Macross II

[Mohawk]

Regardless of this series being given the 'alternative universe' status...what do people actually think to Macross II?? - personally, I really liked it, but hated the fact that 6 episodes just wasn't enough to flesh out the characters and story line that the makers attempted.

I'm new to the forum, so I don't know if this is covered regularly or even at all, but curious to know, because there's a lot of Macross 7/F/0 etc chat about at the moment.

[eugimon]

thought it was an interesting universe... hated the characters, the story and most of the mecha. Pretty much only enjoyed the music and the VF-2ss

[Gubaba]

This is ground that has been covered often, but it's been a while, so maybe this thread will stay open...

Anyway, there's no Macross that I really hate, but Macross II is the one I probably feel most indifferent towards, despite having one of the main writers of SDFM and DYRL, and the always-yummy Mikimoto character designs.

The mecha design never really grabbed me...and that's kind of the way I feel about the whole thing. I don't find it offensive or rage-inspiring, and I think it has a number of things going for it, but I don't really enjoy it all that much overall.

[Mohawk]

I agree that there may have been a problem with the mecha - a lot of potential that just wasn't achieved - the super armour/FAST packs in my opinion actually ruin the vf-2ss and the metal siren which without the augmentation I actually quite like too.

[Gubaba]

Regardless of this series being given the 'alternative universe' status...what do people actually think to Macross II?? - personally, I really liked it, but hated the fact that 6 episodes just wasn't enough to flesh out the characters and story line that the makers attempted.

I'm new to the forum, so I don't know if this is covered regularly or even at all, but curious to know, because there's a lot of Macross 7/F/0 etc chat about at the moment.

By the way, if you're interested in seeing more of the characters, there are five novels based on the series. The first two novelize the six-episode OVA, and the next three books carry the story further.

They're in Japanese only, but I'm planning on getting around to translating them...eventually...

[Mohawk]

By the way, if you're interested in seeing more of the characters, there are five novels based on the series. The first two novelize the six-episode OVA, and the next three books carry the story further.

They're in Japanese only, but I'm planning on getting around to translating them...eventually...

wow! thanks! I was only aware of the Viz comics - living in England, we got the Kiseki video releases and not a lot else! Do you have the publishers name off hand? I'll try and search for them.

[Gubaba]

wow! thanks! I was only aware of the Viz comics - living in England, we got the Kiseki video releases and not a lot else! Do you have the publishers name off hand? I'll try and search for them.

They're long out out of print, published by Kadokawa.

Used copies are readily available (and cheap!) on Amazon.co.jp, but they won't ship used books to other countries, unfortunately. Sometimes, they turn up on Ebay as well.

[nexxstrait]

I love Macross II. The mecha, the story, the characters, the fact that Kawamori was not involved (uh!), Mikimoto's designs. Sylvie for me remains the best female character of the Macross universe. Oh, and there's Nexx in his Metal Siren who kiks ass!. What I don't like is the the drop down in animation quality of some episodes, especially the first half of #6. I would have liked it to be a longer series, too.

[Seto Kaiba]

Regardless of this series being given the 'alternative universe' status...what do people actually think to Macross II?? - personally, I really liked it, but hated the fact that 6 episodes just wasn't enough to flesh out the characters and story line that the makers attempted.

I really enjoyed Macross II: Lovers Again. It's one of my favorite Macross titles.

The six-episode OVA format was definitely too short for the show's creators to fully realize the story, so it gets a bit rushed towards the end. Nevertheless, it was the last Macross show to really carry on the themes and tone of the original series and DYRL. For me, the prequels are also particularly interesting, since they depict what I feel is a more believable post-SW1 Macross universe where the Zentradi and Meltrandi still pose a very real threat. The universe as a whole is influenced a bit more strongly by Gundam than the "main continuity", which I think actually works pretty well for the story. Mikimoto's character designs for the series were, I think, some of his best work (and I think he particularly liked the flightsuits he did for the prequels, since he keeps reusing them in main-timeline Macross manga). The mechanical designs done by Koichi Ohata, Kazumi Fujita, and co. are my favorite designs in all of Macross... particularly the VF-2SS Valkyrie II.

