HG and Robotech Debates

[Gubaba]

Why not stop now? Protoculture needs to go... and it essentially already has gone by the end of the first Shadow Chronicles movie. Eliminating protoculture from Robotech also serves as a fantastic reason why all new mechs would have to be made and new mechs are really the name of the game when it comes to sequels.

So, no Protoculture. No old characters. No old story concepts or ideas.

Why burden it with the name Robotech? If it has nothing to do with the series, why saddle it with a title that will turn more people off than on?

If there were millins, hell, even tens of thousands of people clamoring for a completely new addition to venerable Robotech brand of epic storytelling </sarcasm>, then I could understand.

But there aren't. Even in the niche markets of anime or sci-fi, Robotech is a VERY small niche. What's the point of continuing it at all?

[Seto Kaiba]

There are a few individuals who feel the same way. But from how it sounds HG and it legion platoon of fans doesn't feel the same way.

They want to re-live the Macross saga of Rick, Minmay and Lisa or at least have a decent ending.

It doesn't just "sound" that way, it IS that way. At least, that's what the ratings, the merchandise sales, and the Robotech.com user polls. If those results are anything to go by, the vast majority of Robotech fans and casual viewers don't give a tinker's damn about any part of Robotech other than the Macross Saga.

And again, since the "Robotech" brand name is not well-remembered (or well-liked), why bother to use it at all?

[...]

If it's going to be completely unconnected, why connect it at all?

Because Harmony Gold's track record has provided ample proof that they can't write original material to save their souls, and what little they've managed to produce appears to be selling primarily due to its loose association with the "original" Robotech TV series. If they didn't have that association, nobody would care about their decidedly sub-par products.

[Gubaba]

Because Harmony Gold's track record has provided ample proof that they can't write original material to save their souls, and what little they've managed to produce appears to be selling primarily due to its loose association with the "original" Robotech TV series. If they didn't have that association, nobody would care about their decidedly sub-par products.

But this is what people in this thread are saying they WOULD LIKE to see happen...a Robotech unburdened by the past. My feeling is then it would cease to be Robotech, and the reason to put the name on it is for sales value. But the sales value in the name is negligible...so why bother?

Maybe I really AM having trouble communicating tonight...

[Einherjar]

But this is what people in this thread are saying they WOULD LIKE to see happen...a Robotech unburdened by the past. My feeling is then it would cease to be Robotech, and the reason to put the name on it is for sales value. But the sales value in the name is negligible...so why bother?

That's really just HG's problem for insisting to be redundant these days. It's also WB's for believing this could be profitable even if they have to build everything from the ground up.

[jenius]

If the story is going to be set in the Robotech universe (even if it's a different era in that universe not directly affecting the original cast, or even an alternate version of the universe) and the story can be told in such a way as to be inviting to new fans then it wouldn't really make sense to ditch the name Robotech. Even if the fans are a tiny niche they're obviously quite dedicated so why not take advantage of that? Heck, they even have a voracious appetite for merchandise, that's not the kind of thing you turn your back on. The "ditch the name" campaign only works if you really believe that more people will be turned off by the name then will gravitate toward it. Since the vast majority of new viewers wouldn't have heard of Robotech they wouldn't be turned off by it.

Just so were clear, I'm in the "I don't think the name matters so much so keep it (even though it sounds really dated) but do move Robotech in a direction where it is completely unhindered by the first three wars and Sentinels." I think the Shadow series should be a necessary cleansing for Robotech to wrap up all those loose ends and give the fans the send-off to the characters they want. Then, a future Robotech show can just be any futuristic military show featuring transformable crafts. Heck, at that point the "Robotech" brand can just be used as a vehicle to import dubbed Japanese anime again.

Edited September 15, 2009 by jenius

[Gubaba]

If the story is going to be set in the Robotech universe (even if it's a different era in that universe not directly affecting the original cast, or even an alternate version of the universe) and the story can be told in such a way as to be inviting to new fans then it wouldn't really make sense to ditch the name Robotech. Even if the fans are a tiny niche they're obviously quite dedicated so why not take advantage of that? Heck, they even have a voracious appetite for merchandise, that's not the kind of thing you turn your back on. The "ditch the name" campaign only works if you really believe that more people will be turned off by the name then will gravitate toward it. Since the vast majority of new viewers wouldn't have heard of Robotech they wouldn't be turned off by it.

