Macross II

[eugimon]

No, I say accept Macross II now!

It's not really accepting when you have to rewrite half the script to get it to work.

[Gubaba]

Personally, I would prefer to keep Macross II as far removed from the main continuity's various flavors of pseudo-magical singing as humanly possible. Let it be its own universe, and maybe they'll revisit it and flesh it out more once they run out of evil aliens for humanity to militarily neuter and then befriend with song in the main continuity.

I suppose that could happen...if there were really no other choice...

A while back, I was having a talk with Wanzerfan over PM, where he said he would never forgive Kawamori for shoving aside the Macross II timeline to make way for his own.

To me, it made perfect sense, and I think anybody in Kawamori's shoes would've done the same. Yes, he could have made "Macross III: Still Lovers After All These Years," but he would've been shackled to a continuity that A) he had had no part in creating, and B) had not been successful.

If Macross II had been a hit, I'm sure the pressure would've been on Kawamori (or whoever took the reins next) to continue it; but it wasn't. And who would see Macross III if they hadn't seen Macross II? Macross probably would've died a lonely, unwatched death in 1994 if they had gone that route.

And then, we would be envious of Robotech fans for getting Shadow Chronicles, instead of luxuriating in Frontier and the Macross renaissance that has erupted due to it.

(I also think you're being a little unfair in your assessment of the main continuity...the Mardook were also befriended through song, after all...or at least, some of them were. )

[dreamweaver13]

And then, we would be envious of Robotech fans for getting Shadow Chronicles, instead of luxuriating in Frontier and the Macross renaissance that has erupted due to it.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, we must never EVER forget. Vigilance!!

[Seto Kaiba]

To me, it made perfect sense, and I think anybody in Kawamori's shoes would've done the same. Yes, he could have made "Macross III: Still Lovers After All These Years," but he would've been shackled to a continuity that A) he had had no part in creating, and B) had not been successful.

It made sense to me too, at least from a practical standpoint... I do wish Kawamori had been a bit truer to the themes of the original with Macross Plus and the shows that followed it, and I REALLY wish he'd thought twice about Macross 7, but I certainly don't resent him for doing what he did. He had his own story he wanted to tell, with its own particular merits. So instead of a non-canon movie, we have a second, essentially self-contained parallel universe (ala Gundam's AU titles) with its own history and everything, and I'm totally fine with that. There are some who aren't, but hey, everybody's entitled to their opinion.

(I also think you're being a little unfair in your assessment of the main continuity...the Mardook were also befriended through song, after all...or at least, some of them were. )

Like I said, my problem with the main continuity's use of song as a weapon isn't the song itself, it's the various flavors of magic attached to it in later generation Macross shows... like Macross 7's spirita, the fold wave-emitting stomach flu from Macross Frontier, or whatever goddamn voodoo Sara used to levitate rocks in her birthday suit in Macross Zero. That and the fact that once they've bested an enemy with the magical song power du jour, the threat is neutralized once and for all... the aliens usually just pack up and leave. The only potentially recurring threat left is the Zentradi, and they were demoted to comic relief status starting in Macross 7. So much for "1000 fleets still roaming the galaxy"...

That's one of the things I really love about the Macross II continuity... the Zentradi and the Meltrandi are still a very real threat to humanity, what with the major and minor fleet engagements every few years from 2010 to 2055, at least one of which did horrendous near-SW1-level damage to the U.N. Spacy, and a couple more after that.

Edited September 18, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[Keith]

You could consider it magic, or you could go the other route. The Protoculture essentially figured out how to deconstruct, re-assemble, and shape, the building blocks of life any way they saw fit. What you are considering "magic,' is little more to PC science than upgrading a machine. The Vajra's neural network presides in their digestive tracts (eww), and happen to be a highly complex super computer form.

Neurons & circuits aren't fundamentally different, one just occurs naturally, while the other occurs through man made recreation of that science. Spiritia? An amplification of the electical waves that the human brain already operates on. Anima Spiritia? A speicfic type of energy that hacks through other's software & inspire's them to get along better, while invigorating them at the same time.

