HG and Robotech Debates

[Capt Christopher Donovan]

Eh, six of one, half a dozen of the other... Scott still died and went to another place full of bright white light to be with his dead Invid girlfriend. Most people would sum that up as "Invid heaven", but whatever floats your boat.

And that is an invalid story point why?

Which is funny, because Robotech's storytelling is typically follows the model of "humanity vs the evil aliens", and the aliens invariably end up either being wiped out to the last man, or are liberated from a more evil alien race only to end up subordinate to the human forces. Since Prelude pretty much recanonized big chunks of the Sentinels comics, that really kind of brings it full circle to the McKinneyist outcome where humanity is ultimately the source of all the universe's evils. (which is lulzy for several reasons)

Only if you stop at that VERY superficial analysis of the story. Those "evil aliens" thematically represent aspects of humanity that are problematic taken to a theatrical degree. The Zentradi represent "baser" traits: naked agression, authoritarianism and blind conformity. The Robotech Masters also represent the last two traits and add, for want of a better way of putting it, the concept of intellect run amok, unchained by the "higher angels" of human nature. The Invid take a different tack, with aspects of the preceeding faults combined into a dangerously blind faith in not their own rightness (hubris, if you will).

You can say that, per McKinney, humanity is the source of all the universe's evils, but that analysis leaves out humanity's role in CURING those same evils.

You might not like his tone, but he raises a good point. The attitude that the differences between Robotech and Macross don't matter might fly with Robotech fans (who are used to excusing large discontinuities and total disconnects because of the nature of their favorite show), but it usually does not fly with Macross fans and in chats about Macross, because like as not, they are different universes. The only thing they have in common is the animation. You also have to remember that unlike Robotech, which cannot use the SDF-1 in anything except the Macross Saga and comic books, Macross has been able to bring the ship back (or others of its class) again and again... which really helps pin down things like size.

If you are content to just accept whatever you are told at face value.

Let's be honest here... the original Macross was not the highest quality production, even for its time. This is all hand-drawn animation, and so of course there are bound to be some inconsistencies... and not just in terms of goofs on the part of the animators, but also perspective. Subsequent productions have had much higher quality, which solves a lot of the problems like that.

But the fact remains that Macross's creators have never once backed down from the 1,210/1,200m numbers they came up with for the size of the SDF-1 Macross pre- and post-refit. Frankly, in terms of scale to other objects of known size, the 1,210m number used in the TV series fits just fine. Yeah, it's a little unfeasible to cram 20,000 crew and 58,000 refugees into a ship that size, but hey, this is willing suspension of disbelief here. So long as the story is compelling and the characters are deep, who gives a damn if the ship theoretically should be shown to be a lot more crowded than it is?

On the one hand you are right...I'm not going to STOP liking Robotech (and or Macross, if I ever get a chance to see it) over the issue. However, I do enjoy the intellectual exercise of trying to come to a conclusion that fits the facts I have on hand.

The canonicity of Macross: Do You Remember Love? is... complicated. I'm going to do my best to explain it, but I might get a bit wordy, so please bear with me.

Macross: Do You Remember Love? isn't a retcon, per-se... it's an alternate depiction of the events of Space War 1 which were originally shown in the Super Dimension Fortress Macross TV series. Strictly speaking, Macross's creators maintain that the "true account of Space War 1" is somewhere between the different depictions of the war. Over the years, Macross's creators have used DYRL designs and TV designs side by side, depending on which version of the particular character or mecha they happen to prefer, though in some cases both versions of a mecha are canon, such as the SDF-1 w/ and w/o ARMDs... the former being the post-2012 refit version and mass-production model, or the VF-1's different hands and cockpit being a block upgrade. DYRL also has an odd status as an in-universe movie that came out in 2031 and inspired many of the characters in later shows to pursue careers in music, though there is some indication that the in-universe version differs somewhat, including the wedding of Max and Milia, which isn't actually in DYRL.

