HG and Robotech Debates

[HappyPenguins]

This is insane. You and others have been lambasted by "influential" Robotech fans as closet "Macross Purists" and "Robotech Haters" (which I know you're not, because, being a Macross Purist myself, I can easily tell who is and who isn't. ), and yet...it seems like you guys are actually shaking up the Robotech fandom in a POSITIVE way.

What Khyron Prime said couldn't be accomplished through words, but other through confectionary IS NOW BEING ACCOMPLISHED...through words.

As I've said before, a Robotech revival is not high on my list of Things I Want to See, but still...bravo. Rock on with your bad selves.

Yeah it is insane, the reason we first went on his show was when he discovered JT's podcast and was pretty much bashing him. Then when we showed up, we ended up having serious discussions about the state of the robotech fandom and whatnot, and doug bendo was actually very civil. I shat brix I couldn't believe it. I think the tone of his show has changed because he's never had anyone willing to come on and actually talk to him about robotech, which is probably why his podcasts before that were nothing but mindless dribble and all out ranting.

Its also got to do with the fact that we actually share a lot of the same views as him, especially with all the recent BS going on in the robotech fandom like the censorship and holy HG brigade for example.

I don't really know a whole lot about the khyron prime issue or what he said, all I've heard is he pied Tommy Yune in the face

But if he did state that this sorta thing couldn't be accomplished through words, then he was wrong.

I suppose it just takes the right words and the right people to do it, but either way it is a start.

yay go us!

It won't last... just like his pretense of civility on RobotechX.

As soon as he doesn't get his way, or someone says something he doesn't like, he flies off the handle and starts in with the name-calling, the slander, the racial and ethnic slurs... all the hallmarks of typical dougbendo behavior. Just look at how he acts on RobotechX. Whenever someone criticizes his podcast, or expresses a viewpoint that Robotech is anything other than practically perfect in every way, he immediately goes on the offensive. He tried to invite me onto that obnoxious podcast of his, and when I told him I wasn't interested because I didn't think he was capable of keeping things civil, he immediately proved me right by jumping in with the insults, telling me I was full of bullshit and didn't know anything about Robotech or Macross, and trying to goad me into it by saying I was afraid to face him.

Mark my words, this "quality" in Bendo's podcast will not last. It's a brief lull in the hurricane of stupidity brought about by people whose brains are in the right way 'round getting involved. As soon as they stop contributing, he'll be right back to badmouthing us all and shouting about how he's gonna beat his girlfriend and then piss on her.

I don't know if it will last or not, but if it doesn't then oh well, we tried eh?

I sure hope it does last.... hes actually a decent guy to talk to

would be a shame if that were all a waste

Edited October 14, 2009 by HappyPenguins

[Einherjar]

I don't really know a whole lot about the khyron prime issue or what he said, all I've heard is he pied Tommy Yune in the face

But if he did state that this sorta thing couldn't be accomplished through words, then he was wrong.

I suppose it just takes the right words and the right people to do it, but either way it is a start.

http://www.geocities.com/robotechthreethou...revolution.html

Hopefully you're proving this guy wrong.

[HappyPenguins]

http://www.geocities.com/robotechthreethou...revolution.html

Hopefully you're proving this guy wrong.

ah, that site again.. yikes

Well now I know for a fact that we are proving him wrong

I don't know what point he was even trying to prove by making that

web page. Seems to me he just couldn't handle the fact that robotech

is not perfect, nor is it worth defending. And in all honesty, I don't see why

some robotech fans harbor such hatred against macross fans, in fact

from my point of view, macross fans are more sane and tolerable compared to your

average robotech fanatics.

And speaking of robotech fanatics.. they might want to nail me to a cross for this one but...

I find the robotech bashing entertaining and funny.

But that's right I'm not a true fan, I'm just a PAHG as memo puts it.

[Jasonc]

And to see if there are any bees in this old hive of who owns what,I will mention that Harmony Gold owns Robotech and if you watched the New Generation Scott used the word Zentradi when he said something like "Invid should go out the way the Zentradi did" and since Shadow Chronicles is canon from New Generation then Maia could have said "I am half Zentradi" but that did not fit the moment because she was proving a point when Marcus wanted all aliens dead.

And I mentioned so many times where they used:

Skull emblem

Fold systems

Protoculture

And yet macross purists still deny Robotech never used macross elements.

Something I picked up from your friend PTH, Seto.

