HG and Robotech Debates

[VFTF1]

First off, thank you Gubaba and others for answering my factual question.

That said, Seto, I have to challenge your assertion that the thread is not (or at least cannot be taken) as being disrespectful to Robotech and it's fandom. You only have to go to the current page (55, IIRC) and you have Robotech being compared to the Human Papaloma Virus. In one of the early posts, criticism of Tommy, et al was made that they hired "Robotech fanboys" to write Shadow Chronicles. Other examples could be cited...they aren't hard to find.

And they will become more abundant the longer HG and people like Memo persist in making fools of themselves. The more RT.com is about MEMO banning people for asking questions like the ones you're asking here, and the less it is about discussion of Robotech lore and celebration of Robotech, the more inclined others will be to crack jokes and make disrespectful comments.

When Memo and HG start respecting Robotech enough to make something respectable of it - then they'll earn people's respect.

Now they're just acting like clowns. People laugh at clowns.

I watched the "making of" viginette on the SC dvd, and I didn't see "lies and manipulation", I saw producers, writers, a composer, et al, who loved their craft and loved their project and wanted to make it the best t it could be. They were excited about the project, and it showed. And the end result I thought was a fine addition to the Robotech Saga. It isn't my position that you have to like Robotech. If you prefer the original anime serieses, great. But consider how a Robotech fan, coming across this page by accident, would feel after reading the sorts of posts presented. I came here because I was unhappy with the bredth and depth of conversation to be had over at Robotech.com and Robotechx.com. I asked for advice on another board and was told I might try here, with the caveat that I would have to put up with a certain amount of bad attitude towards Robotech.

I consider that a Robotech fan would feel that Macross world is a fair place if he came across this board by accident and read the posts presented.

Why?

Because NOT ONE TIME has any moderator or member EVER suggested that ANYBODY should be banned for expressing opinions that support HG's claims or go against Macross. EVEN MEMO came here, was welcomed and laid out his opinions and nobody banned him and he and others are welcome to come back and write their opinions any time they want.

Meanwhile - go to RT.com and see if Memo and the staff there give the same courtesy to other people.

YOU would have already been threatened by Memo with bannishment just for ASKING the kind of questions that you're asking here.

Speaking not as just a Robotech fan, but as a fan in general, I have to say that the current apparent tone and attidue don't do credit to Marcross fandom or anime fandom in general. It's like a Trek fan dissing a newbie fan because their introduction to Trek was "Enterprise" (or God forbid, JJ's movie).

A better approach I think would be: "Hey, if that's what you like, more power to you. Discuss away. But if you thought Robotech was good, have you ever seen the original Macross from Japan? I think it's even BETTER..." You catch more flies with honey than vinegar, as the saying goes.

But this assumes that most Macross fans are on some religious journey to convert people to Macross or to show Robotech fans the "error" of their ways.

I don't think they are.

In fact, I've stated numerous times that in my opinion, the real reason why Macross fans hate HG so much is NOT Robotech. Its HG's bullying behavior towards retailers who would dare sell Macross and its' general attempts at effectively making Macross illegal in the United States and "worldwide" even.

HG is not competing with the quality of its' product; it's competing by trying to use the law to bully other people and monopolize the market and it's acting like the original Macross never existed and is not relevent and asking fans to go along with them in living in this fantasy universe where Carl Macek is a genius who came up with the greatest story on earth instead of just making the modern equivalent of a bootleg video featuring three random anime, all badly dubbed.

I personally don't see any reason why Macross fans need to have a "Robotech was good too, we can all get along" attitude - and the Star Trek comparisson is totally WRONG.

All of the Star Trek series are part of the same universe.

But Robotech and Macross have NOTHING to do with eachother. Zero. The stories are totally different. The one sad similarily is that Robotech uses the animation from SDFM Macross - but other than that - zero.

A person discovering Macross through Robotech is not the same as someone discovering Enterprise through The Next Generation or whatever.

True - it is a fact tha many people discover Macross through Robotech - but in making the discovery - the deeper into Macross they go - the more they discover that Robotech has nothing to do with Macross and that you actually need to purge your memory of Robotech to fully enjoy Macross because other wise the show makes no sense.

Naturally Macross fans DO respect that Robotech exists and that there will always be fans of Robotech - and if the Robotech fandom and HG were able to be equally respectful of Macross then there would be a live-and-let-live attitude and everything would be fine.

But as things stand, HG is actively trying to shut down Macross related businesses and keeps throwing words like "legal" and "illegal" around.

It is not civil to threaten other people with the law. It's like try hanging out with someone who, if they don't like what you're saying, keeps threatening to call the cops on you.

That's not respectful. Macross fans just give their opinions - no body thinks HG should be shut down or that Robotech should be censored and made illegal and Toynami needs to be raided.

But Robotech/HG people don't apply the same respectful standard to Macross.

Of course - this is only because they are weak. If they actually had a good product, they wouldn't waste time on legal hassels, they would be pumping out more product and marketing it.

Anyways - to sum up - I think your view of the issue is misguided because you ignore some very basic facts (all mentioned above).

Pete

[Gubaba]

Took out? You mean more victims of the Memo banhammer? For what? Just asking for legal information?

Waters7 was banned for giving an account of the facts that ran contrary to Memo's understanding of the situation. That pissed off Robelwell202, and he got banned for his angry retort (which he reposted here a page or two ago).

I'm telling ya, pretty soon Memo, Mav, and Pizza the Hutt will be the only members LEFT over there.

[Seto Kaiba]

I thought it admirable that they made the product THEY wanted to make by fans and for fans as opposed to a watered down "commercial" version any releasing party would have foisted on them.

Wait a tic... you've just completely invalidated one of your previous complaints. This one, to be specific:

First off, thank you Gubaba and others for answering my factual question.

In one of the early posts, criticism of Tommy, et al was made that they hired "Robotech fanboys" to write Shadow Chronicles.

If they set out to make a movie "by the fans, for the fans", then yes, they DID hire Robotech fanboys to work on the movie. That's exactly what "by the fans" means... that fans were involved in its creation. Make up your mind please.

I think you're being a little hard on the guy, Seto.

I disagree. If the only reason he's come here is because someone told him this was a great place to find Robotech discussions, then he got some seriously bad advice from someone, and he's in the wrong place. This is MacrossWorld, not "RobotechWorld". Don't we get fairly regular complaints from Azrael and co. that the purpose for this site is not to be a hangout for Robotech fans who've been banned from/left Robotech.com?

At this point, it seems like he's rather...unaware of the blood spilled and lives shattered by Macross v. Robotech.

A problem that could easily have been remedied if we'd copied Bri's summary into the first post of this thread... I still don't understand why we didn't, and why it hasn't been updated with the additional sources we've found since then.

Edited October 22, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[Einherjar]

You could also say that the creators of the original shows that make up Robotech were part of the problem that caused Shadow Chronicles to be done entirely under HG's control, for good legal reasons.