On the other hand, the alternate universe continuity of Macross II: Lovers Again treats DYRL as the 100% accurate depiction of Space War 1, and the TV series as non-canon. Much less confusing that way.

Thanks for taking the time to explain that...that definitely muddies the water doesn't it?

If you're still with me after that, Mr. March's website, the Macross Mecha Manual, has a section devoted to DYRL which includes a page devoted to the DYRL-variant SDF-1 Macross. Among the lineart entries is one particular piece which is printed in a few artbooks, and shows the orientation of part of the city inside the engine blocks ("legs") of the Macross. You can find the DYRL SDF-1 variant here, the city section art is at the very bottom of the "line art" part of the article.

Ah yes, I'd seen that before (just didn't know that was the site that was being referenced.

I have to reject that city scheme out of hand. Where are the frakking engines if you put the city there? All you have are the thrust nozzles. It makes ZERO sense. The only really believable place is in the "torso" or "center" of the fortress (depending on mode), and for THAT to work you need a much bigger ship.

While I'm here, I have images of veritechs based on the F-117 AND the B-2, but can't find their origins...can anyone help me out there?

[Capt Christopher Donovan]

Speaking of hate mail, I received another delightful private message from our good friend Pizza the Hutt/Wraith_Knight/Ghost Maker/we don't know what he calls himself here because he's never worked up the courage to post. It seems he took considerable umbridge over my description of his recent behavior, and took it upon himself to convey the severity of his displeasure in the same comical fashion he used to badmouth so many others on RobotechX.

For Capt Christopher Donovan's benefit, I'll remind everyone that he's been sending hostile messages like this to people for ages, usually with no provocation. Pizza's one of those aforementioned Robotech die-hards who has an inexplicable axe to grind where Macross is concerned, and feels that anyone who criticizes Harmony Gold and/or Robotech is 1.) not a real Robotech fan, and 2.) a "Macross purist troll" engaged in some grand and pointless conspiracy to ruin the fun of the "real" Robotech fans (the people who think Shadow Chronicles is perfect and Harmony Gold is staffed by people who are all more wonderful than Mary Poppins).

And now, the lulzy message itself:

There's no excuse for Pizza's behavior. That is simply uncalled for.

By the same token, you just couldn't pass up the opportunity to passive-aggressively rip on Robotech and it's fans AGAIN based on your problem with Pizza.

That's uncalled for as well...

[taksraven]

Taksraven

[Seto Kaiba]

Only if you stop at that VERY superficial analysis of the story. Those "evil aliens" thematically represent aspects of humanity that are problematic taken to a theatrical degree. The Zentradi represent "baser" traits: naked agression, authoritarianism and blind conformity. The Robotech Masters also represent the last two traits and add, for want of a better way of putting it, the concept of intellect run amok, unchained by the "higher angels" of human nature. The Invid take a different tack, with aspects of the preceeding faults combined into a dangerously blind faith in not their own rightness (hubris, if you will).

Actually, I think it's really the other way around, that you're reading a lot into the story that frankly wasn't the intent of the Japanese creators or the American rewriters/editors. Yes, the futility and pointlessness of war is a recurring theme, mainly because that was a common theme in many shows of that period, but this isn't Star Trek, these are three unrelated shows smashed together with a hasty rewrite... not a single unified vision, and certainly not a platform for social commentary. It was, after all, a heavily dumbed-down version of the originals marketed to young children.

You can say that, per McKinney, humanity is the source of all the universe's evils, but that analysis leaves out humanity's role in CURING those same evils.

What cure? EoTC establishes that the whole thing is a stable time loop, sending the SDF-3 back in time and making them the root cause of all of the genocide, hatred, and oppression in the galaxy. They don't solve anything.

If you are content to just accept whatever you are told at face value.