...except for the fact that it sounds dated and lame?

[jenius]

ha, I was editing when you replied. Yes, it sounds dated and lame, but a lot of stuff sounds dated and lame and is still successful. Call it R-Tech, or some fancy name and then put "from the Robotech Sagas" somewhere down below. The name is still the only thing that HG has that they can market. Imagine them going somewhere and trying to pitch a totally NEW and unproven series. They'd be laughed out of the room.

[Keith]

Why don't they just call it 'Shadow Riders" oh wait...

[VFTF1]

You know - I actually agree with Jenius here.

I mean - when I think back to playing the Paladium roll playing games in 5th grade...heck - my Game Master came up with tons of awesome stories for us to take part in - all within the frame work of Robotech, and NONE OF THEM EVER HAD LISA, RICK OR ANY KEY ROBOTECH CHARACTER IN THEM. This was partially because none of us had seen the series and I think we didn't even know there was a Robotech cartoon. But the template that the roll playing game set up was interesting enough on its' own.

But see... this would necessitate that Harmony Gold actually came up with not just a plot and characters but more fundamentally - a CONCEPT.

Because - what is the CONCEPT behind Robotech?

In Macross - the concept is all about music as an animating force that either preserves or reawakens what is good in humanity and tries to protect us from the darker sides of our pursuit of science. Science, if you will, is used as a tool to spread and defend culture - but sometimes we see that science can be perverted to obstruct culture or even (as in Macross Plus) that culture itself can be used for evil purposes. In any case - there's a conceptual framework there that - for better or for worse - gets explored more and more thoroughly from many angles. And it is a unique framework. No other mecha anime is built on this premise.

Let's keep going.

What is the conceptual framework of Gundam? I'm now discovering that it's Newtypes and the effects of space expansion on the human brain and the dilemna of cleansing humanity's evils and building a new civilization of esper like being that will be the next stage of human evolution... fine....

Gurren Lagann? The conceptual framework is the struggle against the "No" in human life and the fear that "Yes" could eventually lead to "No" in the sense of humanity's growth in power becoming the harbinger of its' own destruction. All of this takes place within the framework of Yoko's boobs which bounce this concept around this way and that. Fine.

Transformers? SENTIENT living robots from an alien planet as opposed to just transforming mecha.

I could go on here. Now - not everyone is going to like every anime, nor are they going to find every conceptual framework as compelling as others...but the point here is that most well known anime have a conceptual framework to start with...

But...

What about Robotech?

What's up with that?

As far as I can tell, if you had to really get down to the basics, It's about a powerful flower that can serve as a feul source and that various aliens throughout the universe fight over?

And the source of this flower's power? Beats me. It just is there. Why a flower? Who knows? Because the word "protoculture" sounds like a botony project from Junior High? And...and...that's it? I think so.

Is that really a concept? I mean - It's like me going to Warner brothers and saying - hey - I have an idea. These aliens attack earth and people fight back in transforming airplanes and the whole war is over a flower that gives super powerful er..super powers.

It's like. Ok. Why? Where's the attraction here?

It's just not enough to sustain itself as an interesting story.

Everything that was interesting in Macross - Robotech kills. The true meaning of Protoculture - Dead on Arrival in the Robotech sage. The romantic traingle - KILLED by dragging it out turning Lisa and Rick into the Jetsons and Minnmey into the Intergalactic Whore of the Universe. The mecha? Yeah...I can sure see how they went from the VF-1 to the Alpha fighter. The designs overlap really well. I mean - you can see the process of evolution from the one to the other pretty clearly. And it also makes perfect sense that as soon as Robotech moved to Alphas and Betas - it stayed there and there will never ever ever be a better mecha, which is why there's no need to design new ones.

