I think i figured out Macross7

[RDClip]

So the first time i saw m7 a few years ago, i thought it was so stupid. The whole thing was filled with cheesy cliches and predictable events. Then recently i finally noticed what i was missing the whole time. Macross7 is a parody series.

Its so obvious when you think about it. Basara is an self-righteous narcissist that flys into battle to stop the fighting by singing. This is obviously a parody of Gundam and other mecha series where the protagonist discovers himself and decides to use his leet piloting skills(which like basara, come with no prior training) to stop the violence. Mylene is an annoying 14 year old who lives by herself, drives, and has an adult job(for the sake of this arguement, i'm saying that being in a band is 'adult'). This is a parody of all the annoying teenage characters of anime that try to act like adults even though they are still children. And then theres the bad guys who randomly attack them and try to steal their 'spiritia' aka energy. There's probably other anime series that have a similar story, but i liken it to the 1st season of Sailor Moon.

I heard that the original SDF Macross series was initially supposed to parody space opera anime of the time like gundam and Yamato. We all know SDF:M turned out to be a serious show, so who knows this may have been an influence on how M7 turned out. I also recall the rumor that Kawamori wanted to make Macross+ as completely unrelated to the Macross franchise under a different name, but Bandai Visual forced him to make it a Macross. As well, he was obligated to make a TV series in the deal and M7 was the result. I'm just speculating here, but perhaps the whole of M7 is a little jab at the entire anime industry by Kawamori.

So i find that it is better to watch Macross7 and not to take it seriously.

P.s. If this was always obvious to everyone, i apologize for my daftness.

[Sketch]

So i find that it is better to watch Macross7 and not to take it seriously.

No poo Sherlock.

It's a show about a guy who flys his guitar controlled robot into combat zones and shoots rock'n'roll lazers at space monsters. If you go into a show like Macross 7, Godannar, or G Gundam expecting SRS BZNS of course you're going to be disappointed.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Sketch

[Master Dex]

You just have to watch M7 differently than the others. It isn't a parody, it just has a different tone. It helps a lot if you really like Fire Bomber music (and by association Fukuyama-san's music, of which I am a huge fan now thanks to M7). I was actually able to get into the whole song energy concept, even if the entire idea behind it makes little sense scientifically., on a psychological level such a thing can have an impact.

[VFTF1]

I dunno - I think there's lots of serious themes in Macross 7. It never came across as a parody to me. I mean, I do agree with the comparissons in the OP, but you can kind of say that about most self-conscious anime, which doesn't outright make them parodies. I think the problem isn't people taking Macross 7 seriously and being dissapointed, but rather, it is people having a very precise vision of what Macross ought to be about and look like - and then coming to find that Macross 7 doesn't quite conform to that vision.

In any event, it has its' ups and downs which have been discussed in a zillion threads...

Pete

[Ghost Train]

49 episode long parody....

[Project Phoenix]

Be glad they didn't sing Kumbaya at the end.

[VF5SS]

bomba

[D.D. Ivanov]

No, BOMBAA!!!

[ff95gj]

No poo Sherlock.

It's a show about a guy who flys his guitar controlled robot into combat zones and shoots rock'n'roll lazers at space monsters. If you go into a show like Macross 7, Godannar, or G Gundam expecting SRS BZNS of course you're going to be disappointed.

G Gundam has a lot of sense after I watched M7.

[dreamweaver13]

Don't kid yourselves. No one can ever truly figure out the Beauty of Craziness called Macross 7. BOMBA!!

Edited September 2, 2009 by dreamweaver13

[Ghost Train]

[Master Dex]

That's not fair, Basara is clearly right handed in the show. That last picture is all wrong, lol. Not to mention the one you labeled as Basara is playing a base, and you labeled Mylene as the main guitar, when they are in actuality the other way around.

To be clear on where I stand:

BOMBAA!!!

Edited September 2, 2009 by Master Dex

[Keith]

Macross 7 is full contained extreme levels of hot blooded manlyness, sadly a bit too much for some of the fanbase to take. That's ok though, because Macross 7 is still there for you when you've matured enough to understand it!

[Chronocidal]

Even though I kinda got it to begin with (I think being a musician can help a lot with appreciating the show), I don't think I would ever want to be that mature.

