HG and Robotech Debates

[taksraven]

Are you serious? The American comic book industry is in a death spiral. The last two years have been especially bad.

Just out of interest, how bad is the comic book industry "death spiral"? I have no info on this topic and would like some. And what are they blaming for the decline, the internet? (it seems to get the blame for everything else)

Taksraven

[Keith]

Just out of interest, how bad is the comic book industry "death spiral"? I have no info on this topic and would like some. And what are they blaming for the decline, the internet? (it seems to get the blame for everything else)

Taksraven

Shitty writing, masculine female characters, the refusal to let any character die & stay dead, the refusal to tell a story straight off and end it without trying to milk the same exact character for 80 years, and a 100% absolute disregard for anything remotely resembling a static continuity.

[Einherjar]

Shitty writing, masculine female characters, the refusal to let any character die & stay dead, the refusal to tell a story straight off and end it without trying to milk the same exact character for 80 years, and a 100% absolute disregard for anything remotely resembling a static continuity.

Basically Joe Quesada happened to the industry. But from your description of it these days, Robotech should fit right back into it reasonably well.

EDIT - He ruined Spider-Man in recent times.

Edited August 18, 2009 by Einherjar

[taksraven]

the refusal to let any character die & stay dead,

Just out of interest, (and I know that things are really starting to drift OT here but sorry), but when has a comic character been allowed to die and stay dead. Can't remember too many instances of it. (Captain Marvel or Mar-Vell maybe)

Taksraven

[Duke Togo]

The comic book industry died in the early 90's.

[chrisk]

The comic book industry died in the early 90's.

Marvel recently came out saying the demand for "mainstream" superhero comics is inelastic. They've been pushing their prices skyward and haven't noticed that big of a dip in sales (avg. 100k a month for the best selling titles) Of course, they justify the hike with "extra content" like sketches, scripts and the like. I don't buy any meself... just watching the movies and anime is enough for me.

If anything, it's indie comics that have suffered a great deal thanks to Diamond Publishing. *sigh*

Instead of printing as many copies as you need to meet the demand, you do an inexpensive and extremely limited print run insufficient to meet demand for the book, and that forced scarcity not only lets you run the price up for the initial sale

Prelude's going to be collected in a trade with a limited print run, and really make a lot of money in the process. Demand for Robotech merchandise, like Marvel, is inelastic. I believe that's why Kevin McKeever's so proud about why Robotech is in such a "great place". They might as well collect the craptacular Love & War and Invasion comics and turn a profit there too.

[Einherjar]

Just out of interest, (and I know that things are really starting to drift OT here but sorry), but when has a comic character been allowed to die and stay dead. Can't remember too many instances of it. (Captain Marvel or Mar-Vell maybe)

Taksraven

Unless a story takes place in an alternate universe, I think characters involved in the origin of a comic book character stay dead most of the time. The only ones I can think of are Bruce Wayne's parents and Spider-Man's Uncle Ben Parker.

The many deaths in Prelude could count as comic book deaths if there wasn't a legal reason why they had to go. There's that little hope that the same rules apply since it's not over yet and because Robotech has been in comic book form for many years. But wouldn't that cheapen the experience since so many people throughout the series already died for no reason?

[Moly_Sigang]

Shitty writing, masculine female characters, the refusal to let any character die & stay dead, the refusal to tell a story straight off and end it without trying to milk the same exact character for 80 years, and a 100% absolute disregard for anything remotely resembling a static continuity.

In a way, Robotech share some of these problems. Shitty writing (Carl Macek & Tommy Yune), the refusal to tell a story straight off and end it without trying to milk the same exact character (poor Rick Hunter, HG will continue to whore him and the rest of the remaining Macross Saga characters, in shitty sequels), and absolute disregard for anything remotely resembling a static continuity.

[eugimon]

Shitty writing, masculine female characters, the refusal to let any character die & stay dead, the refusal to tell a story straight off and end it without trying to milk the same exact character for 80 years, and a 100% absolute disregard for anything remotely resembling a static continuity.

That's not what's to blame. That's been going on since the birth of the serial superhero comic.

