How much is too much for Macross?

[eugimon]

The region locking brings up another point. The companies themselves pretty much insure that bootlegging will take place.. unless they act quickly to distribute their products worldwide in a reasonable amount of time, price scaled for each specific region. Which is what Hollywood is starting to do.

[Excillon]

I'm a total pirate, and I admit it. The only Macross I own that's legit is the English SDFM and Macross Plus, and that was because I got both really cheap. However, do I feel bad about it? No, I don't and here's why in short:

Like record companies, they all blame piracy. It's a load of crap. I know for a fact that it doesn't cost that much to record an album. Artists don't get paid that much from their album sales, it's the touring that pays them, and royalties. And since it doesn't cost that much to record (maybe an engineer, and equip/studio fees and most bands artists are producing themselves now so you can nix the engineers), the cost is just not justified. Sure, a series or movie costs more, but it still doesn't justify the expense of the end product. I know the voice actors aren't paid that much, the artists aren't, nor are the screen writers. The only ones that get heavy paydays are the Director/producer/rights holder. The rest goes to the company. Hell with the company, they just want profit, and a lot of it. There's a fundamental difference between profit and straight up gouging. I figure I'm doing more to support the industry by pirating/buying pirated copies. At least that way, I know the money is going back into the fanbase, or at the very least helping someone pay their bills.

On another note, also, I don't feel bad because of what I spend on toys and models from these lines. Bootlegs of those are still crappy, so for now they can just gouge on those. All these shows are is glorified commercials anyhow, so either way they get their money out of me. I feel bad for the underpaid people that are involved in these projects, but certainly not the creators and companies.

[Gubaba]

The region locking brings up another point. The companies themselves pretty much insure that bootlegging will take place.. unless they act quickly to distribute their products worldwide in a reasonable amount of time, price scaled for each specific region. Which is what Hollywood is starting to do.

Yeah...I never understood the DVD region thing. The difference between NTSC and PAL for VHS tapes came about organically because of the difference between American and British TV sets...but (and please correct me if I'm wrong) region coding was deliberately imposed by...who? The DVD companies? The film companies?

There used to be a good, vibrant video store scene in L.A.'s Little Tokyo area in the '90s; there were about ten or eleven really good places for video rental. Now there are two, I believe. And they still only have VHS tapes (well...one of them rents CDs as well). There are lots of Japanese movies (and anime) that I'd like to see but not necessarily buy...but there's really no place to go to rent them anymore.

[Strumvogel]

Yeah...I never understood the DVD region thing. The difference between NTSC and PAL for VHS tapes came about organically because of the difference between American and British TV sets...but (and please correct me if I'm wrong) region coding was deliberately imposed by...who? The DVD companies? The film companies?

There used to be a good, vibrant video store scene in L.A.'s Little Tokyo area in the '90s; there were about ten or eleven really good places for video rental. Now there are two, I believe. And they still only have VHS tapes (well...one of them rents CDs as well). There are lots of Japanese movies (and anime) that I'd like to see but not necessarily buy...but there's really no place to go to rent them anymore.

I believe thats largely by the film companies since DVD sales are a part of their cash cow. What ever they make on the box office, they can easily make double, tripe even, of that on DVD sales. That's even before they start "double dipping".

Region encoding is a sore point point of contention with me at the moment due very much my PS3. A large amount of my DVD collection are imported and of which I pay through my nose for but because of the region encoding on the PS3, well over 90% of my DVDs are useless on it. Which is why if anyone want to make an argument for region encoding just doesn't cut it with me.

Yeah I remember a friend of mine talking about the video stores of Little Tokyo. I used to get very jealous on how easy it was for him to get access to so many shows and not just anime from Japan back then. He would sometimes make a copy and sent it to me. Good times. Sad to see those go.

[Gubaba]

Yeah I remember a friend of mine talking about the video stores of Little Tokyo. I used to get very jealous on how easy it was for him to get access to so many shows and not just anime from Japan back then. He would sometimes make a copy and sent it to me. Good times. Sad to see those go.

Yeah, they were great. Not just anime and movies, but just normal TV shows from Japan as well. I was a BIG fan of J-Pop duo Puffy (still am, actually) and I managed to get nearly the entire four-run of their TV variety show, "Pa-Pa-Pa-Pa-Puffy" from two of the video stores. One of them is still there, the other one has turned into a ramen restaurant.

[DreamsOfIshtar]

Just about everything that Bri has written is what I would have written, so I'll just let Bri speak for me.