I disagree. If the only reason he's come here is because someone told him this was a great place to find Robotech discussions, then he got some seriously bad advice from someone, and he's in the wrong place. This is MacrossWorld, not "RobotechWorld". Don't we get fairly regular complaints from Azrael and co. that the purpose for this site is not to be a hangout for Robotech fans who've been banned from/left Robotech.com?

There are a lot of people out there who still think Robotech and Macross are the same thing despite being legally separate entities. It might be an honest mistake unless certain people are still working their magic.

[Capt Christopher Donovan]

And they will become more abundant the longer HG and people like Memo persist in making fools of themselves. The more RT.com is about MEMO banning people for asking questions like the ones you're asking here, and the less it is about discussion of Robotech lore and celebration of Robotech, the more inclined others will be to crack jokes and make disrespectful comments.

When Memo and HG start respecting Robotech enough to make something respectable of it - then they'll earn people's respect.

No doubt that Memo is being harsh and strident. But many of the crits I've heard go beyond HG's business practices and appear to be aimed at the creative side and the fanbase...those are two different things.

I consider that a Robotech fan would feel that Macross world is a fair place if he came across this board by accident and read the posts presented.

Why?

Because NOT ONE TIME has any moderator or member EVER suggested that ANYBODY should be banned for expressing opinions that support HG's claims or go against Macross. EVEN MEMO came here, was welcomed and laid out his opinions and nobody banned him and he and others are welcome to come back and write their opinions any time they want.

Meanwhile - go to RT.com and see if Memo and the staff there give the same courtesy to other people.

So you have no problem, for example, with comparing Robotech with the Human Papaloma Virus. That's being "fair" to the fans and creative staff because you don't like HG's business practices and the modding at RT.com...

YOU would have already been threatened by Memo with bannishment just for ASKING the kind of questions that you're asking here.

Again, I have no doubt you are correct, but that in my mind does not justify being condescending and rude towards the entire franchise and it's fanbase.

But this assumes that most Macross fans are on some religious journey to convert people to Macross or to show Robotech fans the "error" of their ways.

It assumes nothing of the sort. It assumes that generally it's better for disparate groups to try NOT to deliberately antagonize one another.

In fact, I've stated numerous times that in my opinion, the real reason why Macross fans hate HG so much is NOT Robotech. Its HG's bullying behavior towards retailers who would dare sell Macross and its' general attempts at effectively making Macross illegal in the United States and "worldwide" even.

Maybe so. It certainly wouldn't hurt. But does HG's business practices make the fans and the creative staff worthy of your scorn?

HG is not competing with the quality of its' product; it's competing by trying to use the law to bully other people and monopolize the market and it's acting like the original Macross never existed and is not relevent and asking fans to go along with them in living in this fantasy universe where Carl Macek is a genius who came up with the greatest story on earth instead of just making the modern equivalent of a bootleg video featuring three random anime, all badly dubbed.

In your opinion, which I respect your right to hold.

I personally don't see any reason why Macross fans need to have a "Robotech was good too, we can all get along" attitude -

Maybe because it's the right thing to do, and would show you in a better light than "those horrible Robotech fans" you seem so bent on trashing?

Naturally Macross fans DO respect that Robotech exists and that there will always be fans of Robotech - and if the Robotech fandom and HG were able to be equally respectful of Macross then there would be a live-and-let-live attitude and everything would be fine.

But as things stand, HG is actively trying to shut down Macross related businesses and keeps throwing words like "legal" and "illegal" around.

It is not civil to threaten other people with the law. It's like try hanging out with someone who, if they don't like what you're saying, keeps threatening to call the cops on you.

That's not respectful. Macross fans just give their opinions - no body thinks HG should be shut down or that Robotech should be censored and made illegal and Toynami needs to be raided.

But Robotech/HG people don't apply the same respectful standard to Macross.

Again, crit HG, not Robotech and it's fans.

[Capt Christopher Donovan]

Wait a tic... you've just completely invalidated one of your previous complaints. This one, to be specific:

If they set out to make a movie "by the fans, for the fans", then yes, they DID hire Robotech fanboys to work on the movie. That's exactly what "by the fans" means... that fans were involved in its creation. Make up your mind please.

My complaint was that the reference to fan involvement with production was intended to be dismissive and derrogatory and infer that said participation was a BAD thing.

I disagree. If the only reason he's come here is because someone told him this was a great place to find Robotech discussions, then he got some seriously bad advice from someone, and he's in the wrong place. This is MacrossWorld, not "RobotechWorld". Don't we get fairly regular complaints from Azrael and co. that the purpose for this site is not to be a hangout for Robotech fans who've been banned from/left Robotech.com?

How about a site where fans of BOTH (since they're built in large part on the same material) can hang out TOGETHER and exchange thoughts and perspectives in a friendly and respectful way about BOTH fandoms.

Robotech fans don't have 'cooties'...nor are they out to ruin your fandom of the original material. Furthermore, a few individuals notwithstanding, we don't bite.

[Capt Christopher Donovan]

You could also say that the creators of the original shows that make up Robotech were part of the problem that caused Shadow Chronicles to be done entirely under HG's control, for good legal reasons.

There are a lot of people out there who still think Robotech and Macross are the same thing despite being legally separate entities. It might be an honest mistake unless certain people are still working their magic.

Not the SAME thing, but "sisters of the same mother" as it were. Why can't one enjoy both or either as they choose without being looked upon with scorn?

[VFTF1]

How about a site where fans of BOTH (since they're built in large part on the same material) can hang out TOGETHER and exchange thoughts and perspectives in a friendly and respectful way about BOTH fandoms.

If there are enoughb Macross and Robotech fans to warrant it - why not?

But you know - there's a reason why such a site doesn't exist - and I could be wrong (I have been wrong many times) - but I think the reason is... no body - at least no Macross fan - wants it.

See - this is the problem with forced intergration - it presumes that people who like different things MUST hang out together and that seperating into different groups is some how "not the right thing."

But honestly - as a Macross fan, I hang out at Macrossworld.com to talk about Macross, not Robotech. And the only reason this thread is open is because Bigbadtoystore was threatened by HG and pulled their Yamato Macross products for a while (this was the original reason why this entire thread was re-opened after being closed for a long time).

The thread exists solely because there has to be somewhere on Macrossworld.com where people can discuss these issues without having Robotech and Robotech related stuff spill over into other threads (which it occasionally does anyways). But for systematic Robotech related talk - this is the thread.

And for me - personally - that's enough.

People who come here love Macross and don't care about Robotech. They are not interested in what the next Robotech saga will be, but rather they want to talk about Macross.

Your proposal is like if I went to Seibertron.com and said this:

"Hey - shouldnt there be ONE website for Gobots and Transformers fans? They're both transforming robots from the 80s. And you guys sometimes make disparaging remarks about Gobots. Can't we get along?"

But my question is - why?

Why does there have to be unity amongst fans of different stories?

I prefer a live and let live policy. Naturally it's nice when people talk to eachother civily, and naturally it's good to sometimes come out of ones' isolated fandom and check out other stuff.

But surely it's also good to have dedicated websites like Macrossworld which is interested in celebrating Macross, not Robotech?

If you think that a Macross + Robotech fansite would work - open it.