Does this guy know when Robotech was first made??? This guy makes me laugh. I mean c'mon. Here's a true bottom feeder that is trying to have a $.25 conversation with a $0.05 brain. It was specifically said to me, along with several others, that the word Zentraedi was left out of the dialogue of Shadow Chronicles because the legal team was scared to use it. They felt they didn't have the rights to use the term, and it was omitted. I love how this guy with no clue pretends to understand things. Using the word Zentraedi didn't "fit the momen"? WTF are you talking about, and who gave you that excuse to fuel your flawed P.O.V. Talk about fan speculation. I see he's not banned for his fan speculation, as long as it fits the fans with no brain for themselves. I love the responses regarding the post afterwards that try to educate the ignorant on intellectual property vs. common terms and symbols. Space fold is a scientific term. The Jolly Roger is a common symbol signifying pirates, the jolly rogers, and in other places. Protoculture is a scientific term as well. I also saw how you now get banned on rt.com by the mods if you don't believe as they do. If you don't, you are now guilty of "fan speculation" which is now a bannable offense. But if you speculate on the side of HG, then it's fact? Ugh, it's sad to think that some of the people who used to have things all together and be fun to hang around have resorted to driving away and splitting the fandom. I've never seen such a split in the fandom over there as before, and while I think it's cool to see some strictly rt.com people now on here, it's a bad sign that things are going awry.

I'd love for there to be a nice balance between the 2 (probably now 3) camps. There's the Macross fans, the Robotech fans, and the Robotech extremists. The Robotech extremists hate the Macross fans, macross fans can't stand the Robotech extremists, and the Robotech fans are stuck, sometimes not being liked by both, or being tolerated by both. I would say it'd be wise for HG to express what rights they do have without the confusing sales pitch lines like "we own all of Robotech" and just state what they can/can't use, and whatnot. But I honestly think they like the division in their camps, and they like the fact that they think it gives them so much publicity. Hmmm, I think HG, and the way the moderators have been acting, are bringing more fans over into the original series and away from their B.S.

[VFTF1]

And to see if there are any bees in this old hive of who owns what,I will mention that Harmony Gold owns Robotech and if you watched the New Generation Scott used the word Zentradi when he said something like "Invid should go out the way the Zentradi did" and since Shadow Chronicles is canon from New Generation then Maia could have said "I am half Zentradi" but that did not fit the moment because she was proving a point when Marcus wanted all aliens dead.

And I mentioned so many times where they used:

Skull emblem

Fold systems

Protoculture

And yet macross purists still deny Robotech never used macross elements.

You know what's REALLY wrong with this argument?

It's NOT whether or not they used words, whether or not they own the words of have the right to use them and whether or not "Robotech ever used Macross elements" (who ever denied that? Robotech uses 3-frickin-6 episodes of 'Macross elements' for cryn' out loud)...

No. None of that is wrong.

What IS wrong is:

WHO CARES!?

This is totally totally beyond the point - and the point is the STORY and the CHARACTERS and the MUSIC and the MECHA and the PLOT.

And I'd really like to find a Robotech site where there is cogent discussion and passion for THOSE THINGS instead of constant attempts to prove that HG owns something or other.

Heck - Robotech has tons of novels. Does ANYBODY even read those? Discuss them? There is rich material in those novels - I would presume that the Robotech fandom would be all over them. That there would be dedicated threads not just to seperate novels, but chapters even.

WHERE is the discussion of how cool the show is? Of how cool the toys are?

See - this is what I'm missing and not understanding.

"Robotech fandom" seems to pretty much mean "knowledgeable about HG and their legal rights" and NOT "in love with Robotech."

Again - if I'm wrong - I'll gladly be proven wrong. Just point me to a link that takes me to a place where Robotech fans are engaged in interesting commentary about the SHOW or the BOOKS or the TOYS so I can finally figure out why this fandom even exists - because for the life of me I CAN'T.

I mean - are there REALLY people out there who would put "We will win" on their MP3 instead of Ai oboeteimasuka?

Pete

[nanoplasm]

I mean - are there REALLY people out there who would put "We will win" on their MP3 instead of Ai oboeteimasuka?

Pete

Yes, or at least something equivalent. When my EX from college got married, her husband's bestman played "We will win" during the reception.

[VFTF1]

Yes, or at least something equivalent. When my EX from college got married, her husband's bestman played "We will win" during the reception

But maybe that's because he didn't know any better?

Maybe I should restate the question:

Are there really people who, after having seen Macross (both SDFM and later series/OVAs) as well as having seen original Mospedia and Southern Cross, who STILL prefer Robotech as anything beyond either a nostalgic experience or a historical curiosity?

Then again...

I guess I shouldn't be too surprised... I'm not going to say people like that are 'wierd' because I get that accusation all the time for what I like.

It's just... well...hm. Playing We Will Win during a wedding... hm....