Comics used to cost 25 cents, printed on cheap nasty paper, printed in 4 colors with mediocre but serviceable art. They were cheap and disposable and kids could get them at 7-11 with the left over money from their slurpee. Then Jim Lee and other superstar artists happened. Paper stock went from cheap pulp to thick, acid free stock. Printing went digital, colorists went crazy, only books with either superstar artists or big name heroes sold, prices sky rocketed to 2, 3, 4, 5 dollars a book. Kids couldn't afford to buy comics so they thumbed through them at the 7-11, so 7-11 stopped carrying them. Comics slowly became relegated to specialty stores that were and remain intimidating to casual fans. The whole culture closed in on itself and became unfriendly to new readers.

So simply, they priced themselves into oblivion.

[TheLoneWolf]

You guys have this thread confused with The Comic Book Discussion Thread.

Take it over there.

[Einherjar]

In a way, Robotech share some of these problems. Shitty writing (Carl Macek & Tommy Yune), the refusal to tell a story straight off and end it without trying to milk the same exact character (poor Rick Hunter, HG will continue to whore him and the rest of the remaining Macross Saga characters, in shitty sequels), and absolute disregard for anything remotely resembling a static continuity.

Is Jack McKinney included in that? They were good writers, but I feel sorry for them having to translate Carl Macek's ideas into something that works on a tight schedule.

[valkyriepilot]

Is Jack McKinney included in that? They were good writers, but I feel sorry for them having to translate Carl Macek's ideas into something that works on a tight schedule.

well, I've mentioned it before in this thread already, the Jack McKinney duo turned the RT script into something... palateable, for me at least.

Edited August 18, 2009 by valkyriepilot

[Wanzerfan]

Unless a story takes place in an alternate universe, I think characters involved in the origin of a comic book character stay dead most of the time. The only ones I can think of are Bruce Wayne's parents and Spider-Man's Uncle Ben Parker.

The many deaths in Prelude could count as comic book deaths if there wasn't a legal reason why they had to go. There's that little hope that the same rules apply since it's not over yet and because Robotech has been in comic book form for many years. But wouldn't that cheapen the experience since so many people throughout the series already died for no reason?

You can add the Avengers' Swordsman to the list.

[Freiflug88]

It's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation for Warner Bros and Harmony Gold. If they make the live-action movie Macross-y, they run the risk of being sued into next week by Big West, and if they don't, the fans will crucify them with big, blunt, rusty nails shaped like the SDF-1.

What do you define as Macross-y? Obviously WB and HG would never get away with copying and pasting mecha designs, but I would have to argue they got away with making Mosepeda stuff look more Macross-y and using Macross Sound Effects in Shadow Chronicles to appeal to Robotech fans. In the end though its the mainstream appeal not the fan appeal that is going to make or break the Robotech LAM, and the mainstream audience honestly won't give a dam about how unloyal the LAM is to the original Macross Saga designs as long the movie just looks cool.

[Einherjar]

Just like how Gundam was a trend setter for real robots, Macross was a trend setter for transforming real robots among other things. WB might be able to get away with it by saying the LAMR is continuing this trend with mainstream audiences having relatively little experience on. Or like other productions based on foreign franchises, like Godzilla, Speed Racer, Dragonball Evolution, etc., butchered to fit the American palate.

I thought the Macross Sound Effects in Shadow Chronicles were actually just generic effects used by most series in the 80's.

In the end though its the mainstream appeal not the fan appeal that is going to make or break the Robotech LAM, and the mainstream audience honestly won't give a dam about how unloyal the LAM is to the original Macross Saga designs as long the movie just looks cool.

I've been getting the impression that fans will watch and like any Robotech production as well as corresponding products regardless of quality, like with Shadow Chronicles and the Shadow Fighter recall. In fact, I think they'll end up willing to spend too much money showing their love for it, since they've been deprived of material for a while now, potentially softening any blow the mainstream audience's influence could have if the LAMR is a total disaster.

[Keith]

Just like how Gundam was a trend setter for real robots, Macross was a trend setter for transforming real robots among other things. WB might be able to get away with it by saying the LAMR is continuing this trend with mainstream audiences having relatively little experience on. Or like other productions based on foreign franchises, like Godzilla, Speed Racer, Dragonball Evolution, etc., butchered to fit the American palate.