I would sign up - just because I'm interested in Macross, so Id like to see what you guys would do. Who knows? Maybe it would be fun. The internet is inifinite -you can create the website and I'll happily visit and be a member.

But I won't stop making Macrossworld my primary destination because I love Macross that much.

And people have the right to be exclusive and discriminatory. We're not advocating that Robotech be banned, censored, that its' fans get shipped to Syberia. They can celebrate their tv show and their toys - fine. Just let Macross fans do the same.

Pete

[Lolicon]

No doubt that Memo is being harsh and strident. But many of the crits I've heard go beyond HG's business practices and appear to be aimed at the creative side and the fanbase...those are two different things.

There's little that's "creative" about Robotech. The vaunted "original 85" is just a hack job of three different shows to meet syndication requirements and "westernize" them. Pretty much everything after the "original 85" is been pretty dismal, what little there is.

So you have no problem, for example, with comparing Robotech with the Human Papaloma Virus. That's being "fair" to the fans and creative staff because you don't like HG's business practices and the modding at RT.com...

It's been my experience that Robotech fanboys cannot distinguish between farce and fact. "Robotech gives you HPV." If you read something like that and actually take it seriously, then there are much deeper problems to address than the nonsensical musings of a few internet forum posters.

Again, I have no doubt you are correct, but that in my mind does not justify being condescending and rude towards the entire franchise and it's fanbase.

I'm not sure where the "entire" fanbase comes in. Why don't you talk to Happy Penguins et al. Rude towards the franchise? Why not? Robotech is a hack job like Turkish Star Wars, and it deserves to be treated like one.

Maybe so. It certainly wouldn't hurt. But does HG's business practices make the fans and the creative staff worthy of your scorn?

Yes because they're accomplices to the eternal shell game that is called Robotech.

In your opinion, which I respect your right to hold.

I'm amazed at how fanboys like to use "in your opinion" to trivialize and dismiss the points made by others. The only real opinion in his remark was pertaining to the quality of the dubbing. Robotech is a hack job and Macek is one deluded mofo.

Again, crit HG, not Robotech and it's fans.

Thanks for once again proving the existence of fanboys who believe Robotech is perfect and beyond the critique of mere mortals. The only fans really being ridiculed are the nutjobs like Memo and others who live in their "Robotech is perfect" world.

Wow I actually made a serious post in this thread. It's all over now...

[Einherjar]

Not the SAME thing, but "sisters of the same mother" as it were. Why can't one enjoy both or either as they choose without being looked upon with scorn?

It only looks that way. No, it's actually one show eventually giving birth to the other, unintentionally. I like how Zen72, a Robotech fan cool with both sides but with has issues with HG and people like MEMO as well, puts it, "Without Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada, Robotech wouldn't exist." In fact, I like him.

But if you want to put it that way, the relationship is more like Cain and Abel; Robotech is actively trying to undermine the other, maybe even kill it off to get all the attention. The other one (Macross) just wants to be left alone. And we've seen proof of that from the HG crew over the years.

Edited October 22, 2009 by Einherjar

[VFTF1]

I wrote:

If you think that a Macross + Robotech fansite would work - open it.

I would sign up - just because I'm interested in Macross, so Id like to see what you guys would do. Who knows? Maybe it would be fun. The internet is inifinite -you can create the website and I'll happily visit and be a member.

Oh wait.

What am I saying?

Ooops!

I forgot.

Hah ha See - look.

GUess what would happen if you created an AUTHENTIC Robotech/Macross fansite?

HG would try to shut it down.

Why?

Well - go to the For sale and trade thread here? Check out all those "illegal" Yamato products being peddled. The horror!

And check out the debate that goes against the terms of use HG laid down at RT.com

So..

My question to you is this:

If you so badly want a site where both Robotech and Macross are respected - why do you write as if it were Macross fans preventing this from coming about?

The fact is that it's HG and its' dedicated followers who will not let this come about because they would not allow for co-existence on an equal level.

They're the ones who prevent what you want from happening.

I mean... imagine a website that tried to promote BOTH Toynami Robotech products AND Yamato Macross products?

And tell me - who's stopping such a website from existing? Certainly not Yamato and certainly not Yamato fans.

Heck - we have dedicated threads here for Toynami products - and people here collect Toynami products and there are no flame wars between Yamato fans and Toynami fans. In fact, there are more arguments between Bandai and Yamato fans

We all live happily ever after.

Introduce HG and Robotech fans of Memo's ilk and suddenly the conversation would look different.

On MW.com right now - this is what things look like:

Fan 1: I just got Yamato's new VF-1 -it's so cool.

Fan 2: I got it too and it broke. I hate Yamato!

Fan 3: I'm sticking with Toynami's 1/100 line because the other stuff is just too expensive.

Fan 4: BUt the Toynami stuff sucks.

Fan 5: What do you guys think about Bandai?

Fan 6: It sucks, it's not as accurate as Yamato.

Fan 7: But at least it doesn't break

etc etc

Now - if HG had anything to say about it - this is what the conversation would look like:

FAN 1: I just got Yamato's new...

MEMO: YOU BAN!!

FAN 2: What do you guys think about Bandai's new

MEMO: YOU BAN!!

Fan 3: Does anybody have a Veritech Ben Dixon for trade?

The End.

I really don't understand why the complaints about Macrossworld or the attitudes of Macross fans since Macross fandom are the ones being wronged here.

The blame clearly lies with HG - but more to the point - with the fans of Robotech who support HG.

Because ultimately - if there weren't fans who supported HG's shenaniguns - HG wouldn't be able to do what it does.

So while naturally it is not right to generalize and say "all fans" are to blame (and I'm not saying that) - I think it would be fair to say that there are some Robotech fans who are motivated by either blind devotion OR are simplfy not reflecting on the situation who are fueling HG's ability to make life miserable and make it hard for the fandoms to co-exist with one another.

Pete

[Seto Kaiba]

No doubt that Memo is being harsh and strident. But many of the crits I've heard go beyond HG's business practices and appear to be aimed at the creative side and the fanbase...those are two different things.

[...]

Again, I have no doubt you are correct, but that in my mind does not justify being condescending and rude towards the entire franchise and it's fanbase.

[...]

But does HG's business practices make the fans and the creative staff worthy of your scorn?

[...]

Again, crit HG, not Robotech and it's fans.

[...]

My complaint was that the reference to fan involvement with production was intended to be dismissive and derrogatory and infer that said participation was a BAD thing.

So, while you profess to respect the opinions of others, the truth here is that you only respect the opinions of people who agree with you. I'd be disappointed, but lately this is the sort of behavior I've come to expect from Robotech fans... and that's really disappointing on several levels. Is it really that hard to accept that the people criticizing Robotech MIGHT have valid opinions too?

I don't know why you're arrogant enough to assert that Robotech is somehow above criticism. I assure you, it most definitely is not. If anything, it deserves criticism more than most shows, since there is precious little about it that can honestly be called original... it is, after all, a hastily assembled amalgam of three existing shows created for the sole purpose of making one show long enough to syndicate. I also find it frankly offensive that you're coming here knowing next to nothing of the legal situation or the history of the interaction between Harmony Gold and Macross's creators and trying to tell us what we can and cannot criticize.