Really, I think the biggest factors going against Macross II were that it was following on from Macross: Do You Remember Love?, which for many fans is the Macross gold standard, and that because of that, the average story was not as well-received as it would've been otherwise.

'course, I've put a lot of time and effort into digging up all the esoterica about the Macross II alternate universe, since the English-language publications really didn't cover most of the interesting stuff. For a while now I've been working on a website to collect all that rare and little-known information into a single, comprehensive reference collection covering the entire alternate universe. It's still a ways from being complete, but thanks to the MW community, I've made some great strides over the past year or so. (I've also put in a bit of work for the Macross Mecha Manual's Macross II section)

Edited September 17, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[nexxstrait]

For a while now I've been working on a website to collect all that rare and little-known information into a single, comprehensive reference collection covering the entire alternate universe. It's still a ways from being complete, but thanks to the MW community, I've made some great strides over the past year or so. (I've also put in a bit of work for the Macross Mecha Manual's Macross II section)

And I'm eagerly awaiting!

Edited September 17, 2009 by nexxstrait

[eugimon]

I really enjoyed Macross II: Lovers Again. It's one of my favorite Macross titles.

The six-episode OVA format was definitely too short for the show's creators to fully realize the story, so it gets a bit rushed towards the end. Nevertheless, it was the last Macross show to really carry on the themes and tone of the original series and DYRL. For me, the prequels are also particularly interesting, since they depict what I feel is a more believable post-SW1 Macross universe where the Zentradi and Meltrandi still pose a very real threat. The universe as a whole is influenced a bit more strongly by Gundam than the "main continuity", which I think actually works pretty well for the story. Mikimoto's character designs for the series were, I think, some of his best work (and I think he particularly liked the flightsuits he did for the prequels, since he keeps reusing them in main-timeline Macross manga). The mechanical designs done by Koichi Ohata, Kazumi Fujita, and co. are my favorite designs in all of Macross... particularly the VF-2SS Valkyrie II.

Really, I think the biggest factors going against Macross II were that it was following on from Macross: Do You Remember Love?, which for many fans is the Macross gold standard, and that because of that, the average story was not as well-received as it would've been otherwise.

'course, I've put a lot of time and effort into digging up all the esoterica about the Macross II alternate universe, since the English-language publications really didn't cover most of the interesting stuff. For a while now I've been working on a website to collect all that rare and little-known information into a single, comprehensive reference collection covering the entire alternate universe. It's still a ways from being complete, but thanks to the MW community, I've made some great strides over the past year or so. (I've also put in a bit of work for the Macross Mecha Manual's Macross II section)

It carries on the themes, though I would argue Mac 7 also carries on theme of cultural integration and pacifism, but it doesn't really fit thematically with the ending of SDF:M and especially with the DYRL ending. Those endings really set up the idea of human/zentradi expansion and cultural rebirth while Mac II shows an inexplicable turtling and militarization of humanity. It's an interesting idea and ripe for drama but it's understandable why fans have a hard time with it, it's such a paradigm shift and one that's not really explained well in the show itself.

[RDClip]

I didn't like Mac II at all. i found it to be a boring cliche, predictable sci-fi anime with 2d characters and an uninteresting plot. And WTF does the SDF-01 have macross cannons in its legs???

[Gubaba]

I was about to (kinda) answer your question, Nexxstrait...but then I realized it was no longer there.

Anyway, I haven't read the novels yet, so I can't summarize them, unfortunately.

MW member Lynn2009 gave a brief summary a while back, saying the stories involved a Chinese mafia run by someone purporting to be Minmay's grandson. And Seto pointed out an odd illustration in Book 5, showing Ishtar holding a baby...but skimming the page, I'm pretty sure the baby isn't hers.

[nexxstrait]

I was about to (kinda) answer [...] I'm pretty sure the baby isn't hers.

Thanks! I guess we all have to wait for Seito webpage on MII.

