HG and Robotech Debates

[BeyondTheGrave]

The only people with that complaint has either never heard of the internet or people that want BW to make the deal with HG, which would be Robotech fans. The benefits that HG can offer would be so minimal.

BLASPHEMY!!

You'd have the Kevin McKeveer/ Tommy Yune seal of approval.

And a narrator explaining everyone's feelings even though its already apparent what everyone is feeling.

As well as a leigon platoon bakers dozen of fans!!

My question is, why does there need to be a next installment at all? And no one has really answered that.

Fans were told its on the way, just around the corner, you wait and see Krusty Robotech is coming!

Shōji Kawamori better beware

Or something like that

Edited September 16, 2009 by BeyondTheGrave

[Whamhammer]

The only people with that complaint has either never heard of the internet or people that want BW to make the deal with HG, which would be Robotech fans. The benefits that HG can offer would be so minimal.

Okay, that works. That complaint is what I've heard from several people in the past about not being able to get Macross stuff. Should I hear that again , I'll be sure to refer them to here to have you guys help them find it.

[Einherjar]

McKeever loves to say how profitable and succcessfull they are. I say take that success, take that profit, convert it into capital and do something with it. If they dont want to , sell it to a company that does.

What Kevin McKeever says is mostly part of Public Relations. It's hard to know if he's even telling the truth most of the time or bending it to make things sound good for the company. You shouldn't take a lot of what he says at face value like what MEMO has been doing. In fact, robotech.com is mostly Public Relations. When it was created, it probably had its advantages for the franchise, but it's more of a liability now because of the elevated expectations it has created with the fandom. It's the equivalent of the fictional version of Dunder Mifflin Infinity.

[Whamhammer]

Well, thank you for the psychoanalysis. How much do I owe you?

Depends, what health plan are you on?

And no, I wasn't trying to insult you. As I said, maybe I'm just communicating badly. As for others...well, you kind of have to expect it, unfortunately. Over the years, we've had a fair number of crazed Robotech fans show up trying to justify their favorite show. Enough of them got abusive that I think a lot of us tend to be wary.

And yes, I know a lot of Macross fans have done the same thing on the RT.com boards. Personally, I don't condone that kind of behavior; I know what I like, and I don't really feel the need to force anybody else to conform to my tastes. Although if someone gets obnoxious about it, I don't mind pointing that out (witness the Sheryl/Ranka "discussions" of last year). As such, I don't feel the need to troll the RT.com boards, and I've come out against Youtube Macrss fans who just hurl expletives at Robotech videos.

Well Im glad to hear that, I hoped that was the case. Like I said if you have a need for me to elaborate by all means... ask me. Just as I would do with you. When it comes down to it , theyre just cartoons!!! <ducking for cover>

But if you're looking for a real debate, I have to say I think you're at a disadvantage. Most of us have seen both Robotech AND Macross; you haven't. And what are we debating, anyway? Are you trying to get me to accept Robotech?

No, Im not trying to get you to accept Robotech.

You're coming up with what HG needs to do to ensure that the next Robotech installment will be not be a mess. My question is, why does there need to be a next installment at all? And no one has really answered that.

Why should anything have a next installment. Why should Macross? Why should Star Wars? Why should Harry Potter? The answer to your question is that your question is rhetorical. Youre set in the belief that there shouldnt be, are you willing to say that you are truely open to such a solution if it was presented to you?

Wow...you mean they didn't force you to read that in high school? Get on the ball, then...Aldous Huxley is quite good.

Dude, my high school was lucky to be even able to offer Shakespear for people to read. They couldnt even teach the Constitution to most of the kids, much less have someone read what they might have called "modern litereature" . And by the time that show was on I was what, in my late twenties? I was probable at the drag strip running dial ins or some other race track at the time it was on. Should I ever get time to read books other than the ones getting thrown at me in school (Im going back for my degree) maybe Ill give it a shot, but right now, Im not picking up anything published-wise other than the occasional Motor Trend.

[taksraven]

What Kevin McKeever says is mostly part of Public Relations. It's hard to know if he's even telling the truth most of the time or bending it to make things sound good for the company. You shouldn't take a lot of what he says at face value like what MEMO has been doing. In fact, robotech.com is mostly Public Relations. When it was created, it probably had its advantages for the franchise, but it's more of a liability now because of the elevated expectations it has created with the fandom. It's the equivalent of the fictional version of Dunder Mifflin Infinity.

So Public DISinformation rather than Public Relations. Minister of Propaganda? Ministry of Truth?

I love 1984.

DO IT TO LI-SAAAAAAAAA!!!!!