Hell, Kawamori's whole direction from Plus & 7 onwards was to blur the lines between man & machine, to what ends we've yet to see. Maybe it's more of a commentary on the way things are already headed, presented in a much more dynamic mecha way than Ghost in the Shell. But the basic principles are the same they've always been, fighting begets more fighting, and compromise & understanding are still the best ways at achieving peace.

[RedWolf]

or whatever goddamn voodoo Sara used to levitate rocks in her birthday suit in Macross Zero

It was the Birdman head doing that. When 11 year old Mao gave air-kissed Shin in front of the head Sara sense it like a green monster rousing.

Truthfully both sisters are jealous of each other. Shin though isn't into being a Pedo chose the older sister.

I' like to point out something I've notice since we are also including contrast and comparison with the main continuity.

Macross II showed what SDFM Kaifun always accused the military. Taking too much power over civilians.

It is obvious over their control of the media and propaganda. Hibiki may have been a dirtbag sensationalist newsie but when UN Spacy doctored the report and got Hibiki in custody it was a violation of the Freedom of Speech.

This is in contrast to Global who let the media run free on the Macross, even defying the UN Forces higher ups in broadcasts.

[dreamweaver13]

It is obvious over their control of the media and propaganda. Hibiki may have been a dirtbag sensationalist newsie but when UN Spacy doctored the report and got Hibiki in custody it was a violation of the Freedom of Speech.

This is in contrast to Global who let the media run free on the Macross, even defying the UN Forces higher ups in broadcasts.

I always got the feeling that Global was using the media. i think macross city aboard the SDF was generally a military regime. what Global says, goes. so he used the media to keep the citizens calm, making announcements, hell, even airing an inter-species wedding.

In MII timeline, now that civilization has settled down and has returned (preumably) to a sort-of democracy, we see the old ways and the old sins (i.e news blackouts, manipulation of free press) come back to the surface.

[Seto Kaiba]

You could consider it magic, or you could go the other route. The Protoculture essentially figured out how to deconstruct, re-assemble, and shape, the building blocks of life any way they saw fit. What you are considering "magic,' is little more to PC science than upgrading a machine.

Y'know, if they had actually pursued that route and tried to quantify spirita scientifically like they did with the fold-wave stomach flu (v-type bacteria/virus?), I probably would've liked Macross 7 a lot more, but all we really got was (´ﾟ∀ﾟ)つ IT IS DELICIOUS SPIRITUAL ENERGY YOU MUST EAT IT, and no further explanation that that. I don't think you can really go that route with spirita or the v-type bacteria since they're both supposedly naturally-occurring, non-technological macguffins.

It doesn't really address my core concern, that there really is no ongoing threat in the main continuity like there is in Macross II. By the end of the series, the alien menace has seen the errors of its ways, packed up, and shipped off to Unspecifiedistan, never to be seen again. While there are, at least in theory, hundreds upon hundreds of Zentradi fleets still hunting the Supervision Army across the galaxy, they all seem to have gone on holiday and haven't troubled humanity since.

The ongoing Zentradi threat is one of the aspects I love best about the Macross II universe... the Zentradi and Meltrandi don't just fade into history. They're still a very real, recurring threat clear through to 2082, with at least three more major invasions that decimate the U.N. Spacy's forces, and a whole host of minor skirmishes. It really drives home the significance of the Zentradi threat, the mind-boggling scope of the Protoculture's fall, and the relative insignificance of humanity in the grand scheme of things... to say nothing of the power of music, and the importance of compromise, understanding, etc.

It doesn't hurt my feelings any that the prequels gave Komilia the spotlight as an adult, or that they showed the U.N. Spacy while it was still picking up the pieces in the wake of Space War 1, two things that main-continuity Macross never really did. Heck, come to think of it, the VF-4 getting the spotlight was pretty damn cool too.

Edited September 18, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[RedWolf]

Y'know, if they had actually pursued that route and tried to quantify spirita scientifically like they did with the fold-wave stomach flu (v-type bacteria/virus?), I probably would've liked Macross 7 a lot more, but all we really got was (´ﾟ∀ﾟ)つ IT IS DELICIOUS SPIRITUAL ENERGY YOU MUST EAT IT, and no further explanation that that. I don't think you can really go that route with spirita or the v-type bacteria since they're both supposedly naturally-occurring, non-technological macguffins.

