HG and Robotech Debates

[TheLoneWolf]

If BW owns the original designs for the Tomahawk, then only BW would be able to claim rights over a derivated design from it??? right??

Big West does own the original design for the Tomahawk, and Harmony Gold owns the Tomahawk's merchandising rights in the USA. It appears that Harmony Gold has taken the position that the Mechwarrior 5 video game is merchandise, therefore they contend that the Tomahawk cannot appear in it without their approval.

And of course, it's really rich to read that Mechawarrior the game "STOLE" the general design of the Tomahawk... when it could be argued that Harmony Gold stole the whole stupid anime in the first place.

Only an uninformed person could make that sort of baseless argument, I would suggest reading this. And Macross is not a "stupid anime."

[Ghost Train]

I found this sort of by accident. Probably a troll, but this complaint is funny as hell:

http://www.complaints.com/directory/2004/september/29/17.htm

"Harmony Gold furthermore failed to pay for damge of goods and moving costs. Harmony Gold's people threatened my wife and my child." lmao, that sounds exactly like what HG would do to have their way.

[HappyPenguins]

random question: where is your avatar from?

She's from a story I write and illustrate myself :]

Classy move, HG. Well, I told you guys a lot of it is an illusion to get people's money.

That's a really crappy way to reintroduce your company, and probably Robotech, back into the mainstream; with litigation. At least people are making sure Harmony Gold gets people's attention for this mess. They've pissed off Macross and anime fans for years, now they want to piss off the modern gaming community (and Microsoft)? Whatever keeps them relevant these days.

I can see them losing a lot of opportunities just for that Tomahawk.

I completely agree lol this isn't going to make them look good at all.

I found this sort of by accident. Probably a troll, but this complaint is funny as hell:

http://www.complaints.com/directory/2004/september/29/17.htm

"Harmony Gold furthermore failed to pay for damge of goods and moving costs. Harmony Gold's people threatened my wife and my child." lmao, that sounds exactly like what HG would do to have their way.

That's hilarious!

Edited September 4, 2009 by HappyPenguins

[Jasonc]

That guys complaint is funny. Since it's so vague, it doesn't really say if the complaint is merited. However, I wouldn't put it past HG. I've got some interesting stories of people they've really short changed and have not paid.

[Akilae]

Sad part about the whole HG/Merchwarrior thing is that the games industry is taking this lying down...

[Keith]

::goes to look at picture:: Bullshit, that thing barely resembles a Tomahawk anymore, stfu HG!

[Batou]

Hell, I don't usually give a flip about the licensing flame wars at this point, but this made me giggle. I wish I could comment on the trailer, but it looks like Youtube already pulled it because of HG's "copyright claim".

I can't wait until Big West sues HG for "copyright infringement" when the (sure to be laughably bad) Robotech movie shows up and the "Veritechs" or whatever they want to call them are just a bit too close to the old VF-1 design (as in being a flying machine that turns into a robot) and sue HG's pants off for violating their intellectual property. This festering blight of a company really just needs to go away. Hopefully their massive-budget straight-to-dvd b movie will finally bankrupt them and the world will be a better place.

and Macross is not a "stupid anime."

[Einherjar]

Hell, I don't usually give a flip about the licensing flame wars at this point, but this made me giggle. I wish I could comment on the trailer, but it looks like Youtube already pulled it because of HG's "copyright claim".

Actually, it's still there in a couple of places.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW2kulLraaY

In fact, it's still posted in other sites like Gamespot, and not all gaming sites have reported about it yet. HG will need to send more C&Ds.

This might give people the wrong impression that HG is doing this because there's secretly a Robotech video game coming out soon using the Tomahawk and other mechs. Screw it, I'll start it.

"OMG guyz! You know why they want to sue mechawarrior? Theres a ROBOT-TECH game coming out."

Edited September 4, 2009 by Einherjar

[Ghost Train]

Having only recently seen Shadow Chronicles (2 nights ago), I can see a small glimmer of potential in HG, still got a while to go before their game is considered top notch... but perhaps if they spent less time:

-suing (or threatening to sue) people

-sending threatening notes

-distorting the truth

and more time perfecting their core business they might... OH WAIT, THAT IS THEIR CORE BUSINESS LULZ.

[akt_m]

Big West does own the original design for the Tomahawk, and Harmony Gold owns the Tomahawk's merchandising rights in the USA. It appears that Harmony Gold has taken the position that the Mechwarrior 5 video game is merchandise, therefore they contend that the Tomahawk cannot appear in it without their approval.

But its not the same design, it ressembles the Tomahank, therefore it is a derivated design, so it wouldn't be under merchandising rights.