Taksraven

[justvinnie]

Robotech re-wrote the scene. I haven't watched in a long time but I believe the animation shows sand blowing across the desert before Ray falls. In Robotech the sand was said to be "spores from the flower of life" and it's breathing the spores that give Rand his dream more than it is the dehydration.

FYI, flowering plants do not have spores. The point of flowers is seed production.

vinnie

[Whamhammer]

What Kevin McKeever says is mostly part of Public Relations. It's hard to know if he's even telling the truth most of the time or bending it to make things sound good for the company. You shouldn't take a lot of what he says at face value like what MEMO has been doing. In fact, robotech.com is mostly Public Relations. When it was created, it probably had its advantages for the franchise, but it's more of a liability now because of the elevated expectations it has created with the fandom. It's the equivalent of the fictional version of Dunder Mifflin Infinity.

Trust me, I havent taken much of what Kevin has said seriously for quite sometime. While he does have a hard job in P.R. there, I dont think he's the guy for it. He seems more interested in prooving a customer wrong when a customer has a complaint than listening to them and resolving it. I dont think its intentional ,Im sure hes a good enough guy, he might have his hands tied by his bosses and it comes out in frustration (been there before myself), if thats the case I wish someone would offer him a position with some real lattitude either that or H.G. get more on the ball <dont ask me to hold my breath> .

[anime52k8]

FYI, flowering plants do not have spores. The point of flowers is seed production.

vinnie

but these are alien pants that can be turned into fuel that you can get high off of.

[Whamhammer]

That how the internet is you can't exactly tell how someone is talking by text alone. Facial expressions and voice inflection play a large part.

Yes this thread does go down that road a lot. It's not so much a dislike of robotech just a dislike of how its original source material is treated. It doesn't when someone (not saying you) says that RT is the greatest thing to happen besides the Beatles and Hg owns everything associated with Macross

I totally know what youre saying one of the biggest problems people have in communication writingwise , is that we talk in a different way than we write and that does lead to a lot of confusion. As you were describing I sure havent said those things and even dont hold that opinion. I'd say Ive been pretty critical of the things H.G. has done to Robotech and its fans. I just like to offer a different way at looking at things. I tend to look at things differently than others do (call that a benefit or a deffiency depending on what side of the fence youre on, I guess).

[taksraven]

but these are alien pants that can be turned into fuel that you can get high off of.

Surely the best kind of fuel......

Taksraven

[EXO]

Okay, that works. That complaint is what I've heard from several people in the past about not being able to get Macross stuff. Should I hear that again , I'll be sure to refer them to here to have you guys help them find it.

Yeah, you do that. There's a for sale section in MW just for them.

You know MW is a great resource for Macross stuff, I just didn't know it was a secret. Hey you can even interchange most of this stuff for Robotech merchandise. Let them know that the MPC isn't the only choice.

[Gubaba]

Why should anything have a next installment. Why should Macross? Why should Star Wars? Why should Harry Potter? The answer to your question is that your question is rhetorical. Youre set in the belief that there shouldnt be, are you willing to say that you are truely open to such a solution if it was presented to you?

It's not rhetorical. Star Wars, Harry Potter, Macross...all of these have made a lot of money, and (more importantly for me) all of them have been handled primarily by a SINGLE, CENTRAL AUTHOR, who created the world and finds artistic satisfaction in extending and developing his or her original ideas (this, by the way, has nothing to do with the QUALITY of those extensions, which may be good or bad).

Robotech, to me, loses from the start, because it was "created" by nobody. Star Wars is George Lucas's personal vision, and he is the overriding authority on it, for good or ill. No one gets to play professionally in J. K. Rowling's sandbox without her official say-so. Kawamori is the ultimate man of Macross, with the power to wipe anything he DIDN'T work on into an "alternate continuity."

So...financially, the sequels make sense; and artistically, the creators have more to say with the work. Ain't nothing wrong with that.

But...can Carl Macek claim that he created Robotech in the same way that the examples you cite created their worlds? Of course not. He adapted the series, and everything he has personally tried to create from whole cloth has been a stunning failure (not always his fault, of course).

I'm not a big believer in shared worlds or creativity by committee. Great storytelling just doesn't work that way.

So, without an incentive of big financial gain, AND without a story that NEEDS to be told...what's the point of continuing it?

It's not a rhetorical question. I'd really like to know.

[azrael]

Dude, my high school was lucky to be even able to offer Shakespear for people to read. They couldnt even teach the Constitution to most of the kids, much less have someone read what they might have called "modern litereature" .*snip*.

See, now do all of you people understand my ranting about people not reading? But I digress....

I don't understand why Hg hasn't tried to update the Veritech(Valkyrie) designs.

If you were to look back at all the aircraft designs in Macross you can actually see how they have remained the same and yet at the same time are unique in their design.

