is that just an animation mistake?

That's an animation mistake. The developers of Robotech: Battlecry turned that mistake into a "new" design when they were fleshing out the game, and Harmony Gold later canonized it for Robotech.

It should not be confused with the VF-1R from Macross's alternate universe continuity, which is also known as the Valkyrie Kai. The "VF-1R" was created for the canon Macross II prequel game Macross 2036: the Neld Fleet Incident. The VF-1R isn't a single variant, but rather an evolutionary upgrade to the whole VF-1 platform to improve its capabilities and optimize it for combat in space. It comes in three variants... the VF-1AR, VF-1JR, and VF-1SR, all of which are equipped with the semi-permanent SP-II super parts. Notable pilots include Komilia Maria Jenius.

[eugimon]

Relax ChronoReverse, I was just having some fun off of VFTF1's rah-rah for Max so I thought I'd play up Hikaru a little.

But if you wanna be angry about it: Max splits off his squadron without knowing the full situation then in the beginning of the main attack on the shuttle max transforms and flies away from the shuttle to go pursue targets and immediately the shuttle takes hits. Later there's a shot of max doing his thing and the shuttle is off in the distance without any of her escort fighters nearby. Yes, max is behind the shuttle but if they were really in a cloud of pods who was there to protect the shuttle from attacks coming from the other directions? Were they outnumbered, yes but Max still flew away from his target and left it undefended. That misa was protected by plot armor and survived isn't the point.

[ChronoReverse]

If you're within visible distance in space, you are BESIDE IT. In that very shot you're talking about, one of the pods Max just destroys goes right by the shuttle, how can you call it anything but spitting distance? Not to mention in the shot right before that, you can see the shuttle firing verniers to try to adjust its course out of the action. There's SIXTY pods charging at Max and his escort complement, of course some of them could fire at the shuttle while they're trying to fight them. It's not like you could stand on the shuttle's wing and shoot from there.

And Max sent his squadron off to delay the attack. What is wrong with doing this without knowing the full situation? The operators on Macross didn't know anything either and it's the nature of an ambush that you cannot know about it beforehand. Besides the fighters he sent off were close enough to rejoin the main shuttle defense as well so that means Max didn't send them off on a wild goose chase. And note how even though they were recalled, 1 out of the 3 squads were STILL left there to fight the first attack because it's a REAL attack.

So here's the summary:

(1) Max didn't fly away from the shuttle, since the pod he had just blown up floated past the shuttle even while it was breaking apart.

(2) Max sent some of his squad out to deal with a real attack. They were still close enough to come back and help but not all of them were called back since the first attack had to be delayed from entering the fray.

(3) Max kept the greater part of the defense (most notably HIMSELF) with the shuttle and managed to destroy half the attacking force in less than the 20 minutes maximum (implied to be less than that) it took for Hikaru to arrive

It's nothing short of a spectacular victory to survive an ambush of superior numbers for that long while trying to protect a soft target.

I don't really care what you feel about Hikaru or Max, whether they're overrated or not. This is simply a wildly inaccurate interpretation of the events.

Edited September 22, 2009 by ChronoReverse

[eugimon]

1. you're way too strung up about this. Like I tried to hint and then explained EXPLICITLY I was riffing off of VFTF1's post. I wasn't trying to make a serious statement about max and this thread isn't even about max just about the vf-1j and what place it has in the show.

2. The order was to change course and evade. Max decides to split his forces and attack.

3. There were 6 valkyries in his squad, he sends off 4, 5, 6. That's half.

3a. When the delay team is ordered to regroup only units 5 and 6 are given orders, what happened to 4? Did he creamed out in space because Max didn't follow orders?

4. The pod debris don't fly "past" the shuttle at all. Look at the debris they pass well in front of the shuttle.

5. with no horizon and no atmospheric distortion LOS is greater in space than in atmosphere, so no, LOS is not "spitting distance"

6. Max isn't shown interacting with his squad, setting up kills or even protecting them. He's supposed to be their squad leader but other than when they're flying in formation he's never helps them out or directs them

Again, Max is obviously a genius and his sheer skill get them through the situation My point is that he's not necessarily a "good" pilot in that he's more concerned with himself than his squadmates or objectives. This is hammered home in DYRL when he freaking abandons Hikaru to go dogfight on his own and then when abandons his post so he can become macronized and fly around with Miryia.

[ChronoReverse]

(1) If this is true then you can admit that you were riffing with an inaccurate interpretation, I only care about accuracy of what the claimed events are.

(2) Indeed. He sent 4, 5 and 6 to _delay_ the attack while they were evading. His words.

(3) Wrong. At least 4 valkyries vector off at his orders. Therefore it must have been sets of valkyries not individuals.

(3a) It's still engaging the first group. It's a real attack afterall.