Yes, it's true that there's no shortage of reasons to criticize Harmony Gold... their extremely questionable business ethics, the underhanded tactics they use to keep Macross out of the hands of western audiences, the way their company representatives talk down to their fans like naughty children, and the fact that just asking a question about their ability to use Macross materials can get you banned to name only a few. Give me a good reason why we SHOULDN'T criticize the people who not only endure this abuse in silence, but THANK their abusers by continuing to support them financially, or, for that matter, attack those who dare to criticize or even object to this system of abuse? For that matter, why should the sub-par products being sold to prop up this abusive system be exempt from criticism? The heart of their franchise has less artistic merit than a Korean-made knockoff like Space Gandam V... it's little more than a bootleg. Hell, their newest offering was a fan-film composed almost entirely of material scavenged from the aborted Robotech II: the Sentinels series.

How about a site where fans of BOTH (since they're built in large part on the same material) can hang out TOGETHER and exchange thoughts and perspectives in a friendly and respectful way about BOTH fandoms.

Good idea, you go make that site and let us know how it turns out.

Since it didn't seem to sink in the first few times, let me remind you again. This is not a Robotech fansite. If you want to talk about Robotech, go to a Robotech fansite. This is MacrossWorld, it is a Macross fansite, not a Robotech fansite. This site was created to be a place to talk about Macross, and the site's owners have expressed the sentiment that they would prefer Robotech remained as far removed from the proceedings as possible. If you cannot respect that, nobody's forcing you to come here.

Edited October 22, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[VFTF1]

Yeah - Seto has a point here on another issue which I too would like to take up...

Namely:

Why are you saying that people are being rude and abusive just because they're saying bad things about Robotech and Robotech fans?

I mean - people have different opinions. Go into the toy threads here - see how many Macross fans keep attacking Yamato for bad quality control and high prices while other fans (like me) defend them.

But do I think that MW members who say bad things about Yamato are rude, offensive and out of line? NO.

When people come together to talk about stuff, they will disagree. "Respecting" eachother doesn't mean being politically correct and never saying anything controversial.

It means not using violence against eachother, not banning people for having a different point of view, and not using swear words or personal attacks.

But people CAN and HAVE and will continue to say critical things - and sometimes they have nothing but their feelings to back them up. That's just fine.

Also - we do joke around a lot.

That's why sometimes, when coming to a new board - it helps to read some of the more popular threads through - not just for information, but to get a feel for the people who post a lot - so you don't misunderstand them.

I appreciate that you came here looking for intelligent discussion - and you'll find it - only about MACROSS.

Robotech gets this thread, where we trash it and where I asked someone to please come up with some compelling reasons for liking Robotech beyond "cause when I was a kid it was neato." Still waiting for somebody to come up with it.

Meanwhile, check out our Macross Frontier episode by episode discussions. Check out the legion of threads discussing Macross 7. Check out our endless debates about songs and singers. Check out the great photography in the toy threads and the discussion about quality control, anime, prices...

I challenge you to find a more intelligent english language anime forum - not just Macross forum - but anime forum - anywhere on the internet.

Check out the modeling section - we have artists here who built their own star ships, who cast their own parts for custom valkyrie - not to mention excellent modelers and painters.

This whole place is alive with talented people.

We have folks who translate Macross books from Japanese to english so we can enjoy it.

We have people from all over the world; many Japanese speakers/Japanese residents..

We're the best website in the universe

niah niah niah

Pete

[EXO]

I'm telling ya, pretty soon Memo, Mav, and Pizza the Hutt will be the only members LEFT over there.

The problem is that the people in charge over there just want to keep their little circle happy. They don't really want different opinions to shatter their reality. You gotta wonder why we keep a lot of the jerks and douchebags in MW but I think even with all the difference of opinions we're all just too happy hating each other... lol. I mean we've only have had a couple of bans the last few years and it's most likely been the same person over and over again...

[Capt Christopher Donovan]

There's little that's "creative" about Robotech. The vaunted "original 85" is just a hack job of three different shows to meet syndication requirements and "westernize" them. Pretty much everything after the "original 85" is been pretty dismal, what little there is.

In your opinion, which many many Robotech fans obviously disagree with. Robotech was successfully aired in the US, and must have made money for those who aired it after all.

It's been my experience that Robotech fanboys cannot distinguish between farce and fact. "Robotech gives you HPV." If you read something like that and actually take it seriously, then there are much deeper problems to address than the nonsensical musings of a few internet forum posters.

If it were an isolated comment perhaps, but it is not. I need go no further than this very post I am responding to for more than adequate proof of that.

I'm not sure where the "entire" fanbase comes in. Why don't you talk to Happy Penguins et al. Rude towards the franchise? Why not? Robotech is a hack job like Turkish Star Wars, and it deserves to be treated like one.

People's Exhibit #1.

Yes because they're accomplices to the eternal shell game that is called Robotech.

People's Exhibit #2.

I'm amazed at how fanboys like to use "in your opinion" to trivialize and dismiss the points made by others. The only real opinion in his remark was pertaining to the quality of the dubbing. Robotech is a hack job and Macek is one deluded mofo.

I'm amazed at how many people treat their own opinions as undebatable fact. Both the opinion I was responding to originally, and your bald assertion as to the lack of quality in Robotech.

Thanks for once again proving the existence of fanboys who believe Robotech is perfect and beyond the critique of mere mortals. The only fans really being ridiculed are the nutjobs like Memo and others who live in their "Robotech is perfect" world.

Never claimed it was perfect. Neither is it the trash you claim it is.

[Capt Christopher Donovan]

I wrote:

Oh wait.

What am I saying?

Ooops!

I forgot.

Hah ha See - look.

GUess what would happen if you created an AUTHENTIC Robotech/Macross fansite?

HG would try to shut it down.

Why?

Well - go to the For sale and trade thread here? Check out all those "illegal" Yamato products being peddled. The horror!

And check out the debate that goes against the terms of use HG laid down at RT.com

So..

My question to you is this:

If you so badly want a site where both Robotech and Macross are respected - why do you write as if it were Macross fans preventing this from coming about?

The fact is that it's HG and its' dedicated followers who will not let this come about because they would not allow for co-existence on an equal level.

They're the ones who prevent what you want from happening.

I mean... imagine a website that tried to promote BOTH Toynami Robotech products AND Yamato Macross products?

And tell me - who's stopping such a website from existing? Certainly not Yamato and certainly not Yamato fans.

Heck - we have dedicated threads here for Toynami products - and people here collect Toynami products and there are no flame wars between Yamato fans and Toynami fans. In fact, there are more arguments between Bandai and Yamato fans

We all live happily ever after.

Introduce HG and Robotech fans of Memo's ilk and suddenly the conversation would look different.

On MW.com right now - this is what things look like:

Fan 1: I just got Yamato's new VF-1 -it's so cool.

Fan 2: I got it too and it broke. I hate Yamato!

Fan 3: I'm sticking with Toynami's 1/100 line because the other stuff is just too expensive.