Well you think about it Spiritia like mana or a lifeforce but when Doc Chiba explained the Sound Booster tech it has SD energy hardware you're likely to find in a Macross cannon. Some sort of feedback and amplification function for it to work. I suspect this SD energy is the same one PBB was derived from when the Macross lost its Fold engines.

In fact he did modify a Battle 7's Macross cannon gunship to be the Sound Buster Cannon to seal and the Protodevlin.

[Zinjo]

You know, i really didn't accept Macross II until the last episode of Frontier. Following through that series with its inclusion of the Global, and the various custom imigration fleets finally opened a window in Macross canon for II to exist. To be honest, the when Grace sent the Vajra after the various fleets (specifically the Macross 11 fleet), I initially thought it said "Macross II," and something clicked.

My main problem with II (aside from the total retread of DYRL), the culture park didn't make sense, the funky changes to the Macross didn't make sense, the Zentradi hulls "still" being used as buildings didn't make sense, the Macross Gunships didn't fit in anywhere else, and the detatchment from any indication that there had been a colonization program (like in FB 2012) just didn't add up.

Now with Frontier, we have the SDF-4 Global, which would also for a randomly designated SDF-somethin' Macross II. We have indipendantly funded custom fleets (Macross II pioneered the NUNS name in Macross btw) with individually designed kites (Macross II's NUNS had their own logo), and custom ship design asthetics (like Battle Galaxy) which can explain away strangeness like the Macross's full body canon, and the half Zentradi oversized Macross gunships. Fold Fault's explain away the detatchment from distant Earth & colony fleets (i.e. the inability to call in for backup), and the Galaxy network can attribute the existence of Riding in Your Valkyrie, Only Your Friends, & other Macross II siongs existing in other Macross series (though their origins would place them in Macross 7 era instead of later Macross II era). Stuff like the VF-2SS & Metal Siren can again be attributed to custom fleet designs.

So while Macross II still is far from my favorite Macross, I can finally accept it as "a" true Macross series.

Hmmm, so much of that sounds SO familiar....

[Zinjo]

It was the Birdman head doing that. When 11 year old Mao gave air-kissed Shin in front of the head Sara sense it like a green monster rousing.

Truthfully both sisters are jealous of each other. Shin though isn't into being a Pedo chose the older sister.

Actually culturally, Mao was a viable love interest for Shin, in Japanese culture, not Western culture.

I' like to point out something I've notice since we are also including contrast and comparison with the main continuity.

Macross II showed what SDFM Kaifun always accused the military. Taking too much power over civilians.

It is obvious over their control of the media and propaganda. Hibiki may have been a dirtbag sensationalist newsie but when UN Spacy doctored the report and got Hibiki in custody it was a violation of the Freedom of Speech.

This is in contrast to Global who let the media run free on the Macross, even defying the UN Forces higher ups in broadcasts.

Well if one retcons Mac II into a stranded colony fleet, extended martial law would be a possible outcome of such an event.

[Zinjo]

It's not really accepting when you have to rewrite half the script to get it to work.

Yes, you'd have to retcon the Mac II story to include it into the Nue continuity. However, I don't have any issues with a retcon and the original co-existing since one takes its story from the old continuity pre-Macross Plus and a new one would be shoe horned into the Nue continuity.

Both would be viable stories in their respective universes...

[Zinjo]

It doesn't really address my core concern, that there really is no ongoing threat in the main continuity like there is in Macross II. By the end of the series, the alien menace has seen the errors of its ways, packed up, and shipped off to Unspecifiedistan, never to be seen again. While there are, at least in theory, hundreds upon hundreds of Zentradi fleets still hunting the Supervision Army across the galaxy, they all seem to have gone on holiday and haven't troubled humanity since.

The ongoing Zentradi threat is one of the aspects I love best about the Macross II universe... the Zentradi and Meltrandi don't just fade into history. They're still a very real, recurring threat clear through to 2082, with at least three more major invasions that decimate the U.N. Spacy's forces, and a whole host of minor skirmishes. It really drives home the significance of the Zentradi threat, the mind-boggling scope of the Protoculture's fall, and the relative insignificance of humanity in the grand scheme of things... to say nothing of the power of music, and the importance of compromise, understanding, etc.