Do you mean for new shows or for the LAM? I recall them coming up with new designs but nothing that made it to an production. Creatively/Artistically, I can't answer that. Legally, they just need to keep up the trademark or they lose it. Simple as that.

Robotech, to me, loses from the start, because it was "created" by nobody. Star Wars is George Lucas's personal vision, and he is the overriding authority on it, for good or ill. No one gets to play professionally in J. K. Rowling's sandbox without her official say-so. Kawamori is the ultimate man of Macross, with the power to wipe anything he DIDN'T work on into an "alternate continuity."

So...financially, the sequels make sense; and artistically, the creators have more to say with the work. Ain't nothing wrong with that....*snip*

As I've said, REBOOT and REIMAGE. Take the core ideas and have someone build a world. New mecha, new ships, same names but update it. RT:SC tried and failed (lesson here: Don't try). This gives creators and artists room to play things out without being tied to any particular continuity. It gives them a chance to flex the creative muscles and do something unique.

[Keith]

Well then, I guess you dont get what you want. Ive learned that when its in enough of an entitys best interests that they will mend a fence or a bridge. Maybe Big West doesnt consider the American anime market worth it enough to pony up some fence mending to bring you Macross here?

If Big West wanted to stick toes into the U.S., why would they waste time with small potatoes, when they already have a full working relationsihp with Bandai Visual (and by proxy international sister Bandai Entertainment).?

[Gubaba]

As I've said, REBOOT and REIMAGE. Take the core ideas and have someone build a world. New mecha, new ships, same names but update it. RT:SC tried and failed (lesson here: Don't try). This gives creators and artists room to play things out without being tied to any particular continuity. It gives them a chance to flex the creative muscles and do something unique.

Mmm...I'm a hardliner on that subject (as I've detailed in the "Hollywood remake" thread.

If the original creator(s) isn't/aren't involved, I tend to think of the work as glorified fanfiction.

Well...unless the original sucked; but then I'm STILL not going to be very interested in the remake, unless A LOT of people I trust tell me it's worthwhile (cf. Battlestar Galactica).

But with Robotech, who are the original creators? The Macross staff, the Southern Cross staff, and the Mospeada staff. Not anyone who's going to have a pivotal part in the creation of any Robotech remake/remodel.

[VFTF1]

I think that fundamentally - this debate goes deeper than just Robotech vs. Macross. And I'm going to try to extrapolate certain key issues that might go a long way to explaining the divides we're seeing... I hope.

1) "Bringing Anime to America"

This argument comes up sometimes, in the sense of "if only" HG and BW could set aside their differences, then Macross would be legally available in the USA and so forth, and so on. However - I wonder if the people who make this argument don't also happen to be people who prefer dubs to subs? I don't know - but I ask because I get the feeling that it's actually becoming more and more superfluous to do things like 'bringing' anime anywhere. Hasbro has become smart to this with their Transformers shows which they just...guess what?... show for free on their website. It saves them money not having to syndicate it all over the world. Sometimes, naturally, tv stations in different countries will approach them about it because it's a popular cartoon (or so the thinking goes), but generally Hasbro itself has been showing Transformers shows on the internet for a while now. This is smart. People would be downloading it anyways - why not just bring them to the company website and give it to them? Especially since the show is ultimately a vehicle to drive the sale of Transformers products? BW doesn't have Macross available on the net - but they don't run around cracking down on fansubs either. I believe that we're witnessing a fundamental change in how anime is marketed - you can see it with the collapse of a company like ADV. People are cutting costs amidst this depression, and no company that produces anime (and therefore also is looking to cash in on merchandise) is ever going to risk upsetting people and hurting themselves by going after fansubbers on a mass scale. Why? Because it will cost the company MORE to "legally" distribute the show - and besides - given that the international market is a niche - why would they go to the trouble of financing the shows on a more broadly available television station, which would cost more, and would likely only end up with the show being on TV at...6 am or some other stupid hour? Remember - TV actually sucks because it invites the world to watch something a time-slot X. But the internet lets you watch it when YOU want to and can. TV is at a competitive disadvantage just like the print media are. In my opinion, in 20 years - there will be no more television. Television sets will have gone the way of VCRs. People will have integrated large screen computers in their homes where features such as DVDs and surround sound will be intergrated into the huge screen on their wall, along with a wireless keybad and tough-tone mouse pad. The system will be multi-purpose allowing you to watch a movie on the big screen, tune into whatever shows are running, the news, or use it to cruise the net. For more personalized needs (writing, work etc) people will always have their laptops. Forward looking companies are not going to spend resources to "market" anime to foriegn countries as if this was 1985. Of course, if the goal is to mass market in the short term, then an in-country intermediary is useful - but by and large - if you get right down to it - even in spite of the existence of Bandai USA and other such entities - there are no major intermediaries between the original product in Japan and the consumers on the international market and the marketing strategies that companies use for international sales are no where near as wholistic and sophisticated as what they do with the Japanese market - and never will be. The international market is a self-propelling entity and always will be. The Earth is too big, and anime fans are too scattered around the planet to effectively plan the utilization of resources on a concentrated marketing campaign - it would be pointless. The product is good enough to draw interest world wide and the internet is universal enough to make it possible to bring the stuff to people's attention anyways. Niche companies can arise to offer related services - it happens and it's not like nobody wants it...

