How much is too much for Macross?

[Tochiro]

A message came up in a thread recently which really rubbed me the wrong way and I felt the need to sound off to see what everyone’s views are.

The post in question came from Master Dex. Now Dex, I don’t know you, and I’m not intending for this to be an attack on you in any way shape or form, so please don’t take it as such.

Basically, the post was asking for a link to a torrent of a Fukuyama concert DVD (Tribute to Basara and Mylene). The reason given for looking was that the approx. $70 RRP for the DVD was too expensive. A fair enough justification for some I suppose, but not for me personally.

This started me wondering – where do most of us draw the line between supporting a product (Macross) or related artist (Fukuyama) and going for a ripped or pirated version?

Naturally, this is a harder question to answer when it comes to most things Macross, since most of it has not and will never be released locally for anyone outside of Japan. Compounded with this is the fact that even if people import there are no English subtitles, etc, for those that require them.

For me personally, the answer is originals of everything. I have all of Frontier on blyray, Zero on bluray, legit DVDs of May’n, Iijima, Nakajima, Fukuyama, etc. Macross is a series that has always been niche even here in Japan and as such I want to support it. But I can see how the language barrier is an issue for some.

Cost-wise however, I personally can’t see how a $70 price tag can be called too much. This is the standard Japanese price. It’s not like it has been artificially inflated by some dodgy import shop. And I won’t even go into the whole ‘entertainment is a privilege, not a right’ argument.

Some context – while working my way through university I had to pay 5800-7800yen per VHS for Macross 7, with about 3 eps per tape. I couldn’t afford much else but damn it was worth it at the time. Locally released product? Well in Australia a single episode of Macross Plus set fans back AU$45. And if you liked anime music you were in double trouble – the only legal way of acquiring anime CDs was through import shops who jacked up the prices. Like the music from Wings of Honneamise? Good, because the OST used to set you back AU$120-$150.

Compared to these prices, $70 for a rare concert DVD of a performer I want to support and want to do more music…well it seems fairly reasonable. Plus you can order the darn thing online! Heck, you can get anything online these days! I’m going to refrain from doing the whole ‘back in my day we had to swim to Japan just to watch a trailer’ old man schtick, but the hassle of getting the original OP/ED Macross 7 singles back when they were first released via a network of penfriends (no internet shopping in those days kids!) was monumental (but worth it once they arrived!).

Naturally things go out of print and can be just impossible to find (ie,Fukuyama’s Long Long Live DVD often goes for several hundred dollars on auction) in which case theres not much choice for fans in any country. But increasingly I seem to find people using standard Japanese prices as an excuse for downloading something they could easily get from Amazon Japan – and Amazon often knocks 10-20% off the price that most Japanese fans pay!

So has the glut of cheap DVDs in the US just altered our perceptions of what we are willing to pay? Or has the concept of supporting a series or artist just disappeared? What are you willing to pay? How much is too much?

(Once again, Master Dex, this is not an attack against you personally! I literally couldn’t sleep last night because I was thinking about this and am very interested to know where others draw the line, especially on a site as full as long-term fans as this!)

[sketchley]

(Speaking as someone living in Japan): the sales price is too high. However, that's what used shops are for. I've found some great deals for Macross anime DVDs, books, et al, at used shops.

However, using the high price as the justification for stealing is just, well, flawed logic. Basically it comes down to: if one didn't steal the item and paid for it like one is supposed to, not only will there be more of the item, it's cost will come down.*

So the point: you can't afford it, do without, or wait for it to be broadcast on TV.

* Ever wonder why items in a sex shop are so expensive (basically triple the suggested mark-up)? It's because a good majority of the products are stolen. The mark-up is to cover the stolen items. (Don't ask where I heard this from. No, never worked in a sex shop. Did work in a comic shop, and Magic The Gathering cards et al were marked up more than other products, because kids continually stole them).

[taksraven]

Like most shows that I watch. Generally I will watch the torrent version and if I like it enough and get the opportunity to do so I will legally purchase it later. This is especially the case for Doctor Who.

If anybody else wants to do anything else thats their own business and I don't care.

Taksraven

[kung flu]

I like to watch a show first, then decide whether i like it or not to buy the dvds. Regoin 1 dvds are cheap for me, but buying from Japan is really expensive. Fansubs is the only way i can watch new shows, like Macross frontier. Can't say i like Macross frontier enough to buy the dvds though. For me downloading movies is like watching TV.

[Mr March]

As one fan that paid the steep $250 price tag for the Animeigo SDF Macross set, I guess that explains my willingness for Macross

But seriously, I don't actually own that much Macross. I own several Macross books, albums, DVDs and a few toys. But even by North American fan standards, I do not own a lot of Macross. By otaku standards, my Macross collection would likely be considered that of a casual fan. Anime is the high end of the luxury items in which I indulge and as a result I have to carefully pick and choose what I buy because it is so expensive. I don't condone not paying for Macross merchandise (especially new stuff), but I can understand it especially in the context of expense and availability.

[Bri]

Internet downloading has brought down the price of a lot of entertainment content. This is not necessarily a bad thing. The prices of the last few decades were based on the market power of the producers. The more market power the higher the profits. It’s not relevant that downloading is legal or not, the only thing that matters is the impact of this development. Now the market power of the producers is broken, normal market rules apply: The companies that adapt to the new situation and can still create added value for their customers even when facing a cheap but inferior alternative will flourish. The price someone is prepared to pay for a DVD/Blu-ray or merchandise depends on the value of that item to them. I have no issue with paying the prices for Macross merchandise as it's simply worth it to me (DVD's are a different story with the whole HG thing).

It’s naïve to buy to products to support the producers. It only leads to inferior products; just buy the item that satisfies you most. Anime reflects that market perfectly; those who buy decide what kind of anime will be produced next. Downloading does not hurt this market much, it’s merely a kind of advertising. It’s voting with the wallet so to speak. The high sales of mecha anime DVD/Blurays may very well have b( r)ought about the renaissance of the genre.

Personally I have no issues with the fan subs; they allow me to sample the contents of current anime. Torrents have narrowed the gap between the Japanese fans in the Tokyo area who can watch pretty much everything on television and the rest of the world that mostly had to buy unseen or based on hearsay or reviews. A lot of good material that would never have gotten a chance a few years back now finds its way to fans worldwide.

Edited August 18, 2009 by Bri

[Penguin]

As someone who works in a field that generates intellectual property, I'm pretty scrupulous when it comes to minding other people's rights. I will admit to owning bootleg DVDs for DYRL and Macross 7, due to the region difference and no North American release (and no region-free DVD player for that matter), but I did go to the expense of buying the R2 DVD releases even though I can't watch them, just to make sure I've reimbursed the original IP holder (though also supporting the bootleggers, which I'm not entirely happy about... Macross addiction is a weakness). I've always bought original CDs, and since Blu-Ray I've been acquiring the official Japanese releases for Zero and Frontier and just downloading some translations to read along.

It is expensive (I try not to think about the accumulated cost of all the Frontier discs), but in my humble opinion, disagreement with asking price or inability to afford it does not confer a right to acquire someone else's IP illegally. I certainly wouldn't accept that as a rationale for someone stealing my IP.