My single favorite moment from M7 still sums up most people's reaction to it perfectly I think... Chlore's face in FOTSW when that giant ballistic subwoofer punctures the bridge and blasts them all away with rock music. It's got that perfect mix of "OMG!!," "WTF!!" and "ARE YOU FRAKING SERIOUS??"

As for the rest of the series, I think my sig sums it up nicely.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Chronocidal

[nexxstrait]

Valks with guitars rock!

[ff95gj]

Speaking of hot-blooded manliness and defying logic, I have no problem in appreciating Gurren Lagann though.

WHO DO YOU THINK I AM?!

[Keith]

Speaking of hot-blooded manliness and defying logic, I have no problem in appreciating Gurren Lagann though.

WHO DO YOU THINK I AM?!

Then you are on the path of kicking common sense to the curb to make the impossible possible!

[Agent ONE]

Yes.

[ff95gj]

Then you are on the path of kicking common sense to the curb to make the impossible possible!

I don't believe in you... I believe in myself who believe in me!

[thegunny]

I worked out the secret to M7 ages ago. DON'T WATCH IT

[VFTF1]

The Gurren Lagann/Macross 7 parallels are actually pretty good. The big difference, and big problem, I think , is that Macross 7 has a male protagonist, while Gurren Lagann gives us Yoko. Sure, Kamina is the lead male protagonist, but Yoko is a manly woman and isn't JUST there to be cute and be the love-interest for the male lead(s) like Mylene is.

My point? It's easier for anime fans (who happen to mostly be guys) to accept the craziness of Gurren Lagann because Gurren Lagann is headlined by a big-boobed, fine-assed redhead in pink nylons, skimpy pants and a flaming bikini top. It is harder for these same anime fans (guys) to accept the craziness of Macross 7 which is headlined by an arrogant ass rocker who alternates between a wife-beater and spandex.

Naturally, I think it's great that Kamawori basically combined Hikaru-the-pilot with Minmei-the-Songstress of the Galaxy to make Basara, and I think it's awesome that the series shows that manliness isn't necessarily co-equal with shooting big guns, but rather with having the courage of your convictions and singing your big love heart out.

But this is hard to swallow for many. Add to that the fact that a key antagonist seems to have a loli-pop coming out of his head and does his hair at the same place as your aunt's poodle, and we have a problem.

I do agree that there are numerous shortcomings to this series, but overall I think it was a gallant attempt and had a lot of moving scenes in it.

Pete

[ff95gj]

Hmm... Sorry that I don't agree with this. GL and M7's differences are more than just Yoko. I am shallow, but not that shallow.

MHO is that Gurren Lagann (along with Sailor Moon) does not pretend that the whole plot is "scientific". GL is all about hot-blooded manliness. Drill to the sky! Kick the logic to the curb!

M7 tries to explain the proculture, spirit power, song power, blah blah blah. Basara is reckless, headstrong, stubborn but not hot-blooded TO ME.

Maybe my problem to appreciate M7 is that, I don't love music that much. In GL, the hot-bloodedness is about trust in yourself, trust in comrades, friendship, etc. Yoko helps too.

In M7, Basara refuses to work with others and keep people at arm's length. He is all into his own music. I like the show better when he becomes fast friends with Gamlin, but that is quite late in the series already.

The Gurren Lagann/Macross 7 parallels are actually pretty good. The big difference, and big problem, I think , is that Macross 7 has a male protagonist, while Gurren Lagann gives us Yoko. Sure, Kamina is the lead male protagonist, but Yoko is a manly woman and isn't JUST there to be cute and be the love-interest for the male lead(s) like Mylene is.

My point? It's easier for anime fans (who happen to mostly be guys) to accept the craziness of Gurren Lagann because Gurren Lagann is headlined by a big-boobed, fine-assed redhead in pink nylons, skimpy pants and a flaming bikini top. It is harder for these same anime fans (guys) to accept the craziness of Macross 7 which is headlined by an arrogant ass rocker who alternates between a wife-beater and spandex.

Naturally, I think it's great that Kamawori basically combined Hikaru-the-pilot with Minmei-the-Songstress of the Galaxy to make Basara, and I think it's awesome that the series shows that manliness isn't necessarily co-equal with shooting big guns, but rather with having the courage of your convictions and singing your big love heart out.

