VE-1/VT-1 Tail Section

[Cyclone Trooper]

There's always been a small detail about the VE-1 Elintseeker and the VT-1 Super Ostrich that's baffled me ever since the 80's: the oddball configuration of their tail sections with FAST Packs and in Gerwalk mode. One would think that, being a completely modular design, the VF-1 series chassis would largely have the same basic parts across all models, aside from the head units, grade of thruster engines, etc. But apparently not. The tail section of both of these "specialty" Valkyries does not fold up flush against the ventral hull like those of the VF-1S, 1J, 1D, or 1A. Instead, it sits at nearly a 45-degree angle with the tail fins still locked into "flight" position instead of folded up, then FAST Packs are attached. I'm not sure what the purpose of this particular configuration is...unless it was simply a design choice by Kawamori to further differentiate the VT/VE from the rest of the Valkyries appearing in DYRL.

Anyone mechanically-inclined or with a extensive background in VF-1 design history care to share possible reasons behind this strange design?

[jenius]

When Hikaru was flying around on Earth in the VT-1, did he fold the backpack all the way down in GERWALK?

[Cyclone Trooper]

Y'know, reviewing DYRL, you are correct. When Hikaru pitched the tent underneath the VT-1, it clearly shows the tail section/backpack in the same place as any other Valkyrie's would be. So apparently the weird 45-degree-angle configuration seems to be specifically for FAST Packs. But why, I wonder?

[eugimon]

elevation for the radar dish thing probably and since the VT is probably the trainer for the VE it makes sense to mount the FAST packs in the same configuration.

[sketchley]

The main reason: it's a two person cockpit - one that is "significantly" redesigned from the VF-1D.

Compare

http://www.new-un-spacy.com/sdfmacross/vf-...-1d-gerwalk.gif

vs

http://www.new-un-spacy.com/macrossdyrl/vt...t-1-gerwalk.gif

(open both, than rapidly switch (alt+tab) between the two)

[Kelsain]

Y'know, reviewing DYRL, you are correct. When Hikaru pitched the tent underneath the VT-1, it clearly shows the tail section/backpack in the same place as any other Valkyrie's would be.

Well, who wouldn't, when Misa is your bunk-mate?

[thankheaven]

I believe the VE-1 needs it because of the way the radardish is attached. The VT-1 is probably just based on the VE-1 since the raised rear seat would be better for a training VF because the instructor could look over the shoulder of the student pilot.

Also maybe that its just a simpler transformation system because these are not advanced combat units and perhaps its cheaper to make them this way.

Edited September 17, 2009 by thankheaven

[SchizophrenicMC]

My guess is the VT is a modified version of the VE, which mounts a different hardpoint selection, its FAST Pack hardpoint being mounted on the backpack, instead of the main fuselage. That would provide for a raised ELINT dish, and would also make room for the deeper slope of the forward fuselage into the midsection.

I kinda like the 1D better, looking at both side by side.

[Vi-RS]

I know it's for space use but it seems to me a very weak joint construction even without fastpack in battroid mode, yamato has to build a tab on back plate to secure the wing in 45 degree.

[SchizophrenicMC]

I know it's for space use but it seems to me a very weak joint construction even without fastpack in battroid mode, yamato has to build a tab on back plate to secure the wing in 45 degree.

From a canon standpoint, not the plastic toy, please.

[Vi-RS]

From a canon standpoint, not the plastic toy, please.

The question is still the same how to mount the tail fins in such a 45 degree with weak joint, it'd probably tear off since it's so much drag from the 45 degree....

[Cyclone Trooper]

Actually, I don't think drag is much of an issue with Valkyries outfitted with FAST Packs. These booster packs/radar radomes are exclusively used in zero-g environments like deep space (at least in DYRL). Almost always, you see a pilot jettison all of the extra armor and boosters of a FAST system just before entering atmosphere to reduce drag. So the 45-degree angle of the tail section wouldn't necessarily be a weak point when being used in that way. I agree with a few theories on here about the strange design being largely due to allowing for a more raised ELINT radome on top. I would agree with the cockpit/canopy theory except for the fact that the whole tail section CAN fold completely up like a "backpack" in GERWALK and Battroid modes without the FAST Packs attached.

[hobbes221]

The question is still the same how to mount the tail fins in such a 45 degree with weak joint, it'd probably tear off since it's so much drag from the 45 degree....

There was that one -1D flying around with the canopy up...

[SchizophrenicMC]

The question is still the same how to mount the tail fins in such a 45 degree with weak joint, it'd probably tear off since it's so much drag from the 45 degree....