[kung flu]

I've got the animeigo macross boxsets which is the only enlgish language macross show i own. I've got the japanese dvds for Zero, Dyrl (HD) and Mac plus (HD). If i look at my anime dvd collection its really a mix of usa, japan and hong kong dvds. UK dvds are crap.

Edited August 18, 2009 by kung flu

[taksraven]

However, using the high price as the justification for stealing is just, well, flawed logic. Basically it comes down to: if one didn't steal the item and paid for it like one is supposed to, not only will there be more of the item, it's cost will come down.*

* Ever wonder why items in a sex shop are so expensive (basically triple the suggested mark-up)? It's because a good majority of the products are stolen. The mark-up is to cover the stolen items. (Don't ask where I heard this from. No, never worked in a sex shop. Did work in a comic shop, and Magic The Gathering cards et al were marked up more than other products, because kids continually stole them).

Its an old argument that I have heard before, but there is a flipside to it. The best example for me personally is the computer game market.

To the best of my knowledge, computer game companies and marketers have usually argued that one of the main reasons for the high price of games ($80-$100 for a new release game in Australia) is the fact that piracy is so common so therefore they have to be highly priced so they can make their money back. This reason has never rang true to me for a couple of reasons. Hypothetically, if there was some magical way to abolish privacy overnight and it completely disappeared, does everybody really believe that the price of computer games would suddenly drop as well. My logic here is that if the industry makes enough money to survive now, even with their products selling for such high prices, why would they lower prices and risk not making as much money.

The other thing is that by having such high prices, I think that they are also reducing their potential market. I rarely buy computer games due to the high price and if I do buy them, it is usually older games that are marked down. BUT, I know that I would purchase more games to check out if the prices were lower, especially some of the newer games.

And its not just the computer game industry that is being hurt by inflated prices...

If you look at this article from the Herald-Sun.....

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,2...5006024,00.html

......it talks about how when Trent Reznor toured NIN here several years ago, he went into a CD shop and noticed that NIN new releases were on average $10 more expensive than new releases by the likes of Avril Lavigne. He later hassled some record company execs about it and the initially tried to claim that it was due to the packaging of NIN stuff that it had to be more expensive. Reznor called them on this BS and they admitted that they are aware of the fact that his band has a relatively hardcore fanbase that the companies know are more willing to fork out more money for a new NIN release. Reznor saw red at this point. In other words, since the fans liked the band so much they had to pay more. Pop music, however, remained cheap and disposable. He now actively encourages his fans to "steal" his music, but to pay for stuff from up and coming struggling artists. (There are a few performers in the music industry with this attitude)

So finally bringing this back to Macross and Macross-related material, I personally believe that if there was no stealing and piracy of the material that the prices would not drop and thats due to a combination of a strong fanbase for the franchise and the greed of those putting the material out.

Taksraven

[SchizophrenicMC]

I torrent it or watch it online and if I like it enough, I fork over the cash to buy it legally. Such is the case with a few Gundam anime, Azumanga Daioh, and Clannad. Nothing Macross, because only Plus and SDFM are available to me, and the store I get my anime DVDs from has jacked the price up because they only ever have one copy of each... And no one buys them.

Way I see it, it's much like seeing something on cable, recording it on my DVR, and watching it a few times later before going to the store and buying the DVD so I can watch it whenever I want without having to clutter up precious space in my DVR.

[sketchley]

(...)

So finally bringing this back to Macross and Macross-related material, I personally believe that if there was no stealing and piracy of the material that the prices would not drop and thats due to a combination of a strong fanbase for the franchise and the greed of those putting the material out.

Taksraven

Thank you for at least mentioning Macross in your two posts in this thread. Nevertheless, in both of them, you've neglected to answer the topic: "how much is too much?"

Your logic in the above quote is also flawed. The pricing is based on the production costs and what the market can bare. The Japanese market is small, so a large production run with a low price-per-unit will have a marginal effect on the retail price, as the number of units sold doesn't vary.

Now, if all the people currently stealing the IP actually purchased it, the people releasing the product will notice. Production runs would increase and per-unit costs would go down (obviously this won't happen instantly). That, or a domestic manufacturer in your territory of residence may acquire a license and produce it, with whatever language is spoken in your territory of residence. Win-win.

So yeah, answer the topic's question, and leave the illogical arguements for another discussion.

Edited August 19, 2009 by sketchley

[Renato]

Fukuyama’s Long Long Live DVD often goes for several hundred dollars on auction

Does it?? So how much would an autographed one go for??

I'm just kidding, I would never sell it. To be honest, though, it was Y5000, and was only sold through the Seesonic Records site, so you could not get it cheaper anywhere else. The sound is OK I guess, but the visuals are terrible, it was obviously recorded on handycams, and this was before HD ones were on the market. Add to that the horribly chopped up songs (I think we all wanted the full set list, in its entirety, but half of the songs are "short edits") and you have a fairly poor product, I am sorry to say. The highlight was obviously the 10-minute epic rendition of "My Brother" (one of Fukuyama's greatest songs ever), where he totally loses it and ends up playing the guitar with his foot, etc. ... But still, that's a lot of money for essentially an amateurish product. It should have been an introduction to new fans of what he can do other than Fire Bomber stuff, but it falls flat. Not to mention, only old fans would buy it anyway. I bought it because this concert was held like just two days before I arrived in Japan and I was really, really annoyed that I couldn't make it. 4 hours of non-stop Fukuyama, and I had missed it... Well, this single-disc DVD doesn't really make up for it, despite it costing more than the ticket price. But it was better than nothing, and I would rather have it than not.

The Fire Bomber 2005 DVD had high production value, and it shows. However, it is even more expensive than the Long Long Live one, even if it is two-discs. (Though the second one is only about 20 minutes at most). I felt I had to buy it because although I had gone to the concert this time, I wanted to re-live it in my home. A bit reluctantly, I paid the money again.

The third, "Electric Fire", I ignored for a long time. They were mostly the same songs as the previous DVD! What happened was that this time Chie "Mylene" Kajiura was part of the programme, something that should have been there from the beginning if you're gonna have a "FIRE BOMBER" concert. Also, this time the disc went on general release, so Amazon, high street retailers, etc. all could take orders for it and stock it. So why didn't the price go down? Sure enough, Amazon had the best deal, but the RRP was still high. I had decided, no, I wasn't going to spend my money on essentially the same stuff again just because. A few months later I checked out youtube and some online clips and after considering for a while, ordered it from Amazon. And I am glad I did, because there are a few gems in that concert, as well as on the second disc with all the acoustic stuff ("Feel Universe", etc) and the interviews, etc.

I have to agree that the price for DVDs and things in Japan is high, and careful consideration is needed. But then,　I'm sure they would be cheaper if the items in question weren't targeted to minor audiences in the first place. An average issue of Famitsu is 400+ yen, with over a hundred, maybe 200 pages, but Macross Chronicle has like 30 pages and is almost 700 yen.

Getting the Fukuyama DVDs on the general market was a good move, but he is still not a mainstream act. Then again, even Southern All-Stars DVDs are priced highly too, so I guess, nothing would change either way, just like Taksraven said.