But this is hard to swallow for many. Add to that the fact that a key antagonist seems to have a loli-pop coming out of his head and does his hair at the same place as your aunt's poodle, and we have a problem.

I do agree that there are numerous shortcomings to this series, but overall I think it was a gallant attempt and had a lot of moving scenes in it.

Pete

[nexxstrait]

Hehehe, Macross 7 hits again. It draws out the fire in Macross fans, wether they love the series or not.

[VF5SS]

Sure, Kamina is the lead male protagonist, but Yoko is a manly woman and isn't JUST there to be cute and be the love-interest for the male lead(s) like Mylene is.

Yoko only exists because they were running out of ideas for Rei and Asuka figures.

bomba

[VFTF1]

These are some really good points, ff95gj. It's hard not to agree with you. But then again, I didn't mean to imply that the two series are so directly paralell. The reasons you give below are basically why Gurren Lagann is the better series.

You're right that it does get a tad absurd in Macross 7 that they try to make a science of art. It's one thing to understand the sociological phenomena of Minmey re-awakening the culture that dwells within the Zendradi by nature, and was supressed by their warlike conventions. But it's a whole different ballpark when we try to quantify music via "Chiba Units," and make music something that you "zap" at your enemies.

This scientific approach to music actually only works in Macross Frontier, not Macross 7. That is to say, it works when the enemy are not sentient individuals who are similar to humans, but insect like swarms like the Vajra who do not so much "sing" as they emit sounds that convey what humans would call the emotion of the urge for love (mating calls). Ranka's songs are "mating calls" to the Vajra's "ears" and in this sense, they serve not so much to awaken the Vajra to culture, but are just a means of communications between two extremely different species.

The big plot hole in Macross 7 is that the Protodevilin are actually more like than unlike the humans, except that they just have crazy bio-engineered super powers going way beyond Zendradi resistance to out space and other harsh environments. This is why Basara's songs get through to them - the Protodevilin learn that they too are capable of producing culture (spiritia).

But I agree - why was it necessary to try to scientifically categorize these phenomena? Why "chiba units" and "spiritia" rather than just "passionate songs" and "culture" ?

Macross 7 is closer to SDFM TV insofar as the core of its' story is about sociology and culture, but the language and concepts it operates with are pseudo-scientific rather than simply relying on the unscientific domain of culture.

And I agree - this really hurts the story, because to me - it's not Basara's "chiba units" that are the key - it's his singing and his spiritedness.

Macross 7 is a good idea with lots of problems in terms of execution; whether in animation, plot or other aspects.

But it's still a great ride.

Unless you don't like the music.

Then it's painful

Hmm... Sorry that I don't agree with this. GL and M7's differences are more than just Yoko. I am shallow, but not that shallow.

MHO is that Gurren Lagann (along with Sailor Moon) does not pretend that the whole plot is "scientific". GL is all about hot-blooded manliness. Drill to the sky! Kick the logic to the curb!

M7 tries to explain the proculture, spirit power, song power, blah blah blah. Basara is reckless, headstrong, stubborn but not hot-blooded TO ME.

Maybe my problem to appreciate M7 is that, I don't love music that much. In GL, the hot-bloodedness is about trust in yourself, trust in comrades, friendship, etc. Yoko helps too.

In M7, Basara refuses to work with others and keep people at arm's length. He is all into his own music. I like the show better when he becomes fast friends with Gamlin, but that is quite late in the series already.

[Mr March]

I prefer to think of Macross 7 in terms of it's medium rather than format. SDF Macross was a show that elevated itself beyond it's humble beginning as a mecha anime. Macross 7 aimed for shallowness and somehow managed to drain even more out of the pool. I've long suspected Kevin J. Anderson might have been involved

[Keith]

Macross 7's technology is quite believable within the realm of unbelievable Macross technology.

-All life produces energy

-The more passionate you are, the more pure the energy you produce is

-That energy can be amplified.

As for execution, ya'll need to stop confusing your not liking a pilot who sings instead of shoots as shallow story telling. Basara & Isamu are 99% the same character type, minus the womanizing.

[VFTF1]

Basara & Isamu are 99% the same character type, minus the womanizing.

And minus the maniacal love of flying, or rather Basara replaces the stubborn love of wild flying with a stubborn love of singing in combat... I guess you do have a point...