It's not a question of accepting things a face value, it's a matter of the intent of the show's creators, and willing suspension of disbelief. Macross's creators have repeatedly, and on no uncertain terms, established the SDF-1 Macross's length to be 1,210m. That's really not open to debate. That's what the official publications say, and what the animation shows. Yes, the city layout in the original series is slightly unfeasible, but that's what willing suspension of disbelief is for. You're a self-professed gearhead, do you have similar beefs with other sci-fi ships and technologies like this? More often than not, set design for the interior spaces of a ship clashes with the ship's exterior. Star Trek was particularly bad about it, often having large, plot-critical rooms with large windows that were clearly not present on the physical model of the ship. You just sort of have to take the creators at their word.

They've done a pretty good job sticking to the 1,200m size in the subsequent animation whenever a Macross-class SDF has appeared... incl. DYRL, Macross II: Lovers Again, Macross Plus, and Macross Frontier. I'm not seeing a problem. Yes, the 58,000-strong civilian population is a bit excessive, but it's something that was undertaken in extraordinary circumstances. The actual mass-production colony ships didn't even carry HALF that, which is far, FAR more feasible in the long term.

On the one hand you are right...I'm not going to STOP liking Robotech (and or Macross, if I ever get a chance to see it) over the issue. However, I do enjoy the intellectual exercise of trying to come to a conclusion that fits the facts I have on hand.

What's to conclude, there's literally hundreds of sources that give the 1,200m-1,210m figure, and they've done a damn good job of sticking to it in the higher-quality animation that followed the original series. It doesn't really seem to be a debate-worthy subject to me.

Thanks for taking the time to explain that...that definitely muddies the water doesn't it?

If you think THAT'S bad, you should let me explain the differences between the two universes sometime... that'll make your eyes cross so hard they'll switch sides.

I have to reject that city scheme out of hand. Where are the frakking engines if you put the city there? All you have are the thrust nozzles. It makes ZERO sense. The only really believable place is in the "torso" or "center" of the fortress (depending on mode), and for THAT to work you need a much bigger ship.

Well, you're not dealing with conventional rocket booster technology, you're dealing with an impulse system cluster, which is essentially a mix of a nuclear pulse rocket and ion thruster. It doesn't have to be very big, and there's no denying that that nozzle cluster is BIG. Just eyeballing it, I'd say the meat of the engines is that large block of space immediately under the city part of the leg... y'know, the mess that's a good 50m or more thick down there. Plenty of space for a large engine system. Ion thrusters aren't the most hardware-intensive of propulsion systems after all.

While I'm here, I have images of veritechs based on the F-117 AND the B-2, but can't find their origins...can anyone help me out there?

Well, not to split hairs, but the proper term is "Variable Fighter" or "Valkyrie", not "veritech"... that's a Robotech-only term.

There are two different models of variable fighter that bear a strong resemblance to the F-117A Nighthawk... both from the main Macross continuity. There's Macross 7's VF-17D/S Nightmare, a special forces VF (see here), and a simplified general-use version that became the main VF of the U.N. forces in the early 2050s... the VF-171 Nightmare Plus (see here). Not sure what the B-2 Spirit-looking thing could be... perhaps this, or this, or perhaps this, from Kawamori's Air Cavalry Chronicles original design series?

There's no excuse for Pizza's behavior. That is simply uncalled for.

By the same token, you just couldn't pass up the opportunity to passive-aggressively rip on Robotech and it's fans AGAIN based on your problem with Pizza.

That's uncalled for as well...

I assure you there's nothing passive-aggressive about it. This is a simple illustration of the sort of behavior that warrants individual criticism in this thread. Unfortunately, there are a fair few people who behave exactly the same way, and they are those rare Robotech fans who DO get directly criticized for their behavior here. The reason why they warrant criticism is because their... well, crazy... behavior doesn't just reflect poorly on them. These people typically profess to speak for the Robotech fanbase as a whole, and thus shame every Robotech fan with their actions. I think that definitely warrants harsh criticism. It's not a shot at Robotech fans in general. Their unusual devotion aside, most of them are decent-enough people. It's only the most exceptional troublemakers... the ones who give Robotech fans a bad name by association... who ever warrant a mention in this thread.

