HG and Robotech Debates

[VFTF1]

You're probably right... I might be getting confused because I remember that in Robotech there were two of them. One was the beedy eyed guy, and the other was a younger scientist... I always thought Grant was the beedy eyed one and Lang was the other dude...

I really need to stop wasting my time with Macross and get back into Robotech

Pete

[Freiflug88]

My powers of pointless recollection name him Emil Lang, I think. He shows up again in the Sentinels footage with the same eyes, and may or may not have died off-screen inbetween Prelude to... and Shadow Chronicles.

You are right Penguin, his name was Emil Lang. They kept the black beady eyes because according to the comics his eyes were changed after coming in contact with Protoculture. I think Dr. Lang and Exodore died off-screen in that tiny research ship where they found Janice after trying to rescue Hunter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emil_Lang_%28...al_character%29

[Funkenstein]

There's a lot of dying off screen in Robotech...

[VF5SS]

Yeah that black eyed scientist guy only appears in background character splash pages in most Macross books. Yotchan has more mention that he does. He's still nowhere near as bad as Major Jonathan, whom despite being in less than 10 minutes in his own episode during Mospeada has received a vast backstory. I understand that everyone having a story is the true Star Wars way, but trying to band aid that onto Japanese shows is just retarded.

[Einherjar]

Speaking of Dr. Emil Lang, I found out recently that they made Scott Bernard his godson in the novels. Everyone is related in Robotech. He's new blood to the series at that point, but almost groomed to be famous like the rest of them.

Edited September 12, 2009 by Einherjar

[VF5SS]

Aren't they all Scientologists as well?

[Einherjar]

Sometimes I like wikipedia, even if it isn't accurate all the time. Funny as hell when people use it to vent out frustrations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmony_Gold_...pyright_Dispute

Harmony Gold is currently issuing cease and desist orders against sites displaying images and trailers from the upcoming MechWarrior (reboot) video game. They claim that the images portray 'mechs that they own the rights to, according to a legal settlement from 1996. The videogame developers claim that the machines portrayed are significantly different from the Macross originals to not violate the 1996 agreement. In addition, Harmony Gold's license for Macross came from Tatsunoko, but Japanese courts ruled that it was Studio Nue (who made the show) that controlled the Macross intellectual property. The license Tatsunoko was given was for distribution only, and did not allow Tatsunoko to control the intelletual property. Thus, many believe that Harmony Gold has no real legal right to the designs. Many Battletech and Mechwarrior fans hold a negative view of Harmony Gold, since the company continues to issue cease and desist letters and threatens legal action on properties the fans believe the company has no legal right over anymore.

[Jasonc]

Harmony Gold is currently issuing cease and desist orders against sites displaying images and trailers from the upcoming MechWarrior (reboot) video game. They claim that the images portray 'mechs that they own the rights to, according to a legal settlement from 1996. The videogame developers claim that the machines portrayed are significantly different from the Macross originals to not violate the 1996 agreement. In addition, Harmony Gold's license for Macross came from Tatsunoko, but Japanese courts ruled that it was Studio Nue (who made the show) that controlled the Macross intellectual property. The license Tatsunoko was given was for distribution only, and did not allow Tatsunoko to control the intelletual property. Thus, many believe that Harmony Gold has no real legal right to the designs. Many Battletech and Mechwarrior fans hold a negative view of Harmony Gold, since the company continues to issue cease and desist letters and threatens legal action on properties the fans believe the company has no legal right over anymore.

--------------------

If I had a site up, I'd keep it up. It seems like another scare tactic that is pissing off more people than protecting any implied rights they do, or think they have. They're gonn run themselves into a corner one day, where they don't have enough fans, but enough "haters" or "naysayers" (the terms HG and the fans like to use) to maybe pull the plug.

[Einherjar]

It seems like another scare tactic that is pissing off more people than protecting any implied rights they do, or think they have. They're gonn run themselves into a corner one day, where they don't have enough fans, but enough "haters" or "naysayers" (the terms HG and the fans like to use) to maybe pull the plug.

What do they really gain if they win in this situation? Besides getting some punitive damage money, in the public's mind they are maintaining their right to use a very old mecha design. However, for all the effort and upheaval they're causing, they really have no use for it in the immediate future except in the RPG books. It equals to about 1-3 pages of one or more books/revisions of a book and 1/3 of a show they can't elaborate much about. They'll be lucky if it even turns up in the LAM.