Oh yeah - then there are the Zendradi. You know - the bio-genetic creations of an interstellar race who were purged of culture and made "perfect" war machines, which was a great harm to them - and who then had to re-learn and re-discover culture and we get to see them cope with this... yeah...well - that whole plot line also goes out the door. As do the Zendradi really.

But - Robotech does give us Jack Baker and Karen Penn.

They are interesting because he's a jock and she's blonde.

Pete

[Funkenstein]

It would be hilarious if they called a sequel to Robotech TV, "The New Adventures of Macross".

[Ghost Train]

The next Robotech trilogy should adapt the following shows into 1 semi-cohesive package:

1) Strike Witches

2) K-On!

3) Macross 7 (cuz we need a Macross in there somewhere to continue the tradition)

[Penguin]

Back when I cared about and enjoyed Robotech, I always saw the concept as humanity's resilience and spirit in the face of destruction. At least, when I too played the Palladium RPG, that's how I interpreted it. The destruction of Earth in Macross, the continued disintegration through Southern Cross, and then with the Invid invasion the final conquering of the planet, but in the end Earth is reclaimed and there is a chance to rebuild. All in all, I thought it was a decent cycle, back before all the sturm und drang with Harmony Gold soured what I had enjoyed about Robotech.

Whether the creators had that concept in mind or I'm just meta-projecting my own theme on to it I can't say, but then again I don't think that really matters. "The author is dead" and all that...

[Whamhammer]

I don't really want to get all itemized, because, to be honest, I was confused by your first response, and I was confused by this one.

I *think* my original post was clear (and I read it again to make sure), so all of this "Why didn't you say so in the first place"...well, I did say so in the first place.

And I'm curious as to why you thought I would be leaning towards saying Macross is a household name. Because i can't find any place that hints at that.

So, either my communication skills are worse than I thought, or your reading comprehension is. I'm honestly not sure which it is.

Let me say this to be clear, I'm not here to insult you or the others here, nor do I believe thats the intention of anyone else. I am here to discuss. How about this, If you need me to narrow something down , askme. If I need you (or anyone else) to narrow something down, I'll ask. I , myself, try to look at these posts in an essay form. I also try to take into account that we all arent professional writers (which I am not, although I played one on t.v. ).

Honestly, I wasnt sure that you were attesting that Macross was a household name, but your arguements make it sound like it does.

1) In the sum of a few sentences you mention twice of H.G.'s failure of to make Robotech into a household name and then followed up and proclaimed the "SENSATION" and success that is Macross Frontier.

2)You also suggested that Robotech (H.G.'s) of using Frontier to prop themselves up for thier own gain.

That gave me the impression that you were implying that Robotech , which was not a household name (as you indicated twice) was using Macross (Frontier) (a "SENSATION' and a success) to move themselves forward. One can argue that someone would only want to use success to of others to move themselves forward and a good measure of success is if it is a household name. If Macross(Frontier) is a "SENSATION" (a great success) and H.G. is going to use it to forward thier product (as you suggested) that could lead someone to suggesting that you were suggesting that Macross is a household name. Does this help you understand where I see that?

[Whamhammer]

...except for the fact that it sounds dated and lame?

So if H.G. had made Shadow Chronicles "Earth Expeditionary Force :The Shadow Chronicles" , would it have been less dated and lame for you?

[Whamhammer]

But this is what people in this thread are saying they WOULD LIKE to see happen...a Robotech unburdened by the past. My feeling is then it would cease to be Robotech, and the reason to put the name on it is for sales value. But the sales value in the name is negligible...so why bother?

Maybe I really AM having trouble communicating tonight...

You can have Robotech and not have Rick and Lisa. You can have Robotech without the Valk' ,the Super Dimensional Battlefortress One, or the Destroids.

[Whamhammer]

That's really just HG's problem for insisting to be redundant these days. It's also WB's for believing this could be profitable even if they have to build everything from the ground up.

YES!!!! THATS WHAT IM SAYING!!!!!!!!!! H.G. spend some money get better writers and planning staff!!!!!!!!

[Moly_Sigang]

link:

http://www.robotech.com/community/forum/re...&forumid=31

Once again MEMO is misinterpreting Tommy Yune's statement so to give this impression that Tatsunoko owns those '41 images'. The Japanese ruling gave the rights to those '41 images' to Studio Nue and not Tatsunoko.