1: FAST Packs are used in space, since the drag a pack causes is insane and messes up the flight dynamic

2: GERWALK is slow, not fast enough to rip off any sections

3: The forward fuselage blocks most of that section, anyway

4: The construction material would have to be strong enough to keep that from happening, anyway

There was that one -1D flying around with the canopy up...

Not to mention the -25F without a canopy

[David Hingtgen]

Canopies are over-rated.

[Gubaba]

Canopies are over-rated.

And convertibles are total chick-magnets!

[eugimon]

And convertibles are total chick-magnets!

It's true, Hikaru scored Misa with his convertible VF-1s.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Those are the fast convertibles of the fighter world, and this:

Is the Jeep Wrangler of the cargo plane world

[hobbes221]

Canopies are over-rated.

Off topic but as to that -14D I don't know if it is the same one but I heard a story of a surface ship officer getting a ride in and as the pilot rolled or pulled a loop the GIB found that his straps had not been pulled as tight as needed by his head hitting the canopy. Well to pull himself back into his seat can anyone guess just what he may have grabbed? That's right he pulled that little yellow and black handle between his legs!

[David Hingtgen]

That's pretty much it.

[red2alpha]

The way I look at it is the VE and FAST packs are all ment for space, not atmospheric flight. As Schizo said, either of the two would not work in the atmosphere of a planet, ( as of this writing) such as Earth. An aircraft with FAST packs would not be able to manuver properly, lack of control surfaces and the 45 degree flat planes of the back pack on a VE would be torn off the aircraft by the speed/drag/wind resistance.

[sketchley]

The way I look at it is the VE and FAST packs are all ment for space, not atmospheric flight. (...)

Careful, careful. Some are, some aren't. Latest info (alas a partial translation at the time of writing, but one can get the gist of things): http://www.macrossroleplay.org/forums/inde...g35158#msg35158

[SchizophrenicMC]

Careful, careful. Some are, some aren't. Latest info (alas a partial translation at the time of writing, but one can get the gist of things): http://www.macrossroleplay.org/forums/inde...g35158#msg35158

But from what I gather from that, the only Atmospheric FAST packs that exist are for the VF-19 and VF-17, not the VF-1.

I read, once, about an RPG that had atmospheric FAST packs for VF-1s, but they were completely non-canon.

[sketchley]

But from what I gather from that, the only Atmospheric FAST packs that exist are for the VF-19 and VF-17, not the VF-1.(...)

It's called parsing.

compare:

The way I look at it is the VE and FAST packs are all ment for space

vs.

the VE-1 and it's FAST Packs.

Quoted sentence is refering to all FAST packs and all VE type variable vehicles, and the modified sentence is referring to only the VE-1 and only the FAST packs used by the VE-1.

Anyhow, atmospheric use FAST packs exist for the VF-0, VF-5000, VF-11, VF-17, VF-19, VF-22, YF-19, YF-21, and possibly even the VA-3C Kai.

[SchizophrenicMC]

It's called parsing.

compare:

vs.

the VE-1 and it's FAST Packs.

Quoted sentence is refering to all FAST packs and all VE type variable vehicles, and the modified sentence is referring to only the VE-1 and only the FAST packs used by the VE-1.

Anyhow, atmospheric use FAST packs exist for the VF-0, VF-5000, VF-11, VF-17, VF-19, VF-22, YF-19, YF-21, and possibly even the VA-3C Kai.

VF-0: It's a Ghost strapped to the back of a VF-0, and two nearly-always used conformal tanks. Hardly a FAST pack.

VF-5000: Ah, yes. I forgot that.

VF-11: I didn't read anything about the VF-11's FAST packs there

VF-17: Said that

VF-19: Said that

VF-22: Looking where I look, I don't see any FAST packs, at all.

YF-21: Conformal Tank.

YF-19: It was a piece of shoulder armor and a conformal tank. That's even less than the VF-0.

FAST - Fuel And Sensors Tactical

There's no proof of some of those having Sensors in their Super packs, and most are just fuel tanks, not even boosters, making them... Just tanks, not Super Packs.

And, further, from his verbatim sentence, this is about VEs. There are 5 VE valks, that I can say I know: The VE-1, VF-11C Radome, VF-17D Radome, RVF-171, and RVF-25. This, of course, discounts the VF-171EX, but I don't see it as a separate valk, but a weapons system addon.

Of them, either they didn't have Super parts of any type or they were exo-atmospheric, anyway.

So, I assume, either way, the VE-1 cannot use its specialized equipment in an atmosphere, which is the focus of this discussion at this point. And, as a result, the backpack will not snap off due to air resistance.

[sketchley]

VF-0: (...)

Other than arguing for the point of arguing, what's your point? 翻訳した情報を持っての？

There are 5 VE valks, that I can say I know: The VE-1, VF-11C Radome, VF-17D Radome, RVF-171, and RVF-25.