At the end of the day, I don't regret buying any of the DVDs I bought (at least not the Macross / Fukuyama related ones). I got the Australian "Madman" release of the Macross SDF TV series because there was no way, no WAY, I was paying the ultra-extortionate prices for the DVDs here in Japan (where the bloody show was made). This was before the HD remaster, mind you. I watched all of Frontier on TV and that was enough. I don't think I want to watch it on the big screen because movies here are so expensive. But at the same time I had always dreamed of watching Macross on the big screen. I wish I had been here in 1984 or 1995 instead. THAT would've been money well spent.

I also don't regret all the CDs, I bought, looking back now, at really ridiculous import prices. Mari Iijima, loads of albums for like 30 GBP each (200% markup). Man. I could never do that today, I have many other priorities. But at the same time you want to support the artist.

Other reasons I buy stuff is for packaging. I have several vinyl Macross records which are displayed because they look fantastic, even though I have them all on CD (again, bought import with huge markup). But I only get those if they are cheap (500yen or so).

Sorry for all the rambling. At the end of the day, in the last few years I feel -- like many of us, I'll bet -- that I've gotten more selective and won't buy everything with the word "Macross" on it. Thank you Frontier, with your inflated prices for shoddy and embarassing products for making that choice so much easier! (hey, I had to add something!!)

[eugimon]

funny, releases in the US that have small target audiences are usually sold for considerably less than what a large mass market product would sell for. Something like Bubbahotep goes for 10-12 USD while a major release hollywood blockbuster that is going to sell an order of magnitude more copies will sell for 20 USD.

And then there's the really hardcore niche market, those poor guys get raped by the very property they keep alive. So much for brand loyalty.

[Graham]

For Macross or other favorite shows/groups etc I always buy original to support the creators/artists and damn the cost.

For stuff I may like, but which is not my favorite, I will sometimes go the rental/download/pirate route, but with the caveat that if I really like it, then I will buy the original.

Graham

[Master Dex]

You know I didn't even know this topic had a connection to me at all before this post? I just decided to look at it because I was curious to what it was referring.

I would be the first person to say that it is worth paying money to support a music artist or an industry you'd like. Of course you would then ask why I was wanting to know if there was a torrent for that concert since the price was high for me to buy it?

Well to tell you the truth, I am not above hypocrisy. I don't think I was being a hypocrite though. I only asked that because I had never seen Fukuyama-san perform anything on stage save for some bad quality youtube videos. I just wanted to see it since I've become such a big fan. I'm not saying me wanting to see it makes downloading a torrent right versus actually buying it though. I guess I don't have a definite idea of where I stand.

I do know that I am full willing to buy an import Fukuyama-san's CD albums to hear more form here, and I plan to... when I can afford it anyway.

As for Macross itself. I do have the entire Macross Frontier with Thora subs downloaded. I have DYRL as well, and Zero. Do I have an excuse beyond couldn't afford to buy them? Not so much, other than buying them wouldn't give me subs, and I'm not technically inclined enough to figure out how to add subs to a DVD (I don't even have Blu-Ray capability, still haven't fully gotten into HD age yet). Does that make it perfectly fine to get the shows the way I did, without paying? Not really.

I guess you could say I am not much of a perfect man, but I never considered myself much of one anyway. It is really about whether I can live with it enough for myself I suppose. I'll let others make their judgments about me as they see fit.

Is there a point I'd draw the line like the original poster first poised? Well I did say I plan to buy Yoshiki Fukuyama's albums, but that was more beside the point. I don't plan to download any of the other concerts, but that isn't really on moral grounds, I just felt it unnecessary after the one I did. As for Macross, I truthfully don't see how I'd see it otherwise, especially when I don't know if I'll like every series or every episode before I bought it on DVD. So I guess I draw a line between not knowing if it is worth me buying it and it being worthy enough for me to spend my time downloading in torrents just to be able to see it. It may sounds morally ambiguous, but I at least I know where I stand.

[taksraven]

Thank you for at least mentioning Macross in your two posts in this thread. Nevertheless, in both of them, you've neglected to answer the topic: "how much is too much?"

OK then, I thought that both of my previous posts were relevant but apparently they are not. Stupid me.

Q. How much is too much for Macross? A. I don't know. All I know is that I wish it was available commercially outside of Japan. Happy now?

Your logic in the above quote is also flawed. The pricing is based on the production costs and what the market can bare. The Japanese market is small, so a large production run with a low price-per-unit will have a marginal effect on the retail price, as the number of units sold doesn't vary.

Now, if all the people currently stealing the IP actually purchased it, the people releasing the product will notice. Production runs would increase and per-unit costs would go down (obviously this won't happen instantly). That, or a domestic manufacturer in your territory of residence may acquire a license and produce it, with whatever language is spoken in your territory of residence. Win-win.

I never said that my logic was perfect and would never claim that it was. It was the logic that works for me and lets me sleep at night, if it doesn't work for other I couldn't give a crap. Both sides of this argument have their merits, I will be the first to admit that and I side with the one that I talked about. (five 'I's in one paragraph, what an egomaniac I am!)

So yeah, answer the topic's question, and leave the illogical arguements for another discussion.

Have you been promoted to a Mod? If so, congrats Sketchley.

Look, I knew that when I replied to your post that you would be all over me for it. And I was right. Sketchley, going by your tone it seems that you have a personal problem with me. Please PM me so we can work it out, cause I'm sure thats what Azrael is going to tell us to do anyway. (Just saved you a post there, Azrael)

Taksraven

[Tochiro]

Well I get home from work and wow this thread has grown. Thanks very much for the thoughtful (not to mention civil) input everyone.

Now, before I reply to a few points, I realised that I didn't really answer my own question which hardly seems fair. Actually I'd say my views sit somewhere between those of Penguin and Renato. For me its a simple equasion of the cost versus the value of the product to me personally. Is the Long Long Live DVD worth a couple of hundred dollars to me? No, because it only has one or two songs that I want. But if I choose not to buy it then thats it, I've made my decision. I'm not going to download it because, like Penguin, I also work for a company that deals with IP and I value the rights of the IP holders. On the other hand, 7000yen for a double disc set full of Macross 7 songs done live – THAT is a different matter. Totally worth it in my opinion. Similarly, I picked up teh Macross F blurays because preordering from Amazon saved me 2000yen per disc. That coupled with the fact that it will never come out in the west AND the fact that I'm a huge Yoko Kanno fan? Done deal.

I can't agree with the arguement that downloading a show is just like watching it on tv – it isnt. The majority of anime either airs only on cable or else plays on cable first before hitting the free-to-air-stations. And cable is far from free – Japanese viewers either pay or else wait until it airs later on or is streamed online legally (ie, like Bandai has being doing since Gundam Seed – this is a Japan only service to avoid international licensing, distribution and rating issues). It seems to me that with the abundance and speed of information online, fans have formed into these little cliques that don't see the reality of the industry (or Japan in general) beyond their own little group. Japan is not some fantasy land where everyone watches anime and its totally free people pay. Whats more, companies base their prices on a model that generally assumes no international sales. They need to recoup all their producion and marketing costs AND make a profit in Japan alone. Hence the high prices. I know a lot of Japanese who are envious of how cheap US prices are. And yet people outside Japan often blatantly ignore this. What is this sense of entitlement to entertainment that some 'fans' have these days?