[HappyPenguins]

So if H.G. had made Shadow Chronicles "Earth Expeditionary Force :The Shadow Chronicles" , would it have been less dated and lame for you?

what about.... "Boobs: The Shadow Chronicles"

seems more appropriate

[Funkenstein]

Studio Nue? Tatsunoko? They're Japanese, so its basically the same person.

[DarrinG]

Yep ROBOTECH sounds dated and lame.

But not as bad as STAR WARS, and we know how that went.

I mean think about it - S T A R W A R S - there is nothing lamer. And STAR TREK?

If its great it will be great whether they call it Robotech or not.

My bet is that it will still be the original Macross Saga "re-imagined", if its actually made.

There will be a skull and cross-bones on the 1S but we'll recognize little else . . .

[Whamhammer]

While I agree with the overall sentiment that Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles's faults largely had nothing to do with the absence of Macross characters, I do think it bears mentioning that the presence of one Macross Saga character (Rick Hunter) was one of the movie's main selling points, and figured prominently in the pre-release hype.

The best they've done for original mechanical designs are some robotic equivalents of well-known animals (saber-toothed tigers) and minor variations on established designs (like the "Super Shadow Fighter" and "Synchro Beta").

The minor vehicle variations make perfect sence, the SC is set during and shortly after the last episode. To intro' something radically new immediately would be like using F-86's in "Pearl Harbor" or "Saving Private Ryan". Or to have "Oddball" command an M-60 "Patton" or M-1 "Abrahms" in "Kellys Heroes".

[EXO]

what about.... "Boobs: The Shadow Chronicles"

seems more appropriate

If it as called that , I probably would have watched it already.

[Funkenstein]

I think the point that Seto was making was that HG is still clinging to Mospeada designs while adding few new original designs. Take the difference from Macross TV and Macross Plus. We start with the VF-1 and transition to the VF-11,YF-19 and YF-21. We also get new ship designs and a completely non-related story. That's probably what makes it easier to follow Macross than Robotech, as each Macross series is self-contained with their own designs,characters and stories.

[Einherjar]

It helps that they take 1-5 minutes an episode to effectively go over the important stuff that's happened before in the series for new viewers. It's not directly related to the story, but explains why we're here at the moment in a grand way.

link:

http://www.robotech.com/community/forum/re...&forumid=31

Once again MEMO is misinterpreting Tommy Yune's statement so to give this impression that Tatsunoko owns those '41 images'. The Japanese ruling gave the rights to those '41 images' to Studio Nue and not Tatsunoko.

The time indexes were a bit excessive. In fact, him breaking down everything Tommy to the word is too obsessive. He's holding him extremely accountable for everything he said at a casual event. I guess he's riding the calm they've created from suspending people like Seto and jenius from the site. The thread will probably get locked too when he loses control of the discussion, since no one there can really have a serious conversation about it.

[HappyPenguins]

If it as called that , I probably would have watched it already.

no you wouldn't as the designs were atrocious

link:

http://www.robotech.com/community/forum/re...&forumid=31

Once again MEMO is misinterpreting Tommy Yune's statement so to give this impression that Tatsunoko owns those '41 images'. The Japanese ruling gave the rights to those '41 images' to Studio Nue and not Tatsunoko.

yeah I saw that mentioned on RTX too lol, where he locked it so neither Seto

nor myself could correct him. *sigh*

Edited September 15, 2009 by HappyPenguins

[Einherjar]

yeah I saw that mentioned on RTX too lol, where he locked it so neither Seto

nor myself could correct him. *sigh*

He's also breaking the rules he made on his own site posting it in the wrong place.

On the top of the Robotechx forums most likely written by him, in clear view to any visitors to the forum:

TATSU,HG/BW ,SN LEGALITY DEBATES, TOPICS, AND POST WILL BE DELETED EXEMPT FOR THE CANNON FODDER FORUM WHERE IT WILL BELONG. NEED TO LOG IN TO SEE FORUM. THERE WILL BE ONLY AN INFORMATION THREAD IN THE LIVE ACTION FORM.