but..um...

I forgot what my point was...

er...

and now I'm bored of this subject again

Carry on!

Pete

[Seto Kaiba]

FYI, flowering plants do not have spores. The point of flowers is seed production.

What were you expecting, scientific accuracy? This is Robotech we're talking about... a desperate (and by all accounts alcohol-fueled) attempt to make a good show (Macross) long enough to syndicate by tacking a mediocre show (Mospeada) and a god-awful show (Southern Cross) to the back end of it using nothing but dialogue. If the cast interviews are anything to go by, a fair bit of the writing was done marathon style IN the studio while recording was taking place. It's not like you have to look very hard to find inaccuracies like that... admittedly I do find the "flowering plants emitting spores AND seeds" to be at least a bit more troubling than things like Earth's SIXTH lagrange point...

Trust me, I havent taken much of what Kevin has said seriously for quite sometime. While he does have a hard job in P.R. there, I dont think he's the guy for it. He seems more interested in proving a customer wrong when a customer has a complaint than listening to them and resolving it. I dont think its intentional ,Im sure hes a good enough guy, he might have his hands tied by his bosses and it comes out in frustration (been there before myself), if thats the case I wish someone would offer him a position with some real latitude either that or H.G. get more on the ball <dont ask me to hold my breath> .

The problem is that Kevin is NOT a public relations agent... he's their marketing director. As anyone who's got experience dealing with marketeers will tell you, marketing is the use of fraud and deception to sell trash to idiots. Naturally, he's not too concerned with customer satisfaction, after all... that's not what his job's about. His job is to make sure that their products don't get a negative reputation, and to ensure that the customers keep buying... and portraying complainers as frothy-mouthed Robotech-haters DOES work to an extent. If other viewers don't take the complaints seriously, they'll be more inclined to buy the products being complained-about.

But...can Carl Macek claim that he created Robotech in the same way that the examples you cite created their worlds? Of course not. He adapted the series, and everything he has personally tried to create from whole cloth has been a stunning failure (not always his fault, of course).

That certainly hasn't stopped Carl Macek from arrogantly claiming to have "improved" Macross with the addition of god-awful voice acting, music, and a dreadful new plot that ties it into one of the worst examples of 80's anime. You could make an excellent case for his ONLY attempt to create a new show from the ground up as being a monumental failure that was mainly his fault... the cancellation of Robotech 3000 may have been blamed on Netter Digital, but there's no mistaking who was calling the shots on the production of the teaser trailer that went over like a lead-filled balloon... Carl Macek. You can't really call Robotech II: the Sentinels an original effort, since that was, by any fair definition, just a show made using set pieces from Macross and Southern Cross, and mixed with heavy doses of Star Trek, and of course nobody would dare claim that the Robotech: the Untold Story movie was original (for the obvious reasons).

As I've said, REBOOT and REIMAGE. Take the core ideas and have someone build a world. New mecha, new ships, same names but update it. RT:SC tried and failed (lesson here: Don't try). This gives creators and artists room to play things out without being tied to any particular continuity. It gives them a chance to flex the creative muscles and do something unique.

Yeah, they COULD do that, but they won't. They've proven pretty conclusively that they're terrified of doing anything that isn't strictly related to the existing 85-episode series, for fear that the fans will crucify it like they did Robotech 3000. If it happens, it'll happen because Warner Bros took charge.

If the original creator(s) isn't/aren't involved, I tend to think of the work as glorified fanfiction.

Oddly, this is the exact argument used by the die-hard fans of the original Robotech series to criticize Shadow Chronicles.