[Einherjar]

Could this be an example of what HG just sent out to IGN Entertainment, Catalyst Game Labs, Piranha Games and Smith & Tinker?

http://www.utsystem.edu/OGC/INTELLECTUALPR...tract/cease.htm

From a lawyer's/strategist's standpoint, why choose to send it IGN Entertainment first and not others like CBS Interactive (Gamespot), IDG Entertainment (Gamepro), or G4 Media/Comcast (G4TV)? Then again, they're probably going to get them too eventually, every single video game site with the trailer.

EDIT - I figured it out, the trailer was revealed exclusively by IGN, that's why they've been drawn into this mess. It was a good strategy by HG to get this started during the Labor Day weekend to soften the impact until Tuesday.

Edited September 5, 2009 by Einherjar

[Wanzerfan]

Sad part about the whole HG/Merchwarrior thing is that the games industry is taking this lying down...

Here's what I would say to Harmony Gold if I was the CEO of the company that's making Mechwarrior 5...

"Kiss my ass."

[stillmad]

So here I am someone who grew up as the kid who though Go Bots and Transformers sucked because I watched Robo Tech. I loved it. Loved the imagery, and I thought the story was good until I discovered Battletech. Battletech let me play games and has given me over 100 novels for Giant Mechs with human pilots. There is no denying that Robotech begot Battletech, but frankly that's where it ends. The robotech story lines in my opinion are like chewing gum compared to a fine fillet medium cooked 12 oz steak of Battletech.

I used to enjoy both but it has come to a point where I need need to decide which I prefer for one time and all. I can no longer support Harmony Gold, Its derivative products, Manga, Anime, Novels or the in extension the Paladium Robotech Role Play game. It is time for Harmony Gold to simply go Bankrupt and I'm going to do my part to not support anything they do any longer. The faster the imagery and story become public domain license the better.

[Seto Kaiba]

But its not the same design, it ressembles the Tomahank, therefore it is a derivated design, so it wouldn't be under merchandising rights.

It's not the same design precisely, but it's close enough to be recognizable as a Tomahawk, and that's all that really matters. Like it or not, Harmony Gold does legitimately own the exclusive right to produce merchandise based on the designs of the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross TV series for sale outside of Japan. As odd as I know this sounds... Harmony Gold is behaving in a way which is neither unethical nor legally questionable. This is a fairly clear-cut case of someone violating their exclusive right to use those designs in merchandise outside of Japan, and they are well within their rights to send those cease and desist letters. I'm inclined to suspect this is a repeat of the problem with Catalyst Game Labs, where they green-lit the use of the "unseen" designs without being aware of the terms of the settlement in Harmony Gold v. FASA.

From a lawyer's/strategist's standpoint, why choose to send it IGN Entertainment first and not others like CBS Interactive (Gamespot), IDG Entertainment (Gamepro), or G4 Media/Comcast (G4TV)? Then again, they're probably going to get them too eventually, every single video game site with the trailer.

As you pointed out, the trailer was an IGN exclusive, but I suspect the real reason they're going after the trailer with such vigor is that they want to get the infringing material out of the public eye while they meet with Piranha Games to demand the removal of the infringing design(s) in hopes that they can settle the situation without having to resort to a long, messy, and expensive legal battle.

Of course, it doesn't really change the fact that their recent actions towards Battletech and Mechwarrior are essentially public relations suicide, since Robotech is a virtual nonentity by comparison.

[Einherjar]

As you pointed out, the trailer was an IGN exclusive, but I suspect the real reason they're going after the trailer with such vigor is that they want to get the infringing material out of the public eye while they meet with Piranha Games to demand the removal of the infringing design(s) in hopes that they can settle the situation without having to resort to a long, messy, and expensive legal battle.

Of course, it doesn't really change the fact that their recent actions towards Battletech and Mechwarrior are essentially public relations suicide, since Robotech is a virtual nonentity by comparison.

For now it looks like it's working. It was odd at first to see sites like G4 and Gamespot not reporting about something this big (is it big? I'm not sure). Of course, it's Labor Day weekend, so the parties have time before everyone knows (unless someone tries to stir things up a bit).

[VF5SS]

They'll just remove the designs and people will play it because its a new mechwarrior. 25 million people can't be wrong.

[Gubaba]

I wonder...

How does ADV going out of business affect the Robotech DVDs..?

[Keith]

Solution game designers, remove one arm cannon, replace it with a hammer, paint it black, and call it "The Shadow Cronc" HG can't touch you!

[Jasonc]

I wonder...

How does ADV going out of business affect the Robotech DVDs..?

From what I was reading, it appears that ADV is simply redircting their licenses and properties into smaller, sister companies that are owned by the CEO and whatnot. It may not affect them too much, but it's too early in the game to see. I know they burned bridges with Funimation when they didn't want Funimation involved in the production of Shadow Rising.