Well - to each his own I guess

But I'd still like someone to explain to me what they like about the song... I find it to be totally wrong headed - I mean, beyond the fact that it's just bad singing and bad music, it's also bad plot because -

a) What kind of psychological attack is it to sing at your enemy that THEY WILL LOOSE - because effectively that's what happens. Minmey, by singing "we will win" motivates the RDF, but ...demotivates the Zendradi?

b) And if the song is supposed to motivate the RDF and demotivate the Zendradi (because I can't see how the song is meant to motivate Zendradi...technically you could say that Bretai's forces which join the RDF are being motivated by it... but in Macross the song was supposed to bring culture shock to those soldiers of Boldoza's forces that were in the majority - not motivate Zendradi who had already been returned to Culture through a long exposure to Minmey/The Macross...

I dunno...

Pete

[Gubaba]

I'd love for there to be a nice balance between the 2 (probably now 3) camps. There's the Macross fans, the Robotech fans, and the Robotech extremists. The Robotech extremists hate the Macross fans, macross fans can't stand the Robotech extremists, and the Robotech fans are stuck, sometimes not being liked by both, or being tolerated by both. I would say it'd be wise for HG to express what rights they do have without the confusing sales pitch lines like "we own all of Robotech" and just state what they can/can't use, and whatnot. But I honestly think they like the division in their camps, and they like the fact that they think it gives them so much publicity. Hmmm, I think HG, and the way the moderators have been acting, are bringing more fans over into the original series and away from their B.S.

To be fair, there are Macross extremists, too. Check out JamesBond77 on youtube sometime...he's monumentously obnoxious, and makes all of us look bad.

[Jasonc]

To be fair, there are Macross extremists, too. Check out JamesBond77 on youtube sometime...he's monumentously obnoxious, and makes all of us look bad.

Oh yeah, definitely can't forget those tools as well. The difference though, is that the Macross Extremists that are out there who are the bad apples are not in positions where they ban people for difference in opinion, where your so-called fan speculation is another mans truth. They are mostly outcasts, rogue, or simply just tools on their own, and most of us here on these boards pay them no mind. For HG and the extremists, it's celebrated when you're obnoxious, and being the same sort of tool. And, I can see why good people like JT, Whamhammer, and Happy Penguins now come here to discuss it.

Back in the day, I used to throw these huge "Robotech" BBQ parties at my house. They were a way to celebrate the group and the fans all being friends and getting together. what really made those stop after about 4 years was the fact that it became more of an HG presentation, where they wanted to do slideshows, and talk about their demographics of the 80s. I don't even remember the parties really being too much about Robotech, but just hanging out with good friends. As Shadow Chronicles came out, it became more and more apparent (already was to a few of us) that there was a serious mis-management at HG, and that it was starting to stir up trouble amongst the fans. I stopped being an indirect marketing tool for them, and when all the get togethers ceased from me and a few others like Razorx here, the fandom really warped into what it is now. People we used to call friennds are now some of these extremists, who claim to be these "Robotech Purists." That's an oxymoron (spelling) if I've ever heard one. Then, things are supposed to simply fall back into place as if all the world is right, simply because a LAM is coming out? If the fandom and the staff aren't careful, they're just gonna have a bunch of people who have no real clue about the meat and potatoes of the show, but only about legal mess, and they'll debate all the technical stuff that has no real meaning to what made the show good.

As Pete has pointed out, for their 25th anniversary, you don't see hardly anything celebrated, just a massive debate on who's right and wrong. At times I wish it could still be the same over at the camp there, when there were good discussions, and exciting things to talk about. It seems now more of a pissing contest on who can do the most damage. Any sense of a deep conversation is quickly flushed out with argument and someone getting banned. Really a sad state, but this is what they want, what they chose for themselves.

Discussing licensing and debate it here is one thing. This is an isolated topic that stays here for the most part. It's not a pandemic that is feasting on every member. To see the debate still loom over again over there is just more reason to stay away. One noobie started the other thread, and instead of tactfully shutting it down, mods are at it again, banning people for having a different view of the facts than what they believe (turns out the person was banned for giving a pretty accurate statement as well), and basically keeping the perpetual ball of crap rolling. The staff over there really need to get mods with screws on right, cause as of now, it seems their mods are helping to generate not only a rift between their own fandom, but more enemies over here.

[Whamhammer]

I'm with UN Marine.

I authentically want to know what people see in Robotech that makes them stick to it. The only things I could concievably come up with are the RPGs which I thought were very, very cool - but really, the RPG could just as well have been called 'Macross' since most of the time you could play without knowing a thing about the show, the plot of the show etc etc (which is how I played it when I was a kid). I understand the whole "Robotech made a contribution to bringing anime to America" but dung-houses were a big advancement over taking a sh!t in the grass next to your hut, but you don't see people refusing modern toilets because dung-houses (wooden shack built over deep hole where you sh!t could fall) were a historical milestone in feaces disposal.