Personally, I disagree... I think that a changing of the guard (as it were) is a good thing every now and then... especially if the show's creative directors have run out of ideas (Carl Macek), have died (Gene Roddenberry), or just can't be arsed (Kawamori on Macross II). (I realize full well that I'm going to hell for lumping Carl Macek together with people who can actually write in any context) It gives the franchise the chance to pursue new angles... but only if you get a decent set of writers, designers, etc. who know what they're bloody well doing. Macross had that with Macross II (though the show kept a few of the old guard and its biggest sin was perhaps sticking TOO close to the themes of the original), Star Trek had it for a while with the latter half of The Next Generation and most of Deep Space 9 before everything went snoop-the-loopy with Voyager and Enterprise... but Robotech never did. The changing of the guard took the show out of the hands one one terminally inept man who couldn't write new material at all and gave it to a somewhat less inept man who doesn't know how to write new sci-fi material at all.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[taksraven]

It's not rhetorical. Star Wars, Harry Potter, Macross...all of these have made a lot of money, and (more importantly for me) all of them have been handled primarily by a SINGLE, CENTRAL AUTHOR, who created the world and finds artistic satisfaction in extending and developing his or her original ideas (this, by the way, has nothing to do with the QUALITY of those extensions, which may be good or bad).

Robotech, to me, loses from the start, because it was "created" by nobody. Star Wars is George Lucas's personal vision, and he is the overriding authority on it, for good or ill. No one gets to play professionally in J. K. Rowling's sandbox without her official say-so. Kawamori is the ultimate man of Macross, with the power to wipe anything he DIDN'T work on into an "alternate continuity."

So...financially, the sequels make sense; and artistically, the creators have more to say with the work. Ain't nothing wrong with that.

But...can Carl Macek claim that he created Robotech in the same way that the examples you cite created their worlds? Of course not. He adapted the series, and everything he has personally tried to create from whole cloth has been a stunning failure (not always his fault, of course).

I'm not a big believer in shared worlds or creativity by committee. Great storytelling just doesn't work that way.

So, without an incentive of big financial gain, AND without a story that NEEDS to be told...what's the point of continuing it?

It's not a rhetorical question. I'd really like to know.

Most shows/movies, etc benefit from having a single creative visionary behind them, whether it be a writer or director. This is why both the Alien and Predator franchises have such problems as far as I am concerned, since there is no single person running the show.

There can be successful exceptions to the rule, Doctor Who being one of them.

Taksraven

[taksraven]

Mmm...I'm a hardliner on that subject (as I've detailed in the "Hollywood remake" thread.

If the original creator(s) isn't/aren't involved, I tend to think of the work as glorified fanfiction.

Well...unless the original sucked; but then I'm STILL not going to be very interested in the remake, unless A LOT of people I trust tell me it's worthwhile (cf. Battlestar Galactica).

But with Robotech, who are the original creators? The Macross staff, the Southern Cross staff, and the Mospeada staff. Not anyone who's going to have a pivotal part in the creation of any Robotech remake/remodel.

Its just a pity that that sort of crap has to go on, esp. in literature. New Hitch-Hikers novel not written by Douglas Adams, forget it. Those bastardised Dune novels written after Herberts death, forget it.

But then again, some writers/creators revisit material that should be left alone. Joseph Heller wrote a pointless sequel to Catch-22. And then there is Blues Brothers 2000. AAAARRGGHHH!!!!

Taksraven

[RedWolf]

~snip

Word of mouth and fansubs does marketing in an unexpected way. Kyo-Ani and Kadokawa didn't expect Haruhi to be such a hit internationally.

So much that several companies were scrambling to bring it over.

There is a tongue and cheek acknowledgement of fansubs and downloaders. They only want even if you have a digital sub buy the DVDs.

Some scanlation groups of manga advocate that you buy also the manga volumes to support the author.

[Lolicon]

Off-topic a little, but I just wanted to say that I wouldn't lump a talented creator like Kawamori in with a hack like Roddenbery. Eugene Wesley Roddenberry had the seed of a good idea, but couldn't write a good show if his life depended on it. This is the man who hated having Worf as a primary cast member, had Picard solve complex socio-political problems every week with a stern lecture (because he's an enlightened Federation citizen bringing, uh, enlightenment to the backwards aliens of the galaxy), and who wanted Wesley to be the "breakout" character on TNG and tried to cram him down our throats.

His mantra on TNG was "Humans are perfect and should not be depicted with any flaws whatsoever."

Star Trek became good when creative control was taken away from him and he died, as macabre as that may sound. (The franchise was later driven into the ground, but that's another story.)

He also screwed Alexander Courage out of his music royalties.

http://www.snopes.com/radiotv/tv/trek.asp

An interview with Ron Moore shortly before his new BSG series started. Long interview, but gives lots of great info on what happened behind the scenes of Star Trek.

http://tv.ign.com/articles/444/444306p1.html

Anyway, back to Macross.