Edited October 23, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[Funkenstein]

The VA-X3

Its in mahq.net Macross section , under Advanced Valkyrie

Hmm, you know what I think the VA-3M invader may be more in line with "B2 Spirit". It was the variable bomber in Macross VF-X2.

Edited October 23, 2009 by Funkenstein

[ShadowValkyrie]

Taksraven

Okay, just to jump here real quick: The Shadow Chronicles "Refit" of the SDF-3 has got to be the ugliest looking thing in Robotech. I know they can't use the Macross designs, but come on that's the best they could do?

[terry the lone wolf]

Is Robotech a adaption of SDF Macross....In a word no; it's redubbed, edited, new story that combines plot elements of Macross with two non-related animated series. I don't have a problem with that because I feel if Macross was marketed to kids back in the mid 80's it wouldn't have been the success it was. Plot elements would be too sophisticated for the era of G.I. Joe & Inhumanoids. Yeah the college crowd watched RT but the focus was always on the elementary to pre-teens. So Macek's crew dumbed it down somewhat. I still have arguements with buddies in my age group about what was the better cartoon RT or Voltron. Even Vehicle Voltron (that was really dumbed down) was a failure because of the Science Fiction elements and the kids thought it was boring. RT did keep the SF elements and it wasn't a total kid's show like Voltron was.

I feel the hostilities are because of these two reasons: The 1st former Robotech fans feeling betrayed that their was a more mature story out their and the time they spent supporting a franchise was wasted because they don't think it's a true story. I don't think RT is a bootleg of Macross because Harmony Gold legally acquired the rights to broadcast Macross through Tatsunoko. Big West gave up their international rights to finish production and Tats probably had better foot hole in the West. HG had every right to broadcast the show and edited as they seen fit. HG has no control over the designs to Macross (Figures, ships, & mecha) so they can't reanimate it or make new designs but they can distribute the show or edit it in Western markets.

The 2nd reason: Harmony Gold blocking new Macross related products from the West because of their international merchandising rights to SDF Macross & Macross: Do You Remember Love. Both were acquired through Tatsunoko. These rights shouldn't keep Big West from selling their new Mac products in the West (Macross 2: Lovers Again & Macross Plus) but maybe they don't think it's worth the effort to fight. Harmony Gold wanted to get rights to Macross 7 & Macross Zero because of their merchandising rights to the original series but couldn't because their partner Tatsunoko didn't contribute to any future Macross shows. So HG's rights only extends to the original series.

[VF5SS]

So what's with the blatant Crusher Joe ripoffs in that pic? Was that their next idea? If you can't use Macross, just copy Crusher Joe.

[Lolicon]

Robotech is a hack job and deserves to be ridiculed, especially its post-original 85 offerings, along with the psychotic fans who think it's perfect and beyond criticism. If you can't accept that, tough. You're not going to get what you want with the constant complaining about it. If you want a site where Robotech is never criticized as anything less than perfect, I suggest going to a real Robotech site. This is a Macross site devoted to Macross, where even Macross is often criticized (not everyone loves Frontier and don't get me started on Macross 7). And there's nothing "elitist" about it.

If you can accept the above and quit whining about it, then you shouldn't have any problems with anyone here. No one really cares that you're a Robotech fan. It's this "Robotech is perfect and you're wrong, wrong, wrong for ridiculing it!" dismissive attitude that's grating.

And calling us the "trolls" on our community site is the most hilarious thing I've read in awhile.

[VF5SS]

I don't believe a more faithful dub of Macross, Mospeada, and Southern Cross would have fared worse considering the breadth of changes mostly consists of excessive talking and some throwaway lines. Well I suppose you do have all the crap they did to Southern Cross but that's only indicative of how Robotech failed since the most altered series is the least liked in its altered state.

I think the big problem is Carl Macek can't direct an English adaptation to save his life. The guy still thinks funny accents are essential to dubbing.

If you want to talk about other bad adaptations just look at Teknoman vs. Tekkaman Blade. Holy crap what a farce.