I thought the Macross Sound Effects in Shadow Chronicles were actually just generic effects used by most series in the 80's.

I've been getting the impression that fans will watch and like any Robotech production as well as corresponding products regardless of quality, like with Shadow Chronicles and the Shadow Fighter recall. In fact, I think they'll end up willing to spend too much money showing their love for it, since they've been deprived of material for a while now, potentially softening any blow the mainstream audience's influence could have if the LAMR is a total disaster.

I don't know, there was a prettty unanimus fan "groan" when the first sneak peaks of Robotech 3000 were shown. Which reminds me, I hope someday, Kawamori will tell us just WTF was going on in the Macross 3D-VFX trailer, even as a teaser that was pretty freakin' vague.

Edited August 19, 2009 by Keith

[Einherjar]

I don't know, there was a prettty unanimus fan "groan" when the first sneak peaks of Robotech 3000 were shown.

Back then, were fans as desperate as they are now for new Robotech labeled anything?

Maybe fans back then had higher standards inflated by the secondary material. I dare say the current fandom has been groomed for mediocrity.

Edited August 19, 2009 by Einherjar

[Seto Kaiba]

What do you define as Macross-y? Obviously WB and HG would never get away with copying and pasting mecha designs, but I would have to argue they got away with making Mosepeda stuff look more Macross-y and using Macross Sound Effects in Shadow Chronicles to appeal to Robotech fans.

I'm talking about something which accurately reproduces the design aesthetics and viewing experience of Macross, even if it doesn't reproduce the designs entirely faithfully. Something that is, in all likelihood, well beyond the range of legal options Harmony Gold and Warner Bros can take, and certainly beyond the creative capabilities of Tommy Yune. The few Macross-like sound effects which made it into Shadow Chronicles were generic beam weapon sound effects ("pew" lasers) which which can be found in most any sci-fi or action show from that period.

In the end though its the mainstream appeal not the fan appeal that is going to make or break the Robotech LAM, and the mainstream audience honestly won't give a dam about how unloyal the LAM is to the original Macross Saga designs as long the movie just looks cool.

Frankly, I can't see a scenario wherein the general public has anything other than apathy towards yet another bland, generic robot movie. Robotech will be just another squirt in the crowd, just like it always has been. It has zero name recognition outside of its rapidly shrinking fanbase, and that doesn't bode well for the live-action movie's prospects.

I've been getting the impression that fans will watch and like any Robotech production as well as corresponding products regardless of quality, like with Shadow Chronicles and the Shadow Fighter recall. In fact, I think they'll end up willing to spend too much money showing their love for it, since they've been deprived of material for a while now, potentially softening any blow the mainstream audience's influence could have if the LAMR is a total disaster.

[...]

Back then, were fans as desperate as they are now for new Robotech labeled anything?

Maybe fans back then had higher standards inflated by the secondary material. I dare say the current fandom has been groomed for mediocrity.

It was not always thus.

Even in the 90's, when the only thing keeping Robotech alive was a steady dribble of piss poor comic books and irreverent novelizations, the fans had standards. Quite a few series met their premature ends because the fans found the low quality of their work insulting, and would not buy it. Because there was the promise of something new in the immediate future right up until Robotech 3000 went over like a lead balloon, the fans never got quite as desperate as they are today.

The failure of Robotech 3000 was the final straw for a lot of fans... a production that made it abundantly clear exactly how poor Harmony Gold's understanding of its target audience really was. When Robotech.com opened in 2001, the fans who'd remained with the franchise were overjoyed, predicting a Robotech renaissance, and for a while there it looked like they might actually get their wish. Then, of course, the supposed revival turned out to be nothing more than a couple fairly weak limited series comics and a mediocre game. The promise of Shadow Chronicles came along just as the fans were starting to get desperate for new ANYTHING, and that desperation only got worse in the three years between the initial announcement and the actual release. By that time, the few fans who were left were just so desperate for new Robotech ANYTHING that they threw out all considerations of quality. Shadow Chronicles whetted their appetites, and thanks to some misleading remarks from Tommy Yune, got them thinking that the next feature was looming large on the horizon already. Of course, when that turned out not to be true, they lapsed right back into their desperation... obsessing over each and every little re-release, toy release, and vague announcement about future products.