I support an official worldwide international release of Macross shows and merchandise in principle. In reality, I'm just fine with the way things are. Things are great thanks to the Interweb. I can get any Macross shows and products I want, and I can rest easy knowing that not a penny of my money is going to HG. HG is a sleazy company that does little more than try to profit off the hard work of more talented people, and I simply cannot support that in any way. Why should HG get a dime for contributing absolutely nothing to the creation of any Macross series? Why should HG get one centavo for the sale of Bandai's Macross Frontier products? If Big West decided they wanted to market Macross officially in America, why do they have to do business with sleaze like HG?

[taksraven]

Off-topic a little, but I just wanted to say that I wouldn't lump a talented creator like Kawamori in with a hack like Roddenbery. Eugene Wesley Roddenberry had the seed of a good idea, but couldn't write a good show if his life depended on it. This is the man who hated having Worf as a primary cast member, had Picard solve complex socio-political problems every week with a stern lecture (because he's an enlightened Federation citizen bringing, uh, enlightenment to the backwards aliens of the galaxy), and who wanted Wesley to be the "breakout" character on TNG and tried to cram him down our throats.

His mantra on TNG was "Humans are perfect and should not be depicted with any flaws whatsoever."

Star Trek became good when creative control was taken away from him and he died, as macabre as that may sound. (The franchise was later driven into the ground, but that's another story.)

He also screwed Alexander Courage out of his music royalties.

http://www.snopes.com/radiotv/tv/trek.asp

An interview with Ron Moore shortly before his new BSG series started. Long interview, but gives lots of great info on what happened behind the scenes of Star Trek.

http://tv.ign.com/articles/444/444306p1.html

Anyway, back to Macross.

You do bring up some interesting points about Roddenberry, but I also think that you are inclined to demonise him a bit. Thats not to say that the man was perfect, he had his faults.

But we all do.

Roddenberry was still an important creative force behind one of the most successful (but certainly not the best) SF franchises of all time and I think that his work with Trek helped to popularise SF overall as a genre, to the extent that if Star Trek had not been created it certainly has to be said that SF would be a very different beast to what it is now.

Just my opinion. Feel free to disagree......

Taksraven

[Whamhammer]

It's not rhetorical. Star Wars, Harry Potter, Macross...all of these have made a lot of money, and (more importantly for me) all of them have been handled primarily by a SINGLE, CENTRAL AUTHOR, who created the world and finds artistic satisfaction in extending and developing his or her original ideas (this, by the way, has nothing to do with the QUALITY of those extensions, which may be good or bad).

Robotech, to me, loses from the start, because it was "created" by nobody. Star Wars is George Lucas's personal vision, and he is the overriding authority on it, for good or ill. No one gets to play professionally in J. K. Rowling's sandbox without her official say-so. Kawamori is the ultimate man of Macross, with the power to wipe anything he DIDN'T work on into an "alternate continuity."

So...financially, the sequels make sense; and artistically, the creators have more to say with the work. Ain't nothing wrong with that.

But...can Carl Macek claim that he created Robotech in the same way that the examples you cite created their worlds? Of course not. He adapted the series, and everything he has personally tried to create from whole cloth has been a stunning failure (not always his fault, of course).

I'm not a big believer in shared worlds or creativity by committee. Great storytelling just doesn't work that way.

So, without an incentive of big financial gain, AND without a story that NEEDS to be told...what's the point of continuing it?

It's not a rhetorical question. I'd really like to know.

Thats your opinion. Like I've said I accept respect your opinion. You also have strong feelings about Robotech and I know nothing said would change it. In order for me to say something that would get you to agree to an idea of a continuation of Robtoech would be nothing short of getting you to accept Robotech, which you've said youre not interested and and Ive said Im not interested in trying to get you to accept Robotech. That is why I've said that it is a rhetorical question.

[Whamhammer]

Off-topic a little, but I just wanted to say that I wouldn't lump a talented creator like Kawamori in with a hack like Roddenbery. Eugene Wesley Roddenberry had the seed of a good idea, but couldn't write a good show if his life depended on it. This is the man who hated having Worf as a primary cast member, had Picard solve complex socio-political problems every week with a stern lecture (because he's an enlightened Federation citizen bringing, uh, enlightenment to the backwards aliens of the galaxy), and who wanted Wesley to be the "breakout" character on TNG and tried to cram him down our throats.

His mantra on TNG was "Humans are perfect and should not be depicted with any flaws whatsoever."

Star Trek became good when creative control was taken away from him and he died, as macabre as that may sound. (The franchise was later driven into the ground, but that's another story.)

He also screwed Alexander Courage out of his music royalties.

http://www.snopes.com/radiotv/tv/trek.asp

An interview with Ron Moore shortly before his new BSG series started. Long interview, but gives lots of great info on what happened behind the scenes of Star Trek.

http://tv.ign.com/articles/444/444306p1.html

Anyway, back to Macross.