[Gubaba]

Y'know, ever since Capt. Donovan compared Macross/Robotech to Start Trek Original series/spin-offs, I've been trying to think of a more accurate real-world analogy...the only one I can come up with is not widely useful, but I think is similar: Lady Murasaki Shikibu's The Tale of Genji in English translation. The first "full" version of Genji (generally considered the world's first novel), published in 1922, was very free, cutting scenes (and even one whole chapter), amplifying other scenes, and changing character's names and personalities. It was more than fifty years before a faithful translation appeared, but many people who *thought* they had read Genji were rather shocked by all the differences. Now, some people prefer the 1922 version, but pretty much all scholars agree that the second (and now third) version(s) are much more faithful to the original text. The 1922 version is kind of interesting in its own right, but is not very useful if your goal is to read the actual Tale of Genji.

But the problem is that there are MANY people who have only read the 1922 version, and there's a lot of stuff that they think is in the original that isn't really there. I've personally talked to someone who was praising Murasaki's inventivenes, since he thought one of the characters basically was Hamlet, 500 years before Hamlet was written. But this guy had only read the 1922 version...in the later translations, the character is not so Hamlet-like. So...he was praising the author for the translator's invention...a Hamlet character made 500 years AFTER Hamlet.

Except of course, for Robotech, a situation like that would be reversed, since a lot of Robotech fans will lay all praise on Carl Macek, even for things that were not his creations...but other than that, I think the analogy holds.

So yeah...it's all happened before...let's hope it doesn't happen again.

[Keith]

Is that really a discusison about the size of the freakin' Macross? If Miyatake says the freakin' thing is a certain size, that's how big it is, he invented the damn thing. This may be a hard concept for robotech fans to accept, but when people come up with "original designs," they get to dictate the dimensions of those designs.

[Funkenstein]

I think the reason a discussion on the size of the SDF-1 is legitimate is because Artists aren't Architects, specifically. scale is a real problem in artwork. This coincides with the fact that the SDF-1 had a compliment of 70 thousand people in it. The usable space inside the Macross would always be less than .5 square kilometers, meaning that

"Macross City" would have a population density perhaps exceeding that of Tokyo.

[Lolicon]

Even the Robotech narrators says in the very first freaking episode of Robotech that the alien craft measured "nearly three quarters of a mile in length" which is... about 1200 meters.

[azrael]

...*snip for length*...

Nice to know someone realized my "matter of opinion" statement.

Hmm, you know what I think the VA-3M invader may be more in line with "B2 Spirit". It was the variable bomber in Macross VF-X2.

mmmmmmmkay...

So yeah...it's all happened before...let's hope it doesn't happen again.

Hmmm... Remind you of anything. Dammit! Why hasn't the law of averages taken effect!!!!???

Is that really a discusison about the size of the freakin' Macross? If Miyatake says the freakin' thing is a certain size, that's how big it is, he invented the damn thing. This may be a hard concept for robotech fans to accept, but when people come up with "original designs," they get to dictate the dimensions of those designs.

Which works fine for Macross. Now RT...

[Lolicon]

Gubaba is the "wise man" I quoted in my earlier post.

[HappyPenguins]

Well *****,seems you become more of a son of a hoe seeing you go to the extreme of name calling and heavy insults,lets see,I really cannot think of anything bad to say about you because only your pathetic parents are at falt that you are such a apeface and your head is so far up your ass with macross and your poor fake knowledge of macross legal rights,that you can see your pathetic mothers teeth.You seem only happy making people miserable who are not up to your psycho standards,and as a former prison officer,I seen plenty of your kind,arrogent sons of hoes who think their doo doo does not stink who takes things for granted,then they snap and do bad things and end up in jail being ass rammed.I cannot wait to see you in that life,seeing your tantrums and arrogence,it may not be so long..Sad thing also,you would not be stupid to my face,sad you too hide behind a key board and talk poo.But I blame your pathetic parents for making you a arrogent spoiled apeface,so that means your mom and dad are too

Dear lord it's like an angsty thirteen year old wrote that.... anyways I got a good laugh

and it seems he was just mad be cause memo got on his case again on Rt.com which meant no sex that night so he decided to take his anger out on you.