[Jasonc]

What do they really gain if they win in this situation? Besides getting some punitive damage money, in the public's mind they are maintaining their right to use a very old mecha design. However, for all the effort and upheaval they're causing, they really have no use for it in the immediate future except in the RPG books. It equals to about 1-3 pages of one or more books/revisions of a book and 1/3 of a show they can't elaborate much about. They'll be lucky if it even turns up in the LAM.

You know what they'll prbably do is take Mechwarrior's design and use it in the LAM. That way, they will claim it looks nothing like the Tomahawk, and get around the design. (Sarcasm On) It all makes sense now, Re-envisioning Macross is OK for only them, too. Maybe they have the rights to anything that looks like it could be in SDF:Macross (Sarcasm Off)

[Wanzerfan]

And James Earl Jones WAS "the guy from Dr. Strangelovee" - he played the token black dude on the strategic bomber :-) (a role later "re-cast", albeit in more "serious" hues in the nuclear war movie "By Dawn's Early Light")

As for Protoculture - If I recall correctly, they made a big deal out of that one "Doctor's" eyes being all black in SDFM TV. I think Robotech called him Dr. Grant, even though the dude was just "superfluous technician number 1" in SDFM TV and made two key appearances (first to inform Global that the superdimmensional drive had been replaced by fairy dust, and later to debate human nature in "Satan's Ninios"). He always had these beedy black eyes in contradistinction to everybody else who have wide anime eyes.

The Robotech novels specifically describe that when you get high on Protoculture, your eyes get all beady. And Dr. Grant's eyes would be all beady because he made contact with Protoculture in the form of Fairy Dust.

The thing I don't get is...why the elaborate plot?

Why couldn't they just be more literal in their translations and - given that they had to syndicate 85 episodes - they could have made "Robotech" a kind of general name for "Anime time" - and "Robotech" would then have just been an umbrella name for three seperate anime brought over from Japan.

I guess they must have just really wanted to tinker with it and "westernize" it. Though I'm not exactly sure why...

Pete

Pete

That man in that episode of the series was "Chief Engineer Lang" (Dr. Emil Lang) as Gloval called him at the end of the episode of Space Fold, not Dr. Grant. The funny thing is that the novels call him "Dr. Lazlo Zand" in the section Reconstruction Blues while in the Robotech animated series he was Dr. Lang.

[Einherjar]

That man in that episode of the series was "Chief Engineer Lang" (Dr. Emil Lang) as Gloval called him at the end of the episode of Space Fold, not Dr. Grant. The funny thing is that the novels call him "Dr. Lazlo Zand" in the section Reconstruction Blues while in the Robotech animated series he was Dr. Lang.

He likes to joke a lot.

Lazlo Zand and Emil Lang are two completely different people attributed to the same looking character in the show. They worked together, then one got jealous of another, leading to Zand having a VERY creepy obsession on Dana. He ended up either a Protoculture plant or jailed up in PTSC.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Einherjar

[Roy Focker]

I heard a mention of Zand in one of the few Robotech Novels I read but no idea where he appears in the series. A novel character only I assume. Not sure I understood his connection to Dana but I remember in the End of the Circle they made her psychotic or something. Attacking some guy in the end. Don't remember Dana talking about that obsessed Zand touching her (or what ever he did) in the Robotech Masters either.

Nor do I get the Shaping or the other mystical mumbo jumbo.

[Wanzerfan]

I heard a mention of Zand in one of the few Robotech Novels I read but no idea where he appears in the series. A novel character only I assume. Not sure I understood his connection to Dana but I remember in the End of the Circle they made her psychotic or something. Attacking some guy in the end. Don't remember Dana talking about that obsessed Zand touching her (or what ever he did) in the Robotech Masters either.

Nor do I get the Shaping or the other mystical mumbo jumbo.

In the novels Zand becomes the Lang of the Masters Saga. Very unhinged fellow, even more so when he injects himself with "nutrent fluid" harveseted from an Invid mecha found in the SDF-1 in the novel The Zentraedi Rebellion (otherwise known as the first Robotech novel to ever fully drop the "F-Bomb").

[VFTF1]

I remember that dude and his obsession with Dana. He agrees to "look after" Dana or something because her parents are going away on the SDF-3? Or something like that? I dunno...

Also - there was one novel which featured a bunch of computer hackers. That was a pretty "original" idea - too bad it was written so drop dead boringly that I never actually read through it...

But I do remember "Zendradi Rebellion" as being one of the better novels.

Pete

[Gubaba]

I remember that dude and his obsession with Dana. He agrees to "look after" Dana or something because her parents are going away on the SDF-3? Or something like that? I dunno...

Also - there was one novel which featured a bunch of computer hackers. That was a pretty "original" idea - too bad it was written so drop dead boringly that I never actually read through it...