[Zinjo]

I have to agree with Seto on this with respect to the OVA format not lending itself well to what appears to be a much longer story. One could resonably criticize the writers for not distilling the story down to its most essential elements to fit the format, but that's another debate.

I liked the mecha designs as well, with the distinct exception of the Metal Siren. I found that fighter blocky and fairly unimaginative (a project I'd expect Miyatake or Kawamori would have done better with). The VF-2SS being a sleek and sexy fighter was clearly a derivative of the VF-1 and VF-4, having several elements of both as well as original ones. The use of rail guns as opposed to beam guns or chemical projectiles I also found refreshing.

The human capital ship designs were much like the Metal Siren, blocky and unimaginative. They so very much reminded me of the late 70's, early 80's designs of capital ships in anime. As Seto has said strongly influenced by Gundam a decade earlier.

I too didn't care much for the leg cannons on the Macross. Some might disagree, but it made logical sense to me for the bridge section to act like a life raft of sorts. Initially it struck me as odd, but with time it made logical sense for such an upgrade to the ship to exist. The cannon bursts to signal the detection of approaching ships was never really explained, since the SA's booby trap was disarmed after it initially fired. If it was some sort of territorial beacon to the military units of an impending attack, that was never explained.

As an alternative universe, where humanity took a different path from that of the Nue continuity I found intriguing. The turn about of an enemy using song in battle as well, truly excited me. It tossed out the question of "What if your enemy used the same tricks you used, what would you do then?"

Ingus was quite 2 dimensional for a villan and the aspects of the Alus Legend were not fully realized or understood in the final act, IMO. The Gina / Nexx / Hibiki love triangle was very weak. I would have preferred they focus more on the Hibiki/Gena/Ishatar triangle instead of wasting screen time with Nexx. Nexx was the typical hero mentor character for Gena, tossing in a romantic sub-plot between them simply didn't work. Hibiki's character development was far too rushed and maybe they should have gone with a simpler motivator for him. Gina was hardly fleshed out at all. Her attraction to Hibiki, the reasons why she put herself in harms way in a Valkyrie, etc... The best developed characters had to be Ishtar and Feff, though Ishtar had the most of the two. You understood them the most and why they did what they did.

I enjoyed it and have to say I prefer it to Macross 7. Mac 7 was a show which had a short meaty story, that ran one season too long...

Edited September 17, 2009 by Zinjo

[Brand]

[...] The turn about of an enemy using song in battle as well, truly excited me. It tossed out the question of "What if your enemy used the same tricks you used, what would you do then?"

I totally agree with this point. It's one of the elements of Macross II that I for one deserve to be explored in the Macross universe proper, particularly if incorporated into an explanation of what happened to Megaroad-01. (My personal opinion there; I know plenty of people don't want further exporation of the Megaroad's fate, including Kawamori-sensei himself. I'm just expressing a thought. Don't flame me! xD) Like many others I also loved the VF-2 Valkyries, and while the updated Destroid designs didn't impress me as a whole it was good to see them get as much of an upgrade as the Valkyries themselves; by Macross Frontier I do believe only the Tomahawk line has seen any improvement in the form of the Cheyenne. And come on; the six-rail-cannon-sporting Monster looked like pure destruction on legs for the second or so of screen time it had. Much more impressive than the VB-6 Koenig.

I also have to give credit for having a main protagonist from outside the military/paramilitary industry as well, even if Hibiki could be a douche sometimes. (And I've only ever seen the old English dub, so I'm sure I'm running on a flawed perception of him.) I did like the alternative view of the war from a journalist's perspective and his struggle to disclose events as they truly were rather than through the military-controlled spin of the media at large.

And anyone who doesn't like Ishtar needs electroshock therapy until they're cured of that particular insanity.

Unfortunately it did have plenty of drawbacks. As people have said already, the time constraints of the OVA format hurt the development of story and characters alike. If it had been given even a thirteen-episode proper series run, and admittedly more attention paid to keeping a fresh approach to things, MII could have been a really worthwhile sequel as opposed to needing to be shunted aside as an alternate universe story. I'm extremely interested to find out what happened in the novel-based continuation of the story, so I'll be waiting on Gubaba's translation efforts no matter how long it may be in coming.

