HG and Robotech Debates

[Freiflug88]

Isn't that how fanatical Robotech die-hards like Pizza and MEMO see us?

I dunno, I always they figured they just saw us the same way we see them: As overzealous [insert franchise name here] fans with no life.

Don't get me wrong. I loved the Star Wars: the Empire Strikes Back joke you pulled. I was just trying to make a joke about the consequences that becoming Darth Vader would have on the balance of force (ie. Macross versus Robotech).

they seem to regard me either as an agent of some sort of sinister, subversive, Illuminati-like group headed up by Big West with the sole aim of bringing Robotech down to make way for Macross

If only that were the case. Then we would have had Macross over here years ago.

I'm pretty sure its just a POS toy with no redeeming qualities other than being cheap.

Use as slingshot ammo against Robotech fans could be a redeeming quality.

[VF5SS]

I mean come on the thing is a convention exclusive that isn't even indicative of the product itself. Also the QC was pretty bad.

[Einherjar]

Among other things, I now see most Robotech die-hards as very old, conservative, and misinformed. Just like in real life, you really can't argue with them and have a fruitful conversation.

I mean come on the thing is a convention exclusive that isn't even indicative of the product itself. Also the QC was pretty bad.

Might as well try to make money out of it through ebay. People are willing to fork over more than you bought for it.

[jenius]

I mean come on the thing is a convention exclusive that isn't even indicative of the product itself.

What does that sentence mean? Are you saying that convention exclusives should never be non-canon? I'm not sure I follow what you were getting at.

Edited August 21, 2009 by jenius

[Einherjar]

What does that sentence mean? Are you saying that convention exclusives should never be non-canon? I'm not sure I follow what you were getting at.

I think he's referring to the Robotech label being put on a toy that isn't necessarily from Robotech, which Toynami has the right to do. What we talked about a while back. The color has nothing to do with it, it's just misleading.

[Seto Kaiba]

This is who we have been arguing about all this time.

http://twitpic.com/ehz47

And now those arguments don't seem as important anymore.

If you're going to bash MEMO, at least bash him for something he can control... like his constant, obnoxious, parrot-like repetition and provably-wrong interpretation of the Harmony Gold company line. His physical appearance has nothing at all to do with what he posts.

I'll hand it to Tommy, he's funny ("Robot Jox has NOTHING on us" is a pretty good line).

And highly illustrative of the Harmony Gold mindset... "so long as we're not the crappiest thing out there, we're doing great!" They have the same mindset as the guys who sell imitation brand speakers out of the back of a van.

If only that were the case. Then we would have had Macross over here years ago.

Hey Big West... you readin' this? Good ideas here...

Edited August 21, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[justvinnie]

If you're going to bash MEMO, at least bash him for something he can control... like his constant, obnoxious, parrot-like repetition and provably-wrong interpretation of the Harmony Gold company line. His physical appearance has nothing at all to do with what he posts.

I agree. I am only prejudiced against stupid people. The picture was uncalled for.

vinnie

[Einherjar]

If you're going to bash MEMO, at least bash him for something he can control... like his constant, obnoxious, parrot-like repetition and provably-wrong interpretation of the Harmony Gold company line. His physical appearance has nothing at all to do with what he posts.

I wasn't trying to be insulting or anything, sorry if I did, I just got some personal perspective on what we were actually arguing about this whole time from that picture. Something clicked, don't know what, but it has made this whole obsession about Robotech, HG, and legalities not that important anymore.

I'm sorry if I did something uncalled for.

[eugimon]

harmony gold staff at Comic Con 2009 :

Notice how hg staff are spreading lies like water in a river.

haha, they disabled the comments... lol

[EXO]

If you're going to bash MEMO, at least bash him for something he can control... like his constant, obnoxious, parrot-like repetition and provably-wrong interpretation of the Harmony Gold company line. His physical appearance has nothing at all to do with what he posts.