I know this is off topic but maybe its just a Gen X vs Gen Y thing. I was having a similar discussion with a younger friend last night and was interested to hear that while when I was in high school people swapped VHS tapes, when he was in school people just ripped each others DVD collections or downloaded. But more than that, it was his response when I pointed out the effect this has had on the industry that amazed me. He claimed it was 100% the anime companies fault for not adapting to the internet (read: pirates) and that while the industry in the US would probably die out sooner or later, the 'fans' would always download it online.

How can someone who doesnt support the industry even claim to be a 'fan'?

Sorry for the tangent, but I've been in Japan since 2000, so these sorts of differences in attitudes fascinate me.

Bri – I understand what you are trying to say about supporting faceless corporations being naive, but in the case of anime in general, and the example of Fukuyama in particular, I'm afraid you are just wrong. Sure, Bandai, et al, are huge corporations. Are they faceless? Not in Japan. They hold events for fans and also just for fanclub members, conduct polls at nearly every event to gauge what fans want more of, sponser major and local sporting events, hold model making workshops for other company's employees, etc – in other words they arent a big faceles corporation to me. Big, sure, but a part of the average fans life here. So you can't experience this from wherever you are, fine. But how is that their problem? It certainly isnt justification for downloading stuff illegally.

And in the case of a small anime artist like Fukuyama? The DVDs are often printed by his promotion company who handle orders one by one. But lets look at a different example. I recently picked up a Megumi Nakajima DVD at her recent concert. It was about 4800yen from memory. Included was an invitation to meet her (briefly) after the concert, which I did. Then I was given a survey to fill in about which of her concerts Id been to and also leave a message for her. The DVD was then released at Animate for the general public to buy. Based on these – both sales and messages – the next concert venue (if any) is decided. Its one connected loop and the fans pay a premium not just for the product but also to be part of this loop. Just because you are outside of the way this system works doesnt give anyone the right to pirate imo.

Granted, fansubs give fans a chance to weed the crap shows from the good which they can then purchase... in theory at least. The problem is that very few seem to continue on to the purchasing part.

Taksraven – Your example is pretty much irrelevant. Software prices in Australia are influenced by two major factors – the smaller market size and the need to convert the games into PAL. Granted the publishers then add a markup ontop of this and I think that the prices do need to come down. Can't see how it relates to the price of anime in Australia at all though which is, at times, cheaper than in the US even. My Japanese colleagues always get a kick out of the fact that I stock up on anime when I visit Australia and then bring it back to Japan.

Sketchley – basically I agree. If you can't afford it then you don't buy it. It would definately be interesting to see what effect the extra dollars would have on the industry if everyone who claimed they would buy a series after watching it actually did. I'd bet that all those extra dollars would result in Big West/Bandai buying out Harmony Gold and actually following up the original Macross with a direct sequel. Sigh... at least I can dream, right?

Renato – Its pretty freaky how similar our experiences buying stuff in the past seems to have been. I don't regret all the CDs I imported back when I lived in Australia either. Heck, just looking at the covers brings back some awesome memories. Then again, I am a self confessed physicall media whore. I need something to show that I've bought a product and heck the Mikimoto artwork on most stuff related to the original Macross certainly doesnt make the covers look any worse! ;-)

Master Dex – Thanks for chiming in and being a good sport about all this. Honestly, I think it was just a combination of the way your original post was worded AND the conversation I had with a friend (see above) that set me off. Personally, going through university when Fire Bomber were at their 'peak' (so to speak) meant that I felt a close personal connection to the band and Fukuyama so I feel pretty strongly about supporting them and also Macross in general. It is SO niche here in Japan – most Japanese don't remember it and events like concerts are really a kind of fan service in a way.

Now as for my views on people who download the blurau versions of anime/Macross...grrr... don't even get me started!

[taksraven]

Taksraven – Your example is pretty much irrelevant. Software prices in Australia are influenced by two major factors – the smaller market size and the need to convert the games into PAL. Granted the publishers then add a markup ontop of this and I think that the prices do need to come down. Can't see how it relates to the price of anime in Australia at all though which is, at times, cheaper than in the US even. My Japanese colleagues always get a kick out of the fact that I stock up on anime when I visit Australia and then bring it back to Japan.

Yes, clearly Australia is the only country in the world that uses PAL.

Look at the reality of the map. There is no reason why Australia should face a massive extra cost for PAL.

I cited the computer games market because it is generally one that I am more familiar with. Some people mentioned more obscure markets than that.

If my example is irrelevant, whatever. I was just trying to make some useful input. Even if you think that we have cheaper prices for anime here it doesn't matter cause we still dont have a lot of stuff that is available in other countries. And that includes most (but not all) Gundam stuff that I also like to collect and have had to import. Same for the ADV release of Gatchaman.

Taksraven

Edited August 19, 2009 by taksraven

[SchizophrenicMC]

Man, what is with all the Australians on the internet and their "poor me, living on a secluded island where everything's expensive" attitude? Ruskii doesn't have that!

Software in Australia is influenced by ONE thing and one thing only: the small market, which Australia's pretty much in for for everything, since it's an island nation no one cares about and is only remembered for Kangaroos and Koalas.

No offense, I'm just being blunt here.

[Bri]

Whats more, companies base their prices on a model that generally assumes no international sales. They need to recoup all their producion and marketing costs AND make a profit in Japan alone. Hence the high prices. I know a lot of Japanese who are envious of how cheap US prices are. And yet people outside Japan often blatantly ignore this. What is this sense of entitlement to entertainment that some 'fans' have these days?

I know this is off topic but maybe its just a Gen X vs Gen Y thing. I was having a similar discussion with a younger friend last night and was interested to hear that while when I was in high school people swapped VHS tapes, when he was in school people just ripped each others DVD collections or downloaded. But more than that, it was his response when I pointed out the effect this has had on the industry that amazed me. He claimed it was 100% the anime companies fault for not adapting to the internet (read: pirates) and that while the industry in the US would probably die out sooner or later, the 'fans' would always download it online.

How can someone who doesnt support the industry even claim to be a 'fan'?

Bri – I understand what you are trying to say about supporting faceless corporations being naive, but in the case of anime in general, and the example of Fukuyama in particular, I'm afraid you are just wrong. Sure, Bandai, et al, are huge corporations. Are they faceless? Not in Japan. They hold events for fans and also just for fanclub members, conduct polls at nearly every event to gauge what fans want more of, sponser major and local sporting events, hold model making workshops for other company's employees, etc – in other words they arent a big faceles corporation to me. Big, sure, but a part of the average fans life here. So you can't experience this from wherever you are, fine. But how is that their problem? It certainly isnt justification for downloading stuff illegally.