Fan 4: BUt the Toynami stuff sucks.

Fan 5: What do you guys think about Bandai?

Fan 6: It sucks, it's not as accurate as Yamato.

Fan 7: But at least it doesn't break

etc etc

Now - if HG had anything to say about it - this is what the conversation would look like:

FAN 1: I just got Yamato's new...

MEMO: YOU BAN!!

FAN 2: What do you guys think about Bandai's new

MEMO: YOU BAN!!

Fan 3: Does anybody have a Veritech Ben Dixon for trade?

The End.

I really don't understand why the complaints about Macrossworld or the attitudes of Macross fans since Macross fandom are the ones being wronged here.

The blame clearly lies with HG - but more to the point - with the fans of Robotech who support HG.

Because ultimately - if there weren't fans who supported HG's shenaniguns - HG wouldn't be able to do what it does.

So while naturally it is not right to generalize and say "all fans" are to blame (and I'm not saying that) - I think it would be fair to say that there are some Robotech fans who are motivated by either blind devotion OR are simplfy not reflecting on the situation who are fueling HG's ability to make life miserable and make it hard for the fandoms to co-exist with one another.

Pete

None of which I deny. Yet it is the "Macross fans" that are constantly making disparaging remarks NOT about HG's business practices, but about Robotech itself, and the fans thereof (as in the post I just responded to prior to this one). Are Robotech fans supposed to STOP being fans because HG's business office is staffed by jerks and a-holes?

[Seto Kaiba]

I challenge you to find a more intelligent english language anime forum - not just Macross forum - but anime forum - anywhere on the internet.

Check out the modeling section - we have artists here who built their own star ships, who cast their own parts for custom valkyrie - not to mention excellent modelers and painters.

This whole place is alive with talented people.

We have folks who translate Macross books from Japanese to english so we can enjoy it.

We have people from all over the world; many Japanese speakers/Japanese residents..

It's not JUST that we have a lot of talented people here... there's a lot more solidarity to be found here than I've ever encountered on a Robotech website. I don't say that lightly either... I was an extremely active contributor over on Robotech.com for six years before I got banned for daring to disagree with a moderator's crackpot theory, and I'm still somewhat active on RobotechX.

On most Robotech sites, if you DARE to express the feeling that Robotech is anything less than the best show ever made, and Harmony Gold is staffed by wonderful people who set the gold standard for creativity, they'll run you out of town as a "Macross purist troll", even if you've never even SEEN Macross before. Heaven forbid you should actually MENTION that you like Macross or prefer it to Robotech... then they REALLY go to town on you. Look at the two biggest Robotech websites... Robotech.com and RobotechX. One is the official corporate site, where you can be banned for asking the wrong question or even saying you didn't like Shadow Chronicles, and the fans are constantly reporting each other over the tiniest infractions in hopes of currying favor with the powers that be in hopes of gaining moderator powers. The other is more of same, just run by one of the kiss-asses instead of the soulless corporate goons (who at least have an excuse for being jerks), where lies are news and the truth is obsolete. Anyone who's even halfway decent gets hounded off the site for not thinking Shadow Chronicles deserves an academy award, or not believing MEMO's provably-wrong crackpot theories about the Macross legal situation.

You come over to a Macross site like this one, and the difference is like night and day. Over here, there's a lot more respect for people's opinions. We joke around a lot. Intellectual debate and criticism are not just welcomed, they're heartily encouraged. If you don't agree with what someone is saying, it's usually no big deal. But the most important thing of all is that Macross fans support each other. If you're looking for information, ask and it will almost certainly be provided. If you're trying to find something, you can bet that there'll be at least a few helpful souls who'll point you in the right direction or even help you look. If you want tips on translation or help with a model kit, there's always a helpful soul around. Even if you hate one or more of the Macross shows, odds are you'll have at least one show you like in common with anyone you're disagreeing with.

Honestly, I think part of the reason there's a strong spirit of unity in the Macross fanbase is because so much of what we have is literally "by the fans, for the fans" as a matter of necessity. Our fanbase is sustained by the work of people who do what they do to share their love of Macross with other anime fans, and that's created a fan culture that puts a lot of importance on helping others. Look who the most respected members of the fan community are... it's not the people who've gained positions of authority by kissing ass like it is in the Robotech fanbase, it's the people who've done the most for their fellow fans. And you know what, that's the way it SHOULD be.

EDIT: In hindsight, this is very likely the sappiest thing I've ever written... just pretend you never read it and we'll all go about our business.

Edited October 22, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[Seto Kaiba]

None of which I deny. Yet it is the "Macross fans" that are constantly making disparaging remarks NOT about HG's business practices, but about Robotech itself, and the fans thereof (as in the post I just responded to prior to this one).

On what grounds are you claiming that the criticism is undeserved?

As I have said many times before, there's plenty of things objectionable about Harmony Gold's business practices and the way they treat the fans of their products. We really can't hold the fans blameless, because they're WILLINGLY supporting their abusers by continuing to buy their products. There's more than a few things to criticize about the products (including the animation), both from a quality standpoint and an artistic standpoint. Can we really hold up Robotech as being an artistically sound work when it's nothing more than a hastily-assembled, completely unoriginal product made by combining three unrelated shows using a highly unfaithful dub? Can we honestly say Shadow Chronicles is an original work when it's nothing more than a low-budget fan-wank made from set pieces pilfered from a previous, failed project?

Are Robotech fans supposed to STOP being fans because HG's business office is staffed by jerks and a-holes?

Should a woman who's in love with her boyfriend stay with him even if he hits her, lies to her, and makes promises he can't keep?

Edited October 22, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[Capt Christopher Donovan]

So, while you profess to respect the opinions of others, the truth here is that you only respect the opinions of people who agree with you. I'd be disappointed, but lately this is the sort of behavior I've come to expect from Robotech fans... and that's really disappointing on several levels. Is it really that hard to accept that the people criticizing Robotech MIGHT have valid opinions too?

I have repeatedly said you have the right to your own opinion. That does not prevent me from disagreeing with it, nor from calling you on being excessively rude and condescending to someone of differing opinion.

I don't know why you're arrogant enough to assert that Robotech is somehow above criticism.

Show me where I've said that.

I also find it frankly offensive that you're coming here knowing next to nothing of the legal situation or the history of the interaction between Harmony Gold and Macross's creators and trying to tell us what we can and cannot criticize.

1) I came here in part seeking that very information, which several people have been kind enough to provide, and for which I thanked them.

2) If you can explain to me why I, the Robotech "fan on the street" should bear your scorn because HG is being a strong arm, I might reconsider. Disney is notorious for being ruthless in the business office as well, should I shun all Disney properties and projects as well?

The heart of their franchise has less artistic merit than a Korean-made knockoff like Space Gandam V... it's little more than a bootleg. Hell, their newest offering was a fan-film composed almost entirely of material scavenged from the aborted Robotech II: the Sentinels series.

People's Exhibit #3. I could as easily say that Macek (sp?) took three subpar anime shows and turned them into an interesting and powerful story that made the originals look like the writings of a two-year old. You would probably be upset with me if I did. Why should we Robotech fans NOT be upset when you make broadly overbearing slams like the above against us?