[Seto Kaiba]

How does ADV going out of business affect the Robotech DVDs..?

We'll know soon enough... someone asked that exact question on RT.com's Production forum (the one where Kevin McKeever hangs out), so he'll answer soon, if he hasn't already.

[Keith]

We'll know soon enough... someone asked that exact question on RT.com's Production forum (the one where Kevin McKeever hangs out), so he'll answer soon, if he hasn't already.

Is there really anoynce left interested enough in Robotech DVD's for it to be an issue? They've been out for nearly a decade, can't imagine any robotech fans who would want them would still need them.

[taksraven]

I have to say, thank christ for this Mechwarrior HG news from the viewpoint that it gives us a slightly different angle to talk about things, it was getting pretty stagnant here. (and probably will again)

Taksraven

[Einherjar]

Chris Meadow's analysis of the Robotech/Mechwarrior situation.

http://www.terrania.us/journal/2009/09/har...ech-second.html

[VFTF1]

Reading that, here's the image that flashes before my mind:

The US anime industry is a bunch of fanboys who don't ever produce anything of their own and spend their time fighting over trademarks and copyrights of things made in Japan that have lives of their own.

On the other hand - it seems that these legal back-and-forths are so common that maybe we (including me) shouldn't overdramatize. Just because somebody sends you some piece of paper that says "cease and decist" doesn't mean anything until an appelate court rules on your case - which usually happens years later.

Most times, parties prefer to settle out of court.

These guys shoul settle out of court.

And they really should rethink whether or not it's wise to bug fan websites and small retailers who are just trying to market their stuff.

Pete

[Seto Kaiba]

Chris Meadow's analysis of the Robotech/Mechwarrior situation.

http://www.terrania.us/journal/2009/09/har...ech-second.html

Ah, the unofficial Harmony Gold propaganda division swings into action.

I posted a comment there, clarifying some of his more obvious fartups.

I really should make a point to attend the next Space Station Liberty session with McKeever and drop a few bombshells.

Edited September 5, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[terry the lone wolf]

2 U.S. companies fighting over the scraps from Japan. Though, if HG has exclusive merchandising rights over the Macross mecha the Catalyst/Piranha people should've researched better.

[RedWolf]

2 U.S. companies fighting over the scraps from Japan. Though, if HG has exclusive merchandising rights over the Macross mecha the Catalyst/Piranha people should've researched better.

Well we don't see HG suing Hasbro and Takara-Tomy today over some Transformers. Today Hasbro lawyers will eat them alive.

Which shows Hasbro by having a good relationship with their Japanese counterparts are successful. With Transformer Live Action Movies to boot.

HG on the otherhand is made of utter fail. They even can't keep a writer for their Live Action Movie project. They can't even make a decent animated feature in the 21st century.

Edited September 5, 2009 by RedWolf

[Einherjar]

Ah, the unofficial Harmony Gold propaganda division swings into action.

I posted a comment there, clarifying some of his more obvious fartups.

I really should make a point to attend the next Space Station Liberty session with McKeever and drop a few bombshells.

I saw people responding to the IGN and Kotaku news articles quoting/referring to this analysis. He himself posted about it too. It's Chris Meadows, so I don't know how accurate his information can be at times, but he spread it around pretty quickly.

On the plus side, it's good to hear people not as into Macross and the like already know HG's reputation and share our sentiments from their posts. His analysis may not change the general opinion about the company anyway. In fact, it might get worse if this causes more people to look into the situation a little more closely.

Edited September 5, 2009 by Einherjar

[VFTF1]

That's because for as long as I can remember, people have been hearing only two main things associated with Harmony Gold:

1. Mega super new movie/series/blockbuster/action/great/wonder product coming....soon...just around the corner...just you wait and see...really...

2. By the way - YOU'RE BANNED! AND YOU'RE SUED! AND YOU MUST CEASE AND DEC...er...desist...oh however you spell it...

It would help them if they did more than just these two things...

Pete

[taksraven]

2. By the way - YOU'RE BANNED! AND YOU'RE SUED! AND YOU MUST CEASE AND DEC...er...desist...oh however you spell it...

Pete

You forgot to add "EXTERMINATE!!!"

Anybody here capable of photoshopping into creation a HG Dalek saying the appropriate slogans. I think that most HG people and RT fans seem to have the uncompromising and unreasonable attitude of a Dalek.

Taksraven

Edited September 5, 2009 by taksraven

[Seto Kaiba]

I saw people responding to the IGN and Kotaku news articles quoting/referring to this analysis. He himself posted about it too. It's Chris Meadows, so I don't know how accurate his information can be at times, but he spread it around pretty quickly.

Not surprising... Space Station Liberty IS the unofficial propaganda mouthpiece of Harmony Gold after all.

