Need Urgent Help On A Car Question

[the white drew carey]

Mods- I'm sorry I posted this as a separate thread from the auto forum, but I need the trusted advice of my fellow MWers and wanted it to be seen ASAP.

In preparation for our move to France, my sister and brother-in-law agreed to watch my wife's 2000 New Beetle while we are gone. We had the car serviced before we handed it over, and were told that there was a small coolant leak into the engine that would not be any problem as long as the oil was changed on schedule.

Anyhow, less than two days after handing it over, my brother-in-law, in a moment of idiocy, puts diesel into a unleaded car. Luckily he only put in four gallons and the tank was almost empty, so he was able to immediately fill the rest up with high octane and and octane boosters and get it to run and burn through the diesel.

Now, two weeks later they are telling me to engine temp light is going off even on short drives. His mechanic thinks it is a problem with the coolant pump impeller (which is a known issue with the New Beetle), and it will be $750 to fix.

My question is: Can his mistake of putting diesel in the engine also be complicit in this engine heat error?

[AcroRay]

Try "Car Talk" on National Public Radio. All the car shop guys I know listen to it!

http://cartalk.com/

[emajnthis]

I'm surprised the car was able to burn through the diesel, it must've just burned it as heavily diluted gasoline because diesel won't even combust in an unleaded gas motor. Diesels don't use spark plugs, they rely on high compression (hence why a lot of them are turbocharged as well) to ignite the fuel where as unleaded would rely strictly on the spark plug. Did you actually make it through the whole tank of diesel/unleaded mixture because i'd be concerned more for the motor if the diesel wasn't siphoned out. I don't think that would effect your coolant system at all though, they function pretty separately. I would imagine if it effected anything it would be your emissions system like O2 sensors since burning through the dilluted gas would be really tough on the motor. That's just my two cents though.

Edited July 24, 2009 by emajnthis

[thegunny]

Diesels don't use fuel injectors,

This isn't helping the original question but diesels have been using fuel injectors long before they were used on petrol engines.

As to the original question; I'd be looking for a new brother in law.

Due to the strange mixture of fuel your equally strange brother in law ran your car on, he could well have blown the head gasket which could lead to the temp light coming on as it could be allowing combustion blow by into the coolant jacket.

Edited July 24, 2009 by thegunny

[Knight26]

Gunny is right, they should have drained the fuel, not "burned through it" they basically could have just killed your engine. And somehow I am doubting he told his mechanic that he put diesel into it, otherwise the mechanic would have smacked upside the head and told him a much different price.

[emajnthis]

This isn't helping the original question but diesels have been using fuel injectors long before they were used on petrol engines.

As to the original question; I'd be looking for a new brother in law.

Due to the strange mixture of fuel your equally strange brother in law ran your car on, he could well have blown the head gasket which could lead to the temp light coming on as it could be allowing combustion blow by into the coolant jacket.

i didn't mean to write fuel injectors i meant to write spark plugs but thanks for finding the mistake, that changes the context completely The point i was making is that deisel fuel won't combust in a petrol motor due to there not being high enough compression so if it did "burn" somehow i can't imagine it being a good thing for the motor.

EDIT: i'm brain dead today, spelling and grammar all over the place

Edited July 24, 2009 by emajnthis

[ahiachris]

Mods- I'm sorry I posted this as a separate thread from the auto forum, but I need the trusted advice of my fellow MWers and wanted it to be seen ASAP.

In preparation for our move to France, my sister and brother-in-law agreed to watch my wife's 2000 New Beetle while we are gone. We had the car serviced before we handed it over, and were told that there was a small coolant leak into the engine that would not be any problem as long as the oil was changed on schedule.

Anyhow, less than two days after handing it over, my brother-in-law, in a moment of idiocy, puts diesel into a unleaded car. Luckily he only put in four gallons and the tank was almost empty, so he was able to immediately fill the rest up with high octane and and octane boosters and get it to run and burn through the diesel.

Now, two weeks later they are telling me to engine temp light is going off even on short drives. His mechanic thinks it is a problem with the coolant pump impeller (which is a known issue with the New Beetle), and it will be $750 to fix.