I agree. I am only prejudiced against stupid people. The picture was uncalled for.

vinnie

I agree and thought the same thing when I saw the pic in that post and the post before.

[EXO]

I'm pretty sure the balance issues he had in Super/Strike battroid mode were because the backpack needed to be pushed up to lock it in place. If you don't lock it in place it falls backward which doesn't really affect a non super valk (it just looks like the backpack dangles loose a bit) but causes serious balance issues with the extra parts.

I'm pretty sure its just a POS toy with no redeeming qualities other than being cheap.

If you watch the video, the reviewer actually does go thru the trouble of locking the backpack and clearly explains how to do it. But the figure topples over backwards because the weight was too much for the knees. Is it fair for the reviewer to toss the parts around like they were junk? YES! It shows how frustrating the damn thing is. That's what I call an honest review. Usually I take great care of my toys no matter how cheap they are if I like them but if it's a piece of crap, it gets treated like a POS!

I bought a bunch of these from a member here for cheap... I mean rockbottom prices and I thought I was getting a good deal. After fiddling around with it and observing all the way out scale inconsistencies of the parts I sold it to someone else for even less. I understand having some parts a little bit bigger to compensate for anime magic, but the smallness of the legs and the oversized shoulders were just too much of an eyesore. And despite what you might hear or read... this things are not cheap, not for what you are really paying for.

[Seto Kaiba]

Among other things, I now see most Robotech die-hards as very old, conservative, and misinformed. Just like in real life, you really can't argue with them and have a fruitful conversation.

Too true... most of the die-hards I've met have been in their thirties, and the mere suggestion that Robotech might not be perfect sends them into the sort of nerd rage normally only seen when Trekkies debate whether Kirk or Picard was the better captain, and most of them are firmly convinced that Harmony Gold is doing an awesome job with Robotech.

haha, they disabled the comments... lol

MEMO's the one who posted the video... as part of his desperate, last-ditch attempt to prove me wrong on Robotech.com. It goes without saying that he failed spectacularly... made even more amusing by the fact that the crucial section of the video he claimed proved Harmony Gold had all the rights to Macross proved the opposite, and most of the rest was just a hilarious attempt to make Robotech appear more popular than it actually is.

He probably disabled the comments to stop Macross fans from laughing themselves silly and telling him he's a twit.

[Einherjar]

Too true... most of the die-hards I've met have been in their thirties, and the mere suggestion that Robotech might not be perfect sends them into the sort of nerd rage normally only seen when Trekkies debate whether Kirk or Picard was the better captain, and most of them are firmly convinced that Harmony Gold is doing an awesome job with Robotech.

Yeah, a lot of this online stuff is new to me, and it's very surprising. The things I'm learning everyday isn't improving my view of Robotech.

There has to be someone else out there who did a better video job for the whole Robotech panel. HG should have done it to promote themselves online like on youtube.

Edited August 22, 2009 by Einherjar

[VF5SS]

I'm pretty sure its just a POS toy with no redeeming qualities other than being cheap.

If you watch the video, the reviewer actually does go thru the trouble of locking the backpack and clearly explains how to do it. But the figure topples over backwards because the weight was too much for the knees. Is it fair for the reviewer to toss the parts around like they were junk? YES!

You do know the review is me, right? I post my reviews under the same name at CDX. And I tend to toss pieces around if they're annoying.

[VF5SS]

What does that sentence mean? Are you saying that convention exclusives should never be non-canon? I'm not sure I follow what you were getting at.

If its a cheap toy with a stupid black repaint then yes they shouldn't even try.

[Wanzerfan]

Isn't that how fanatical Robotech die-hards like Pizza and MEMO see us?

Based on the accusations the fanatics have leveled at me just in this past month or two, they seem to regard me either as an agent of some sort of sinister, subversive, Illuminati-like group headed up by Big West with the sole aim of bringing Robotech down to make way for Macross, or as the sort of cardboard cutout villain you might find in a black-and-white sci-fi serial from the 50's... bent on destroying Robotech because I'm pointlessly evil.