As is typical with this, he half-assed his research. That's par for the course with Robotech die-hards though, and Chris Meadows (Robotech Master) is definitely a die-hard.

On the plus side, it's good to hear people not as into Macross and the like already know HG's reputation and share our sentiments from their posts. His analysis may not change the general opinion about the company anyway. In fact, it might get worse if this causes more people to look into the situation a little more closely.

It's not like this'll damage Harmony Gold's rep any more than it already has.

Battletech fans have hated Harmony Gold since the 90's, because of the original "unseen mecha" lawsuit, and most mecha anime enthusiasts on the various websites scattered around the net hate them either for bastardizing Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada, or for keeping Macross sequels out of western markets.

Really, their reputation was already poo, and this is just more crap being heaped atop an already mountainesque dunghill.

Edited September 5, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[Wanzerfan]

Ah, the unofficial Harmony Gold propaganda division swings into action.

I posted a comment there, clarifying some of his more obvious fartups.

I really should make a point to attend the next Space Station Liberty session with McKeever and drop a few bombshells.

I hope the bombs are nuclear in nature, Seto.

[RedWolf]

I hope the bombs are nuclear in nature, Seto.

Nuclear? Don't you mean Reaction Weapon?

If this does goes to court I hope the Mech Warrior developer's lawyers brings in Big West representatives as witnesses and the Tokyo court decision as evidence.

Just to see the looks on HG's faces.

[Keith]

The Macross & Mechwarrior fan community should somehow come together. Hell, I don't mind sharring our Destroid's with them, as long as they don't produce any more of that Battletech cartoon crap!

[VFTF1]

Anybody here capable of photoshopping into creation a HG Dalek saying the appropriate slogans.

I would, but knowing HG they'd send me a cease and decist, claiming that the Dalek bears an uncanny resemblence to Rick Hunter, and they own the trademark.

If this does goes to court I hope the Mech Warrior developer's lawyers brings in Big West representatives as witnesses and the Tokyo court decision as evidence.

Just to see the looks on HG's faces.

See... this is really honest to gosh what just flaberghasts me.

NO SANE BUSINESS EVER WANTS TO GO TO COURT. EVER.

The vast majority of such disputes are always settled outside of court. Court means millions of dollars in legal fees, slim changes of getting those fees back and slimmer chances of any "definitive" win.

Maybe nobody has noticed, but the anime market (films, series, toys, models etc) is not a multi-trillion dollar business, and the economy right now is not booming.

Most businesses are happy to just cover their costs and stay alfoat.

Most businesses are doing everything they can to lower their costs in order to survive.

But then again...

Most business actually MAKE SOMETHING or OFFER A SERVICE.

I guess if your only primary source of revenue is maintaining a death grip on a trademark to a little known tv show from the 1980s, then your principle activity will be suing people to hold on to that trademark.

BUT

I can take a crap, put it in a jar, call it Super Mondo Bot, and trademark it.

Then, I can scour the internet looking for one or two people on Earth who JUST MIGHT have also decided to put their crap in a jar (you would be surprised at just how many people probably do this...)

Then, I can threaten to sue those people for it.

Meanwhile, I can put my jar of crap on Ebay and try to sell it for a million dollars, with promises of a second jar to come in the near future.

Any wagers on how many people would be up for buying my jar of crap?

Not many.

And this is a good metaphor for what will become of HG is they continue producing more lawsuits than actual products and merchandise.

Again - it's nice that they're ambitious and want to do a live action movie. But in the meantime, while they're waiting for WB to buy their proverbial jar of crap for a couple millions dollars, they could at least take a piss on the fandom once in a while (to follow through with the metaphor) and produce some other stuff.

Technically, there are the Toynami 1/100s... but again - those initial molds came out years ago. In that time, Yamato has created three versions of the VF-1, and new 1/60 versions of Macross Zero valkyrie. Bandai has made 1/72 models for Macross Frontier, as well as the DXs. Oh yeah, and Macross Frontier came out.

Meanwhile, beyond the limited run Masterpiece Toynami line and the 1/100s...nothing zero nadda nil has come from HG.

Well, there was Shadow Chronicles. Ok.

I guess it all boils down to the numbers.

They must be making money off of this stuff - some kind of money - to be able to keep going.

It's just a very strange phenomena in my eyes.

Heck - most business who DO come into conflict with other businesses find that it is always in everyone's self-interest to proceed with the conflict in a discreet manner.

Burning bridges and creating flame wars on the internet isn't good for anybody's business.

Telling retailers what to sell and what not to sell is not going to make them want to offer your product in the future no matter how nice a deal you try to make with them. Few anime retailers like the idea of compromising their independence - even if for "financial gain" - which in this day and age is not exactly something anybody is actually enjoying...

Pete