So apparently he's exempt to his own rules.

YES!!!! THATS WHAT IM SAYING!!!!!!!!!! H.G. spend some money get better writers and planning staff!!!!!!!!

Or they can stop playing around altogether with their overblown experiment and work WITH Japanese companies to bring Macross to the U.S. (stop being greedy about it). To finally make some real money for a change.

Edited September 15, 2009 by Einherjar

[Whamhammer]

He's also breaking the rules he made on his own site posting it in the wrong place.

On the top of the Robotechx forums most likely written by him, in clear view to any visitors to the forum:

So apparently he's exempt to his own rules.

Or they can stop playing around altogether with their overblown experiment and work WITH Japanese companies to bring Macross to the U.S. (stop being greedy about it). To finally make some real money for a change.

Ive never been against H.G. working with the powers that be (in this case big West?) to bring the "total" Macross product over to the U.S. and other markets that H.G. has influence in and help distribute it. As a matter of fact, I'm all for it.

As far as them stop making Robotech all together, thats where you and I differ. I understand that you dont like Robotech, thats fine, your entitled to your opinions and beliefs. I like Robotech and I am just as entitled to my opinions and beliefs. I think they can make future projects and help distribute Macross's products, especially if there is a deal made that is mutually beneficial to Big West and H.G. .

[EXO]

I'm against HG and BW hooking up because I don't believe it'll benifit anyone but HG who so far has only supported inferior products. I believe I made this point over and over but here it goes again. It wouldnt mean better prices for us on Yamato products either. I mean look at the Alphas, there's not much of a difference between domestic and Aoshima prices. At the end you'll be able to find any of those on clearance unless the Robotech version goes up in price because they didn't make enough of them, then the Aoshima version becomes the cheaper option. I just as soon prefer that HG keep they lousy low budget mits off premium Japanese products. And HG support doesnt mean anything for these toys. Beagle Mospeada... cancelled... Megahouse... uncomplete...

Which company has a complete line? CMs! Which company doesn't have the HG sticker??? 3 guesses and they all start with a "C" and they all end with an "Ms". Overpriced yet still successful.

No thanks to HG/BW deal... don't do them any favors.

[RedWolf]

Bridges have been burned years ago so either company wont have a relationship.

We may blame Tatsunoko for part of the responsibility but in the end HG is Douche Inc..

[Whamhammer]

I think the point that Seto was making was that HG is still clinging to Mospeada designs while adding few new original designs. Take the difference from Macross TV and Macross Plus. We start with the VF-1 and transition to the VF-11,YF-19 and YF-21. We also get new ship designs and a completely non-related story. That's probably what makes it easier to follow Macross than Robotech, as each Macross series is self-contained with their own designs,characters and stories.

Thats all fine and good, but Ive been talking pretty much the whole time about Shadow Chronicles and its "follow-up" Shadow Rising. New Gen and Shadow Chronicles are set circa 2040 where the "fighters of the line" are the Alphas and Betas and thier derivatives (Shadow Alphas, Betas and "Super-Shadow" fighters). Shadow Chronicles is set in the timeline of the last two episodes of the New Generation and within a couple days of the Invid leaving the Earth. The mecha presented are within realistic expectations of what could have been developed, especially since the R&D guys would still be following up on projects on fighting the Invid.

As far the fighters following in the lines of previous equipment. Why should they?

Forty years ago the U.S. air arsenal's main line aircraft was the F-4 Phantom multirole, the Navy was begining to ramp up the F-14 Tomcat which was a pure air to air machine and designed to protect the carrier task force (towards the end of its life it was modded to prefrom air support duties) . The F-4's , A-7's and A6's (and in the Eighties F/A-18's) made up the majority of the Navies airpower. The Air Force had the F-4 also , but was also working towards the F-15 and in the mid-seventies the F-16 as well (not to mention one one my fav's the A-10).