As to the "I like apples, you like oranges" (value relativism) point - yes. Of course. You're right. But you're only right as a matter of pure praxeology. However, just because we ought to tolerate one another's preferences doesn't mean we can't discuss them critically, and it also doesn't mean that all values are merely subjective in a pure sense. We make choices based on our thinking and feeling about something, and we take into account outside factors.

Now - I'm not saying that there's a "right" choice here - I'm not saying Robotech fans are somehow "obliged" to "justify" their hobby or switch to Macross. All I'm saying is - I just wonder what people like about it. I wonder whether people can give some coherent arguments for it - can give reasons why it is interesting and, more importantly, why it is more interesting than Macross - interesting enough that you'd rather follow it than Macross, or that you can follow both etc.

Final point - since nobody is advocating the oppression of Robotech fans or the forced conversion of Robotech fans to Macross, I see not reason to bring up the "values" argument since nobody is questioning Robotech fans right to hold their values for their own reasons. In fact, I usually find that when someone can't give any reasons, he resorts to the "everyone has subjective values" argument, as if opinions are all just random and people have no reason for holding them.

I for one try to think about what is most enjoyable and I am happy when other people give thoughtful reasons for why they enjoy what they enjoy, because it helps me learn from them.

So...again I ask the question: why do people like Robotech? What's so compelling about the story, characters, plot etc that people call themselves Robotech fans?

Pete

Im a Robotech Fan. I did watch is when I was younger . I still watch it and enjoy it. I like the sagas progression from the Robotech Masters to New Generation stoylines (and I later saw the "Macross" portion ) being tied together as one story. I like the "narrator" aspect and think it works well. I like the "history" brought about of tying the three sagas together. I like the fact that it gave me an alternative to the status quo of cartoons of the time. I believe that the original Macross would never have been picked up for t.v. airing in my area as it was. As far as future Robotech projects, I'd be more than happy to see any future projects without direct ties to "Macross" . I think it doesnt have a place in the future.

I also dont think all rods lead to Macross for a Robotech fan. In the past I've seen some of the Macross continuations and was never compelled to try to buy them. I am interested in Zero, I like some of the scenes put to video on you tube (especially the Ramstien one). I've moved on to Bubblegum Crisis (I didnt like 2040), Hellsing , and Slayers to name a few. I'm sure I'm not the only one out there.

As far as what you call a Macross purist, Id call that a fan. I've seen groups on the Macross community who are venomus and full of contempt to those who like Robotech. Id call the more venomous crowd purists , theyre closeto what you describe a H.G. fundamentalist. I also think the Robotech Fans base schism has already occurred by the way H.G. has treated its base,of which I am an example.

[Whamhammer]

Here’s some thought provoking reasoning for conversation; how can someone truly enjoy something when its success, ongoing success, or the owner’s insistence of its focus for continued success comes at the expense of something and someone else? In this case, Macross and a little bit of Mechwarrior.

I wonder about things like that too.

Mechwarrior doesnt need that little part. It did fine in the previous games since MW:II . That couldve been a Templar or Black Knight for all it mattered in place of a Warhammer and it wouldve been just as good.

[Whamhammer]

This is simple.

There are only three possible paths that this will all take:

1. HG becoms sane, stops banning people for having opinions or liking Yamatos and Macross and instead gets to work on great merchandise and a great show and tries to EARN their fans trust and money instead of using CR law and TOU to try to twist peoples arms.

2. The fandom splits into TWO DISTINCT FRONTS:

A) Harmony Gold Fundamentalists

B) Robotech Lovers

The difference? Robotech lovers just love Robotech, they can't be assed about the legal mumbo jumbo, and they have no patience for flame wars. All they want to do is enjoy Robotech openly and without Big H sitting over their shoulder to make sure what they type is "appropriate." These people will have their own websites, their own forums, their own podcasts, their own online fanzines and rpgs and will just live in their own little world free of Harmony Gold.

Meanwhile, Harmony Gold Fundamentalists will sit on RT.com and look for people to ban.

3) More and more Robotech fans begin to interact with Macross fans whether here on MW.com or in general. Because MW.com does not ban Robotech nor does it actively flame or discourage Robotech, and because the "no Robotech" rule on MW is not a general commandment, but rather a reminder that when we discuss Hikaru Ichijo, we really want to discuss Hikaru Ichijo and not Rick Hunter, and because MW has THIS thread for people who might want to discuss Rick Hunter and there is open debate here - more and more Robotech fans will see that "Macross Purists" are not people who would necessarily BAN you for saying "I like Robotech."