I support an official worldwide international release of Macross shows and merchandise in principle. In reality, I'm just fine with the way things are. Things are great thanks to the Interweb. I can get any Macross shows and products I want, and I can rest easy knowing that not a penny of my money is going to HG. HG is a sleazy company that does little more than try to profit off the hard work of more talented people, and I simply cannot support that in any way. Why should HG get a dime for contributing absolutely nothing to the creation of any Macross series? Why should HG get one centavo for the sale of Bandai's Macross Frontier products? If Big West decided they wanted to market Macross officially in America, why do they have to do business with sleaze like HG?

If you remember "Undiscovered Country", Star Trek talked about "human vs alien" relations, especially with the Klingons taking exception to the phrase "inalienable rights" during thier debate. While T.N.G. is not my favorite series, I wouldnt go as far as suggesting that the Human race and the Federation percieved themselves as superior. I think its more on the lines of having a T.V. show that was still trying to be in that 60's and 70's "wholesomeness" genre, the show was "soft" they were trying to show a galaxy that wasnt as "savage" as it was during the times of Kirk and were trying to go in the opposite direction of Kirks "cowboyness" and you get... Picard. (The ballet outfits in the first three seasons didnt help either, yick!!!)

[Whamhammer]

Yeah, you do that. There's a for sale section in MW just for them.

You know MW is a great resource for Macross stuff, I just didn't know it was a secret. Hey you can even interchange most of this stuff for Robotech merchandise. Let them know that the MPC isn't the only choice.

You know it!

[Freiflug88]

If Big West wanted to stick toes into the U.S., why would they waste time with small potatoes, when they already have a full working relationsihp with Bandai Visual (and by proxy international sister Bandai Entertainment).?

Big West could still stick with releasing Bandai distributing in the US with no cost to them. What Harmony Gold's trademark means is that whoever distributes anime products with the trademark Macross name in the U.S. has to pay Harmony Gold a fee for the right to use the trademark. Bandai would actually be the one paying the trademark fee as the distributor not the producer of the show Big West. Of course Big West refused to allow Harmony Gold to distribute Macross overseas, but they would no doubt have no problem working with Bandai or pretty much anyone besides Harmony Gold. The problem is that no American company besides HG is serious about importing Macross because its so expensive just to acquire a Macross show and dub it for an English release even without the Harmony Gold trademark fee that is something like $2.00 per DVD sold. Only ADV, which is unfortunately out of business now, had the balls to actually acquire and dub Macross then charge consumers an extra $2.00 a DVD to cover the Harmony Gold Trademark, but on the other hand the rights to SDF Macross is no doubt only a fraction of what Big West would charge Bandai for Macross Frontier.

[Einherjar]

Thats your opinion. Like I've said I accept respect your opinion. You also have strong feelings about Robotech and I know nothing said would change it. In order for me to say something that would get you to agree to an idea of a continuation of Robtoech would be nothing short of getting you to accept Robotech, which you've said youre not interested and and Ive said Im not interested in trying to get you to accept Robotech. That is why I've said that it is a rhetorical question.

Gubaba makes a good point. In your opinion, what makes Robotech worth continuing with so many restrictions put on it? This isn't rhetorical either.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Einherjar

[Keith]

Big West could still stick with releasing Bandai distributing in the US with no cost to them. What Harmony Gold's trademark means is that whoever distributes anime products with the trademark Macross name in the U.S. has to pay Harmony Gold a fee for the right to use the trademark. Bandai would actually be the one paying the trademark fee as the distributor not the producer of the show Big West. Of course Big West refused to allow Harmony Gold to distribute Macross overseas, but they would no doubt have no problem working with Bandai or pretty much anyone besides Harmony Gold. The problem is that no American company besides HG is serious about importing Macross because its so expensive just to acquire a Macross show and dub it for an English release even without the Harmony Gold trademark fee that is something like $2.00 per DVD sold. Only ADV, which is unfortunately out of business now, had the balls to actually acquire and dub Macross then charge consumers an extra $2.00 a DVD to cover the Harmony Gold Trademark, but on the other hand the rights to SDF Macross is no doubt only a fraction of what Big West would charge Bandai for Macross Frontier.

To be fair, the scenario involving paying royalties to HG is only an absolute in "HG's World." All it would really take is for a company (after paying those licensing fees) to be balsy enough to just ignore HG's threats of litigation. Hell, at thsi point, I think all it would take is a company like Manga to go out and get new masters of Plus from Big West, and release those here. Going by the rule of "we have copyright on the name Macross," Manga's ability to get Plus out the door before those shinanigoats started, and continue to release "Macross" without paying said copyright all these years would kill any litigation HG could try. And bonus, Manga & BE already have a history of working together with Stand Alone Complex.