Edited September 18, 2009 by Brand

[Gubaba]

I totally agree with this point. It's one of the elements of Macross II that I for one deserve to be explored in the Macross universe proper...

It did. In the last couple of episodes of Frontier.

[dreamweaver13]

Let's try this again...

It's my least favorite Macross. even before i found out it was retconned out of existence, i didn't really like it that much.

Macross II was amazing in the sense that it was a sequel to the original SDFM. At the time, there was nothing else. But on its own, Macross II didn't really offer anything much. It felt like a blatant rip-off of the original, without its original spirit. sure, every subsequent macross followed a certain teamplate (music, mecha, love triangle), but none followed the stereotypes as unimaginatively as MII. It's like a checklist.

Civilian pacifist who knows how to pilot, and gets swept into the war? check.

Idol singer to be the leading lady of the civilian? check.

Military girl who is initially the civilian's antagonist, but eventually sweeps him off his feet? check.

new alien race attacks? check.

idol singer saves the day, but military girl gets the guy? check.

Despite the stereotypes, MII might have worked if it still captured the spirit of SDFM. But i felt it didn't. i don't know what felt off. maybe it was that the love triangle aspect was too forced to be believable. the threat of warfare was too weak. or maybe the characters just weren't developed enough. i just didn't get that same vibe that i felt when i watched SDFM. can't explain for now, since i'm relying on my memory of the series. maybe, if i watch MII again, i could pinpoint what's wrong about it.

As for the story's progression, episode 1 showed a little promise. but as it went along, things went downhill for me. and to make it worse, i have this lingering image of a destroyed Macross, and its surviving, magical floating bridge. what the f**k was with that??

[Gubaba]

Let's try this again...

It's my least favorite Macross. even before i found out it was retconned out of existence, i didn't really like it that much.

Macross II was amazing in the sense that it was a sequel to the original SDFM. At the time, there was nothing else. But on its own, Macross II didn't really offer anything much. It felt like a blatant rip-off of the original, without its original spirit. sure, every subsequent macross followed a certain teamplate (music, mecha, love triangle), but none followed the stereotypes as unimaginatively as MII. It's like a checklist.

Y'know, when Macross II first came out, I was really, REALLY excited. But after watching the first VHS tape, I felt really, REALLY let down.

I wonder how much of that was due to the fact that, as you said, there was nothing else at the time. No Plus, no 7, no Zero, no Frontier. SDFM had been so enthralling, DYRL had been so beautiful, and FB2012 had been so promising that anything less than an exquisite diamond of a series would've been disappointing.

At the time, I watched the first VHS tape (episodes 1 and 2) and bought five of the ten comic book issues. And I found I really didn't care to see the rest.

Much later, right before Macross Zero Vol. 1 came out, I finally got around to revisiting the series (in the *ahem* "movie" form), and found that, without the heavy burden of following up a true classic of anime, it really wasn't bad. I didn't like it as much as Plus, or even as much as 7, but I no longer hated it.

I will admit that I have started dozing off during episode 4 on at least three separate occasions, but that's probably my own fault.

[nexxstrait]

instead of wasting screen time with Nexx.

HEY!

[anotheran]

I saw Macross II when I was very young. I thought I was watching some hentai. I was soo wondering when Hibiki was going to bed Ishtar. I was so shocked at the end when nothing happened at all.

Now I found out it was Macross II... dang

Edited September 18, 2009 by anotheran

[Dax415]

dont really understand the dislike of macross II, but i really liked it. there isn't some idiot flying around singing to the enemy and the robots do not have faces on them. the vf-2ss is enormously cool and there are a significant number of capital ships and support mecha. i couldn't say its the greatest macross, as the story could have been alot better if they made it a longer series.