(While I admit I do the maniacal laughter thing from time to time as a joke, I don't think the local zoning would permit me to build a doom fortress, and I certainly can't afford the upkeep on an army of witless minions.)

Still... it's a good example of how some Robotech fans are more comfortable denying the truth because it doesn't fit into their strange worldview where Robotech is wildly popular and of the highest quality.

Glad you enjoyed it.

Wy don't you move here to Texas, there are no zoning laws for you to worry about!

[jenius]

I'm pretty sure its just a POS toy with no redeeming qualities other than being cheap.

If you watch the video, the reviewer actually does go thru the trouble of locking the backpack and clearly explains how to do it. But the figure topples over backwards because the weight was too much for the knees.

I admit, I was cooking dinner while watching the review so it's completely possible I missed a bit. From experience I know how that back pack can really screw things up with the super parts if not locked so I figured that must have been the problem. Apparently I just got a bit lucky and got one that's stiffer.

[MacrossCN]

I have a quesiton~~~

I know Robotech/HG can use design of The Super Dimension Fortress Macross, but only it.

BIG WEST and Studio Nue has the copyright of Mecha and Chara design by Tokyo court NO.1844.

http://www.courts.go.jp/search/jhsp0030?ac...mp;hanreiKbn=06

why R's new toy can use DYRL's superpack design???

I think Tatsunoko Pro(竜の子プロダクション) only sell The Super Dimension Fortress Macross to HG.

so HG has not rights to use DYRL's superpack design.

R's new toy, VF-1S

http://robotech.com/news/viewarticle.php?id=393

small pics

big pics

http://anymoon.com/blog/wp-content/uploads...Stealth%202.jpg

Toynami's info

http://www.toynami.com/popup_cc09_01.html

Edited August 22, 2009 by kresphy

[Radd]

They can't unless they licensed those rights separately, or if Tatsunoko also had international merchandising rights to DYRL. I'd say the latter is more likely, but I'm just guessing of course.

[Radd]

I do remember that HG was using DYRL designs ages ago. A VF-1S Strike appears on the CD art of the Robotech Perfect Soundtrack. I also recall hearing that HG had told Antarctic Press to stop using DYRL designs in their Robotech comics due to legal concerns. So, maybe it is that they licensed those merchandising rights later on?

[MacrossCN]

So, maybe it is that they licensed those merchandising rights later on?

new rights, new license??????????????????????

If it is truth

the mean is R/HG can use chara design of The Super Dimension Fortress Macross to make a new series?????

DAMMIT~~~

Edited August 22, 2009 by kresphy

[EXO]

new rights, new license??????????????????????

If it is truth

the mean is R/HG can use chara design of The Super Dimension Fortress Macross's to make a new series?????

DAMMIT~~~

I don't think so... as far as merchandising rights they can make products such as Popbox's DYRL figures and the 1/100 Macross Valk line but they can't even use the designs in SDF:M to put in Shadow Chronicles. IMO HG and Toynami are just exercising their rights as licensed by Tatsanuko because as licensing goes... it's use it or lose it.

[EXO]

You do know the review is me, right? I post my reviews under the same name at CDX. And I tend to toss pieces around if they're annoying.

No Idea... I don't really go to CollectionDX but I watch their reviews once and a while on youtube. The only person I know from there is Leonard who attended MWCon... nice guy...

[Keith]

I don't think so... as far as merchandising rights they can make products such as Popbox's DYRL figures and the 1/100 Macross Valk line but they can't even use the designs in SDF:M to put in Shadow Chronicles. IMO HG and Toynami are just exercising their rights as licensed by Tatsanuko because as licensing goes... it's use it or lose it.