My question is: Can his mistake of putting diesel in the engine also be complicit in this engine heat error?

He should have find a mechanic to drain the fuel tank of all the diesel instead of filling it all up with gasoline.

Depends on the mixture strength on whether the engine will run on diesel or not.

Do you mean the engine temp light going on or going off??

Most of the lights on the dash board are telltale lamps which lights up when the system is in operation (indicators, mainbeam) or warning lamps (battery charge, engine lamp, engine oil lamp, air bag, ABS...) they light up when there's a problem with the system.

And do you mean coolant leak or engine lubricant leak???

Coolant leak means that the cooling system is loosing engine coolant (water) and it does not affect the engine oil (lubricant). Why would leaking coolant be corrected when engine oil is change periodically.

You better be sure of the probelm yourself or ask for a trustworthy mechanic to look into the problem.

[ahiachris]

He should have find a mechanic to drain the fuel tank of all the diesel instead of filling it all up with gasoline.

Depends on the mixture strength on whether the engine will run on diesel or not.

Do you mean the engine temp light going on or going off??

Most of the lights on the dash board are telltale lamps which lights up when the system is in operation (indicators, mainbeam) or warning lamps (battery charge, engine lamp, engine oil lamp, air bag, ABS...) they light up when there's a problem with the system.

And do you mean coolant leak or engine lubricant leak???

Coolant leak means that the cooling system is loosing engine coolant (water) and it does not affect the engine oil (lubricant). Why would leaking coolant be corrected when engine oil is change periodically. The coolant is now getting into the engine and mixing with the engine oil. There must be some gasket or oil seal damaged. Your engine will be rusting away.

You better be sure of the probelm yourself or ask for a trustworthy mechanic to look into the problem.

[Keith]

Solution: Give your brother in law the present of a brand new-ish car (your wife's) and have him return the favor to you. Problem solved!

[BeyondTheGrave]

If its a coolant leak it'll be in the oil that is water / antifreeze will be.

Also what color is the exhaust?

But really make him take it to the dealer tell them everything and have them fix it.

(I think current hourly rate for repairs is $85 or more and hour)

Then stick him with the bill since he put diesel in an unleaded car.

[thegunny]

Also what color is the exhaust?

Mine is silver

[BeyondTheGrave]

Mine is silver

that doesn't sound good. its supposed to be mauve.

[David Hingtgen]

Ok, I know leaded pump nozzles are physically incapable of fitting into an unleaded-only fill tube, to prevent things like this. Diesel nozzles though, will fit?

[Hiriyu]

WDC,

I don't know if you are still fishing for advice on this one, but here are my thoughts...

About ten years ago I had a customer make the same mistake, putting about 8 gallons of diesel into a 12-gal tank. The car in question was subject to a recent mechanical restoration which I had performed myself - the engine was brand-new, and was still being broken-in. What amazed me at the time was that the engine actually ran on the diesel, although it was belching, smoking, and knocking like you wouldn't believe. After pumping out and flushing the fuel tank, purging the fuel system (including the mechanical injection pump and injectors), changing the oil, and running a couple of tanks of premium through it, the engine tested healthily and suffered no ill effects. It still runs strong and healthy today.

I've seen multiple catastrophic cooling system failures in VW's and Audis over the years; once a faulty heater-valve caused the heater core in a car I was driving to explode, showering me with steam and scalding hot water from the heater vents - all of the glass instantly fogged (I was on the highway), and I received several 2nd and 3rd degree burns to my legs and feet. Other failures I've personally observed have had to do with the coolant hoses blowing off of their fittings (due to inadequate factory-equipped clamps and mounting hardware), and head gasket failures (usually the result of owners using cheap or low-octane fuels). In my (admittedly biased) experience, I've come to the conclusion that VW cooling systems are absolute junk. There have been numerous class-action suits against VW for the very reasons I've mentioned.

My thinking is that while the diesel-fill wasn't the best thing that could have happened to an already compromised engine, it probably didn't do much to accelerate the problem. If diesel was entering the cooling system in volume (very unlikely), it would most certainly cause it to run hotter.