See - to put it in religious terms - HG Fundies are like people whose faith commands them to beat the sh!t out of other people. Macross Purists are people whose faith commands them to love Macross and SHARE that love - not force it, not flame it, not compell it - but just share it. And in this sense, Macross Purists have no problem not just talking to RT lovers, but even going to sleep KNOWING that the RT lover...still...loves..Robotech (gasp!)

And if this third scenario takes place- you wanna know what I think will happen?

I think more and more Robotech lovers will become Macross purists.

Yep.

Not because they will be forced, not because they'll be convinced by Gubaba or me or other Macross Purists - but simply because while they hang out here and start to check out other threads, they will discover the world of the original Macross for themselves and come to love it.

That's how much I believe in the power of Macross

Macross does not need copy right laws and terms of use and C&D orders to survive.

All it needs to do is be as good as it has been - and that'll draw people in.

Harmony Gold and RT.com are sinking ships.

Even Memo will eventually be turned to Macross Purism.

It is inevitable.

Pete

I disagree on the Macross Purist point. I think your definition is closer to what a Macross Fan would be. I'd call a Purist to Macross being akin to what you define as a Harmony Gold Fundamentalist for Robotech.

As you could figure by what I've said in the past, I would go with being a "Robotech Lover". I watched it as a younger self and enjoyed the storylines being tied together and the progession from Robotech Masters to The New Generation (and later seeing the tie in with the first "Macross" segment as well) and still like watching it. I like the use of the "narrator" , its an interesting way to move a story forward in this case.

I'm not anchored to directly having "Macross" in any further projects , and actually dont want to see "Macross" in any further projects.

I also dont think all roads lead to Macross for the Robotech fan. I've seen some of the Macross products via friends in the past and havent felt compelled to buy any of them. I still havent seen Zero and that does interest me from what Ive seen from the You Tube videos of its scenes put to music (I particullarly like the Ramstien video). I've moved on to Bubblegum Crisis (didnt like 2040), Hellsing, and Slayers as an example. I'm sure I can't be the only one out there that feels this way.

[Jasonc]

See, and I think it's fine to be a Robotech fan, and enjoy it for the story it is. I think that since Macrossworld has a lot to do with Mospeada as well, I find nothing wrong with fans who just appreciate the mecha and designs coming here to talk and look at the site. We wouldn't be any better of a site here if we did the same things that rt.com does in ostrisizing fans who don't think the same, or like Macross only. While there is an occasional backlash from some idiot on the boards here from time to time, simply being able to appreciate what you like and having a place to do so should be simple and fun. When it stops being fun, open all the exit doors.

Wham, I think it's just fine that you're a Robotech fan. If you didn't have any interest in Macross (which I know you have some), although I'd find it a little odd, it'd still be alright if you were here. There's people that I only see on this thread, and some that I only see on Mospeada discussions, so that's OK. It's a good thing to see people here have the diversity that they have, yet coexist in one virtual space. It was one reason why as a mod on rt.com, I tried not to go into the Macross/southern cross/Mospeada forums too often. There's way too much judgement on those boards, and it seems like just posting in there about nothing slanderous can lable you. I hope you don't think that you have to defend your fandom here. While you've already gotten questions about why and so-on, you have to understand that people here can be cautious and need to test the waters when it comes to new people. There's been some bad fish out there from rt.com, and from I believe the Transformers sites that have come in running a muck.

[Rabidweezil]

I wonder if this phantom License that HG owns applies to Macross series like 7 or Frontier.

Would anyone be able to stop Yamato from releasing their Macross 7 figures or Bandai selling any Frontier in the US?

I can't imagine HG is holding something that never expires, and applies to all things Macross to EVER be released. If so, whatever lawyer agreed to that obviously was very new at his job.

[Funkenstein]

Well, I think its been mentioned that HG has merchandise rights to only SDF Macross and DYRL Macross. All the other properties are derivatives and arent covered in the original contract. As for Yamato bringing their full line to international markets, HG has the trademark for Macross so Yamato would have to rename the entire line. They may also be restricted to only selling toys from the new shows and not from SDF Macross.Im not sure what the difference between merchandise based on designs and merchandise based on animation differs.

[VF5SS]

See, and I think it's fine to be a Robotech fan, and enjoy it for the story it is.

No its not. It's stupid and childish. Fly through all the nostalgic loops you want, there's just no reason to watch Robotech anymore. All the peripheral material doesn't matter either. Just stop supporting Robotech. If you love it so much, let it die.

[azrael]

...

You probably don't visit this thread much so I'll humor you.

I wonder if this phantom License that HG owns applies to Macross series like 7 or Frontier.

Unfortunately, it's not a "phantom license". Unless you want to file a lawsuit against them, they are not obligated to show you any contract. But it doesn't affect 7 or Frontier since those shows are not in their license.