And in your sentence, how many of those start with the prefix of VE? That's how many you *really* know are VE specification.

the VE-1 cannot use its specialized equipment in an atmosphere, which is the focus of this discussion at this point

.

You're the one that turned it into a discussion about FAST packs and Super Parts.

Anyhow, you're forgetting: the specialized avionics, rear-seated RIO, enhanced sensor equipped head, et al. The VE-1 is more than the sum of it's FAST packs.

[Skull Leader]

Canopies are over-rated.

"Right Now, the Tomcat does not currently come with a rag-top"

[sharky]

The question is still the same how to mount the tail fins in such a 45 degree with weak joint, it'd probably tear off since it's so much drag from the 45 degree....

What drag? This mode is only used in outer space.

[jenius]

It would put an immense amount of pressure on the backpack joint when the boosters fired but I'm sure there's some lock for that.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Wall of Sketchleyism

Anyhow, you're forgetting: the specialized avionics, rear-seated RIO, enhanced sensor equipped head, et al. The VE-1 is more than the sum of it's FAST packs.

First, see the following as to why FAST packs are in this discussion

The way I look at it is the VE and FAST packs are all ment for space, not atmospheric flight. As Schizo said, either of the two would not work in the atmosphere of a planet, ( as of this writing) such as Earth. An aircraft with FAST packs would not be able to manuver properly, lack of control surfaces and the 45 degree flat planes of the back pack on a VE would be torn off the aircraft by the speed/drag/wind resistance.

Second, the VE-1's signature equipment, it's specialized radome and sensor pack, is only usable in space, since the Radome is attached to the FAST pack. This leaves it with the ELINT sensor that it uses for a head. You could just as well send a VT-1 out and do the same thing.

Also, I just took VE in stride, applying the classification "Variable Electronic warfare" to "Reconaissance Variable Fighter" and such. Either way, it's still about the VE-1.

What drag? This mode is only used in outer space.

THIS

It would put an immense amount of pressure on the backpack joint when the boosters fired but I'm sure there's some lock for that.

And, again, I'm certain they wouldn't build a plane that can't stand its own forces. Space Metal has an unknown strength, as does the whole ECA they keep using. (It does apply to the entire fuselage, right?)

[sketchley]

misquoter

I see a bunch of quotes, but narry a clarification of your point. What's the point in continuing this discussion if you can't clarify your point and feel the need to obfuscate things?

[SchizophrenicMC]

I see a bunch of quotes, but narry a clarification of your point. What's the point in continuing this discussion if you can't clarify your point and feel the need to obfuscate things?

So... You really want the last laugh, don't you?

We're saying the same thing, Sketchley, just in different ways. Give it up, man.

You say the VE-1 has no atmospheric FAST pack capabilities, I say the VE-1 has no atmospheric FAST pack capabilities. OP's question is answered by two people. Good enough. It's even backed up by the both of us.

[jenius]

No, actually the OP's question hasn't been answered by anyone... but you guys sure had a fun argument about nothing on topic.

So, getting back on topic:

Argument 1: The tail fins stay out to elevate the VE-1's radome

I don't think this makes a lick of sense. First, why not just put the radome on a bigger pole? Why use the backpack as a prop? If that's unfeasible, why not a telescoping pole for the radome? That's probably the best solution for something that will also transform.

Argument 2: It has something to do with it being a 2 seater

The altered canopy does require some altering of the chest area but it doesn't seem to necessitate the awkard folded out tailfins of the backpack.

Here's a hypothesis for you (and I have no proof whatsoever)

I hypothesize the tail fins stay out for the Elint and VT-1 because they are the only ones with fast pack boosters than can actually spin on their attachments to the backpack (again, an unsupported hypothesis). The fixed fast pack boosters on the traditional VF-1 are tucked tight against the body and only can propel the vehicle forward with their main thrust. If the thrusters could be spun up or down then their main thrust could be used for increased mobility. In the VE-1 this might help it get out of a tight jam with limited offensive capabilities and in the VT-1 this might allow an instructor to stabilize the craft or get out of a tight squeeze a rookie pilot might put the plane into.

[eugimon]

that doesn't make sense either. Easier to change the angle of the thruster bell then it is to move the whole pack around and it's of limited use since it can't be pointed down since the legs are in the way of a downward burn.

[jenius]

That's true, although you do still gain mobility by moving both the thruster bell and the thruster itself (if bell can move 50% and thruster can move 20% then you could get a full 70% rather than just the 50%). Even if you can only move the thruster so that it points upward there is still something gained... although maybe not enough to warrant the contrivance.

EDIT - you could conceivably camber those fastpacks also (think ball joint) to avoid having them thrust onto the legs.

Edited September 26, 2009 by jenius