[Freiflug88]

I'm talking about something which accurately reproduces the design aesthetics and viewing experience of Macross, even if it doesn't reproduce the designs entirely faithfully. Something that is, in all likelihood, well beyond the range of legal options Harmony Gold and Warner Bros can take, and certainly beyond the creative capabilities of Tommy Yune. The few Macross-like sound effects which made it into Shadow Chronicles were generic beam weapon sound effects ("pew" lasers) which which can be found in most any sci-fi or action show from that period.

Frankly, I can't see a scenario wherein the general public has anything other than apathy towards yet another bland, generic robot movie. Robotech will be just another squirt in the crowd, just like it always has been. It has zero name recognition outside of its rapidly shrinking fanbase, and that doesn't bode well for the live-action movie's prospects.

I'll give you design aesthetics, but "Viewing experience" sounds too subjective to really be taken seriously in a legal matter over copyright infringement.

The same can be said about many blockbuster flicks that turned out to be hits. 300 was just a one dimensional action movie packed with virtually zero name recognition outside of Frank Milliar comic fans and people who actually remembered their Greek history from Middle school. The general public will always find ways to criticize mindless blockbuster movies and then watch them anyway. Robotech doesn't need a huge fanbase, Macross aesthetics, or even decent writing just action packed trailers with things like transforming fighter jet in space, an Itano circus or two in slow-mo, an attractive cast, and a generic battlestar Galactica knock-off firing its huge cannon is enough to bring home the bacon with.

[Einherjar]

The failure of Robotech 3000 was the final straw for a lot of fans... a production that made it abundantly clear exactly how poor Harmony Gold's understanding of its target audience really was. When Robotech.com opened in 2001, the fans who'd remained with the franchise were overjoyed, predicting a Robotech renaissance, and for a while there it looked like they might actually get their wish. Then, of course, the supposed revival turned out to be nothing more than a couple fairly weak limited series comics and a mediocre game. The promise of Shadow Chronicles came along just as the fans were starting to get desperate for new ANYTHING, and that desperation only got worse in the three years between the initial announcement and the actual release. By that time, the few fans who were left were just so desperate for new Robotech ANYTHING that they threw out all considerations of quality. Shadow Chronicles whetted their appetites, and thanks to some misleading remarks from Tommy Yune, got them thinking that the next feature was looming large on the horizon already. Of course, when that turned out not to be true, they lapsed right back into their desperation... obsessing over each and every little re-release, toy release, and vague announcement about future products.

I'm guessing it was after 2001 that it became cool for fans to cannibalize Macross into Robotech as they were forced to wait for stuff repeatedly. I also guess the double standard where it was cool to put down "Macross purists" and some other stupid nonsense took off soon after. If I'm a purist what the hell are these people, cannibals?

[Ginrai]

Even in the 90's, when the only thing keeping Robotech alive was a steady dribble of piss poor comic books and irreverent novelizations

Irreverent? You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[Penguin]

I'm guessing it was after 2001 that it became cool for fans to cannibalize Macross into Robotech as they were forced to wait for stuff repeatedly. I also guess the double standard where it was cool to put down "Macross purists" and some other stupid nonsense took off soon after. If I'm a purist what the hell are these people, cannibals?

Didn't take until 2001 for that. Roleplaying gamers were importing Macross stuff into Robotech fast as they could, starting with the Palladium Macross II game in the early 90s. I started seeing RPG stats and fanfic pulling Macross Plus into Robotech practically days after Manga released the first VHS tapes.

Cannibals are defined by consuming their own kind, so Robotech fans feeding off Macross wouldn't apply. Living off of the vitality of others would more aptly describe a fungus or parasite.

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm guessing it was after 2001 that it became cool for fans to cannibalize Macross into Robotech as they were forced to wait for stuff repeatedly. I also guess the double standard where it was cool to put down "Macross purists" and some other stupid nonsense took off soon after. If I'm a purist what the hell are these people, cannibals?

No, they started well before that... it just became more widespread as time went on.

The earliest example of that I can think of was the Unofficial Robotech Reference Guide, which used a lot of Macross OSM in its creation, and included several mecha which don't exist in Robotech, like the production model VF-4. It became more widespread once the fans began making internet supplements for the Palladium Robotech RPG in the late 90's.