And in the case of a small anime artist like Fukuyama? The DVDs are often printed by his promotion company who handle orders one by one. But lets look at a different example. I recently picked up a Megumi Nakajima DVD at her recent concert. It was about 4800yen from memory. Included was an invitation to meet her (briefly) after the concert, which I did. Then I was given a survey to fill in about which of her concerts Id been to and also leave a message for her. The DVD was then released at Animate for the general public to buy. Based on these – both sales and messages – the next concert venue (if any) is decided. Its one connected loop and the fans pay a premium not just for the product but also to be part of this loop. Just because you are outside of the way this system works doesnt give anyone the right to pirate imo.

Granted, fansubs give fans a chance to weed the crap shows from the good which they can then purchase... in theory at least. The problem is that very few seem to continue on to the purchasing part.

I’m afraid you completely missed my point. I don’t care whether the seller is a one man show or a multinational corporation; I buy a product that I feel is worth the price. If I don’t like a Macross anime I won’t buy it. If I do like it I will buy it along as I feel the price is worth the product. I don’t buy something I feel is poor just because mr Kawamori is such a nice person with great ideas. Mindless fanboyism just leads to lazy producers and poor sequels, just look at some of the more recent Gundams. However, if you get a warm fuzzy feeling from buying originals to support the producer, naïve as I think it may be, then that certainly gives you an added benefit and may be worth the price. It all comes down to individual preferences.

The example you gave perfectly illustrate my point. The Megumi Nakajima DVD gives you a possibility to meet her and offers influence on future projects. That’s the added value I’m talking about. It makes it worth buying it at a premium. Someone abroad won’t have these added benefits and the costs including shipping might be too much so he or she would just download it, because they can. Does Megumi lose out here? No, the foreign fan would not have bought her product in the first place. If downloading in Japan does not affect her domestic sales then any album exported is simply marginal revenue. In effect the torrents are free advertisement for her. This effect really holds for all anime. The people really getting hurt here are the licensing companies whose prices have been driven down due to downloading. They can't compete effectively with fansubs. It's quite possible that the licensing market will die, but they are just a middleman. If this step in the chain no longer adds value for consumers then it's better for this part of the industry to disappear.

“So you can't experience this from wherever you are, fine. But how is that their problem? It certainly isnt justification for downloading stuff illegally.”

Nor is it my problem, under Dutch law it is perfectly legal to download for domestic use even if the original source is illegal. Side effect of the freedom of information act and tough luck for the anime producers. That’s my benefit for being an outsider, I don’t have to shoulder the burden. Anime is focused on the Japanese home market, don’t confuse service and consumer satisfaction with personal relationships or caring. Catering to demand is just good business sense. Producing anime is a market like any other. I don’t have a particular rozy view of it given the harsh working conditions for staff. The Japanese fans are the launching customers and get certain benefits in exchange, but they pay a premium for that service.

Edited August 19, 2009 by Bri

[Tochiro]

Bri - A minor quibble but I find it interesting that you go straight from buying new at a premium price to downloading illegally. What happened to the many options in between? Online sellers, 2nd hand sellers, auctions, possible reduced re-releases?

In my opinion going straight from one extreme to the other also shows a thought pattern I personally don't understand. And marginal or not, a loss in revenue is a loss in revenue.

But then again it may just be me. Its funny, the views of non-Japanese anime fans seem to have become increasingly alien to me over the years. Probably because Japan is one of the major physical media markets. People buy, then if they lose interest they sell. Hence the huge chain of Book Off stores across the nation. Going from buying new at a premium to downloading isnt an attitude I come accross very often.

[Tochiro]

Yes, clearly Australia is the only country in the world that uses PAL.

Look at the reality of the map. There is no reason why Australia should face a massive extra cost for PAL.

I cited the computer games market because it is generally one that I am more familiar with. Some people mentioned more obscure markets than that.

If my example is irrelevant, whatever. I was just trying to make some useful input. Even if you think that we have cheaper prices for anime here it doesn't matter cause we still dont have a lot of stuff that is available in other countries. And that includes most (but not all) Gundam stuff that I also like to collect and have had to import. Same for the ADV release of Gatchaman.

Taksraven

Ok, to rephrase - its the PAL issue PLUS the limited local market PLUS region coding PLUS the need to go through a ratings board that often has bizarre demands PLUS the shifty distributors markup?

The one PAL version does not necessarily get used in all regions. I work in the videogame industry and this is fact.

[Bri]

Bri - A minor quibble but I find it interesting that you go straight from buying new at a premium price to downloading illegally. What happened to the many options in between? Online sellers, 2nd hand sellers, auctions, possible reduced re-releases?

In my opinion going straight from one extreme to the other also shows a thought pattern I personally don't understand. And marginal or not, a loss in revenue is a loss in revenue.

But then again it may just be me. Its funny, the views of non-Japanese anime fans seem to have become increasingly alien to me over the years. Probably because Japan is one of the major physical media markets. People buy, then if they lose interest they sell. Hence the huge chain of Book Off stores across the nation. Going from buying new at a premium to downloading isnt an attitude I come accross very often.

Downloading may or may not be illegal depending on where you are, but this is not really important, The reality is that downloading can be done without consequence. The choice the individual faces then becomes buy or download. The fan will then only buy if he or she gains more satisfaction from buying then downloading. This does not necesarily mean a superior product but it can be as simple as a good feeling for "supporting the original artist". However this is all basic consumer choice theory.

As for marginal revenue, it's not a loss. It's similar to selling last minute seats on a flight. If your plane is filled for 80% and the flight will happen then the costs are considered sunk. Selling any remaining seats at a discount (even below average cost) is still added income.

As for the options in between:

Online shipping - The buyer faces Japanese retail prices plus shipping costs and import fees/taxes. Only fans who really want that product buy it. Not to mention the lack of subs on Japanese anime reduce the potential number of buyers abroad even more. Japanese is not a lingua franca.

Second hand sales and auctions - these don't add anything to the income of the original artist nor will it affect the artists future endavours.

Reduced rereleases -these are pretty much the same as licensed products. Lower quality at lower prices. The only edge a producer has over downloads are the extras. Like a physical item (CD/DVD or Bluray in case), booklets, DVD/Blu-ray extras and customer benefits. Remove these and you lose the edge over downloads.

A lot is the result of the odd situation of anime being produced and marketed to a national market while there is international demand. It will be very interesting to see how the anime industry will cope with this issue in the coming years.

Edited August 19, 2009 by Bri

[sketchley]

Bri - A minor quibble but I find it interesting that you go straight from buying new at a premium price to downloading illegally. What happened to the many options in between? Online sellers, 2nd hand sellers, auctions, possible reduced re-releases?

In my opinion going straight from one extreme to the other also shows a thought pattern I personally don't understand. And marginal or not, a loss in revenue is a loss in revenue.

But then again it may just be me. Its funny, the views of non-Japanese anime fans seem to have become increasingly alien to me over the years. Probably because Japan is one of the major physical media markets. People buy, then if they lose interest they sell. Hence the huge chain of Book Off stores across the nation. Going from buying new at a premium to downloading isnt an attitude I come accross very often.

I second this.

I'd also like to add that it is really bad form to automatically assume that Japan is a carbon copy of your country of residence. This is important in two respects: internet, and methods of distribution.