All I'm going to add from myself is this:

If I could walk into the store here in Warsaw and buy all of the Macross DVDs legally, and get CDs of Yoshiki Fukayama concerts that I could play in my car while crusing with my girlfriend - I would do it in a heart beat.

If I could import DVDs and CDs from a far away land and know that they'd actually work on the CD players and DVD players that are used in this country - I would.

But I can't.

Although - I do know that the Japanese BW Transformers DVDs that came with Takara-Tomy BW TFs from Japan DO work on my laptop DVD player...

Does that mean if I bought a Macross DVD or CD from Japan, it would work too?

And are there any legal Macross DVDs that have english subs?

Pete

Hi there. Maybe what you said about Bri and you writing the same is true, but I am not sure he would have written what you wrote. Looks like a fairly different attitude towards doing things legally to me.

[DreamsOfIshtar]

... I figure I'm doing more to support the industry by pirating/buying pirated copies. At least that way, I know the money is going back into the fanbase, or at the very least helping someone pay their bills.

Uhm, what money? If you're pirating, there is -no- money going back into anything. And if you're buying those knock-off Hong Kong jobs (and I know precisely the sorts, since I have more than a few myself), then that money is going into hands just as greedy as the 'companies', as you put it. Download anime yourself -- fine, if you're going to feel like you're making a stand against overpriced anime. But to buy bootlegs? You're just trading one gouger for another, since the makers of bootlegs don't pay *anything* and sell their goods to you.

Also, 'helping someone pay their bills'? Are you that myopic that you don't realise even the legitimate companies do just that? They have employees, who rely directly on the money said companies make. You'd be well advised to read my posts so far to ascertain my own standpoint before replying -- I pirate as well, so please don't think I'm taking some sort of moral high ground.

[DreamsOfIshtar]

I believe thats largely by the film companies since DVD sales are a part of their cash cow. What ever they make on the box office, they can easily make double, tripe even, of that on DVD sales. That's even before they start "double dipping".

Region encoding is a sore point point of contention with me at the moment due very much my PS3. A large amount of my DVD collection are imported and of which I pay through my nose for but because of the region encoding on the PS3, well over 90% of my DVDs are useless on it. Which is why if anyone want to make an argument for region encoding just doesn't cut it with me.

Yeah I remember a friend of mine talking about the video stores of Little Tokyo. I used to get very jealous on how easy it was for him to get access to so many shows and not just anime from Japan back then. He would sometimes make a copy and sent it to me. Good times. Sad to see those go.

Ensuring that your new dvd player is region-free used to be the highest priority when shopping -- here in Australia, we're locked to Pal, which used to be almost like a prison sentence (hey, we are a nation of ex-crims, maybe it's appropriate!), but local releases of anime and asian cinema in general are nowadays fairly abundant. And failing that, there is torrenting, etc. Interesting point -- salesmen are no longer allowed to tell you if a player is region-free. At best, you might be able to wheedle out a few hints if they're feeling friendly. The last player I bought was region-locked by default but a simple code entered upon setting up unlocked it.

Naturally the big issue right now is Bluray region locking, because Pal bluray releases are...well, deplorable in comparison to NTSC. I just keep an eye on various sites that test for region-free releases.

[Excillon]

Uhm, what money? If you're pirating, there is -no- money going back into anything. And if you're buying those knock-off Hong Kong jobs (and I know precisely the sorts, since I have more than a few myself), then that money is going into hands just as greedy as the 'companies', as you put it. Download anime yourself -- fine, if you're going to feel like you're making a stand against overpriced anime. But to buy bootlegs? You're just trading one gouger for another, since the makers of bootlegs don't pay *anything* and sell their goods to you.

Also, 'helping someone pay their bills'? Are you that myopic that you don't realise even the legitimate companies do just that? They have employees, who rely directly on the money said companies make. You'd be well advised to read my posts so far to ascertain my own standpoint before replying -- I pirate as well, so please don't think I'm taking some sort of moral high ground.

I have a few bootlegs, but I don't buy them regularly. I bought a nice set of Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny/Stargazer for I believe it was 20.00 plus shipping from a guy in Canada. Normally I do download myself, but it just seemed easier than tracking 100+ episodes and 6 movies down. I always weigh my laziness vs. my cheapness.

As for the helping someone pay their bills, I don't think you understood what I was saying. I was pointing out that those people don't really get squat compared to what they deserve, because the company takes a ton of it for the fatcat board of directors, which really don't do anything more than say ok or no. They don't actually do any work. If companies were giving their employees what they deserved, then I probably wouldn't pirate unless it was a have to situation, like I couldn't find it here in the US.