Irreverent? You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

You'd do well to check a dictionary then... because I'm using it correctly.

ir·rev·er·ent (ĭ-rěv'ər-ənt)

adj.

1. Lacking or exhibiting a lack of reverence; disrespectful.

The Robotech novels written by Luceno and Daley under the pseudonym "Jack McKinney" treat the entire established setting and continuity of Robotech as a series of polite suggestions which can be ignored at will, rather than the foundations of the universe, which is why they contained garbage like the "shapings of protoculture", the so-called "thinking cap", and all that nonsense in End of the Circle. An irreverent adaptation is one that does not respect the original source material, and the McKinney novels are a textbook example of such an adaptation.

Cannibals are defined by consuming their own kind, so Robotech fans feeding off Macross wouldn't apply. Living off of the vitality of others would more aptly describe a fungus or parasite.

Yeah, parasitism is probably a better word for that period where Robotech fans were adapting anything they could get their hands on for the Robotech RPG.

[jenius]

I'm not saying I support it but another line of thought is that the McKinney books were more true to the story of Robotech and that the animation should not be taken as Gospel as Macek had to use other people's animation to make his story whereas the book writers did not. Had Macek not been encumbered by pictures showing other events or an inability to add scenes what he might have created could have been more of what was done in the books. Again, I'm not saying that's my take on it but it's an opinion I've read.

[Ginrai]

Someone hasn't seen The Princess Bride.

[Radd]

Someone hasn't seen The Princess Bride.

Better drop it or he'll have your hide.

[Einherjar]

Oh gosh, so the rush to shamelessly stay relevant with the times has always been there.

I thought of cannibals because I was thinking both Macross and Robotech as anime at the time, so Robotech was consuming its own kind in that way. Yes, very divisive thinking there, I know. But I agree, parasites is a better description these days.

I'm not saying I support it but another line of thought is that the McKinney books were more true to the story of Robotech and that the animation should not be taken as Gospel as Macek had to use other people's animation to make his story whereas the book writers did not. Had Macek not been encumbered by pictures showing other events or an inability to add scenes what he might have created could have been more of what was done in the books. Again, I'm not saying that's my take on it but it's an opinion I've read.

I've heard of that before. The LAMR could be the greatest test to see if it's true. Whoever works on it will have more resources at their control to make it whatever Robotech was truly supposed to be like. Unfortunately, Macek won't have as much input on it, but they won't be restricted by stuff that happened in Macross and the like because they're likely to be barred from using most of it anyway.

Edited August 20, 2009 by Einherjar

[BeyondTheGrave]

The more i think about it how the heck do you market a movie whose terminology and scenarios half way sounds like a porno?

I'm guessing it was after 2001 that it became cool for fans to cannibalize Macross into Robotech as they were forced to wait for stuff repeatedly. I also guess the double standard where it was cool to put down "Macross purists" and some other stupid nonsense took off soon after. If I'm a purist what the hell are these people, cannibals?

They are the ones who ride the trend. And when the trend is over they become lost. They then panic and refuse to move on.

off topic:

Yeah Joe Quesada has screwed up Marvel comics by putting Jeph Loeb on every series with high hopes or even a good idea.

The man can't write. Sad to say robotech's story line and mash-up of a series is better than his writing.

[Gubaba]

I'm not saying I support it but another line of thought is that the McKinney books were more true to the story of Robotech and that the animation should not be taken as Gospel as Macek had to use other people's animation to make his story whereas the book writers did not. Had Macek not been encumbered by pictures showing other events or an inability to add scenes what he might have created could have been more of what was done in the books. Again, I'm not saying that's my take on it but it's an opinion I've read.

That seems ass-backwards to me. It's well-documented that Robotech started life as an adaptation of Macross...which then had to have these other episodes grafted on; the staff worked to try to fit it all together, and the McKinney books tried to fill some of the nastiest cracks and holes any way they could.

Unless I'm misunderstanding something, it sounds like the theory you mention implies that Macek came up with the story first, and then had to find anime which expressed his vision. That's pure nonsense.

But it sounds like something the "Macek is a visionary" people would think up...and they're only slightly more deluded than the "Macek is the antichrist" people.