[Einherjar]

There's no excuse for Pizza's behavior. That is simply uncalled for.

By the same token, you just couldn't pass up the opportunity to passive-aggressively rip on Robotech and it's fans AGAIN based on your problem with Pizza.

That's uncalled for as well...

I don't think you know enough about the situation to really make an accurate conclusion of what is going on here. You might want to hold off before judging people.

Edited October 23, 2009 by Einherjar

[VF5SS]

I find it kind of ironic someone is bitching about something not matching up visually with regards to Robotech. So how do they explain the whole RUINS OF THE SDF-1 thing when it looks like an entirely different place (and planet) in Southern Cross? Or what about the whole Komillia becoming Jeanne thing?

[RedWolf]

I find it kind of ironic someone is bitching about something not matching up visually with regards to Robotech. So how do they explain the whole RUINS OF THE SDF-1 thing when it looks like an entirely different place (and planet) in Southern Cross? Or what about the whole Komillia becoming Jeanne thing?

LOL

1. Bury the entire thing and editing out the moons.

2. Hair coloring

Frankly World Events Production did a better job of editing and splicing with Voltron than HG with Robotech.

As for the nonexistent SDF-2 .... *shrug*

[Einherjar]

I find it kind of ironic someone is bitching about something not matching up visually with regards to Robotech. So how do they explain the whole RUINS OF THE SDF-1 thing when it looks like an entirely different place (and planet) in Southern Cross? Or what about the whole Komillia becoming Jeanne thing?

Maybe HG expects people to look at the whole thing subjectively, now that what really happened throughout the storyline is now ambiguous. Original 85, novels, comics, etc., take it as you see fit or all of them. Who knows anymore.

[Lolicon]

I find it kind of ironic someone is bitching about something not matching up visually with regards to Robotech. So how do they explain the whole RUINS OF THE SDF-1 thing when it looks like an entirely different place (and planet) in Southern Cross? Or what about the whole Komillia becoming Jeanne thing?

Easy. It's the same answer to all of Robotech's (dis)continuity: protoculture! Komiria obviously smoked way too much protoculture during her teenage years, no doubt because of the distraught caused by her parents abandoning her to the Grant family (because everyone of African descent is related to Claudia in the Robotech universe). So she went from the hot azure-haired ace pilot we once loved to the blond bimbo of Southern Cross.

[Freiflug88]

I don't believe a more faithful dub of Macross, Mospeada, and Southern Cross would have fared worse considering the breadth of changes mostly consists of excessive talking and some throwaway lines. Well I suppose you do have all the crap they did to Southern Cross but that's only indicative of how Robotech failed since the most altered series is the least liked in its altered state.

Here is what some hardcore Robotech fans really think of Southern Cross

Hachiko said:

I'll entertain notions of Robotech > Macross

I'll even play along with New Generation > Mospeada

However, does anyone actually believe that Masters > Southern Cross?

Posted 10/22/2009 at 01:22:43 PM

Chris McFeely said:

Hachiko said:

However, does anyone actually believe that Masters > Southern Cross?

poo YEAH I'd believe it. I JUST watched the Masters for the first time, and it was pretty f*$king despicable, and while I've not seen Southern Cross, the elements that I enjoyed the most in the story were the ones I could tell had been added for the Robotech version.

Posted 10/22/2009 at 04:33:50 PM

Rick Hunter (professional American) said:

yeah WTF is this Macross crap. It's a rip off of Robotech!! Just Like Southern Cross is a rip off of Robotech

Posted 10/23/2009 at 07:07:40 AM

[anime52k8]

Hmm, you know what I think the VA-3M invader may be more in line with "B2 Spirit". It was the variable bomber in Macross VF-X2.

uh... no.