(4) If both objects are significant on the screen (taking up a sizeable chunk that is) then they're spitting distance of each other. Did you need the debris bouncing off the shuttle or something?

(5) Assuming this is true (which it isn't because the lack of atmospheric interference means that weapons have incredible accuracy), the shuttle was still large on the screen thus point blank.

(6) This is your assumption of the situation and since we were not privy to most of the battle there's nothing to directly refute it. However, we do know that the defense shot down 30 out of 60 pods with the shuttle only being lightly scathed during that time. In DYRL Max was certainly a hotshot and went off to fight Milia, but this isn't so clear in SDF. This particular event however doesn't show any problems in how Max dealt with the attack.

Note that there are at least 12 escort planes

Delay them

Before they started moving

Four planes are seen to break off

This is when the main attack arrives. Max is about to transform his plane here (meaning he's going to fight here)

The debris of the first pod Max shoots down

Moving obliquely past the shuttle

Just before Hikaru arrives Max is still here

A shot of the VF-1J

Edited September 22, 2009 by ChronoReverse

[azrael]

Now to bring this thread back on topic....

It was there for shits and giggles. THAT'S IT.

[eugimon]

omfg.

Anyways, I don't think any conclusion can be drawn about the 1j based on what's shown in DYRL, looks like nothing more than a fan pleasing cameo.

[nexxstrait]

Sadly, just a cameo for 1J lovers. I never understood why they left my favourite valkyrie (and an iconic one, too) out of the picture. Fortunately, Yamato made it possible for me to give Hikaru the battroid he belongs to.

[hutch]

When I was a kid I kind of always thought of the GBP armor seemed like the Reese's Peanut Butter cup of Macross..."You got your Valkyrie in my Spartan! You got your Spartan in my Valkyrie!" because for some reason when I was young the designs just struck me as very similar.

Love that they worked it into DYRL for a moment...I like some of the ideas here...I'd never thought about it that deeply.

Also, the "Defense of Max" with the screencaps and explanations is epic.

[ChronoReverse]

Also, the "Defense of Max" with the screencaps and explanations is epic.

Hehe, for me Macross is Serious Business

[VF5SS]

In the alternate universe continuity leading up to Macross II: Lovers Again, for which DYRL is the "correct" version of Space War 1, your question does have a definitive answer... and that answer is "Yes". According to the VF History article in B-Club 79, which outlines the history of VF technology in what is now the alternate universe continuity, and several other sources, the GBP-1 armor system was initially only compatible with the VF-1J. At some unspecified point after the war, the other variants were all refitted to be able to equip the GBP-1 armor.

That's a pretty dumb assumption especially considering the number of GBP-1S toys and models that weren't just the VF-1J. Hell the big deluxe set from Takatoku used the VF-1S. Even some Armored VF-1As show up in episode 27. And if you play the DYRL game, all of Skull Squadron gets decked out in color matched GBP-1S armor for the ARMD attack. I don't think the B-Club guy was doing his homework.

That black and red VF-1A is pretty cool looking.

[Gubaba]

That's a pretty dumb assumption especially considering the number of GBP-1S toys and models that weren't just the VF-1J. Hell the big deluxe set from Takatoku used the VF-1S. Even some Armored VF-1As show up in episode 27. And if you play the DYRL game, all of Skull Squadron gets decked out in color matched GBP-1S armor for the ARMD attack. I don't think the B-Club guy was doing his homework.

But Macross II is a sequel to DYRL, not the TV series. And all those toys and models were made for the TV series.

EDIT: By the way, thanks for the big pic of that scene. I had seen the "MARI IIJIMA" Phalanx before, but this is the first time I've ever noticed the "DOI MIKA" Phalanx above it...

Edited September 22, 2009 by Gubaba

[taksraven]

That's a pretty dumb assumption especially considering the number of GBP-1S toys and models that weren't just the VF-1J. Hell the big deluxe set from Takatoku used the VF-1S. Even some Armored VF-1As show up in episode 27. And if you play the DYRL game, all of Skull Squadron gets decked out in color matched GBP-1S armor for the ARMD attack. I don't think the B-Club guy was doing his homework.

I am a massive VF-1J fan too. Always liked the colour on Hikaru's version and to me it was always the iconic valk of the series.

That black and red VF-1A is pretty cool looking.

What is going on with the other VF-1A on the upper right of the picture. Another "Mystery unit"?

Taksraven

[anime52k8]

ok, just to throw some random facts into the original question.

according to the VF-1 Master file book, of the 5459 valks produced, only 49 were originally VF-1J's (with VF-1J's being VF-1's build under license in Japan by Shinnakasu). Ok, so the reason you see multiple VF-1J's in SDF:M is because in that version of SW1, most if not all of the Japanese produced VF-1's ended up being set to South atria to equip the SDF-1; in DYRL? the majority of the 1J's remained in Japan or where shipped elsewhere. the 1 VF-1J that did happen to end up on the SDF-1 was probably delivered along the GPB-01 from shinnakasu.