But I do remember "Zendradi Rebellion" as being one of the better novels.

Pete

You got further than I did in the series...I read the main twelve novels, the five Sentinels novels, and The End of the Circle. By the Sentinels, I was really reading them more out of a sense of duty than for any kind of pleasure. As such, I remember nearly nothing about the Sentinels books (except thinking that having mecha that looked like twisted version of Rick and Lisa was a pretty stupid idea) and The End of the Circle (except thinking that Minmay and Rem getting caught in a time loop was a pretty stupid idea). I do remember getting impatient and annoyed with the books...I just can't remember WHY.

And it's funny...my memory is usually pretty good, but for all the dicussion about Lazlo Zand and his connection with Dana, or the SDF-1's fold drive reappearing, or the Shapings of Protoculture...none of it is ringing any bells.

Hell, I can't even remember why I even picked up the first Sentinels book, since I was well over my interest in Robotech at that point. Must have been the same reason that I kept picking up books by Piers Anthony, even though I knew I would hate them before I finished...

[Macross007]

Guess what happened guys ? Maverick_LSC locked the Macross-robotech legal thread ( http://www.robotech.com/community/forum/re...mp;pagenumber=9 ) because he was loosing face against Seto. Seto "find pleasure in watching the suffering of others" he wrote. Seriously guys, we don't need proofs anymore to confirm that the mods at robotech.com are not only nuts but also sad people. May God help them (if God has patience in dealing with idiots of course ...).

[Gubaba]

Guess what happened guys ? Maverick_LSC locked the Macross-robotech legal thread ( http://www.robotech.com/community/forum/re...mp;pagenumber=9 ) because he was loosing face against Seto. Seto "find pleasure in watching the suffering of others" he wrote. Seriously guys, we don't need proofs anymore to confirm that the mods at robotech.com are not only nuts but also sad people. May God help them (if God has patience in dealing with idiots of course ...).

And...nobody is surprised.

As I said before, I think too many egos got involved. Hell, for a while there it looked like everyone was cheering on their favorite football team rather than talking about a couple of lawsuits.

Again, I don't think any of this really matters. Yes, it's annoying to read Memo's posts as he natters on about stuff he doesn't understand. Yes, it's frustrating to see people who know what they're talking about get quashed by mods.

But ultimately, it makes no difference. If every Robotech fan in the world believed HG has all the rights to Macross, it wouldn't make it so.

So let it be. Let them be bullies, let them lock threads and ban people. Let the site run itself into the ground.

As long as the RT fans don't come here trying to turn Macross World into Robotech.com 2.0, why should we care what they do in their own playground?

[Keith]

And...nobody is surprised.

As I said before, I think too many egos got involved. Hell, for a while there it looked like everyone was cheering on their favorite football team rather than talking about a couple of lawsuits.

Again, I don't think any of this really matters. Yes, it's annoying to read Memo's posts as he natters on about stuff he doesn't understand. Yes, it's frustrating to see people who know what they're talking about get quashed by mods.

But ultimately, it makes no difference. If every Robotech fan in the world believed HG has all the rights to Macross, it wouldn't make it so.

So let it be. Let them be bullies, let them lock threads and ban people. Let the site run itself into the ground.

As long as the RT fans don't come here trying to turn Macross World into Robotech.com 2.0, why should we care what they do in their own playground?

And if they do come here, let them be browbeat by superior entertainment & logical arguments!

[Jasonc]

So, I went here, http://www.robotech.com/community/forum/re...mp;pagenumber=9, and realized that it finally got locked. Maverlick did the wise thing in saving some mod face there, as it was looking really bad for them. It seems Maverick understood enough, but not enough to know what the real argument was about. He seemed like someone jumping into an argument about apples, and arguing about some oranges in the bunch. Memo, Hmmm, I may be cool with Memo, but if you read on here Memo, I think you're reading too far into what HG has said. What they've always said is true, they do own the rights to all things Robotech, which includes all the footage used in its making. Also, they have the ability to use the designs for product, i.e. rpg books, games, comics, toys, etc. That does not equate to making new works using those same designs. That intellectual property win, is strictly for BW, and does stretch over here. It doesn't change the contracts that Tats and HG made, probably because those never included new works using the old desings from SDF:Macross. Memo, since I'm not on rt.com, I hope you read here. You and I have talked to many people who "know" about this stuff, and while I see where you are basing the claim from, your outcome of it is wrong. HG by themselves will not make or use Macross designs in any new film, movie or whatnot, unless a new deal was made, and so far, that hasn't happened. As it stands now, HG can "own all things Robotech." While vague, it simply states just that... they own whatever used in original Robotech, not for new stuff.