The VA-3M is a float plane derivative of the VA-3. The VA-3 first shows up in "This is Animation Special: Macross Plus" as a final design which itself originated as the A-9b from Air Cav chronicles. and the A-9B is based loosely off the A-6 intruder.

V

V

V

Edited October 23, 2009 by anime52k8

[Jasonc]

While OT, I will say that I love the VA-3 Invader. The retro look is just awesome.

[Capt Christopher Donovan]

Actually, I think it's really the other way around, that you're reading a lot into the story that frankly wasn't the intent of the Japanese creators or the American rewriters/editors. Yes, the futility and pointlessness of war is a recurring theme, mainly because that was a common theme in many shows of that period, but this isn't Star Trek, these are three unrelated shows smashed together with a hasty rewrite... not a single unified vision, and certainly not a platform for social commentary. It was, after all, a heavily dumbed-down version of the originals marketed to young children.

Writers sometimes incorporate far more into their work than even THEY know. It woudln't be the first time. And, after reviewing the treatment for the next part HappyPenguins was kind enough to send me, it turns out I was absolutely right about the situation with Scott/Ariel.

What cure? EoTC establishes that the whole thing is a stable time loop, sending the SDF-3 back in time and making them the root cause of all of the genocide, hatred, and oppression in the galaxy. They don't solve anything.

Only because the story is not yet done. The treatment establishes that the end result of all that pain and suffering is the beginning of man's (and Tirolians, and Zentradi, etc) ascent to the "next level of development". The genocides and holocausts are "birth pains" in the development of the collected "human" race beyond it's present state.

It's not a question of accepting things a face value, it's a matter of the intent of the show's creators, and willing suspension of disbelief. Macross's creators have repeatedly, and on no uncertain terms, established the SDF-1 Macross's length to be 1,210m. That's really not open to debate. That's what the official publications say, and what the animation shows. Yes, the city layout in the original series is slightly unfeasible, but that's what willing suspension of disbelief is for. You're a self-professed gearhead, do you have similar beefs with other sci-fi ships and technologies like this? More often than not, set design for the interior spaces of a ship clashes with the ship's exterior. Star Trek was particularly bad about it, often having large, plot-critical rooms with large windows that were clearly not present on the physical model of the ship. You just sort of have to take the creators at their word.

And Treknologists (ie, "Trek gear heads") argue that all the time. There's only really been ONE set that frakked up big time, and that was the Rec Deck from TMP.

Well, you're not dealing with conventional rocket booster technology, you're dealing with an impulse system cluster, which is essentially a mix of a nuclear pulse rocket and ion thruster. It doesn't have to be very big, and there's no denying that that nozzle cluster is BIG. Just eyeballing it, I'd say the meat of the engines is that large block of space immediately under the city part of the leg... y'know, the mess that's a good 50m or more thick down there. Plenty of space for a large engine system. Ion thrusters aren't the most hardware-intensive of propulsion systems after all.

That propulsion system still has to push some 18 million+ mt of ship...you aren't going to do that with some ion thruster. And a pulse rocket is going to HAVE to have much bigger engines.

Well, not to split hairs, but the proper term is "Variable Fighter" or "Valkyrie", not "veritech"... that's a Robotech-only term.

Not to split further hairs, but isn't Valkyrie only applicable to the original F-14 inspired fighters? The latter mecha have their own designations ("Invader", "Nightmare", etc).

There are two different models of variable fighter that bear a strong resemblance to the F-117A Nighthawk... both from the main Macross continuity. There's Macross 7's VF-17D/S Nightmare, a special forces VF (see here), and a simplified general-use version that became the main VF of the U.N. forces in the early 2050s... the VF-171 Nightmare Plus (see here). Not sure what the B-2 Spirit-looking thing could be... perhaps this, or this, or perhaps this, from Kawamori's Air Cavalry Chronicles original design series?