[DreamsOfIshtar]

I have a few bootlegs, but I don't buy them regularly. I bought a nice set of Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny/Stargazer for I believe it was 20.00 plus shipping from a guy in Canada. Normally I do download myself, but it just seemed easier than tracking 100+ episodes and 6 movies down. I always weigh my laziness vs. my cheapness.

As for the helping someone pay their bills, I don't think you understood what I was saying. I was pointing out that those people don't really get squat compared to what they deserve, because the company takes a ton of it for the fatcat board of directors, which really don't do anything more than say ok or no. They don't actually do any work. If companies were giving their employees what they deserved, then I probably wouldn't pirate unless it was a have to situation, like I couldn't find it here in the US.

If no one buys the legit versions, then 'those people' really don't get squat...

[Vifam7]

I have a few bootlegs, but I don't buy them regularly. I bought a nice set of Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny/Stargazer for I believe it was 20.00 plus shipping from a guy in Canada. Normally I do download myself, but it just seemed easier than tracking 100+ episodes and 6 movies down. I always weigh my laziness vs. my cheapness.

As for the helping someone pay their bills, I don't think you understood what I was saying. I was pointing out that those people don't really get squat compared to what they deserve, because the company takes a ton of it for the fatcat board of directors, which really don't do anything more than say ok or no. They don't actually do any work. If companies were giving their employees what they deserved, then I probably wouldn't pirate unless it was a have to situation, like I couldn't find it here in the US.

I say bullshit. You/we download or buy bootlegs because it's cheap and you/we are cheap. Everything else is just weak excuses.

Company employees not fairly paid for the work? Yeah, whatever. That claim can be placed on any company out there.

Besides, is pirating is going to solve the problem? I don't think so. Since you don't feel like supporting the anime companies, I suppose you'd rather have them collapse? Yeah, that'll be beneficial for the fans. And I'm sure the workers like to be unemployed.

Oh, and the piraters? I'm sure they pay their workers fair and square.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Vifam7

[Bri]

Hi there. Maybe what you said about Bri and you writing the same is true, but I am not sure he would have written what you wrote. Looks like a fairly different attitude towards doing things legally to me.

Already have said it, actually. In one of the early posts I said that Macross is good enough to be worth my money. So I own Japanese versions of most of the material. Also I won't buy pirated material like bootlegs or fake merchadise. That is illegal here and I don't want to support people trying to make money of piracy.

Note @DreamsofIstar: Thought "yet" was a synonym of "as well as", wasn't aware of the contradictory clause. Thanks for pointing it out.

[snowboarder]

Macross niche market?!?!?!

The Macross franchise is a mini empire for Kawamori and those involved. It has generated substantial profits and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. If it didn't, there wouldn't have been anything beyond Flashback 2012.

Personally, I'm lucky to have a good career that allows me disposable income to purchase what I like. Unfortunately, there are many who don't have this luxury and they're every bit the fan as anyone else on this forum.

Regardless of whether it's right or wrong the internet has allowed people to download things that they can't afford or don't want to purchase for whatever reason, Macross items included.

I would go so far as to say that downloading of fansubbed material hasn't hurt the Macross franchise in any way. Numerous Frontier items did extremely well monetary wise when they were released. My opinion, and that's all it is, is also bolstered by the fact that there are going to be two Frontier movies. You don't do this if you're hurting financially.

While it would be nice for every individual to purchase their Macross items, there are plenty who won't. I also think that the majority of the downloaders are foreigners who can't get items in their native language or at all and most likely never will due to HG and their ridiculous claims to the Macross franchise.

It seems that the Macross creators only care about the profitability in their domestic market. As long as this continues Macross anime and it's related items will continue to be made regardless of the foreign downloaders.

SB

[sketchley]

(...)

Regardless of whether it's right or wrong the internet has allowed people to download things (...)

Heh. Don't you mean "made it possible"? "Allowed" implies legal permission, which is not the reality of the situation.

[snowboarder]

Heh. Don't you mean "made it possible"? "Allowed" implies legal permission, which is not the reality of the situation.

The reality of the situation is that most people don't give a hoot about "legal permission". They'll do it because they can and the chances of being punished are almost nill. You have a better chance of being hit by lightning while sitting in front of your computer posting to Macross World.

SB

[ff95gj]

First of all, the truth: I am cheap and confess that I download anime to watch most of the time.

Now it comes to personal thoughts. I simply cannot justify myself to pay US$700 to buy the Macross Frontier DVD/ Bluray. This is a sum I would not pay anyhow; regardless whether I can download it or not. Therefore, in a sense, I hurt nobody in doing so.