[mitch]

When it came out in the UK it was on a dub-only VHS I believe. I watched it again last Christmas, and I feel that the pacing was a bit rushed in places, there wasn't nearly enough mecha action or dog-fights, and some of the voices were reeeeealy annoying. Also, after about episode 3 or 4 the animation department either ran into budgeting problems or just stopped caring as the quality takes a serious dive by the end of it, and Ishtar's big song near at the final battle was also dubbed over (not completely mind you, you hear the first few lines in the original language, then when it kicks in it is suddenly in english and being sung by a singer who sounds like someone's drunken Aunt at a Christmas karaoke competition). Lame.

Despite it's flaws, there were aspects of it that I really liked - manipulating of the Zentradi through song, UN Spacy is portrayed as an oppressive military presence, Female Valk pilots, Ishtar's reaction to heavy metal, and the songs were generally okay (apart from the one I described above, obviously).

[thegunny]

Would watch II over Plus any day (let the flailing begin )

[Brand]

It did. In the last couple of episodes of Frontier.

True, and I'd never take anything away from Sheryl and "Ranka"'s song-battle of wills! But I meant more as a central concern throughout a series, as opposed to coming into play at the climax.

[RedWolf]

As said cool designs but the story needed to be a bit expounded.

Loved the Mikimoto character design on Ishtar and the Macross Cannon.

I went WTF on the modifications on the DYRL Macross.

Why did they place place beam emmiters there that is likely to tear it apart?

The story for the most part is a DYRL Climax rehash.

[Zinjo]

dont really understand the dislike of macross II, but i really liked it. there isn't some idiot flying around singing to the enemy and the robots do not have faces on them. the vf-2ss is enormously cool and there are a significant number of capital ships and support mecha. i couldn't say its the greatest macross, as the story could have been alot better if they made it a longer series.

I believe that is where it failed.

Gubaba has a point though, that anything coming after DYRL was going to be treated like the rebound girlfriend. So Mac II had high expectations to fulfill coming out of the gate and then didn't...

It would have had greater longevity had it's story been tighter or the episodes been extended from 6 to possibly 8 or more. The writers couldn't be brutally honest about the story and were far too attached to their initial outline, even when they realized they were running out of time. They were writing a limited episode OVA like a full blown TV season and it just didn't work. The elements were there, the premise solid, but execution was lacking.

The animation didn't help either. Sometimes great animation will allow an audience to be more forgiving of a poor script, but I got the impression Bandai cut the budget and walked away from the series when they didn't see block buster numbers after the first few episodes were released.

I'd like to see a re-edit to tighten up the story to see if that would improve it.

Edited September 18, 2009 by Zinjo

[Einherjar]

I went WTF on the modifications on the DYRL Macross.

Maybe that's why the Macross Quarter was made. All Macross class ships after the original got bigger.

[Agent-GHQ]

Yamato seriously needs to make the VF-2ss toys in the 1/60 scale!

[Keith]

You know, i really didn't accept Macross II until the last episode of Frontier. Following through that series with its inclusion of the Global, and the various custom imigration fleets finally opened a window in Macross canon for II to exist. To be honest, the when Grace sent the Vajra after the various fleets (specifically the Macross 11 fleet), I initially thought it said "Macross II," and something clicked.

My main problem with II (aside from the total retread of DYRL), the culture park didn't make sense, the funky changes to the Macross didn't make sense, the Zentradi hulls "still" being used as buildings didn't make sense, the Macross Gunships didn't fit in anywhere else, and the detatchment from any indication that there had been a colonization program (like in FB 2012) just didn't add up.

Now with Frontier, we have the SDF-4 Global, which would also for a randomly designated SDF-somethin' Macross II. We have indipendantly funded custom fleets (Macross II pioneered the NUNS name in Macross btw) with individually designed kites (Macross II's NUNS had their own logo), and custom ship design asthetics (like Battle Galaxy) which can explain away strangeness like the Macross's full body canon, and the half Zentradi oversized Macross gunships. Fold Fault's explain away the detatchment from distant Earth & colony fleets (i.e. the inability to call in for backup), and the Galaxy network can attribute the existence of Riding in Your Valkyrie, Only Your Friends, & other Macross II siongs existing in other Macross series (though their origins would place them in Macross 7 era instead of later Macross II era). Stuff like the VF-2SS & Metal Siren can again be attributed to custom fleet designs.