[Cyclone Trooper]

ok, just to throw some random facts into the original question.

according to the VF-1 Master file book, of the 5459 valks produced, only 49 were originally VF-1J's (with VF-1J's being VF-1's build under license in Japan by Shinnakasu). Ok, so the reason you see multiple VF-1J's in SDF:M is because in that version of SW1, most if not all of the Japanese produced VF-1's ended up being set to South atria to equip the SDF-1; in DYRL? the majority of the 1J's remained in Japan or where shipped elsewhere. the 1 VF-1J that did happen to end up on the SDF-1 was probably delivered along the GPB-01 from shinnakasu.

That actually makes the most sense, all things considered...

Now...WTF is up with that Phalanx's head unit? That's definitely not standard-issue!

[Seto Kaiba]

That's a pretty dumb assumption especially considering the number of GBP-1S toys and models that weren't just the VF-1J. Hell the big deluxe set from Takatoku used the VF-1S. Even some Armored VF-1As show up in episode 27. And if you play the DYRL game, all of Skull Squadron gets decked out in color matched GBP-1S armor for the ARMD attack. I don't think the B-Club guy was doing his homework.

That the GBP-1 was initially only compatible with the VF-1J is not a "dumb assumption", VF5SS, it's the official line on the matter as far as the alternate universe goes. The writers at B-Club got the information directly from the production staff. The only problem here is in the logic of your objections, as I will now illustrate:

1.) The alternate universe continuity leading up to Macross II: Lovers Again uses DYRL, not the TV series, as the "correct" depiction of Space War 1.

2.) The toys and models you're referencing were made for the TV series, not DYRL. Furthermore, the article does say that the other variants were later refitted for compatibility with the GBP-1 armor, as I did point out.

3.) The Macross: Do You Remember Love? video game was released five years after Macross II concluded, well after Shoji Kawamori had placed Macross II and its prequels on "alternate universe" status. So, rationally, the game reflects the "movie in the universe" dramatization filmed in 2031, not the authentic events and setting of the war used for the alternate universe.

Essentially, your assumption that someone at B-Club made a "pretty dumb assumption" because they weren't "doing their homework" is based entirely on irrelevant material that you assumed was relevant because you didn't do your homework. Ironic, no?

Now...WTF is up with that Phalanx's head unit? That's definitely not standard-issue!

Probably just an improvised repair... they WERE operating for an extended period without resupply.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[SchizophrenicMC]

My guess is the entire line of VF-1s were capable of using the GBP-1S. However, they weren't show using them. The VF-1A may have less powerful sensors, the 1D probably couldn't attach it, and the 1S is too rare and expensive to use for Ground Pounding, leaving the 1J as the last choice, with its intermediate avionics and pilots.

This plays into the very limited battroid combat we see from cannon fodder, since pilots were likely not good at piloting the humanoid construct, as well as the fighter, and the GBP-1S limits the plane to Battroid mode.

Thus, I assume the VF-1J is a heavy attack variant of the VF-1A, since their only differences are the head unit. The 1J likely has better sensors, as well as its dual-mounted lasers. Two lasers is twice the firepower, and they're identical in every other way.

So, not a 6th Destroid, but definitely the attack Valkyrie.

[JB0]

I am a massive VF-1J fan too. Always liked the colour on Hikaru's version and to me it was always the iconic valk of the series.

What is going on with the other VF-1A on the upper right of the picture. Another "Mystery unit"?

Looks to me like a standard Brownie that grabbed a missile rack and slung it under one arm. It fits the general theme of "anything that CAN fire a missile IS firing a missile" for that sequence. And makes me grin.

I'd actually never noticed that one before. The funky Phalanxes always distract me.

[nexxstrait]

[Seto Kaiba]

Where's that from?

[azrael]

Where's that from?

IIRC, it was from the DYRL? game. It appeared for about a second...Just like the Armored VF-1J. It was there to tease people.

[VF5SS]

Uhm, you play the entire ARMD Attack level as that Armored VF-1A. It even does the armor drop off after you beat the boss. You can see the other member of Skull Squad in matching armor fighting in the background with the Destroids in tow.

[nexxstrait]

IIRC, it was from the DYRL? game. It appeared for about a second...Just like the Armored VF-1J. It was there to tease people.

Aye aye sir!

[SchizophrenicMC]

Hell, it's canon enough for me!

[JB0]

Uhm, you play the entire ARMD Attack level as that Armored VF-1A. It even does the armor drop off after you beat the boss. You can see the other member of Skull Squad in matching armor fighting in the background with the Destroids in tow.

And you shoot BLUE bullets instead of the RED bullets you shoot when you aren't armored up!