[Whamhammer]

To be fair, the scenario involving paying royalties to HG is only an absolute in "HG's World." All it would really take is for a company (after paying those licensing fees) to be balsy enough to just ignore HG's threats of litigation. Hell, at thsi point, I think all it would take is a company like Manga to go out and get new masters of Plus from Big West, and release those here. Going by the rule of "we have copyright on the name Macross," Manga's ability to get Plus out the door before those shinanigoats started, and continue to release "Macross" without paying said copyright all these years would kill any litigation HG could try. And bonus, Manga & BE already have a history of working together with Stand Alone Complex.

I hope they do it. If there would be a (U.S.) suit involved , they should follow it to its conclsion. If Magna wins or looses it should help settle a big dispute amongst fans.

[Keith]

I hope they do it. If there would be a (U.S.) suit involved , they should follow it to its conclsion. If Magna wins or looses it should help settle a big dispute amongst fans.

BTW, you never told us, which one are you, Tommy, Steve, or Kevin?

[Whamhammer]

BTW, you never told us, which one are you, Tommy, Steve, or Kevin?

I sure hope youre joking.

[HappyPenguins]

BTW, you never told us, which one are you, Tommy, Steve, or Kevin?

nah it's carl macek

[jenius]

Of course Big West refused to allow Harmony Gold to distribute Macross overseas, but they would no doubt have no problem working with Bandai or pretty much anyone besides Harmony Gold.

BW forms its contracts to forbid its licensees from doing business with HG (although I'm sure the words are less explicit, something akin to "the licensee is prohibited from entering into corresponding licensing agreements with international bodies.) So there can't really be an agreement where some company (like Bandai was trying to line up) can do business with both BW and HG.

EDIT - I have never seen a BW contract and can not swear to this but it seems pretty clear by the number of attempts Japanese companies have made to bring their products to the US officially only to later cite "licensing issues" after Toynami/HG reps stated they were on board.

Edited September 16, 2009 by jenius

[Ghost Train]

If you remember "Undiscovered Country", Star Trek talked about "human vs alien" relations, especially with the Klingons taking exception to the phrase "inalienable rights" during thier debate. While T.N.G. is not my favorite series, I wouldnt go as far as suggesting that the Human race and the Federation percieved themselves as superior. I think its more on the lines of having a T.V. show that was still trying to be in that 60's and 70's "wholesomeness" genre, the show was "soft" they were trying to show a galaxy that wasnt as "savage" as it was during the times of Kirk and were trying to go in the opposite direction of Kirks "cowboyness" and you get... Picard. (The ballet outfits in the first three seasons didnt help either, yick!!!)

I always got the "we are better" vibe from TNG - though it was mostly because I analyze things too deeply. I can distinctly remember many times when the Enterprise-D was hailed by some unknown civilization and were asked to identify themselves, and Picard would say "human." The poducers/writers were just lazy probably. Saying, we are a federation of planets composed of x group of species, is like 11 more words.

DS9 on the other hand I liked better particularly because it threw the sci-fi political correctness/utopia garbage out the door and put its characters in rather nasty, hateful situations doing things that you wouldn't think of a nice starfleet officer doing.

[Jasonc]

What Kevin McKeever says is mostly part of Public Relations. It's hard to know if he's even telling the truth most of the time or bending it to make things sound good for the company. You shouldn't take a lot of what he says at face value like what MEMO has been doing. In fact, robotech.com is mostly Public Relations. When it was created, it probably had its advantages for the franchise, but it's more of a liability now because of the elevated expectations it has created with the fandom. It's the equivalent of the fictional version of Dunder Mifflin Infinity.

It's the one thing I never understood about RT fans. Why believe someone that isn't going to tell it exactly like it is? When Kevin did mention Robotech Shadow Rising on hiatus, I believe he was telling the truth. Of course, when that was said, fans reacted poorly to it, and they had to put a spin on the statement. If HG came out and said that RTSC did mediocre, the toy lines are selling quite poorly and can't generate enough interest to make new ones, what do you think possible investors, distributors, let alone, the fans, would think? That's what I don't get. Their fans simply believe something based on their word alone. Granted, most companies will always paint a pretty picture for those with interest, but their spokesperson(s) talk from time to time. The fact that HG staff do a lot of panels and the sort, can put them at a disadvantage. It gets them caught up telling a little too much, then they have to retract. Then, as times told by a few here, they've been caught up saying something, then denying that it was ever said.

If someone's gonna believe them, that's up to them, but eventually, these things are catching up to them. Thus, the reason why there seem to be less and less fans over there.