Tatsunoko also helped fund DYRL, and apparently wound up with merch rights for that too. Difference being, they don't have distribution rights for the animation, so no HG release of it. The matter of who has rights to distribute DYRL is a convoluted one. A company called Kiseki/Best films used to distribute it in the U.S. & Europe, likely asia too since they're the ones that contracted the HK dub (aka clash of the bioroids).

As to the matter of where they got the license & masters is anyones guess, the company went under almost a decade ago, leaving no one to ask.

[TheLoneWolf]

harmony gold staff at Comic Con 2009 :

Thanks for posting that link.

Is it just my computer, or does that video unexplainably begin to stutter, stop, and speed during Tommy Yune's explaination of Harmony Gold's rights to Macross? Oddly enough, that doesn't happen during any other part of the video, just Tommy's explanation. An odd coincidence, to say the least.

While the poor recording makes it difficult to hear all of the details that Tommy is saying, I think this is the one line that MEMO wanted us to hear:

"We had pretty much acquired all of the international rights outside of Japan, lock, stock and barrel."

As an officer of Harmony Gold, I accept Tommy Yune's word at face value. Though, the first part of that statement is ambiguous. "We had pretty much acquired all of the international rights" does not equal "We had acquired all of the international rights." The "pretty much" phraseology implies that there are some international rights that Harmony Gold does not have. If Tommy had simply said "We had acquired all of the international rights", then MEMO's opinion would be correct.

As it is, everything that Tommy is saying is technically accurate. MEMO is misinterpreting Tommy's words into something that supports his personal beliefs.

[Gubaba]

Thanks for posting that link.

Is it just my computer, or does that video unexplainably begin to stutter, stop, and speed during Tommy Yune's explaination of Harmony Gold's rights to Macross? Oddly enough, that doesn't happen during any other part of the video, just Tommy's explanation. An odd coincidence, to say the least.

Coincidence...or CURSE???

As an officer of Harmony Gold, I accept Tommy Yune's word at face value. Though, the first part of that statement is ambiguous. "We had pretty much acquired all of the international rights" does not equal "We had acquired all of the international rights." The "pretty much" phraseology implies that there are some international rights that Harmony Gold does not have. If Tommy had simply said "We had acquired all of the international rights", then MEMO's opinion would be correct.

As it is, everything that Tommy is saying is technically accurate. MEMO is misinterpreting Tommy's words into something that supports his personal beliefs.

I think you may be reading too much into what is probably just Tommy's style of speaking. "Pretty much" is often one of those space-filler terms, like "well" or "y'know" or "basically." I don't think it was part of the official statement.

The thing that I'm wondering about...did the Japanese court decide that Tatsunoko NO LONGER had the IP rights, or did they decide that they NEVER had the IP rights? If the latter, than everyone here arguing against HG's position is correct. If the former...then HG may indeed have all the rights wrapped up.

[VFTF1]

Just imagine how much worse it could have been.

Gundam Wing could have been brought over as Robotech: Revenge of the Sentinels.

Pete

[Gubaba]

Just imagine how much worse it could have been.

Gundam Wing could have been brought over as Robotech: Revenge of the Sentinels.

Pete

Someone already kinda tried to do that...

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Spa/5972/mecha.html

[azrael]

The thing that I'm wondering about...did the Japanese court decide that Tatsunoko NO LONGER had the IP rights, or did they decide that they NEVER had the IP rights? If the latter, than everyone here arguing against HG's position is correct. If the former...then HG may indeed have all the rights wrapped up.

I believe it's the latter.

We brought a lawsuit against Tatsunoko Production to confirm our copyright ownership of TV anime "The Super Dimension Fortress-1 Macross" which has been broadcast in Japan since 1982.

If I'm reading the statement correctly, it was Big West that challenged Tatsunoko's claim that Tatsunoko had IP rights to the designs and story.