It really doesn't help out too much for either side, and there is no "winner" in all this. HG is left without being able to use any more of it's most popular series for new works, and BW, while a huge success, is not able to brach out outside it's borders. I think back on what I heard about the trip HG took to Japan to bring Macross over here, and what they tried to do, and I can understand why BW would not want to do business with them. Things could've been different, but the coin fell the way it did, and here we are today. Oh well, I find it funny that it only took this long to finally lock that stupid thread linked up above.

[Gubaba]

I think back on what I heard about the trip HG took to Japan to bring Macross over here, and what they tried to do, and I can understand why BW would not want to do business with them. Things could've been different, but the coin fell the way it did, and here we are today.

Really? When was that, and what happened?

[Einherjar]

It really doesn't help out too much for either side, and there is no "winner" in all this. HG is left without being able to use any more of it's most popular series for new works, and BW, while a huge success, is not able to brach out outside it's borders.

I disagree, I think the current rate of globalization (the broad definition) is working as an advantage for BW while what HG had as just an American company with licenses and stuff are slowly disappearing.

[Gubaba]

I disagree, I think the current rate of globalization (the broad definition) is working as an advantage for BW while what HG had as just an American company with licenses and stuff are slowly disappearing.

I think that's somewhat true. Of course, a lot of Macross merchandise is being bought by people outside of Japan. DVD sales might be smaller, but toys, models, artbooks, CDs...all of these are being exported.

But remember, Robotech is still big in Latin America and China (although I've heard that Macross Frontier has loosened Robotech's grip on China...not sure if it's true, though).

The thing is...there is simply MUCH more Macross merchandise than there is Robotech. What does Robotech have? A smallish collection of toys...a CD...too many DVDs...some coffee mugs and things of that nature...and that's it. Even the books and comics are no longer being printed (except, I'd guess, Art of the Shadow Chronicles).

By sheer VOLUME, Macross is at an advantage. And, as you suggest, the internet makes it easier for anyone anywhere to buy this merchandise.

[VFTF1]

Re: Volume of Macross Product vs. Volume of Robotech Product:

That there in and of itself is actually proof that Macross is "winning."

After all - we need to keep in mind that while there is some small truth in the idea of supply driving demand via marketing; in the long run, it is demand that drives supply.

The greater volume of Macross goods vs. Robotech goods is a result of Macross simply being more popular than Robotech - plain and simple.

What is truly silly, however, in HG's behavior, is that they are wasting their dwindling resources on writing cease and decist letters and their PR is overshadowed by their growing public perception as being that one company that keeps suing people. They could do themselves a favor by creating something new - although I guess that's what Shadow Chronicles was supposed to be...

Re: The Novels -

I have actually only "read" three of them - the Zendradi Rebellion and some other two...Planet Killers was the one with the hackers and the other one was ...The Masters Gambit.

I found them in a bookstore, in english, in Warsaw, and my girlfriend bought them for me when she saw my face light up. Why did my face light up? Probably for the same reason it would have lit up if I had seen Transformers Actionmaster Krok in a toy store in Warsaw - it's not a figure I particularly care deeply about, nor am I dying to own it - but if I happened to see it MISB in a toy store - the occasion would be such a rare occurence - that I'd buy it.

As to why you remember being annoyed with the novels, but not remembering why Gubaba - let me see if this jogs your memory....

Reading the Zendradi Rebellion, I was able to read it through cover to cover largely because the events took place right after the end of Macross. So despite all the problems in that novel, there were plenty of familiar characters and there was some continuity in terms of themes. Minmay's struggles as a celebrity, and also the Zendradi rebellion that was brewing had shadows of Kamjin's efforts in the second half of the series. All of this nostalgic value was apparently enough to keep me interested.

But in Masters Gambit and ESPECIALLY in Planet Killers - the only thing that I had any attachment to was that the words "Minmey" or "Macross" were sometimes mentioned.

I found myself falling asleep every time the writers introduced what were apparently "purely" Robotech themes (like those hackers) and thinking, to quote Swoop from Transformers the Movie...

"Good part! Tell Swoop good part!"

And I'd flip through trying to find the "good part."

I remember the the "final battle" in Planet Killers felt like a cross of Gundam Seed with Silverhawks. Not a good feeling.

Re: SETO and RT.com

Well it's about time they locked that thread. I generally agree that when people think, present logical arguments, do so politely, and persist in doing it, they are doing a great disservice to humanity. Think of all the suffering caused by people like that in the history of the human race. These sorts of people are truly disgusting.