Internet:

The internet age dawned late in Japan. By the time broadband had become established in North America, dial-up was still getting started. (Blame NTT and their pricey per-minute local call charge rates if you need to point fingers). Even after dial-up had been established, use of the internet didn't grow as fast or as far as in North America. Even now, a few short years later, with Japan leap-frogging over broadband and straight to fibre-optic connections in most areas, the penetration is still small compared to North America. Compare it to the mobile phone (or cellular) internet in Japan - it's breadth and scope has grown astonishingly fast in the past few years. It has also become a medium for distribution. Of course, in this means of distribution, users are paying creators, and the product received is oft temporary in nature.

Methods of distribution (of anime):

There are basically three forms: TV, retail and rental. TV is fairly self-explanitory, so straight to rental: in many regards, the rental market is assuming the role of internet distribution in other parts of the world. Tsutaya's discas service is a prime example: the customer, using the internet, orders a DVD (or whatever) that they want to rent over the internet (usually the mobile internet, but the office computer also works). When they get home that night, the rented video is in their mailbox (yes, Japan Post, and the rival postal service Yamato Shipping ARE that efficient. Mail twice a day. Yay!). They watch it, and pop it in the mail the next morning on their way to work.

Even without that service, one has to keep in mind that rental DVDs et al are quite expensive for rental shops to buy. It's something on the order of double or triple the retail cost, in order for the distributors to recoup costs (not to mention the smaller production runs increasing costs).

Anyhow, the point is that rental is one of the, if not the main means of distribution of anime. The costs on the customer are low, and there are no long-term space requirements; which is very important to keep in mind, as Japanese housing is small. Very small. Without going into too much detail, there isn't very much space within a house to fill with collectables (and anime DVDs et al are defined as such). I've heard stories of people tossing expensive ski gear that they've only used three times, because they don't have the space to store it in their residence. Expanding this to include anime, and you get two things:

a) high retail costs (only a very few members of fandom like a particular series enough to actually purchase it)

b) (Tochiro's afforementioned) high number of used books/DVD/etc shops that a fan who, usually out of want of space, has had to sell their beloved DVDs et al to.

So yeah, remember one's low cost alternative options before one resorts to stealing. And be proactive in getting companies in one's country of residence, as that's the business paradigm that anime distributors are using, and their not likely to change it any time soon, unless they see it as financially viable (Bandai's release of Gundam in English, anyone?)

Ammendum: and yes, I've used rental shops. It was great fun watching all of Macross 7 and Macross 0 on rented VHS (it was pre Remastered) and DVD, with the added bonus of absolutely no storage space requirements! And what you talking about watching it more than once? Me and all of Japan barely have enough time to watch something once!

Edited August 19, 2009 by sketchley

[Bri]

I second this.

I'd also like to add that it is really bad form to automatically assume that Japan is a carbon copy of your country of residence. This is important in two respects: internet, and methods of distribution.

quite expensive for rental shops to buy. It's something on the order of double or triple the retail cost, in order for the distributors to recoup costs (not to mention the smaller production runs increasing costs).

[...]

Anyhow, the point is that rental is one of the, if not the main means of distribution of anime. The costs on the customer are low, and there are no long-term space requirements; which is very important to keep in mind, as Japanese housing is small. Very small. Without going into too much detail, there isn't very much space within a house to fill with collectables (and anime DVDs et al are defined as such). I've heard stories of people tossing expensive ski gear that they've only used three times, because they don't have the space to store it in their residence. Expanding this to include anime, and you get two things:

a) high retail costs (only a very few members of fandom like a particular series enough to actually purchase it)

b) (Tochiro's afforementioned) high number of used books/DVD/etc shops that a fan who, usually out of want of space, has had to sell their beloved DVDs et al to.

[...]

So yeah, remember one's low cost alternative options before one resorts to stealing. And be proactive in getting companies in one's country of residence, as that's the business paradigm that anime distributors are using, and their not likely to change it any time soon, unless they see it as financially viable (Bandai's release of Gundam in English, anyone?)

You provide a very interesting insight in to the Japanese anime market. However, regardless of the way of distribution, the Japanese market is the one paying for the production of anime. Those paying customers, few as they may be, determine what anime gets made next (more moe anyone?).

Both you and Tochiro seem to be focussed on the illegal nature of downloading. However in several countries it is legal to download, so it is not stealing. So what options do non-Japanese speaking fans abroad have? Japanese imports, licensed versions and downloads. Japanese imports are expensive(if we discount cheap auctions) and more importantly dont have subs. Licensed versions often lack the extras of Japanese versions and are released quite a while after the Japanese versions(dubbing takes time) and outside of the US the selection is very limited. Downloads offer quality on par with the licensed version and only a few days after the Japanese broadcasts (fansubs)/releases(rips) at the cost of a broadband internet connection.

Unless you really value having a hardcopy, or the extras on a DVD of either a Japanese version or a licensed version, downloads win hands down in terms of value for money. Personally I have several original Japanese Bluray/DVDs versions of my favourite anime. Just out of a desire to have the best possible quality, call it fan greed. Ironically I would never have bought the amount of merchandise and DVDs I have now if not for being able to download. As for the storage argument (Japan is hardly unique in having a high population density) a shelf full of external harddrives has more storage capacity then a house filled with DVDs;).

Some suggestions have been proposed in the EU like adding taxes on internet connections or PCs to compensate content producers like was done with videotapes, soundcassettes and CD-Rs. It will be interesting to see where this all leads.

Edited August 19, 2009 by Bri

[Vifam7]

Both you and Tochiro seem to be focussed on the illegal nature of downloading. However in several countries it is legal to download, so it is not stealing.

Not exactly. Anime is made in Japan and Japanese anime companies prescribe to Japanese laws. That means, a distributor of the program must have a license with the rights holder (say Macross from Big West). Just because a country allows downloading does not mean it's not stealing.

So what options do non-Japanese speaking fans abroad have? Japanese imports and licensed versions and downloads. Japanese imports are expensive(if we discount cheap auctions) and more importantly dont have subs. Licensed versions often lack the extras of Japanese versions and are released quite a while after the Japanese versions(dubbing takes time) and outside of the US, the selection is very limited.

Simply put, the option is DEAL WITH IT. Kids these days are so spoiled they want everything on a silver platter now now now. And to top it off, they won't pay up. (Not pointing at you Bri)

The quality and amount of stuff available (at least here in the states) have been quite decent and plentiful. I feel for those outside the US, but just because your country doesn't have a legit anime market doesn't mean you have the right to steal.

I hear that in some countries, the piracy is so bad, legit companies simply can't operate there.

Downloads offer quality on par with the licensed version and only a few days after the Japanese broadcasts (fansubs)/releases(rips) at the cost of a broadband internet connection.

Unless you really value having a hardcopy, or the extras on a DVD of either a Japanese version or a licensed version, downloads win hands down in terms of value for money.

As it's been said many times on various other forums - "YOU CAN'T BEAT FREE!".

Exactly how are anime companies supposed to make money when "fans" won't support them financially? Anime companies aren't charity organizations ya know.