Would anyone be able to stop Yamato from releasing their Macross 7 figures or Bandai selling any Frontier in the US?

As stated, no. But they would have to change all the symbols and change the name to something other than "Macross" to get it released. Good luck with that.

I can't imagine HG is holding something that never expires, and applies to all things Macross to EVER be released. If so, whatever lawyer agreed to that obviously was very new at his job.

Licenses can be renewed, which it probably was with Tatsunoko. Trademarks last 10 years, but an "affidavit of use" and fee must be filed between the 5th to 6th year of that 10-year period followed by a renewal affidavit and fee to renew for another 10 years. Wash-Rinse-Repeat. Which HG probably has already done with the "Macross" trademark. So it's not a newbie problem. That's just how it works.

[Einherjar]

Licenses can be renewed, which it probably was with Tatsunoko. Trademarks last 10 years, but an "affidavit of use" and fee must be filed between the 5th to 6th year of that 10-year period followed by a renewal affidavit and fee to renew for another 10 years. Wash-Rinse-Repeat. Which HG probably has already done with the "Macross" trademark. So it's not a newbie problem. That's just how it works.

And look at all the progress they've made by maintaining the trademark.

[azrael]

And look at all the progress they've made by maintaining the trademark.

Yeah..."Stealth" VF-1 Veritech.

[MastaEgg]

Is it even normal for an oversees distributor to trademark a property that they were licensed?

[Rabidweezil]

You probably don't visit this thread much so I'll humor you.

Unfortunately, it's not a "phantom license". Unless you want to file a lawsuit against them, they are not obligated to show you any contract. But it doesn't affect 7 or Frontier since those shows are not in their license.

As stated, no. But they would have to change all the symbols and change the name to something other than "Macross" to get it released. Good luck with that.

Licenses can be renewed, which it probably was with Tatsunoko. Trademarks last 10 years, but an "affidavit of use" and fee must be filed between the 5th to 6th year of that 10-year period followed by a renewal affidavit and fee to renew for another 10 years. Wash-Rinse-Repeat. Which HG probably has already done with the "Macross" trademark. So it's not a newbie problem. That's just how it works.

Actually I visit this thread somewhat often. But I hadn't read anything that gave me the answer I was after that was at least somewhat factual and not so much speculation.

I appreciate the sum up though. However, I still do not understand how HG has managed to retain a license from an agreement that was set forth what, 25 years ago? I thought companies at some point had to renegotiate terms every now and again. I didn't realize that they can just go fill out a document, pay a fee and it's theirs for another 10 years. Especially when they are not really doing anything with it in the first place. Other then blocking anyone else from making a profit that is. I guess since they can't seem to make money from Macross, no one should.

ADDED:

Does HG have to pay anyone royalities, like Big West, from any Macross mechandise or to they get all profits? If they have to pay royalities, you would think who ever they have to pay would give them the boot and actually get someone in there that would actually generate some cash off it.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Rabidweezil

[Moly_Sigang]

Well, I think its been mentioned that HG has merchandise rights to only SDF Macross and DYRL Macross. All the other properties are derivatives and arent covered in the original contract. As for Yamato bringing their full line to international markets, HG has the trademark for Macross so Yamato would have to rename the entire line. They may also be restricted to only selling toys from the new shows and not from SDF Macross.Im not sure what the difference between merchandise based on designs and merchandise based on animation differs.

This is what 'The Terrible Trio' (MEMO, Maverick, and Pizza) like to use in their arguments-'the contract'. To them, this 'contract' is an all encompassing ticket that grants HG everything that was in SDF Macross (the characters, mecha, etc..) And the funny thing about this is that they talk as if they know what is in the contract while openly admitting that no one has seen the contract except for those who work in HG. So how then are they so sure what was written in that contract if they haven't seen the contract itself?

[Lolicon]

This is what 'The Terrible Trio' (MEMO, Maverick, and Pizza) like to use in their arguments-'the contract'. To them, this 'contract' is an all encompassing ticket that grants HG everything that was in SDF Macross (the characters, mecha, etc..) And the funny thing about this is that they talk as if they know what is in the contract while openly admitting that no one has seen the contract except for those who work in HG. So how then are they so sure what was written in that contract if they haven't seen the contract itself?

The same way people are sure that Amelia Earhart was abducted by aliens. Or the famous Bigfoot footage is real (despite the person who filmed the footage recanting on his deathbed and admitting it was a hoax).

[azrael]

... However, I still do not understand how HG has managed to retain a license from an agreement that was set forth what, 25 years ago? I thought companies at some point had to renegotiate terms every now and again.

IIRC, they talked to Tatsunoko around 1998..1999.

Especially when they are not really doing anything with it in the first place. Other then blocking anyone else from making a profit that is.