Today most of the aircraft I mentioned have been retired or relegated to second or third line duty ( there hasnt even been any true air wars to spur innovation in this field), and the new generation of planes comming out are as similar to the Phantom II and the Tomcat as the Tomcat and Phantom II have to WWII prop planes or Korean war vintage jets that filled a similar role. With time and neccessity things change.

[VF5SS]

The aircraft tech talk is kind of pointless. A product needs to change with the times. Having callbacks is fine, but literally making CGI models of 20 plus year old designs doesn't help to settle new viewers into your franchise.

[Seto Kaiba]

The minor vehicle variations make perfect sence, the SC is set during and shortly after the last episode. To intro' something radically new immediately would be like using F-86's in "Pearl Harbor" or "Saving Private Ryan". Or to have "Oddball" command an M-60 "Patton" or M-1 "Abrahms" in "Kellys Heroes".

Or like having the main fighter in service completely replaced by a far less capable one for no adequately explored reason... hey wait a tic...

(That still didn't stop Tommy from designing a new fighter from a previously unmentioned base in the outer solar system, by the way)

The time indexes were a bit excessive. In fact, him breaking down everything Tommy to the word is too obsessive. He's holding him extremely accountable for everything he said at a casual event. I guess he's riding the calm they've created from suspending people like Seto and jenius from the site. The thread will probably get locked too when he loses control of the discussion, since no one there can really have a serious conversation about it.

Yeah, well, that's MEMO for you. He's a long-time follower of the "if you can't dazzle them with your knowledge, baffle them with your bullshit" school of debate. He isn't just trying to hold Tommy accountable for every casual remark made during that informal event either... he's also putting rather a lot of words into Tommy's mouth. Still, there're a few people left who'll continue the battle against MEMO and Maverick's ignorant bullshit.

He's also breaking the rules he made on his own site posting it in the wrong place.

Yeah, that's MEMO... what does he care about rules, so long as he can make his bullshit claims and stop people from refuting them.

[Whamhammer]

So, no Protoculture. No old characters. No old story concepts or ideas.

Why burden it with the name Robotech? If it has nothing to do with the series, why saddle it with a title that will turn more people off than on?

If there were millins, hell, even tens of thousands of people clamoring for a completely new addition to venerable Robotech brand of epic storytelling </sarcasm>, then I could understand.

But there aren't. Even in the niche markets of anime or sci-fi, Robotech is a VERY small niche. What's the point of continuing it at all?

<begin sarcasm> I totally agree . Due to the fact many Macross fans get a burr up thier butt at the mention of Robotech, H.G. should just shut thier doors and not make anything. The world will be at peace again.<end sarcasm>

Theres a saying about auto mechanincs, if they arent complaining, they arent happy.Trust me on this, auto mechanics love to complain, and theyll find something to complain about if the previous complaint is resolved. I think the scenario is the same here. After you kill Robotech, you'll have to find another series that conflicts with Macross. Will it be that Mospeada is a total rip-off of Macross? Or that Project A-Ko insulted Macross's integrity in some scenes? Or some new series I havent even seen yet has some big battle-carrier thing and confronts aliens "and that just aint right man!!!" ???

No one puts a gun to your head and says "buy Shadow Chronicles and Shadow Rising" in a thick Russian accent. You can get a group together that wants Robotech dead, raise some money along side of Big West so they can give H.G. an offer they cant refuse. Or make an appeal with Big West and H.G. to work together to bring Macross here for you. H.G. does want to make money, an effort to bring Macross to the U.S. can be equally beneficial for the two groups.

[Whamhammer]

Or like having the main fighter in service completely replaced by a far less capable one for no adequately explored reason... hey wait a tic...

(That still didn't stop Tommy from designing a new fighter from a previously unmentioned base in the outer solar system, by the way)

Like that never been done before. Initially the F-4 Phantom wasnt even desinged with guns because the latest selling point was missiles in air to air combat , then the Mig pilots started dancing in close so as the missiles were ineffective would that be akin to your refference? .Which main fighter are you arguing this time?

[Whamhammer]

The aircraft tech talk is kind of pointless. A product needs to change with the times. Having callbacks is fine, but literally making CGI models of 20 plus year old designs doesn't help to settle new viewers into your franchise.

Thats your opinion.