Now granted, I haven't been the cleanest fan out there. I have done some downloading myself, but I do try to buy legit DVDs and ofcourse the toys as often as possible.

Edited August 19, 2009 by Vifam7

[kung flu]

If the UK anime market was the same as the USA or Japan, then i would fully support it, but its always been rubbish here in the UK, with overpriced crap titles and we don't have much of a library of shows to pick compared to the USA. So when I download a show its not because i want to steal it, but because its not available in my country. I'm grateful for the internet for giving me greater access to many titles which i may not have heard of before thanks to the downloads and i can actually order dvds online from shops in USA and Japan direct. Before the internet i had to settle for hong kong vhs recordings from relatives and they were always crap quality.

[Bri]

I know I am playing the devils advocate here but let's continue for arguments sake.

Not exactly. Anime is made in Japan and Japanese anime companies prescribe to Japanese laws. That means, a distributor of the program must have a license with the rights holder (say Macross from Big West). Just because a country allows downloading does not mean it's not stealing.

Simply put, the option is DEAL WITH IT. Kids these days are so spoiled they want everything on a silver platter now now now. And to top it off, they won't pay up. (Not pointing at you Bri)

The quality and amount of stuff available (at least here in the states) have been quite decent and plentiful. I feel for those outside the US, but just because your country doesn't have a legit anime market doesn't mean you have the right to steal.

I hear that in some countries, the piracy is so bad, legit companies simply can't operate there.

You can only say -deal with it- if you negotiate from a position of power. In this case the power lies with the offenders. Kids these days are simply dealing with it, they download what ever they want, and they can't be stopped or persecuted as it's allowed by law. That an offence has been commited to put it online in the first place is not their problem. Might makes right you know. The criminals of today are the legit companies of tomorow. Take Crunchy Roll, a ligitimate anime streaming company, has its roots in the fansub community and hires former/current fansubbers to sub their legitimate content.

As it's been said many times on various other forums - "YOU CAN'T BEAT FREE!".

Exactly how are anime companies supposed to make money when "fans" won't support them financially? Anime companies aren't charity organizations ya know.

Please explain this concept to producers of bottled water. Tap water is free yet these companies are making a living of selling drinkable water at a high premium. Anime companies simply have to find a way to make money of the changed conditions. There are ways ya know. For example selling related merchandise world wide (Macross anyone?), high quality subscriber streams, Japanese versions with english, spanish and chinese subs, heck put a lottery ticket in each DVD box for an escort with a seiyuu. Anything you can think of really.

Edited August 19, 2009 by Bri

[eugimon]

Not exactly. Anime is made in Japan and Japanese anime companies prescribe to Japanese laws. That means, a distributor of the program must have a license with the rights holder (say Macross from Big West). Just because a country allows downloading does not mean it's not stealing.

As I understand it... If a license holder hasn't copyrighted the material in the appropriate country than they have no legal right to sell that material or profit from it in that particular country. So while it's probably illegal for the person allowing access to Japanese programing outside of it's intended market (illegal distribution) it isn't illegal for people outside of the intended market to download the material since the copyright holder doesn't have the copyrights to that material in the country in question.

edit:: and what constitutes "legal viewing" is pretty arbitrary as well.. case in point, the NFL and their 55" and no more than 5 speakers rule. That's right, if you have a big ass TV and a 7.1 sound system you may be in violation of the NFL's copyright.

Edited August 19, 2009 by eugimon

[Master Dex]

Well, this topic sure has launched off. I think I've said everything I need to say though. I don't care to debate things regardless of what I or others believe.

If it matters to anyone's interest by the way, I bought my copy of Macross Plus the movie, only ever seen the OVA as the English dub on TV, and only seen SDFM either as Robotech or online through low quality streaming (not downloaded though) - same for M7 and it's appendages. So I probably have only downloaded about 40% of the Macross stuff that exists. Not that that makes it anymore legit or anything, just saying, I'm not totally bad.

[Vifam7]

Please explain this concept to producers of bottled water. Tap water is free yet these companies are making a living of selling drinkable water at a high premium. Anime companies simply have to find a way to make money of the changed conditions. There are ways ya know. For example selling related merchandise world wide (Macross anyone?), high quality subscriber streams, Japanese versions with english, spanish and chinese subs, heck put a lottery ticket in each DVD box for an escort with a seiyuu. Anything you can think of really.

I suppose in a way, you can already see the changes anime companies have been making. Like more content being shown online, episode counts being shorter, prices being higher, broadcast episodes being watered-down, and content having more "moe" or being based on titles that have succeeded in the past or in other media like video games. It's hard to say which are right moves and which are the wrong moves.

Edited August 19, 2009 by Vifam7

[Renato]

Yep, this issue of premium content with DVDs is a good motivation for sales. But they are still expensive... As Sketchley said, though, you can often find plenty of bargains at second-hand places like Book-Off in Japan.

Most of the few DVDs I have bought in recent years have been 2nd hand: the Steamboy special edition 4-disc set (3 or 4000 yen, originally like 10,000), the Akira special edition 2-disc set complete with full storyboard (I think that was 4000 yen too, probably 8000 yen or so originally), The Girl Who Leapt Through Time 3-disc-plus-book-plus-random-phone-strap-thing-set (again, 4000 yen, 10,000 new), and the Aquarion DVD volume 1, complete with box and storyboard book (700 from like 5000 yen!).

Most of those I bought because they were cheap. Downloaded, they would have been free, but as mentioned before, the tangible factor is very convincing for me. Hell, I haven't even finished watching all of the discs on the "Girl Who Leapt...".

The only times I thought I must have it now was the DYRL remastered edition. Which I thought is still overpriced with the extras being odd... I mean, one entire DVD is wasted on having the same movie again, but in monaural audio. What the hell is the point, if you asolutely must put that in, why not have an alternate track on the first DVD? I don't want to pay a premium for that crap. I chose to buy it for the added 200+ page storyboard book. The actual DVD content left a lot to be desired. I guess Bandai Visual kind of won that battle though. The downloaders would be getting more or less nothing new, while the hardcore fans had to pay extra for loads of stuff they don't need, just to get the one or two things they do want. If they had included newly-filmed interviews and stuff, it would have been a lot more worthwhile to me, but they would need to recouperate more production costs, as that stuff can be downloaded easily.

What was really odd was the "All that VF" promotion, though. They must have known that would not remain exclusive for long...

[DreamsOfIshtar]

"Software in Australia is influenced by ONE thing and one thing only: the small market, which Australia's pretty much in for for everything, since it's an island nation no one cares about and is only remembered for Kangaroos and Koalas.

No offense, I'm just being blunt here. "

'no one cares about' Australia except for, say, the 20 million+ people living here, and whoever is scattered around the world with any personal interest in any one of those 20 million+. 'No offense' nullified by the sheer idiocy of your hyperbole. I'm Australian, born and raised, and I've never seen a koala in the wild. I've also lived in the US for five years, so at least one of us has the experience to comment on other cultures beyond tired cliches. I find your bluntness far less offensive than your blithely-deployed ignorance.

The rest of this thread has done Tochiro's post more than enough justice with its thoughtful, constructive debate. I'm sorry someone had to buck the trend.