I also agree - Macross 7 isn't shallow. There are parts of it that are kind of gratting - but the effort is not shallow.

What is shallow in Macross 7 ?

Pete

[Master Dex]

Pete that was a very nice explanation about Macross 7 up there and I can't agree more. I don't particularly like or understand why they needed to go the song energy route, but at the same time, I like the concept that you can amplify an energy based on the emotion of song to easier reach someone else.

The reason I like Macross 7 isn't all the cheesy stuff. It is at its core, still Macross. Also I've grown to respect Basara despite his obvious faults and think he is a pretty good character. You also have to respect someone who can fly a valkyrie using an acoustic guitar to manipulate the controls (Dynamite 7).

I also love the music, the show made me a full on Yoshiki Fukuyama fan as I've said. Simply BOMBAA!!

[Killer Robot]

What is shallow in Macross 7 ?

Pete

I can't call the whole series shallow, but it's about zero for character development on the fleet's side, unless you count "(person) goes from disliking Basara to respecting him." It's not crippling when you consider how much the show is played as a sitcom, but the only non-Protodeviln character that feels like they've significantly changed from episode 1 to episode 49 is Gamlin and that's just since he's the most extreme case of being won over by Basara.

[VFTF1]

Hm - ok - I can see the character development critique insofar as you're right - Basara is pretty much the SAME for all 49 episodes. I guess he has the same "flaw" as some people accuse on Ayn Ran's character - just cardboard cutouts; archetypes that feel like they need to conform to a rigid preconcieved notion rather than dynamic, fluid and therefore surprising characters...

But then again - why can't some people BE that way? I mean - what exactly did Basara have as a character that needed developing? There was a huge war on the horizon, he wanted to stop it, and he was passionate about his music. Yes, this is a little two dimmensional insofar as character development goes... but on the other hand...can we not have a character like this? Do all characters really need to "develop" ?

As for other characters on the Fleet side... well... I dunno... I mean... Mylene goes through phases trying to understand Basara and figure out a way to approach him. Max and Millia seem to have this ongoing tiff...

I think part of the problem is that the changes are half-hearted, and the development is too. There's too much "things go back to the way they were" with each new episode.

Plus - the Protodevilin seem completely incapable of adapting to Basra's Minmey tactic.

I mean - Kamjin, having lived on Earth amongst humans for a year, managed to become cynical about culture to the point that he laughed off a singing Minmei.

Yet the Protodevilin just keep getting defeated by Basara's songs...

And then for no explicable reason except the fact that it's episode 48 and the song hasn't been played yet... Basara suddenly awakens he spiritia in the Protodevilin...hmm...convenient...

But still a good show

Pete

[ff95gj]

I like such discusssions because someone can frame the idea very nicely! That's also something I have felt but never formulated into words.

Yes, SDF take the songs as, songs. They heard the music and felt it's a little bit funny the feeling inside. It's culture.

In MF, the Vajras are bugs and they just heard something happened they thought they understood (mating call) and responded. It's an instinct thing. But they really don't have a complicated culture thing, because they can communicate SO effectively already. A culture is an aggregated behavior of a social community I would say; but the Vajras have the best communication among each other that they are one. They don't need to aggregate anything.

In M7, they try to explain why music can do this and that and things get worsened. You get a lot of explanation on song energy, the song energy becomes AT field, you see the song enery shoots around. The flying elves don't help either. The proto-monsters are too Mazinger-styled to fit into Macross IMHO.

I can't agree more it would be easier for me if they just keep at "passionate songs" and "culture", and of course please no song shields and song beams.

These are some really good points, ff95gj. It's hard not to agree with you. But then again, I didn't mean to imply that the two series are so directly paralell. The reasons you give below are basically why Gurren Lagann is the better series.

You're right that it does get a tad absurd in Macross 7 that they try to make a science of art. It's one thing to understand the sociological phenomena of Minmey re-awakening the culture that dwells within the Zendradi by nature, and was supressed by their warlike conventions. But it's a whole different ballpark when we try to quantify music via "Chiba Units," and make music something that you "zap" at your enemies.