Since it didn't seem to sink in the first few times, let me remind you again. This is not a Robotech fansite. If you want to talk about Robotech, go to a Robotech fansite. This is MacrossWorld, it is a Macross fansite, not a Robotech fansite. This site was created to be a place to talk about Macross, and the site's owners have expressed the sentiment that they would prefer Robotech remained as far removed from the proceedings as possible. If you cannot respect that, nobody's forcing you to come here.

I came here looking for information and hopefully some interesting and informative debate on certain issues (as something of a "gear head", I have a great interest in the "tech" in the fictional universe). The existing "pure" Robotech sites I visited were frankly bereft of traffic and even MORE bereft of content. I'd hoped that, since there is a lot of overlap on that front, I might do better here.

Instead I find all mention of Robotech confined to one thread that is primarily a forum to relentlessly BASH the show, and it's producers (creatively), and it's fans. I find that sad.

[EXO]

None of which I deny. Yet it is the "Macross fans" that are constantly making disparaging remarks NOT about HG's business practices, but about Robotech itself, and the fans thereof (as in the post I just responded to prior to this one). Are Robotech fans supposed to STOP being fans because HG's business office is staffed by jerks and a-holes?

First of all, you're WRONG AND contradicting yourself. I would say that 99.9% of the complaint here is about HG's practices. I don't even know how you can make that assumption without going thru the all the threads as suggested. You came in just hours ago not knowing where to find answers then all of the sudden you can safely assume our demeanor??? I don't think so.

And now your contradicting yourself because you're saying that we think that the staff are jerks and A-holes (which is not true, because a lot of is get along personally with some of those guys though we don't agree with their practices) but isn't saying that they are jerks and aholes a remark more about HG and not Robotech the product?

I think that you came here with a predisposition of how it's going to be signing up at MW as a Robotech fan and set yourself up defensively and you already have your guard up for being a Robotech fan. Guess what? I'm a Robotech fan... just the original airing of the show and not the NEW merchandise and production... I have experienced all of that first hand and my dissatisfaction with all the stuff they push now makes me biased against people that actually fans of it. I've spent money and wasted time on it and for someone to come in here and say that its unwarranted really offends me.

You don't have to stop being a Robotech fan because of the HG staff and how they banned you, but don't expect people to respect you for loving mediocrity or less there of.

[Capt Christopher Donovan]

You come over to a Macross site like this one, and the difference is like night and day. Over here, there's a lot more respect for people's opinions. We joke around a lot. Intellectual debate and criticism are not just welcomed, they're heartily encouraged. If you don't agree with what someone is saying, it's usually no big deal. But the most important thing of all is that Macross fans support each other. If you're looking for information, ask and it will almost certainly be provided. If you're trying to find something, you can bet that there'll be at least a few helpful souls who'll point you in the right direction or even help you look. If you want tips on translation or help with a model kit, there's always a helpful soul around. Even if you hate one or more of the Macross shows, odds are you'll have at least one show you like in common with anyone you're disagreeing with.

As long as you hate Robotech.

Honestly, I think part of the reason there's a strong spirit of unity in the Macross fanbase is because so much of what we have is literally "by the fans, for the fans" as a matter of necessity. Our fanbase is sustained by the work of people who do what they do to share their love of Macross with other anime fans, and that's created a fan culture that puts a lot of importance on helping others. Look who the most respected members of the fan community are... it's not the people who've gained positions of authority by kissing ass like it is in the Robotech fanbase, it's the people who've done the most for their fellow fans. And you know what, that's the way it SHOULD be.

Thank you for insulting not only me, but 1000s and 1000s of other Robotech fans who don't kiss ANYONE'S ass and just want to discuss our show in the company of other anime fans...

[EXO]

1) I came here in part seeking that very information, which several people have been kind enough to provide, and for which I thanked them.

2) If you can explain to me why I, the Robotech "fan on the street" should bear your scorn because HG is being a strong arm, I might reconsider.

I came here looking for information and hopefully some interesting and informative debate on certain issues (as something of a "gear head", I have a great interest in the "tech" in the fictional universe). The existing "pure" Robotech sites I visited were frankly bereft of traffic and even MORE bereft of content. I'd hoped that, since there is a lot of overlap on that front, I might do better here.

Instead I find all mention of Robotech confined to one thread that is primarily a forum to relentlessly BASH the show, and it's producers (creatively), and it's fans. I find that sad.

1) Good

2) No explanations... seriously read the damn thread! Youre not the first noobie here.

Try reading the rest of the forum if you're truly interested in other mech stuff, stop whining about it.

You find it sad? Tough... What did you want? SEVERAL THREADS that BASH the show, and it's producers (creatively), and it's fans?

[EXO]

Thank you for insulting not only me, but 1000s and 1000s of other Robotech fans

Wow, I didn't know there were over 2000 Robotech fans...

[EXO]

2 more months and this jerk will be singing Ai Oboete Imasu Ka...

Where's Whamhammer? I'll show you how it's done here!

[VFTF1]

Disney is notorious for being ruthless in the business office as well, should I shun all Disney properties and projects as well?

Um...if you disagree with their ruthless business practices then...YES!

Hello? You speak of it as if it were "rude" to call a spade a spade. I know about Disney's crap practices first hand because here in Poland there have been instances where Disney came in and told little kids who wanted to put on a Charity Whiney the Pooh play that they couldn't do it because Disney owns Whinney The Pooh etc etc etc.

There's even an organization dedicated to fighting for people's rights to the enjoyment of cultural icons without interference from corporations.

I'm not saying I agree with everything they do, and I myself being an owner of copyrighted material have both an interest in the maintenence of copyright protection law AND certain moral and intellectual arguments that back these laws BUT that doesn't mean I'm blind to the other side of the debate - and in fact I have great sympathies for them.

I definitely think copyright laws need to be re-thought and re-written to be both just and in accordance with the times.

There - look - that's an opinion.

And I can go on enjoying Disney products while having opinions about some practices of Disney that I don't like.

And other people can disagree with me.

I don't understand why you can't agree that people can be fans of something or enjoy something while shunning the practices of the people who made or provided it on other fronts?

People's Exhibit #3. I could as easily say that Macek (sp?) took three subpar anime shows and turned them into an interesting and powerful story that made the originals look like the writings of a two-year old. You would probably be upset with me if I did.

No.

I would praise you and love it if you did that.

I've been waiting for someone to kindly show me why Robotech is so cool for a long, LOOOOOONG time now.

No takes so far.

Mind you - by "show me" I don't mean write one sentence that says "Robotech is cool" - I mean go episode by episode - write an essay with meaty arguments - reference the Robotech novels. Compare it to the Macross shows and OVAs - and take it apart - and demonstrate why Robotech is so awesome.

So far NOBODY has even ATTEMPTED to do it.

If you did it - I would defend your essay and be very interested in reading it.

Meanwhile - you can find thousands of pages of fans talking in detail about why Macross is cool in various threads on this website.