I think its a matter of focus really.

The Mac II producers chose to focus on the Earth, its reconstruction and the continued threat posed by the Zentradi fleets, while the Nue continuity focused more on a macro view of the universe, with new species, new federal problems for the UNG and the like.

As far as we know the Zentradi are still a continuous threat, particularly to emigration fleets, however the focus of the shows are not on the Zentradi threats as much as they are on NEW threats and issues encountered.

In Mac II Zentradi fleets manage to find the Earth at least twice, whereas in the Nue continuity the Earth really isn't on the Zentradi radar considering the size of the galaxy and their own war with the SA.

[Vepariga]

IMO,

MACROSS II

Pros:

Good Death animations of some mecha

Good songs

SDF rises and fires again

Cons:

Uninteresting characters

Lacking story

poor dialouge

boring scenes

[anime52k8]

That's one of the things I really love about the Macross II continuity... the Zentradi and the Meltrandi are still a very real threat to humanity, what with the major and minor fleet engagements every few years from 2010 to 2055, at least one of which did horrendous near-SW1-level damage to the U.N. Spacy, and a couple more after that.

there's a lot of things I don't like about II, but this is actually one of my biggest problems with it. Rather than feeling like the world is making some kind of progress it just sort of repeats the same DYRL? format over and over. In a way it feels a lot like robotech, where it Just one massive army of evil aliens after another roles up, rapes the military and nearly wipes out the human race.

what I like about the main continuity is that with each installment you get a new angle on the macross universe. rather than retread the same old ground in a different time, each new SK macross production has explored new concepts and gone in a different direction while still retaining the important essence of Macross (the indomitable human spirit, music as a symbol for that spirit, a focus on characters and awesome transforming robot-jets.)

The ongoing Zentradi threat is one of the aspects I love best about the Macross II universe... the Zentradi and Meltrandi don't just fade into history. They're still a very real, recurring threat clear through to 2082, with at least three more major invasions that decimate the U.N. Spacy's forces, and a whole host of minor skirmishes. It really drives home the significance of the Zentradi threat, the mind-boggling scope of the Protoculture's fall, and the relative insignificance of humanity in the grand scheme of things... to say nothing of the power of music, and the importance of compromise, understanding, etc.

But the way I see it, going this direction sort of flies in the face of what macross is really about. The way I see it Macross isn't about the zentraid or protoculture or the insignificance of humanity, it's about exactly the opposite; Macross is about how significant humans are. Macross is about how humans may not be the most advanced or physically powerful force out there; but because of our spirit, passion and drive humanity will always be the most unstoppable force in the galaxy.

It doesn't really address my core concern, that there really is no ongoing threat in the main continuity like there is in Macross II. By the end of the series, the alien menace has seen the errors of its ways, packed up, and shipped off to Unspecifiedistan, never to be seen again. While there are, at least in theory, hundreds upon hundreds of Zentradi fleets still hunting the Supervision Army across the galaxy, they all seem to have gone on holiday and haven't troubled humanity since.

Really it get's kind of boring if all you do is get nearly wiped out by the same baddies over and over again. And anyways I think having each series end with a definitive win is part of the whole true strength of humanity central concept. Rather than saying "damn we really dogged the bullet on that one." it's saying "We kicked down the door and shouted 'We're gonna' make it, and you can either join us or get out of our way!'"

there's a certain hot bloodedness to SK macross that's just lacking in MacII.

Like I said, my problem with the main continuity's use of song as a weapon isn't the song itself, it's the various flavors of magic attached to it in later generation Macross shows... like Macross 7's spirita, the fold wave-emitting stomach flu from Macross Frontier, or whatever goddamn voodoo Sara used to levitate rocks in her birthday suit in Macross Zero.

Y'know, if they had actually pursued that route and tried to quantify spirita scientifically like they did with the fold-wave stomach flu (v-type bacteria/virus?), I probably would've liked Macross 7 a lot more, but all we really got was (´ﾟ∀ﾟ)つ IT IS DELICIOUS SPIRITUAL ENERGY YOU MUST EAT IT, and no further explanation that that. I don't think you can really go that route with spirita or the v-type bacteria since they're both supposedly naturally-occurring, non-technological macguffins.