----

I'm going to offer a combination of views from what I've read here by telling you mine: as I've said, I'm Australian with fairly extensive experience in the NTSC region -- I've had the superfast/unlimited cable of the US, and I'm wrestling with the so-so/limited DSL of Australia.

That I have placed emphasis on these indicates one thing: I am a pirate and have been for about as long as I can remember. I have certain rules and limitations, but these are less moral than habitual: music and tv shows are free game to me; movies and games are generally not, unless they're really rare. I'll explain these in a bit.

High school for me was all about hunting down very poor copies of VHS anime, sometimes so damaged the screen would go black-and-white while watching it. I had a disk drive for my super famicom; I traded pirated PC games, photocopied the manuals (back when they had copy protection of that sort), the whole deal. When the 'net came along, I happily waited half an hour to an hour for an mp2 from some Tokyochat Geocities site -- this was amazing. No longer did I have to trek into Chinatown to scour through those dodgy Song May anime and vg ost cds. Man, this was the future...

But then a funny thing happened. Australia's internet clearly fell behind the rest of the 'Western' world. This, combined with my residual love for physical media (I am not above buying bootlegs to this day, but the cost of legit sets is fast dropping to meet bootleg sets halfway) meant that I was still paying for what others were getting for free. I'll admit it -- I got a bit elitist about my old piracy, about how much harder it used to be to steal things (and that's all it ever was, whether we were fans or not). My collection continued to be ruled by one thing: availability. To me, if the quality sufficed, a bootleg of an anime series sat next to a legit box (and they were still very rare back then).

DVD used to be a lot more elitist too. I had one of the first in my circle of friends (carried the darn thing back from the US and promptly blew it out with twice the required power supply), and comparing it to the current situation of Bluray is not inaccurate. My first anime on DVD was Record of Lodoss Wars, and my God was it ever pretty compared to the VHS. At that very moment, I knew that I would pay for quality.

Australia's internet is still pretty bad. I can torrent tv shows and music, but the quality of the former is poor compared to an official dvd set, and the latter only makes me wish I could hear it live. So that's what I do: I torrent and then purchase, or make effort to see the music live. I buy the merch. And here is where I feel anime is really, really struggling: for everything else pirated, there is some higher offering. Pirate a tv show, get the box, get extra features, higher quality. Pirate music, get into it, see it live. Pirate a movie (ugh, I so rarely do -- dvds are dead cheap these days for general movies), get it on Bluray if you really like it. Pirate a game and, well...I'll admit it. I just don't appreciate a game I've pirated as much as one I've browsed at the shop, thought about, then paid for, came home, read the manual...that whole ritual is something that has stuck with me since the days of Wing Commander and Monkey Island.

Pirate anime and what do you get? A fairly clear .mkv with fansubs. You get the complete package. Of course, anime on Bluray is a whole other experience, but most people I know who happily pirate anime aren't that concerned with the quality. They just want their shows and they want them now. Some even have internet connections sufficient to torrent bluray-level material. This blows my mind, quite honestly. There must be some cost for higher quality in my opinion: you can youtube a show for free sometimes, but it looks pretty bad. Then you can torrent it if you've the patience. It's still not that great. But if you really love it and want to see it in all its glory, you acknowledge it's worth paying for and get that bluray set.

Basically, I do justify my acquisitions by spending on what may be peripheral products -- higher quality versions, mooks and concerts, mostly. Oh, and if I see a cheaper anime box set, I'll definitely snatch it up -- it's just easier to buy it than wait a week+ to DL it. Also, they look good on my shelves. I have and love the Original Macross series in a box set. I'm pretty sure I have some Macross 7 running around on pirated VCD from my Hong Kong days. I had Macross II (dubbed) on VHS, the original Kiseki release I believe, but that's long gone so recently re-acquired it through a torrent and still have a soft spot for it.

I'm not going into pricing discussions or region locking. The former is speculation at best, the latter is becoming less and less relevant again (thankfully). Steal all you want -- just remember the money has to come from somewhere. There needs to be a balance. By all means, don't allow yourself to be gouged by some of those ridiculous prices. How much is too much, Tochiro? Easy: more than you're willing to pay. Because it all comes down to what it's worth to you. And if no one is willing to pay the set price, that set price won't last forever. But you have to figure someone is, because there are still some crazy high prices for certain items out there. That or maybe the sellers just aren't that desperate. Neither of these really pertain to your query. I think some of the items you cited are far too niche to say they're driven by much of a market -- to me, they're not unlike the memorabilia you see in any number of gift shops at the mall. A signed poster of whoever, framed and shiny -- wtf? THAT MUCH?...same thing. Someone thinks someone else believes it's worth that much. So the price remains.

Those living in Japan are used to paying 6-7000yen for a double dvd of a live concert. That sort of price would never fly in either Australia or the US, not as a general wide-spread release. But if that concert doesn't get a western release (for example, Sakamoto's 'Kazeyomi'), then I think it's better to fork out that higher price and get the real thing than simply download it. (exception: if you're really impatient and have a legit order placed. I am so very guilty of that one...) To a degree, the internet, as a disseminator of information, has made varying prices in different countries harder to maintain, but I still don't hesitate to pay 30-40% more than an American for the same game. It's just ingrained in me that new releases cost that much. Of course, now that the price of new PS3 games here has cleared a hundred AUS, I'm far, far more selective -- but I still buy the game if I really want it. Amazon won't ship games overseas for fairly obvious reasons. Thankfully this same policy has not touched other media, and I am constantly watching the exchange rate.

I think habit and routine, the inertia of consumers, is a force not to be discounted when it comes to asking 'how much is too much?'

...Oh, and for those you STILL reading, here's a little reward: I've seen Macross Frontier, under much protest and after much procrastination, because Tochiro sent me the whole series in .avi format.

[i believe he's collecting it on bluray now, but I've no intention of doing so (or of watching it again in a hurry, even if I did trek to Japan to hear the music live -- well, fine, that and everything else Kanno's done...). ]

EDIT ADDED PS: I am extremely jealous of Japan's rental/resale model -- A local Book-Off would rock my world. Then again, it'd probably be full of crap...

Edited August 20, 2009 by DreamsOfIshtar

[sketchley]

(...)

EDIT ADDED PS: I am extremely jealous of Japan's rental/resale model -- A local Book-Off would rock my world. Then again, it'd probably be full of crap...

You never know. A store may be opening near you: http://www.bookoff.co.jp/en/info/kaigai07.html

[DreamsOfIshtar]

You never know. A store may be opening near you: http://www.bookoff.co.jp/en/info/kaigai07.html

Yeah, but where I live, bookshops actually go out of business because reading has become that antiquated -- and the bookshops we do have sell, let's see, Twilight, Twilight, sports' personalities biographies, Twilight, Harry Potter, and oh look, Twilight derivatives. *This* is why Tochiro left me (and the rest of the country) and I totally do not blame him.

At the very best, a Book-Off here would be sort of like Kinokuniya for tightwads, which just means *more* "omg-it's-sokawaii-desu!" fans oogle-bubbling over the latest shounen/-jo sensation. Nthx, as they say on the internet.