I came here looking for information and hopefully some interesting and informative debate on certain issues (as something of a "gear head", I have a great interest in the "tech" in the fictional universe). The existing "pure" Robotech sites I visited were frankly bereft of traffic and even MORE bereft of content. I'd hoped that, since there is a lot of overlap on that front, I might do better here.

Instead I find all mention of Robotech confined to one thread that is primarily a forum to relentlessly BASH the show, and it's producers (creatively), and it's fans. I find that sad.

This is like saying that you're a HUGE FAN of Michael Jackson, and then getting mad when the Eminem fan website you visited has Michael Jackson talk relegated to the 'Offtopic' forum...

This is NOT a Robotech site. It's a Macross fan site.

That said - if you're in to Mecha - I highly recomend you check out Mr. March's Mecha website (can't remember the url now...) - it has a fantastic amount of Mecha from all of the various Macross series.

If you'd like to discuss Macross TV or Movies - then we've got lots and lots of threads for that.

If, however, you want to discuss Robotech... fire away in THIS thread.

Heck - only a couple pages ago in this thread, before you came around, we were all getting a bit more into depth with regard to the Robotech Novels.

Granted -we were making fun of the content - but if you've got some serious, good points to be made about the stories and why they're cool - or if you have questions about Robotech mecha... ask away.

But getting mad at us for not liking Robotech is kind of beside the point

It's a Macross fan site.

The two shows are totally different.

Pete

Edited October 22, 2009 by VFTF1

[anime52k8]

Why should we Robotech fans NOT be upset when you make broadly overbearing slams like the above against us?

Because he's making a valid point, and you as a Robotech fan need to accept the fact that he's right, and that you're cartoon of choice is an anachronism with no future. The sooner you except that, the sooner you can get on with your life.

It's nothing to be ashamed of, this kind of thing happens to a lot of people, Just look at how many people actually thought HD DVD's where going to be a viable format.

[Einherjar]

None of which I deny. Yet it is the "Macross fans" that are constantly making disparaging remarks NOT about HG's business practices, but about Robotech itself, and the fans thereof (as in the post I just responded to prior to this one). Are Robotech fans supposed to STOP being fans because HG's business office is staffed by jerks and a-holes?

Being fair here, I remember "Robotech fans" always doing the same to Macross and fans thereof. It's not a one sided conflict. It will probably go on as long as Robotech is leeching off the success of the other while Macross moves on while under unfair restrictions.

Why should you even care about any of our opinions? You have a franchise that is freely available everywhere in the world in various media except in Japan. You also have a company behind it that is free to prominently fluff their side of the story blocking the original from conflicting with it. That's luxurious compared to our situation. Just buy to your hearts content and tell all of us to STFU, because you probably won't be satisfied by the answers you're trying to find here (in this thread at least).

Macross and Robotech are not the same anymore. HG just bought pre-made animation. If it was, you wouldn't see a Macross Plus, Macross 7, Macross Zero, Macross Frontier.

[EXO]

I love robotech... hell I even love all the matchbox stuff that people hate here. I don't think there ever been a better Glaug Toy produced, I mean... ummm... Khyron's Battlepod. I'm even a card carrying member from when you can send in those coupons when you bought a robotech toy. huzzah! AND I have all 3 Robotech Art books plus all the novels (which were awful)

[Seto Kaiba]

I have repeatedly said you have the right to your own opinion. That does not prevent me from disagreeing with it, nor from calling you on being excessively rude and condescending to someone of differing opinion.

You say one thing, then you reverse yourself by painting any opinion you don't like as "rude and condescending".

Show me where I've said that.

How many times have you told us now that we should limit our criticisms only to Harmony Gold's business ethics, and not criticize their "creative" staff, Robotech itself, and the fans? It's gotta be at least half a dozen.

People's Exhibit #3. I could as easily say that Macek (sp?) took three subpar anime shows and turned them into an interesting and powerful story that made the originals look like the writings of a two-year old. You would probably be upset with me if I did. Why should we Robotech fans NOT be upset when you make broadly overbearing slams like the above against us?

You wouldn't have any factual grounds to do so... I, on the other hand, have a strong factual basis for saying that there is precious little originality in the "original 85", and can easily point out where and how elements of Sentinels were shamelessly pilfered for reuse in Shadow Chronicles. What you're interpreting as spite and bile is in fact my opinion based on a solid footing of hard evidence.

I came here looking for information and hopefully some interesting and informative debate on certain issues (as something of a "gear head", I have a great interest in the "tech" in the fictional universe).

Probably not the best fit coming here then, have you tried MechaTalk? That might be a little more your speed.

Instead I find all mention of Robotech confined to one thread that is primarily a forum to relentlessly BASH the show, and it's producers (creatively), and it's fans. I find that sad.

What did you expect? This isn't a Robotech fansite. Why would you come to a site devoted to a show that has be seen in fansubs because Harmony Gold can't stand the thought of actual competition expecting to find Robotech being held in high regard? Are you familiar with an old robot saying... "Does not compute"?

Because he's making a valid point, and you as a Robotech fan need to accept the fact that he's right, and that you're cartoon of choice is an anachronism with no future. The sooner you except that, the sooner you can get on with your life.

It's nothing to be ashamed of, this kind of thing happens to a lot of people, Just look at how many people actually thought HD DVD's where going to be a viable format.

Thank you.

Mind you - by "show me" I don't mean write one sentence that says "Robotech is cool" - I mean go episode by episode - write an essay with meaty arguments - reference the Robotech novels. Compare it to the Macross shows and OVAs - and take it apart - and demonstrate why Robotech is so awesome.

So far NOBODY has even ATTEMPTED to do it.

Really, I don't think you're ever going to find takers... I've extended this same challenge to many fans over the last six years, and I've never once had someone produce an answer that didn't boil down to either nostalgia or ignorance of what else was out there in the anime industry.

I love robotech... hell I even love all the matchbox stuff that people hate here. I don't think there ever been a better Glaug Toy produced, I mean... ummm... Khyron's Battlepod. I'm even a card carrying member from when you can send in those coupons when you bought a robotech toy. huzzah! AND I have all 3 Robotech Art books plus all the novels (which were awful)

I can honestly say that I used to love Robotech. I have all three Robotech Art books, the Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles book, most of the old comics, all of the McKinney novels, and every animated feature except the Robotech 3000 trailer. It was great so long as I was ignorant of what else was out there in the industry. Once I took a long, hard look at what Robotech really was... all the magic went out of it. It was a case of the editor taking credit for the author's hard work... a hasty collection of rewrites and recycled ideas passed off as something new... the anime industry's equivalent of a blacksploitation film.

Lately, the increasingly asinine behavior of the people I once called my fellow Robotech fans, and the determined censorship and lackluster offerings of Harmony Gold has gone a not-inconsiderable distance towards eroding what little affection I still have for Robotech. I respect the show for the role it played in introducing anime to the west, and for introducing me to Macross, but I have no love left for Robotech and its "creators".

Edited October 22, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[Capt Christopher Donovan]

On what grounds are you claiming that the criticism is undeserved?