I think the less scientific you get the better with this kind of thing. In fact I think they got a little too scientific in 7 where they're trying quantify Basras hot bloodedness with standardized units. I like a little bit of metaphysical mystery to things, keeping it less technical and more magical. Music is the form that the inner strength each person possesses takes in Macross. That inner strength isn't something you can honestly quantify or explain, it just exists and it's more powerful than any weapon you can build.

And the more you try to quantify things the more you suck the fun out of it. That's something that bugs me about many gundam shows, where they take themselves to seriously and have to make everything so cut and dry.

this is probebly a good point to mention that I love Gurren Laggan and I think Mobile Fighter G Gundam is the best gundam series ever.

[VF5SS]

HEY!

You do realize Nexx had maybe 10 lines of a dialog during the entire OVA right? There's almost nothing he does that couldn't have been done by a nondescript background character. I guess he serves as a bridge to the action scenes but even him being in those Valkyries doesn't save them from feeling totally disjointed from the main characters.

Oh and who said they found the use of railguns refreshing? All that means is the laser beams are now blue instead of pink.

[RDClip]

I like to take the official stance and pretend that MacII never existed. The exact same thing happened to the old Metal Gear franchise. Anyone here that is a big Metal Gear fan will have heard about Snake's Revenge, a terrible sequel to the original MG that was produced without the involvement of Hideo Kojima. Now Snake's Revenge is treated as it never existed. It's funny, when big companies try to make a sequel just for the money and name value and exclude the original creator, it always sucks.

Everyone just ask yourselves, if Macross II didn't have the macross name attached to it, would you consider it a good anime? I say no, i can at least say that the other Macross productions have at least been good and watchable.

[Seto Kaiba]

In Mac II Zentradi fleets manage to find the Earth at least twice, whereas in the Nue continuity the Earth really isn't on the Zentradi radar considering the size of the galaxy and their own war with the SA.

Actually... they managed to find the Earth at least four times with large-scale fleets, and an unspecified but significant number of times with smaller fleet strengths. The major ones were in 2009-2010, 2036, 2037, 2054, and possibly 2082. There's a whole host of minor ones between 2010 and 2030.

Everyone just ask yourselves, if Macross II didn't have the macross name attached to it, would you consider it a good anime? I say no, i can at least say that the other Macross productions have at least been good and watchable.

I'm inclined to think the opposite... that had it not followed directly on from the awesomeness that was Macross: Do You Remember Love?, it would've been received a lot better. It was, after all, a show with an average-ish story and many good aspects, trying to succeed to the title of a movie that was exceptional in most respects.

Edited September 18, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[thankheaven]

The show was okay but im not a fan of the VF designs. The VF-2SS is okay at best but the rest are rather generic and uninspiring. The Metal Siren is probably the worst of all Macross designs in my opinion. It doesn't feel like it belongs in macross at all.

[anime52k8]

I'm inclined to think the opposite... that had it not followed directly on from the awesomeness that was Macross: Do You Remember Love?, it would've been received a lot better. It was, after all, a show with an average-ish story and many good aspects, trying to succeed to the title of a movie that was exceptional in most respects.

I feel that if Macross II wasn't related to macross, people just wouldn't care about it. II wasn't bad but it also wasn't good, it was just mediocre. Had it not been part of macross it would have just faded into obsurity as another late 80's/early 90's OVA that was there but didn't really do much.

The story was fairly generic and shallow, the characters were all two dimensional and boring, the capital ships and enemy mecha were all forgetable, etc. etc. Even the character designs aren't all that great. I like Mikimoto and think the characters all look good but there's nothing special about them; they're all kind of generic and (except for Ishtar) among my least favorite Mikimoto characters (My favorite of his characters are Misa (via DYRL?) and Eve From Megazone 23 by the way). also I don't like the uniforms or the Flight suits, and I hate the fact Mikimoto used the same style flight suits in Mac7

The only thing that stands out are the spacy mecha, and for me that's because they all look awful. The destroids all look atrocious and the valks range from awkward to ass ugly. The valks actually remind me a lot of the Ridiculous, pointy Gundams from Hathaway's flash. (I don't like the VF-2SS at all, I've gone into detail why I don't several times)

Edited September 18, 2009 by anime52k8

[Morpheus]

Macross II pro:

- VF-2SS

- VF-2J

- Macross Cannon

- Wendy Ryder

Macross II con:

- everything not mentioned above

[MastaEgg]

Is there any difference between the movie and OVA versions?