On the other hand, because I did watch MF, I pay a lot more on the merchandizes than if I haven't watched it. Therefore, in reality because of my pirating, they earn the money from me.

And more thoughts: I always think most artists (movies and pop musics) are way overpaid. I am pretty sure if their jobs are paid just like a... programmer, there would still be talented people with the enthusiasm to fill the ranks.

I have bought few CDs and DVDs compared to most people. I mostly listen to the radio and watch TV. I do pay for console games though (programming is hard).

[sketchley]

And more thoughts: I always think most artists (movies and pop musics) are way overpaid. I am pretty sure if their jobs are paid just like a... programmer, there would still be talented people with the enthusiasm to fill the ranks.

Oh really? http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2005-...or%27s-salaries

Compare that to the ¥2 million annual income unofficial poverty line*, and you have 46+% of Japanese animators living below the poverty line! Overpayed, my eye.

*http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/10/your-money/10iht-masia.html

[DreamsOfIshtar]

The reality of the situation is that most people don't give a hoot about "legal permission". They'll do it because they can and the chances of being punished are almost nill. You have a better chance of being hit by lightning while sitting in front of your computer posting to Macross World.

SB

This doesn't really address the issue of the internet 'allowing' illegal downloading. 'Enabling' or, as sketchley put it, 'making it possible' is far more accurate. You might even say 'encouraging'. 'Because they can' and any chances of repercussion has nothing to do with being 'allowed'. We do it without permission; it's really that simple. Were the punishment more severe or likely, we might not, but it's still just as disallowed either way. I do not believe we deserve any sense of privilege simply from a fast internet connection and a little mutorrent competency.

sketchley: thanks for that info. Tochiro is quick to remind me how underpaid most Japanese industry figures are -- be it the seiyuu, 'tarento' or producers. We had this same discussion regarding Hideaki Anno's supposed 'Eva Empire' -- people are too quick to believe that just because a franchise is popular that certain parties will be improportionately paid for it. From what I can tell, that's just not how it works in Japan. You can't really draw direct lines of income between the facets of a franchise -- a model Valkyrie, for example, might be only aesthetically linked to whatever Mikimoto or Kawamori created. Sure, there are probably some fees due for using said franchise, but I don't imagine much of the RRP of that model would see its way into any one pocket.

And with that, we can probably lay to rest any such arguments of 'I pirate for great justice against the wicked overpaid fat Cats of [insert company here]!'

[DreamsOfIshtar]

First of all, the truth: I am cheap and confess that I download anime to watch most of the time.

Now it comes to personal thoughts. I simply cannot justify myself to pay US$700 to buy the Macross Frontier DVD/ Bluray. This is a sum I would not pay anyhow; regardless whether I can download it or not. Therefore, in a sense, I hurt nobody in doing so.

On the other hand, because I did watch MF, I pay a lot more on the merchandizes than if I haven't watched it. Therefore, in reality because of my pirating, they earn the money from me.

And more thoughts: I always think most artists (movies and pop musics) are way overpaid. I am pretty sure if their jobs are paid just like a... programmer, there would still be talented people with the enthusiasm to fill the ranks.

I have bought few CDs and DVDs compared to most people. I mostly listen to the radio and watch TV. I do pay for console games though (programming is hard).

As I stated above, just because you buy related merchandise doesn't guarantee you're 'supporting the work' -- you may be, but it's nowhere near actually buying what you watch, or more specifically, paying for what you consume. These arguments of 'I'd never buy it anyway, so my stealing it doesn't hurt anybody' are terribly naive. I have no intention of reiterating why. Sometimes I buy legit, sometimes I pirate. But when I pirate I know there's no legal justification. It's me and my personal morals -- as someone said above, sometimes we're 'cheap and lazy'. Fine. Just don't pretend you're not doing the wrong thing, that you're 'hurting nobody'. I hate to use a trite truism, but there really is no such thing as a free lunch -- just a lunch someone else pays for.

[kung flu]

Yeah...I never understood the DVD region thing. The difference between NTSC and PAL for VHS tapes came about organically because of the difference between American and British TV sets...but (and please correct me if I'm wrong) region coding was deliberately imposed by...who? The DVD companies? The film companies?

The film companies wanted region coding to prevent people buying their films from other countries in which the film was not released yet. I remember getting many films from America on dvd and they weren't even available yet in the UK cinemas or shops. Also buying from the USA is much cheaper than buying in the UK