As I have said many times before, there's plenty of things objectionable about Harmony Gold's business practices and the way they treat the fans of their products. We really can't hold the fans blameless, because they're WILLINGLY supporting their abusers by continuing to buy their products. There's more than a few things to criticize about the products (including the animation), both from a quality standpoint and an artistic standpoint. Can we really hold up Robotech as being an artistically sound work when it's nothing more than a hastily-assembled, completely unoriginal product made by combining three unrelated shows using a highly unfaithful dub? Can we honestly say Shadow Chronicles is an original work when it's nothing more than a low-budget fan-wank made from set pieces pilfered from a previous, failed project?

Should a woman who's in love with her boyfriend stay with him even if he hits her, lies to her, and makes promises he can't keep?

So now it's not an STD, it's domestic violence to like Robotech?

Sereously...you need to cut down on the caffine.

I just ran this by a friend on IM, and here's what he had to say:

Perhaps this board should bear in mind that many of its [Western] fans likely came to Macross FIRST through Robotech. The girlfriend analogy is facetious, in that many Robotech fans first came to the saga without this knowledge. So, no, they are not like said girlfriend, because they are not aware of the lies told by Harmony Gold.

And likewise, by disparaging those fans, they run the risk of alienating them further from their cause, and sending otherwise potential allies running further into Harmony Gold's clutches, since at least there, they are treated with the appearance of respect and welcome

You don't win converts by telling them they suck for things they liely didnt' know

"You suck because you like the product of people who suck, whether you knew it or not!"

and he's absolutely right. How many Western viewers did Robotech BRING to anime? OR Voltron? Or Battle of the Planets? The original material you so love would be to Western audiences just another "Japanese anime thing" without the recognition "Westernized" anime brought to the table.

I pointed out to my friend that doesn't even take into consideration your OPINION that the original Robotech material is without merit, to which he replied:

Granted, I don't enjoy Robotech so much myself, but disparaging people who DO enjoy the story displays a certain lack of class and a great deal of insecurity in one's own position.

[VFTF1]

I have the Art 3 book about Sentinels as well. I played and enjoyed the Palladium RPG. I have three novels out of which I think Master's Gambit is boring, Planet Killers is crap and Zendradi Rebellion is a good story. Any Robotech fans who wish to go deeper into these three novels - I'll be happy to pick them apart for you.

In brief:

Master's Gambit: The computer hackers part of the book takes up way to much time and is just too much of a diversion for my liking. I kind of try to appreciate what they're doing there, diversifying the plot, focusing on technology without necessarily focusing just on big mecha kicking the crap out of eachother - but the characters seem dry, and I was expecting more about the Robotech Masters and less about the hackers. The book just put me to sleep. No - I didn't finish it.

Planet Killers: This book was so bad, that I couldn't stop reading. It was like watching Borat - it's so juvenille and ridiculous but at the same time compelling. The battles scenes were like something dreamed up by a three year old playing with his Transformers on his bed. The dialogue between the characters was like something out of a He-Man movie. There were way to many images of people living like in Super Mario Bros. 2, floating on rugs and stuff. Crystal meth, and those horrible horrible "pussy cat" dialogues between Rick and Lisa while in battle on a giant space ship. P-yu.

Zendradi Rebellion: Maybe I liked it so much because it was like a "third" season of the original Macross saga, which is the only part of Robotech I consider worth any good anyways (although totally deficient compared to Macross because it replaces a wonderful story about love and music conquering war making with a craptastic tale about a super galactic flower that gets people high) - anyways - I liked how Lyn Minmey bacame a tool of the government and was totally consumed in a bad way by her new life. I also liked the Zendradi rebells and how there was rebellion brewing against the RDF - and all the political dialogues were fairly well written IMO.

There - that's just a taste of my commentary on Robotech.

I also piloted a MK II Monster when playing the RPG when I was 7.

I acknowledge the important role Robotech played in being a primer on Japanese anime in the Western world in an age before the internet.

Now...

Is there anything you want to discuss about Robotech or do you have questions about Macross or are we going to start a revolution in hopes that Graham will read your highly persuasive posts and change the name of this place to RobotechAndMacrossAreFriendsWorld and we can all smoke some Protoculture joints while listening to We Will Win? and watching Shadow Chronicles on Hulu?

Pete

[EXO]

So now it's not an STD, it's domestic violence to like Robotech?

and he's absolutely right. How many Western viewers did Robotech BRING to anime? OR Voltron? Or Battle of the Planets? The original material you so love would be to Western audiences just another "Japanese anime thing" without the recognition "Westernized" anime brought to the table.

And how much faster would anime have been a respected art and not some kiddified Saturday Morning cartoon type if it had been brought in correctly? Anime was a bigger boom in the 90s when they finally started importing it correctly and not some niche ultra geek product like it was in the 80s and prior.

"Disparaging" was probably how you presented it to your "friend."

[EXO]

Macrossworld members are not really worried about Robotech fans running back to HG's clutches... you'll find that were the most apathetic bunch...

You know why??? Because we've got the bombs! That's why!

Kawamori! check!

Mikimoto! check!

Yoko Kanno! double check!

Young Mari Iijima! Check!

Old Mifly Mari iijima! ...not so much...

[Capt Christopher Donovan]

You wouldn't have any factual grounds to do so... I, on the other hand, have a strong factual basis for saying that there is precious little originality in the "original 85", and can easily point out where and how elements of Sentinels were shamelessly pilfered for reuse in Shadow Chronicles. What you're interpreting as spite and bile is in fact my opinion based on a solid footing of hard evidence.

I was just going to go my own way when I saw this part and had to respond.

1) It's called "adaptation", and it's done all the time in tv/cinema. I think it took a great deal of creatvity to take 3 unrelated anime shows and craft them into ONE multi-generational epic that holds up pretty darn well, thank you very much.

2) "Shamelessly pilfered for reuse"? You do realize, that as a continuation of the Robotech story, it would by necessity make use of that which came before it. TNG built on TOS Trek and it's films. DS9 built on both TOS and TNG, and Voyager built on all of the above. We're they "shamelessly pilfering? Were they "fanwank"?

Over and done...

[Seto Kaiba]

So now it's not an STD, it's domestic violence to like Robotech?

If you don't like that analogy, I'm sure I can work a holocaust joke in there somehow.

I just ran this by a friend on IM, and here's what he had to say:

You ran your heavily biased side of things by a friend on IM... and what he offered in return was a response that reflected only the biased information you offered him.

Is there anything you want to discuss about Robotech or do you have questions about Macross or are we going to start a revolution in hopes that Graham will read your highly persuasive posts and change the name of this place to RobotechAndMacrossAreFriendsWorld and we can all smoke some Protoculture joints while listening to We Will Win? and watching Shadow Chronicles on Hulu?

Wait, so you can smoke it now too? Damn... it's a power source, chemical catalyst, explosive, medium for high-level genetic engineering, you can get high and mutate from eating it or inhaling its spores, and now you can smoke it too? Is there anything that stuff CAN'T do?

I wonder if I can clean my oven with it.

Edited October 22, 2009 by Seto Kaiba