[Ginrai]

Is there any difference between the movie and OVA versions?

The Macross II movie is just the OVA with the OP/EDs edited out except for the very first OP and the very last ED.

[Oihan]

Regardless of this series being given the 'alternative universe' status...what do people actually think to Macross II?? - personally, I really liked it, but hated the fact that 6 episodes just wasn't enough to flesh out the characters and story line that the makers attempted.

I'm new to the forum, so I don't know if this is covered regularly or even at all, but curious to know, because there's a lot of Macross 7/F/0 etc chat about at the moment.

After SDF Macross, Macross II is my favorite. Macross TV ignited the flame, but Macross II is what fueled my love of Macross as a whole. I love the characters, the mecha, the story itself...and I especially love the music. I, like you, dislike the fact that there were so few episodes. I would love it if they revisited Macross II...but I don't see that ever happening. I'm sure I'm more likely to get hit by lightning or die in a plane crash than I am to see Macross II be revisited.

Some will argue that Macross II is nothing but a rehash of DYRL?...which I can't help but disagree with. There are several differences between the two in regards to the story. They may share similar plot devices...but that's a moot argument if you ask me - I won't get into that though. Anyway....

[Gubaba]

After SDF Macross, Macross II is my favorite. Macross TV ignited the flame, but Macross II is what fueled my love of Macross as a whole. I love the characters, the mecha, the story itself...and I especially love the music. I, like you, dislike the fact that there were so few episodes.

Again, there's always the novels...

[yellowlightman]

Again, there's always the novels...

And the comic sequel!

[Agent ONE]

When it came out I was just DYING for more Macross. Now that some time has past I can say its no DYRL but entertaining. I probably watch DYRL 4 times a year. I probably watch Macross II once every 4 years.

[Oihan]

Again, there's always the novels...

Novels? What's a novel? Who reads anyway? I swear, some people. It's all about the animation and the eye candy!

[Gubaba]

Novels? What's a novel? Who reads anyway? I swear, some people. It's all about the animation and the eye candy!

Bah, kids these days...can't be bothered to look back ONE SINGLE PAGE...

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...st&p=789333

[Oihan]

Bah, kids these days...can't be bothered to look back ONE SINGLE PAGE...

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...st&p=789333

Haha. Well, if you end up sharing your translations, I'll definitely be looking foward to reading them, Gubaba!

[Gubaba]

Haha. Well, if you end up sharing your translations, I'll definitely be looking foward to reading them, Gubaba!

I will, but it'll be a couple of years at least.

I'm nearly, NEARLY done with "My Fair Minmay." Then it's on to "Misa Hayase: White Reminiscences." Meanwhile, I'm still working on the SDFM novelization trilogy. After that comes the DYRL novel, and THEN I'll get to Macross II (and Plus).

[Oihan]

I will, but it'll be a couple of years at least.

I'm nearly, NEARLY done with "My Fair Minmay." Then it's on to "Misa Hayase: White Reminiscences." Meanwhile, I'm still working on the SDFM novelization trilogy. After that comes the DYRL novel, and THEN I'll get to Macross II (and Plus).

You sure have your work cut out for ya. That's cool though that you're willing to take the time to do all of that, especially if you're going to be sharing your translations with the rest of us. Cheers!

[MilSpex]

Macross II : `The Movie` was never an official Japan release was it? It was just a Manga Video hack job right?

[VF5SS]

The movie is just all six episodes played back to back with the OP and ED sequences edited out.

[MilSpex]

The movie is just all six episodes played back to back with the OP and ED sequences edited out.

er, that wasn`t my question. I know its what you wrote, I`ve seen it.