But I think RT.com is being too lenient as it is. They need to send cease and desist orders straight to Kawamori himself.

After all - let's not beat around the bush here:

What is the source of Robotech's troubles? It's Kawamori. If he would just STOP making up new Macross series - there would be no problem.

We live in a globalized world. So when Kawamori makes something up, even if it's in Japanese, it will unfortunately filter out to people who have a sad habit of finding it more worthwhile than HG's superior products.

The solution?

Sue Kawamori. Send him a cease and decist letter.

And while you're at it - send one to that Tomino guy as well. Robotech footage CLEARLY shows people getting into giant robots to pilot them. Now, this Kawamorii guy keeps making these shows about pretty much the exact same thing.

What has to happen is this case has to go before the International Human Rights tribunale in the Hague. It's the only way to stop them - and to ease the suffering of people who have felt the wrath of those like Seto.

Pete

[Gubaba]

Re: The Novels -

I have actually only "read" three of them - the Zendradi Rebellion and some other two...Planet Killers was the one with the hackers and the other one was ...The Masters Gambit.

I found them in a bookstore, in english, in Warsaw, and my girlfriend bought them for me when she saw my face light up. Why did my face light up? Probably for the same reason it would have lit up if I had seen Transformers Actionmaster Krok in a toy store in Warsaw - it's not a figure I particularly care deeply about, nor am I dying to own it - but if I happened to see it MISB in a toy store - the occasion would be such a rare occurence - that I'd buy it.

As to why you remember being annoyed with the novels, but not remembering why Gubaba - let me see if this jogs your memory....

Reading the Zendradi Rebellion, I was able to read it through cover to cover largely because the events took place right after the end of Macross. So despite all the problems in that novel, there were plenty of familiar characters and there was some continuity in terms of themes. Minmay's struggles as a celebrity, and also the Zendradi rebellion that was brewing had shadows of Kamjin's efforts in the second half of the series. All of this nostalgic value was apparently enough to keep me interested.

But in Masters Gambit and ESPECIALLY in Planet Killers - the only thing that I had any attachment to was that the words "Minmey" or "Macross" were sometimes mentioned.

I found myself falling asleep every time the writers introduced what were apparently "purely" Robotech themes (like those hackers) and thinking, to quote Swoop from Transformers the Movie...

"Good part! Tell Swoop good part!"

And I'd flip through trying to find the "good part."

I remember the the "final battle" in Planet Killers felt like a cross of Gundam Seed with Silverhawks. Not a good feeling.

You may be on to something...except, well, to put it bluntly, I don't think there WERE any "good parts." The characters were changed, both by the writers' choice and by the necessities of plot. Oh sure, there's a character named "Minmay," but it's not the same Minmay that I loved in DYRL or (when I saw it much later) the original Macross. It's not the Minmay I love in "Dreaming Prelude~My Fair Minmay." Hell, it's wasn't even the Minmay that annoyed the crap out of me in Robotech. It was someone else. Someone else with Minmay's name. Same with all the "Macross Saga" characters that showed up. Macek, I think, never really had a grasp on a number of the characters from Macross, as so he changed them as much as he could, given the confines of working with the pre-existing animation. But then, when he plotted out the Sentinels, I think he lost even the tenunous grasp he had on the characters while working on the first series. They didn't talk the same, they didn't act the same.

And THAT is, I think, what annoyed me. If I had to have "Rick" and "Lisa" instead of Hikaru and Misa, well, I didn't like it, but I could live with it. But I didn't even get Rick and Lisa, I got two flat cardboard cut-outs with the names "Rick" and "Lisa" pasted on them.

Now I know how the audience in that last Fire Bomber concert in Dynamite 7 felt...

[VFTF1]

Well... I can't speak to the specifics of why Macek did what - but in general, I think that his failing was inevitable for the very reasons why Kawamori succeeded in Making Hikaru and Misa enduring characters:

Let me put it this way - there's a scene in Zendradi Rebellion where Rick and Lisa interact - Rick really wants to have sex with her...or maybe she really wants to have sex with Rick - I can't remember or be arsed to get up, walk across the room and pull out my copy of the book... but they kind of end up snuggling and flirting and having a little gushy-wushy giggle moment.

Now.

That scene to me is so totally and completely out of character for Hikaru and Misa - because for 36 episodes we saw Hikaru and Misa developing a deep love for one another BENEATH their exteriors which were such that they wouldn't have thought to get close to eachother.