This scientific approach to music actually only works in Macross Frontier, not Macross 7. That is to say, it works when the enemy are not sentient individuals who are similar to humans, but insect like swarms like the Vajra who do not so much "sing" as they emit sounds that convey what humans would call the emotion of the urge for love (mating calls). Ranka's songs are "mating calls" to the Vajra's "ears" and in this sense, they serve not so much to awaken the Vajra to culture, but are just a means of communications between two extremely different species.

The big plot hole in Macross 7 is that the Protodevilin are actually more like than unlike the humans, except that they just have crazy bio-engineered super powers going way beyond Zendradi resistance to out space and other harsh environments. This is why Basara's songs get through to them - the Protodevilin learn that they too are capable of producing culture (spiritia).

But I agree - why was it necessary to try to scientifically categorize these phenomena? Why "chiba units" and "spiritia" rather than just "passionate songs" and "culture" ?

Macross 7 is closer to SDFM TV insofar as the core of its' story is about sociology and culture, but the language and concepts it operates with are pseudo-scientific rather than simply relying on the unscientific domain of culture.

And I agree - this really hurts the story, because to me - it's not Basara's "chiba units" that are the key - it's his singing and his spiritedness.

Macross 7 is a good idea with lots of problems in terms of execution; whether in animation, plot or other aspects.

But it's still a great ride.

Unless you don't like the music.

Then it's painful

Edited September 4, 2009 by ff95gj

[anime52k8]

But then again - why can't some people BE that way? I mean - what exactly did Basara have as a character that needed developing? There was a huge war on the horizon, he wanted to stop it, and he was passionate about his music. Yes, this is a little two dimmensional insofar as character development goes... but on the other hand...can we not have a character like this? Do all characters really need to "develop" ?

The problem with basara's lack of character development is that if you don't like him right from the get go, more than likely you're still going to not like him 48 episodes latter when he's still the exact same character. with a dynamic character your opinion about them can change as they change, and even if you never end up liking them, it's still more interesting to watch an unlikeable character grow than an unlikeable character sit there and be the same jackass for the whole show.

as for the the comparison to Gurren Lagann, I do agree that Yoko's hotness is a big plus, but really I think it's more that GL has more enjoyable characters as a whole than Mac7.

personally, I think Mac7 is ok. I'm not really bothered by any the the ridiculous stuff, I like it (I love GL, G Gundam is my favorite Gundam EVER.) but there's a lot of little things that keep it from being any more than "meh"

[VF5SS]

The problem with basara's lack of character development is that if you don't like him right from the get go, more than likely you're still going to not like him 48 episodes latter when he's still the exact same character.

You realize the show has at least twenty other character besides Basara?

What about MILLIA ZA PRESIDENTO?!

[VFTF1]

Yeah...but those other characters don't get much character development either. I will agree, looking back, that Macross 7 is more about the back-and-forth, rather than about character arcs that move forward. It's closer to your cliche cartoon like Transformers, where Starscream is the guy who will always try to betray Megatron and fail, Prime is the noble guy, Megatron always has some crazy scheme and it always fails, the Dinobots are always mad and sound like cavemen...etc etc without fail in and out. Episode after episode. It's a kind of static theatre, if you will, where we're supposed to marvel at the character arcetypes rather than following a story that finds the character changing. Macross 7 relies heavily on Gamlin ALWAYS berating Bassara for getting in the way, on Mylene always being mad at Bassara for being late, on Max always arguing with Milia, on Gigil always going nutts over Sivil. Yes, there are slight variations - most notably Gamlin learning to admire Basara - but other than this (and the obvious one of the Protodevilin discovering their spiritia producing powers at the end)...does it get any more complex than that? No.

And you'd think that in a world where the "founding" was Lyn Minmey, music would be more respected than it is in Macross 7...

But see... these aren't so much devastating criticisms of the show as they are simply samples of what was not quite right with it. Macross Frontier, and before that Macross: Zero, managed to get it right.

Macross Plus seemed so scare of following in the footsteps of the core, radical themes of Macross that it focused very very heavily on pilots, piloting, and mecha. And while the idea of music as a corupting force, and the technology vs. nature themes are there, are relevent, and are well done - there is a reason why it was an OVA and not a 20 odd episode series...

All of this just goes to show that it's actually quite difficult to do a good Macross show because the components are so far out, as are the themes, that one really has to have everything lock stock and barrel well thought out.

Pete