They're making toys (that is, Toynami is making toys for them). So technically, they are doing something.

[Rabidweezil]

IIRC, they talked to Tatsunoko around 1998..1999.

Didn't Robotech come out in 1980 something? Wouldn't they have had to make an agreement before they actually released the show?

They're making toys (that is, Toynami is making toys for them). So technically, they are doing something.

eh? Oh yeah...the super-posables from like 7 years ago. The Masterpiece from around the same time and the 1/100's from the last couple of years.

It certainly would be hard for another company to compete against that catalog of products /sarcasm

[Gubaba]

Didn't Robotech come out in 1980 something? Wouldn't they have had to make an agreement before they actually released the show?

1985. And yes, they made a deal then. They renewed (or renegotiated, or something) the deal in '98 or '99. They'll probable have to do it again at some point.

Oh, and JasonC: I'm sure you've seen this, but apparently, Pizza the Hutt is accusing you of joining RT.com under a different name for the purpose of trolling. The boy doesn't have too good a grasp of history, does he?

Y'know, he once promised he would post here and let everyone know it was him. I wonder what happened to that promise...?

Edited October 14, 2009 by Gubaba

[Einherjar]

Don't forget the RPG books by Palladium, made for an even smaller group compared to the toys. Canon? Most likely not.

[Seto Kaiba]

To them, this 'contract' is an all encompassing ticket that grants HG everything that was in SDF Macross (the characters, mecha, etc..) And the funny thing about this is that they talk as if they know what is in the contract while openly admitting that no one has seen the contract except for those who work in HG. So how then are they so sure what was written in that contract if they haven't seen the contract itself?

Because to them, the actual content of Harmony Gold's license agreements with Tatsunoko don't matter nearly as much as maintaining the pretense that there might be some source that completely invalidates the mountains of hard evidence against what they're preaching. It's their general-purpose excuse for ignoring anything they don't like or agree with, trying to claim that "the contract" might invalidate or contradict the other evidence. Even explicit statements from Carl Macek himself, in their opinion, are invalid because "nobody" knows what that contract says.

It's all that keeps the Maverick, MEMO, and Pizza's faith-based argument going... that and the first two idiots using their mod powers to ban anyone who dares to bring evidence that proves them wrong.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[Gubaba]

Because to them, the actual content of Harmony Gold's license agreements with Tatsunoko don't matter nearly as much as maintaining the pretense that there might be some source that completely invalidates the mountains of hard evidence against what they're preaching. It's their general-purpose excuse for ignoring anything they don't like or agree with, trying to claim that "the contract" might invalidate or contradict the other evidence. Even explicit statements from Carl Macek himself, in their opinion, are invalid because "nobody" knows what that contract says.

It's all that keeps the Maverick, MEMO, and Pizza's faith-based argument going... that and the first two idiots using their mod powers to ban anyone who dares to bring evidence that proves them wrong.

So it really IS the same game that Shaloom was pulling over at Macross Generation...except there it was "nobody has ever make a list of all the Macross-related books in existence, and the original creators put a lot of their information in fanzines and doujinshi, so if you can't find any sources for my information, it's because they're super-rare and nobody has seen them except for me and some Japanese guys who forget they ever owned them."

Convenient.

[Seto Kaiba]

So it really IS the same game that Shaloom was pulling over at Macross Generation...

It's a similar scam, but not quite the same.

Shaloom's scam depended on the large number of Macross Frontier publications coming out in Japan, the inability of the few available translators to keep up with it all, and his staff position at Macross Generation to effectively camouflage the stuff that he made up himself. In the case of Maverick and MEMO, it's really more like a conspiracy theory than a scam, as they're relying on a document nobody has ever seen (and probably will never see) to overturn all of the hard evidence and vindicate their belief that Harmony Gold owns all the rights to Macross. It's also rather like a conspiracy theory in that the vast majority of people don't take their claims seriously. The only people who profess to believe them are the ones who either already believe as they do, or those who think they stand to gain something by playing along. Maverick and MEMO just have a minor advantage over normal conspiracy theorists, because they have the power to silence the logic-driven arguments of the opposition in certain venues.

There's no doubt that Maverick and MEMO both actually believe the nonsense they've been exploiting their mod status to preach on Robotech.com, but the more I read of his posts, the more I suspect that Pizza falls into the second category of believers... ones who only profess to believe because they think they stand to gain something from doing so. In Pizza's case, it's not hard to see what he's after... he's gotten himself unbanned and now enjoys relative immunity from moderator retribution by toadying up to Maverick and MEMO. Now he can troll the people he considers to not be "real fans" with impunity.