I don't think so... as far as merchandising rights they can make products such as Popbox's DYRL figures and the 1/100 Macross Valk line but they can't even use the designs in SDF:M to put in Shadow Chronicles. IMO HG and Toynami are just exercising their rights as licensed by Tatsanuko because as licensing goes... it's use it or lose it.

EXO is correct kresphy. They can make toys from it but their licensing rights, most likely, does not allow them to make new animation with those designs.

[BeyondTheGrave]

Someone already kinda tried to do that...

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Spa/5972/mecha.html

thats not too bad.

Its bad but noat as bad as robotechfanplus' rehash on openings to shows and re-branding them as robotech. Without changing a single thing.

[Freiflug88]

Thanks for posting that link.

Is it just my computer, or does that video unexplainably begin to stutter, stop, and speed during Tommy Yune's explaination of Harmony Gold's rights to Macross? Oddly enough, that doesn't happen during any other part of the video, just Tommy's explanation. An odd coincidence, to say the least.

Its not just you. MEMO posted the video and apparently he tried to edit out the long pauses where Tommy would just mutter "uhh" during his explanation. Just look at how bored Carl Maceke is as he picks his ear as Tommy rambled on and on.

[Gubaba]

thats not too bad.

Its bad but noat as bad as robotechfanplus' rehash on openings to shows and re-branding them as robotech. Without changing a single thing.

I still think that Robotechfanplus was a deliberate, sarcastic troll. The RPG guy was being serious...

[Seto Kaiba]

I have a quesiton~~~

I know Robotech/HG can use design of The Super Dimension Fortress Macross, but only it.

BIG WEST and Studio Nue has the copyright of Mecha and Chara design by Tokyo court NO.1844.

http://www.courts.go.jp/search/jhsp0030?ac...mp;hanreiKbn=06

Slight misunderstanding on your part... they can use the designs from that series for merchandise only... they can't use those designs in new animated or live-action motion pictures.

why R's new toy can use DYRL's superpack design???

I think Tatsunoko Pro(竜の子プロダクション) only sell The Super Dimension Fortress Macross to HG.

so HG has not rights to use DYRL's superpack design.

Because, at some point (somewhere ~2004 by the look of it) Harmony Gold acquired the merchandising rights to DYRL... again, JUST the merchandising rights. They can't release DYRL or use DYRL designs in animated or live-action motion pictures, but they can make and/or distribute merchandise for it. That's how we got that horrible, cheaply-made atrocity they're calling the Stealth Valkyrie.

new rights, new license??????????????????????

If it is truth

the mean is R/HG can use chara design of The Super Dimension Fortress Macross to make a new series?????

DAMMIT~~~

No, they can't use those designs to make a new series... they only have the film distribution and merchandising rights to SDF Macross and only the merchandising rights to DYRL.

Is it just my computer, or does that video unexplainably begin to stutter, stop, and speed during Tommy Yune's explaination of Harmony Gold's rights to Macross? Oddly enough, that doesn't happen during any other part of the video, just Tommy's explanation. An odd coincidence, to say the least.

While the poor recording makes it difficult to hear all of the details that Tommy is saying, I think this is the one line that MEMO wanted us to hear:

It's not just you... MEMO claims that he wore the videotape out rewinding and replaying that section for whatever purpose. It seems highly suspicious, since that's the only part of the tape affected, and it's affected in highly convenient spots.

As an officer of Harmony Gold, I accept Tommy Yune's word at face value. Though, the first part of that statement is ambiguous. "We had pretty much acquired all of the international rights" does not equal "We had acquired all of the international rights." The "pretty much" phraseology implies that there are some international rights that Harmony Gold does not have. If Tommy had simply said "We had acquired all of the international rights", then MEMO's opinion would be correct.

As it is, everything that Tommy is saying is technically accurate. MEMO is misinterpreting Tommy's words into something that supports his personal beliefs.

Not only is the first part of the statement ambiguous, but there's another reason it doesn't support MEMO's claims...