So while Macross II still is far from my favorite Macross, I can finally accept it as "a" true Macross series.

[RedWolf]

But it has been pointed out that Macross II is a direct sequel to DYRL.

I see it as two independent timelines where Space War 1 each happened differently giving differing results .

Macross Flashback 2012, Macross 7, Macross M3, Macross Generation, Macross VF-X, Macross VF-X2 and Frontier directly decended from generally the SDFM TV timeline; While Macross 2036, Macross Eternal Love Song and Macross II Lovers Again descending from the Macross Do You Remember Love timeline.

Studio Nue universe has more Human-Zentradi + Zolan exploration of space while Big West universe Human-Zentradi-Meltrandi are always on a defensive stance.

[dreamweaver13]

But it has been pointed out that Macross II is a direct sequel to DYRL.

I see it as two independent timelines where Space War 1 each happened differently giving differing results .

Macross Flashback 2012, Macross 7, Macross M3, Macross Generation, Macross VF-X, Macross VF-X2 and Frontier directly decended from generally the SDFM TV timeline; While Macross 2036, Macross Eternal Love Song and Macross II Lovers Again descending from the Macross Do You Remember Love timeline.

Studio Nue universe has more Human-Zentradi + Zolan exploration of space while Big West universe Human-Zentradi-Meltrandi are always on a defensive stance.

Just to play the devil's advocate here, who says there has to be 2 timelines? given the time when MII took place (circa 2090s), you could stretch a bit and say that MII could still happen in the main timeline. sometime after Frontier, SDF1 Macross could become abandoned because it inexplicably started firing random blasts into space, earth civilization could regress into a cyber-punk style, the colonies could have become totally independent civilizations, thus giving the impression that earth is on its own again, the minmay defense gets used because of the success of music against the vajra (and not to mention a fully AI defense mech had its... glithces.). All i'm saying is, as much as i didn't like the state of the Macross Universe as depicted in Macross II, who's to say that it still couldn't happen by 2090?

[Keith]

Just to play the devil's advocate here, who says there has to be 2 timelines? given the time when MII took place (circa 2090s), you could stretch a bit and say that MII could still happen in the main timeline. sometime after Frontier, SDF1 Macross could become abandoned because it inexplicably started firing random blasts into space, earth civilization could regress into a cyber-punk style, the colonies could have become totally independent civilizations, thus giving the impression that earth is on its own again, the minmay defense gets used because of the success of music against the vajra (and not to mention a fully AI defense mech had its... glithces.). All i'm saying is, as much as i didn't like the state of the Macross Universe as depicted in Macross II, who's to say that it still couldn't happen by 2090?

Or more likely, the Macross in Macross II isn't the original, it's another production model like the SDF-04 Global, and the planet it takes place on wouldn't necessarily be Earth, but a distant outskirts colony world (that also happens to have a moon, and a planet named Jupiter..) This would also explain the necessity for the Culture park, instead of literally being said landmarks, they'd be recreations of them to give a sense of "home."

[Seto Kaiba]

Or more likely, the Macross in Macross II isn't the original, it's another production model like the SDF-04 Global, and the planet it takes place on wouldn't necessarily be Earth, but a distant outskirts colony world (that also happens to have a moon, and a planet named Jupiter..) This would also explain the necessity for the Culture park, instead of literally being said landmarks, they'd be recreations of them to give a sense of "home."

Personally, I would prefer to keep Macross II as far removed from the main continuity's various flavors of pseudo-magical singing as humanly possible. Let it be its own universe, and maybe they'll revisit it and flesh it out more once they run out of evil aliens for humanity to militarily neuter and then befriend with song in the main continuity.

Edited September 18, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[Keith]

Personally, I would prefer to keep Macross II as far removed from the main continuity's various flavors of pseudo-magical singing as humanly possible. Let it be its own universe, and maybe they'll revisit it and flesh it out more once they run out of evil aliens for humanity to militarily neuter and then befriend with song in the main continuity.

No, I say accept Macross II now!