And even once it became "clear" they loved eachother, they still had a big big problem with getting close and showing affection. Part of the reason was the war, which kept intruding into their private time together. But a BIGGER part of the reason -for Misa - was that she had been brought up in a military family where love was frowned upon in favor of duty AND the one true love she had experienced had been more painful for her than anything else in her entire life. She was scared to get close to a man, scared to be a woman, but on the other hand her humanity demanded it of her - she couldn't be complete or happy without it. Yet at every single step of the way, she had this tension in her. Hikaru, on the other hand, was in love with Minmey and it took him a long long looong time to realize that Minmei and he had never really existed as a couple - that Minmey never loved him. That even towards the end, when Minmei started to "realize" her feelings for Hikaru - those feelings weren't love of Hikaru - they were a longing for a long lost youth where there were no paparazi, no public persona, no post-apocalyptic Earthern poverty, and no cousin getting drunk and getting into her panties all the time.

So up until the very end, the romantic relationship between Mis and Hikaru had this great great tension that just made their love all the more REAL.

Now...

Kawamori was WISE as a writer to END it there and NEVER GO BACK.

Because it's kind of like real life - you can never go back or recapture that feeling of love - not in its' initial form. A good story knows when to END.

So - no matter WHA Macek did - he was bound to fail because he chose to continue something that Kawamorii consciously meant to be FINISHED.

This is why Robotech fails as a dramatic tale while Macross succeeds. It's because with Robotech - Rick and Lisa are not what they were in Macross - they are Macross PLUS a whol bunch of other stuff, where by the end they're calling themselves "pussy cat" and acting like the Jetsons or something.

The more Rick and Lisa there is in Robotech, the more diluted the characters become, and the less enduring their legacy.

Kawamorii was wise to disengage the heros in his story from the story itself. Macross as a story can continue WITHOUT Hikaru and Misa and even Minmei. You don't need to have Minmei time traveling to get knocked up by a clone and give birth to Zor. You don't need Lisa and Rick to be in command of the entire Robotech forces and the Sentinels and happen to go to every single important adventure there is to go on while being in love and having Minmei tag along to try and re-create a romantic tension that is impossible to perpetuate into infinity.

So - it's a matter of writing more than anyting else.

Kawamorii has the story of Macross as something that is not necessarily attached to any set of characters. Macross is fine without Misa and Hikaru and Roy and Minmei. And Macross will be fine in the future if we never see Ranka and Sheyl again. This is because Macross has a history to it, just like the real world, that is - yes - composed of people - but not dependent on them. It's not like other franchises where Optimus Prime and Megatron just HAVE TO come back, and Superman and Lois Lane ALWAYS need to be there. The story can go on without them.

That's a pretty unique achievement I think.

And something that Robotech will never achieve because it's got too much anchoring it down.

Pete

[Seto Kaiba]

Guess what happened guys ? Maverick_LSC locked the Macross-robotech legal thread ( http://www.robotech.com/community/forum/re...mp;pagenumber=9 ) because he was loosing face against Seto. Seto "find pleasure in watching the suffering of others" he wrote. Seriously guys, we don't need proofs anymore to confirm that the mods at robotech.com are not only nuts but also sad people. May God help them (if God has patience in dealing with idiots of course ...).

That ain't all, kids... my posting privileges have been revoked there too, pending a response from Steve. It looks like MEMO1DOMINION and Maverick_LSC just can't handle reality intruding on their Robotech-themed fantasy world, and I'm sure MEMO didn't enjoy being outed as a fraud who doesn't know what he's talking either... still, I was quite nice about it, I even explained the rest of my analysis to Maverick in an e-mail.

After listening to Maverick_LSC's "Robotech Doghouse" podcast, I have to say abusing Robotech fans must be how he blows off steam... by the sound of things, the poor guy is the textbook definition of "pussy-whipped". Based on what he's said, his wife even treats his anime hobby as something shameful that has to be hidden from their friends. That poor bastard... makes me glad my last few girlfriends have all either been as into the hobby as I am, or tried it and liked it.

And...nobody is surprised.

I was! I honestly didn't think Maverick_LSC had the stones to do something like that without a half-decent set of trumped-up charges. I'm not sure whether I should be impressed by his ability to post what he did and expect to be taken seriously, or be amused by the flimsy pretext he came up with to revoke my posting privileges.

Still, see me care... it just means Robotech.com has lost one of the few remaining people who had a goddamn clue.

Really? When was that, and what happened?