Edited October 15, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[Freiflug88]

Maybe I should restate the question:

Are there really people who, after having seen Macross (both SDFM and later series/OVAs) as well as having seen original Mospedia and Southern Cross, who STILL prefer Robotech as anything beyond either a nostalgic experience or a historical curiosity?

Pete

Their are people like that and They are out there. Wish I still had a link, but there was some site with a HUGE article about why Robotech was better then the individual source shows which he claimed to see. He was clearly biased though as he admitted he wasn't an anime fan and didn't care for the Japanese cultural references or the Japanese songs of the original source material.

Which brings me to another story. This year at Dragon Con I was staffing for the Anime and Manga departmant and we had this quest run a Otaku Jeopardy Panel. FIRST catergory that comes up on the board is "A through Zentradi" and I am all excited "Yes, Macross!" Then I see the $100 question "What is the name of the Mecha used by the pilots of the RDF?", my jaw hits the floor, and "I am thinking WTF! Since when did Robotech become considered anime and why would hardcore Otaku actually watch it? Sure enough the Jeopardy host was all "Geez! I can't believe none of you have ever seen Robotech! You all fail as Otaku. I need to give Harmony Gold a call and tell them they need to start actually marketing their Robotech DVDs at these conventions." after 2 out 3 of the contestants and ALL the audience members admitted to have no idea what Robotech was. As for the last contestant he said he saw a few episodes. He showed he was at least somewhat familiar with the show atleast... when he answered "Roy Fokker" to the question "What was the name of Kyron's #2 man."

Which is the thing there is almost always a bias when getting someone's opinion about Robotech either its a masterpiece of western animation, an alternative anime to Macross, or a complete hack job that completly defiles the holiness of anime depending on who you talk to.

I once even considered showing Robotech and Macross to several of my anime friends to see if I could get a somewhat unbiased opinion then I realized they either want to puke at the sight of pre-90s animation and are OVERLY OBSESSIVE HARDCORE OTAKU!!! Seriously you think dealing with Robotech fans is bad enough, trying having your college crush theaten to punch you and your non-otaku just plain nerdy friends the next time you all pronounce "Manga" incorrectly at the college dining hall...

Back to your original question. If only we could put people in Hikaru's shoes and force them to actually chose one franchise over the other instead of maintaining a franchise love triangle...

Edited October 15, 2009 by Freiflug88

[nanoplasm]

But maybe that's because he didn't know any better?

Maybe I should restate the question:

Are there really people who, after having seen Macross (both SDFM and later series/OVAs) as well as having seen original Mospedia and Southern Cross, who STILL prefer Robotech as anything beyond either a nostalgic experience or a historical curiosity?

The person who insisted on playing "We will win" from his prized Robotech Perfect Soundtrack Album CD knew about SFDM; he has watched at least three versions of DYRL (English, Japanese sub, and Cantonese version).

But I guess you can say he preferred Robotech out of nostalgic reasons.

Robotech was the version he watched when he was a little kid, and it was Robotech that led him to study CS. One of his career goal is to either develop a veritech flight sim game or work in the aerospace field (to influence Veritech concepts in to actual designs).

Since my primary exposure to RT was through the novel series, Macross and RT are two completely different stories from my perspective. Each story has its own unique appeal, and comparing the two is like comparing Star Wars with Star Trek: Two great Sci-Fi franchises that share some similarities but are fundamentally apples and oranges.

Edited October 15, 2009 by nanoplasm

[HappyPenguins]

1985. And yes, they made a deal then. They renewed (or renegotiated, or something) the deal in '98 or '99. They'll probable have to do it again at some point.

Oh, and JasonC: I'm sure you've seen this, but apparently, Pizza the Hutt is accusing you of joining RT.com under a different name for the purpose of trolling. The boy doesn't have too good a grasp of history, does he?

Y'know, he once promised he would post here and let everyone know it was him. I wonder what happened to that promise...?

Easy, he doesn't have anyone he can hide behind over here

[Einherjar]

To me, after its initial success Robotech was able to survive this long more through general manipulation than creativity. HG took advantage of an emerging form of media until enough of the audience understood what they had done. But by then it was too late; they had made enough money out of it and was now ligitimate enough to challenge any future criticism people would have. That's why we're here today.

[Freiflug88]

To me, after its initial success Robotech was able to survive this long more through general manipulation than creativity. HG took advantage of an emerging form of media until enough of the audience understood what they had done. But by then it was too late; they had made enough money out of it and was now ligitimate enough to challenge any future criticism people would have. That's why we're here today.

You do have a point with today's picky anime fans and the fact that they always find out what has been changed in a series through the internet shows like Robotech, Battle of the Planets, Voltron, etc would no doubt die in today's anime market. Just renaming a series would cause massive fan outrage.

Edited October 15, 2009 by Freiflug88