Since the term "international rights" is at best a vague one, I called up a broadcast arts professor of my acquaintance and asked him what the typical definition of "international rights" was... surprise surprise... it means exactly what I'd thought it meant... international film distribution and merchandising rights... something we know Harmony Gold does have.

Par for the course... Tommy makes a generally truthful but deliberately ambiguous statement, MEMO interprets statement to mean something that supports his personal opinion, MEMO argues his point, citing vague remark as irrefutable evidence and trying to push aside such mundane concerns as court documents and copyright law.

I believe it's the latter.

If I'm reading the statement correctly, it was Big West that challenged Tatsunoko's claim that Tatsunoko had IP rights to the designs and story.

Yeah, that's how I read it as well.

Possibly the most telling indicator that we are in fact correct is the recent behavior of Harmony Gold. In 2002-2004, they churned out a few Macross-derived comic books, some DYRL toys, and a game, but when the time came to make the new movie, they killed every recognizable Macross character and redesigned the only plot-critical one, then went out of their way to avoid any and all references to Macross in the dialogue... to such a degree that it became painfully obvious. Even in Prelude, which was a pretty blatant recycling of Robotech II: the Sentinels Book IV, they avoided showing the Battle of Tiresia, where a horde of those goofy "Invid Inorganics" square off against squadrons of Spartas hovertanks and VF-1 Valkyries in the middle of the city... they avoided showing Minmei's face, made Rick unrecognizable from the start, and most of the other supposedly familiar characters were already mostly unrecognizable.

But perhaps the most blatant dodge of a Macross reference came in the movie itself, when whiny main character Marcus Rush is bitching about how he wants to kill all the aliens, and Maia Sterling (supposedly the second or third child of Max and "Miriya") pops up and says "If it weren't for an alien, you'd be dead right now" and then points out that she is "half-alien". Note, not "half-Zentradi"... "half-alien". They went out of their way with potentially confusing dialogue to avoid even using the word "Zentradi". As pointed out by other users on RT.com, there were also many other occasions where they passed up some obvious chances for some fanservice references to the "Macross Saga", which would almost certainly have gone over well with the fans.

What's more, they've mysteriously avoided quashing that legal debate thread on Robotech.com's message boards... if I and the other users arguing that Harmony Gold can't use the intellectual property of Macross were wrong, you can bet Kevin McKeever would've showed up almost right away, told us to shut up, that we were dead wrong, and locked the thread, as is his usual pattern when someone challenges the company line... and then crowed about it later in the officer's forum. Instead... the thread has run for nearly 300 posts of multiple users arguing that MEMO is full of crap, and that HG can't use the designs of Macross in the live-action movie or any other sequel, without so much as a single post from McKeever.

Yes gentlemen, I think we're spot-on with our interpretation of the rulings and the law..

Edited August 22, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[Bri]

The thing that I'm wondering about...did the Japanese court decide that Tatsunoko NO LONGER had the IP rights, or did they decide that they NEVER had the IP rights? If the latter, than everyone here arguing against HG's position is correct. If the former...then HG may indeed have all the rights wrapped up.

The way I understand it is that both BW and Tatsunoko both own part of what we would call the copyright to SDFM. Tats has the economic rights associated with control over the sale of the footage worldwide. BW owns a number of creative designs (as listed on their site) as the staff that created those characters was under employment of BW and Nue or subcontracted by them. Also BW/Nue has authorship rights (a rather vague concept for me but seems to encompass the story and the making of derivatives). Tats will never be able to use those without BW permission. The merchandise license is essentially a permission from BW to Tats that allows the use of those designs, but only for merchandise.

What complicates things is the original contract between the diverse parties of the production comittee that produced Macross. Amongst other things the merchandising rights were aranged in that.

Edited August 22, 2009 by Bri

[taksraven]

Someone already kinda tried to do that...

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Spa/5972/mecha.html

Ahhh yes, the great and glorious 4th Robotech War. What a moronic achievement.

Taksraven