From what I've heard, shortly after Tommy Yune became Robotech's creative director... it seems they tried to negotiate license agreements with Big West (royalties in exchange for being able to distribute Macross in the US) and Big West told 'em to go f*ck off.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[VFTF1]

From what I've heard, shortly after Tommy Yune became Robotech's creative director... it seems they tried to negotiate license agreements with Big West (royalties in exchange for being able to distribute Macross in the US) and Big West told 'em to go f*ck off.

Good for Big West if that's true.

I think we can safely say they their response was ine line with the heart felt emotions of Macross fans.

Even if it means keeping Macross out of the USA "officially."

Personally, when considering what happened to Macross last time they made it "official" in America - I would prefer it to stay "unofficial" and original in Japanese.

Pete

[Seto Kaiba]

Good for Big West if that's true.

It does appear to be... I've heard it from a few people, including Kevin McKeever (though he put it in somewhat less earthy terms).

Even if it means keeping Macross out of the USA "officially."

For a while now I've suspected the reason they didn't crack down on Macross fansubs was to keep fans interested in Macross long enough for Harmony Gold to either propose more reasonable terms or go out of business altogether... opening the market up for a mass-release of all the thus far unreleased Macross shows.

[RedWolf]

I wonder if that could be considered a violation of free speech, Seto.

You weren't a troll and you're providing facts that are relevant to the issue. We don't ban MEMO here even if his Net etiquette borders on trolling.

The fact that /m/ almost universally reviles HG and Robotech shows how out of touch they are with the market.

A fellow Allsparker wrote a rant about media companies should adapt in the digital age or die.

A Rangerboard member complained about US Networks making adaptions of British shows when the originals are quite good.

HG's business model when compared to these is quite archaic with no room for growth. They are dying a slow death. Which is probably why they are making a threat of frivolous suit to the Mech Warrior 4(?) developer.

[VFTF1]

It's not a violation of free speech - sorry.

The website is not public domain. It belongs to private entities who hav the right to set the boundaries of what can and cannot be said.

It would violate their property rights to say that Seto can go there and say whatever he wants - even if all Seto is saying is the truth, the facts, and saying it politely.

For free speech to have been violated, HG would have to for example send a letter out to all other websites that allow Seto to post insisting that they also ban seto, and then basically trying to get an injunction prohibiting Seto from ever opening his mouth or at least from speaking his mind on the subject.

Nobody has a right to go on a website and write things that the owners of the website don't want to have posted.

Now - naturally as a matter of convention and how things work - I think that they are just hurting themselves by getting rid of Seto - but they do have the right to do it.

I also 100% agree with the remark about HG's business model being archaic. I don't know if they're dying a slow death though - clearly they have money to litigate with. I don't now what the numbers are in terms of say DVD sales for Shadow Chronicles or stuff like that...

But you're right - in the long run - they'll have to produce something to sustain interest - and that something will have to be new.

In any event... companies like HG have a way of sticking around longer than you or I might want.

Personally, again - I would have nothing against them, or against Robotech, if not for their constant attempt at shutting down other people, bullying retailers and generally being so..well...ah...you know

But no - not a violation of free speech by a long shot.

Seto is still able to spread his message.

People can chose not to listen - that's what Robotech.com has chosen.

Pete

[Save]

From what I've heard, shortly after Tommy Yune became Robotech's creative director... it seems they tried to negotiate license agreements with Big West (royalties in exchange for being able to distribute Macross in the US) and Big West told 'em to go f*ck off.

No company in Japan would ever respond in that fashion. I know you are paraphrasing, but too many fans will take what you say as gold. Yes Big West is very protective of Macross because there are still legal issue that have not been totally ironed out. Regardless of badly translated court rulings fans copied and pasted or have read or then twisted and mixed up with their own perspectives of what really was ruled the legal ride is not yet halted for certain rights.

A friend of mine did a short film about my personal anime related life for a film school project, and he was required to get content permission regarding what he filmed and interviewed me about. I obviously talked about Robotech then transitioned to Macross. When he submitted the first edit of the his project to BW they replied back and in his own words told me "All references to Robotech must be removed as it does not exist in Japan, or is it in any way conected to Macross". He removed all Robotech references and the second edit was approved.

It would appear they are taking this stance due to active legal issues, and if they were to work with HG it would almost be the same as saying they are letting their case cease. Now if HG did go to them years ago, either BW kindly refused a meeting or actually heard them out and never gave a yes or no. In Japan business nobody publicly says NO, they just never give an answer which is basically a NO.

[Seto Kaiba]

The fact that /m/ almost universally reviles HG and Robotech shows how out of touch they are with the market.

Last I checked, trying to start a thread in defense of Harmony Gold or Robotech there was considered trolling.