The ones I had were indeed the VF-17D "Nightmare" and the AF-49. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

I assure you there's nothing passive-aggressive about it. This is a simple illustration of the sort of behavior that warrants individual criticism in this thread. Unfortunately, there are a fair few people who behave exactly the same way, and they are those rare Robotech fans who DO get directly criticized for their behavior here. The reason why they warrant criticism is because their... well, crazy... behavior doesn't just reflect poorly on them. These people typically profess to speak for the Robotech fanbase as a whole, and thus shame every Robotech fan with their actions. I think that definitely warrants harsh criticism. It's not a shot at Robotech fans in general. Their unusual devotion aside, most of them are decent-enough people. It's only the most exceptional troublemakers... the ones who give Robotech fans a bad name by association... who ever warrant a mention in this thread.

If we're going to get along at all in here, we're simply going to have to agree to disagree and move on. My interests at present are pretty specific in the type of information I'm looking for and once obtaining it, I'll probably be doing more "lurking" than posting. Either way, I'm through arguing.

[Capt Christopher Donovan]

The VA-X3

Its in mahq.net Macross section , under Advanced Valkyrie

Hmm, you know what I think the VA-3M invader may be more in line with "B2 Spirit". It was the variable bomber in Macross VF-X2.

the other site that has this designates it the AF-49...does anyone know which is the correct designation?

[Capt Christopher Donovan]

While OT, I will say that I love the VA-3 Invader. The retro look is just awesome.

Yeah, it is! I'm planning on incorporating it into an RPG I'm trying to get going.

[taksraven]

Taksraven

[azrael]

Not to split further hairs, but isn't Valkyrie only applicable to the original F-14 inspired fighters? The latter mecha have their own designations ("Invader", "Nightmare", etc).

No. Although other VFs have their own designations, "Valkyrie" can apply to VFs in general, especially after the introduction of the VF-1 Valkyrie.

the other site that has this designates it the AF-49...does anyone know which is the correct designation?

Depends on which series we're talking about. The AF-49 was a design based on the VA-X-3. The AF-49 is for Air Cavalary Chronicles while the VA-X-3 is for Advanced Valkyrie.

http://mahq.net/mecha/macross/aircavalry/af-49.htm

http://mahq.net/mecha/macross/advvalk/va-x-3.htm

[Jasonc]

Yeah, it is! I'm planning on incorporating it into an RPG I'm trying to get going.

Is it going to be a Robotech RPG??? I sincerely hope not, cause it's that kind of hacking off of Macross that really perpetuates the anger some Macross fans feel. If it's something on your own, all I can say is, you picked a good design.

[Gubaba]

Not to split further hairs, but isn't Valkyrie only applicable to the original F-14 inspired fighters? The latter mecha have their own designations ("Invader", "Nightmare", etc).

They do have their own designations, but "Valkyrie" is always used as shorthand for all VFs in Macross. So yeah, the VF-17 is still a "Valkyrie."

Yeah, it is! I'm planning on incorporating it into an RPG I'm trying to get going.

Is this a Robotech RPG...? No offense, but's considered bad form to take from Macross to plump out Robotech. It's not as bad as, say, taking Macross Zero clips and adding "My Time to Be a Star" over it, but still...it's frowned upon by most fans, Macross and Robotech alike.

EDIT: DAMMIT! Ninja'd by Azrael AND jasonc...? My reflexes must be slow today...

Edited October 23, 2009 by Gubaba

[Mommar]

Forgive my newbie ignorance but is this not the Harmony Gold and Robotech section of the forum? Despite the love people here may have for Macross this is the place to discuss Robotech and as such I believe the term is Veritech and not Valkyrie.

Edited October 23, 2009 by Mommar

[Gubaba]

Forgive my newbie ignorance but is this not the Harmony Gold and Robotech section of the forum? Despite the love people here may have for Macross this is the place to discuss Robotech and as such I believe the term is Veritech and not Valkyrie.

:lol:

(At least, I think you're being sarcastic... )

[taksraven]

:lol:

(At least, I think you're being sarcastic... )

Hope he's being sarcastic??

Taksraven