(That's right, I'm of neither party. I'm with the "Macek is a hack" crowd.)

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm not saying I support it but another line of thought is that the McKinney books were more true to the story of Robotech and that the animation should not be taken as Gospel as Macek had to use other people's animation to make his story whereas the book writers did not. Had Macek not been encumbered by pictures showing other events or an inability to add scenes what he might have created could have been more of what was done in the books. Again, I'm not saying that's my take on it but it's an opinion I've read.

Yeah... that's McKinneyist claptrap right there.

It's a matter of public record that Robotech started its horrible, mutant life as an english dub/rewrite of Macross, and that the rest of the content, including the heavier rewrites, were added later to facilitate the addition of Southern Cross and Mospeada to get the show long enough to syndicate. That Carl Macek had some grand vision for Robotech is a load of bull... he didn't start having delusions of being a great writer until he started to work on the monumental turd that was Robotech II: the Sentinels. The McKinney novels were trying to plug the massive plot holes and fix some things that the writers thought were unreasonable, and in the process made the story even more ridiculous, and exacerbated the plot hole problem.

The more i think about it how the heck do you market a movie whose terminology and scenarios half way sounds like a porno?

Oh that's easy... you abandon any pretense of a coherent plot or character development in favor of incomprehensible battle scenes, toilet humor, and throw in some T&A to get the attention of the teenagers. Then you just run commercials showing the obligatory eye candy leading lady running away from explosions in slow motion.

In short... the Bayformers formula.

Edited August 20, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[Einherjar]

Unless I'm misunderstanding something, it sounds like the theory you mention implies that Macek came up with the story first, and then had to find anime which expressed his vision. That's pure nonsense.

(That's right, I'm of neither party. I'm with the "Macek is a hack" crowd.)

Does he have an ego? I could see him or his fans say something like that if he was really self absorbed, or very insecure because he knows he's a hack but ran with the popularity anyway.

[Gubaba]

Does he have an ego? I could see him or his fans say something like that if he was really self absorbed, or very insecure because he knows he's a hack but ran with the popularity anyway.

I don't know if he has an ego NOW, but he certainly did eight years ago:

http://robotech.com/news/viewarticle.php?id=15

Among other things, he says that de-emphasizing the music was a good thing for Robotech, that Macross sequels have followed more in Robotech's footsteps than the original Macross, and that he deliberately made Minmay obnoxious to make a political point.

[Einherjar]

I don't know if he has an ego NOW, but he certainly did eight years ago:

http://robotech.com/news/viewarticle.php?id=15

Among other things, he says that de-emphasizing the music was a good thing for Robotech, that Macross sequels have followed more in Robotech's footsteps than the original Macross, and that he deliberately made Minmay obnoxious to make a political point.

Maybe those steps I came up on getting popular a while back had more truth in them than I thought. They were mostly a joke back then, but maybe.

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...st&p=775099

Macross may have whored out Lynn Minmay in his eyes, but he and his predecessors whored out Rick Hunter instead, to old age.

Edited August 20, 2009 by Einherjar

[BeyondTheGrave]

Oh that's easy... you abandon any pretense of a coherent plot or character development in favor of incomprehensible battle scenes, toilet humor, and throw in some T&A to get the attention of the teenagers. Then you just run commercials showing the obligatory eye candy leading lady running away from explosions in slow motion.

In short... the Bayformers formula.

That only works well for TF though. RT is halfway there without making the LAM each sereis has at least one "shower" scene in it. Just send the scrip to som xxx film company this way everyone gets Valkyrie girls.

I'm surprised captain caps lock has screamed his view point yet.

Edited August 20, 2009 by BeyondTheGrave

[Gubaba]

I'm surprised captain caps lock has screamed his view point yet.

MAYBE HE'S BUSY DREAMING UP OTHER THE COURT DECISSIONS WE ARE PERVY TO CAN BE MADE TO SAY SOMETHING THEY DON'T OR MAYBE HE'S FINDING NEW WAYS WRITE INCOMPERHENSIBLY SO NOBODY ARGUE WITH HIM BECUAS NOBODY UNDERSTANDING HIM.

HEHEHE

Edited August 20, 2009 by Gubaba