It is highly illustrative of how poor Harmony Gold's understanding of their target market is... but they think they know it all, so they're just going to soldier on ahead with their ill-fated mess of a continuity. Of course, these days the average anime hobbyist considers bowdlerization and rewriting to be every bit as insulting as a slap in the balls with your own dead dog, and American animation enthusiasts are even more predisposed to loathe Robotech due to the steady encroachment of anime titles... which in the long run means that Robotech is doomed to never have more than niche appeal, because of its unique hybrid status, and its very nature as a bowdlerized rewrite of the first installment in a very popular franchise and two other shows that most of the world doesn't give a rats ass about.

HG's business model when compared to these is quite archaic with no room for growth. They are dying a slow death. Which is probably why they are making a threat of frivolous suit to the Mech Warrior 4(?) developer.

They've been dying a slow death since 1987, when their last viable attempt at a sequel crashed and burned. Their case against Piranha Games is sound, but utterly without value... since they've pretty much given up on Macross merchandise anyway.

Now - naturally as a matter of convention and how things work - I think that they are just hurting themselves by getting rid of Seto - but they do have the right to do it.

You're entirely correct, it is NOT a violation of my right to free speech, it's just an asinine attempt to silence someone who isn't drinking the Robotech kool-aid.

Harmony Gold's preferred strategy for dealing with criticism and the harsh truth has always been to try to tell the critic that he/she does not have a valid opinion, and if they press the issue, it's a ban. In this way, they're really committing slow suicide as a franchise and as a community... they've chased away a great many of their most devoted fans and their best contributors this way... and they're continuing to do so. I was one of the few knowledgeable people left on the boards, assuming Steve doesn't restore my account's posting privileges, they're now down to one, maybe two, knowledgeable individuals... Rhade and (if he ever learns to differentiate between canon and non-canon) ShadowLogan.

No company in Japan would ever respond in that fashion. I know you are paraphrasing, but too many fans will take what you say as gold. [...] In Japan business nobody publicly says NO, they just never give an answer which is basically a NO.

Like I said, it was a somewhat "earthy" interpretation... from what I gathered, Big West's answer to Harmony Gold's proposal was, in so many words, an emphatic "no thank you", though if I remember correctly (I forget whether it was Tommy or Kevin who said this) Big West didn't even want to talk to Harmony Gold, let alone try to work towards some kind of licensing agreement.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[VF5SS]

So from reading this, the stuff that makes Robotech unique apart from the source materials is some convoluted story perpetuated by novels that is totally inaccessible to new readers? I thought they disavowed all that extra stuff to behind with.

Is that what they're fighting for?

[EXO]

I see a lot of people making fun of the Robotech continuity and the "Macek editting" but if you look at the Macross continuity it's a mess also. With SDF and DYRL being a movie and Macross also being a movie and all that.. OY!

But where the real difference lies is that Big West and Kawamori have been able to get passed the original series and deliver some new and exciting animation that can be marketed successfully. As much as I'm not a big fan of Plus, Seven and Zero and even Frontier, the animation and new valks and even some of the new characters are done well enough so that I'll want them in toy form. And when they DO come out in toy form, the engineering and designs are so good you can't pass them up.

With HG, they're so obsessed with the original Macross that they concentrate all their efforts in recreating or trying to acquire all rights to it. When they could have done the same thing since they've had the same amount of time as Big West to propagate their property. Licensing problem... no worries, we'll make out own designs and characters and move on... but they refuse to hire real talent and and professionals and would rather hire lawyers and the reason for that is because they are more fanboys than they are creators. They love Macross/Robotech and want to become part of the mythos rather than start their own. They rather make cheap toy renditions of the VF-1 and Mospeada like bootleggers than treat their fans like true collectors instead nostalgia chasing freaks willing to buy anything to relive their bygone youth.

The funny thing is I started collecting He-Man toys again. I know there's been toys all this time but I never paid attention to it. But this time they took almost the same business model as Yamato. You pay a bit more becuase it's such a niche fandom and they'll give you a high quality product with all the extras you could want and in the design you would want as a fan. I always look at it as the 1/48 version of He-Man toys. And it's a really really successful line. It sells out within hours or at the most a couple of days. The point is they treat their target consumers as adult collectors that are demanding and selective, with enough respect to know that they should get exactly what they expect.

I just can't see HG turning that corner now. If the movie gets made and if it's successful I don't think HG will know how to take advantage of it. I think they'll get left behind and it'll be a whole new thing. Toynami will not get the distribution of merchandise and while HG will most likey be listed as producers, a new cartoon coming based on the movie continuity won't be anything close to what the robotech crew has in mind. IF it gets made...