HTH

[BeyondTheGrave]

WDC,

I don't know if you are still fishing for advice on this one, but here are my thoughts...

About ten years ago I had a customer make the same mistake, putting about 8 gallons of diesel into a 12-gal tank. The car in question was subject to a recent mechanical restoration which I had performed myself - the engine was brand-new, and was still being broken-in. What amazed me at the time was that the engine actually ran on the diesel, although it was belching, smoking, and knocking like you wouldn't believe. After pumping out and flushing the fuel tank, purging the fuel system (including the mechanical injection pump and injectors), changing the oil, and running a couple of tanks of premium through it, the engine tested healthily and suffered no ill effects. It still runs strong and healthy today.

I've seen multiple catastrophic cooling system failures in VW's and Audis over the years; once a faulty heater-valve caused the heater core in a car I was driving to explode, showering me with steam and scalding hot water from the heater vents - all of the glass instantly fogged (I was on the highway), and I received several 2nd and 3rd degree burns to my legs and feet. Other failures I've personally observed have had to do with the coolant hoses blowing off of their fittings (due to inadequate factory-equipped clamps and mounting hardware), and head gasket failures (usually the result of owners using cheap or low-octane fuels). In my (admittedly biased) experience, I've come to the conclusion that VW cooling systems are absolute junk. There have been numerous class-action suits against VW for the very reasons I've mentioned.

My thinking is that while the diesel-fill wasn't the best thing that could have happened to an already compromised engine, it probably didn't do much to accelerate the problem. If diesel was entering the cooling system in volume (very unlikely), it would most certainly cause it to run hotter.

HTH

that makes me not want to buy a vw.

[Hiriyu]

that makes me not want to buy a vw.

You shouldn't imho, unless you are on a corporate lease plan. VW's are the Bic lighter of the automotive world. Audis are slightly better.

[VF Strike Valk]

Take the car in and have it scanned. If the coolant light is on, the ECU should have some error codes stored in it.

A 2.0 Beetle waterpump is around 60 dollars. It does not take 700 dollars worth of labor to replace.

If the car is leaking coolant, check the reservoir...the coolant could be low and would trigger the light.

Check www.vwvortex.com

Edited July 30, 2009 by VF Strike Valk

[thegunny]

Take the car in and have it scanned.

Will it fit in a scanner

[Knight26]

Ok, I know leaded pump nozzles are physically incapable of fitting into an unleaded-only fill tube, to prevent things like this. Diesel nozzles though, will fit?

IIRC Diesel nozzles are smaller then gas nozzles to prevent gas from being put into a diesel, it is an issue of contamination ratio. A little diesel in gas will give your car the hiccups but if it isn't much it won't kill the engine. Putting gas in a diesel on the otherhand can be much more damaging. Also, most diesel handles are green instead of black, so that is usually enough to keep most dumb @$$es from putting it into a gas tank.

[emajnthis]

You shouldn't imho, unless you are on a corporate lease plan. VW's are the Bic lighter of the automotive world. Audis are slightly better.

I own an Audi (A4 1.8t quattro manual), and while i agree it is slightly better, they're still a bitch to work on. It's nothing particularly difficult, but just little things that add up and make things cumbersome. For instance, yesterday i went to change the trans fluid, and it requires a twelve point security bit (the twelve points with the hole in the center) on the drain plug, and no tiny one that you could buy from home depot, the fat boy ones. I had to go to my mechanic friend to find the right size 12 point socket except his wasn't a security bit so we ended up having to grind out the security pillar in the center of the bolt. And when i did a steering fluid flush i couldn't use the BG synthetic from my buddies shop, i had to use Audi specific "synthetic mineral oil". You'd also think that since Audi's (A3/TT are exceptions) are longitudally mounted that it'd be easy to change out the belts (usually it's just pull the radiator and you're ready to get cracking) but not on the Audi, you have to remove the front bumper to get to everything. In all honesty though, i've had nearly no problems with it mechanically, while my VW was in my garage more often than on the road, so there must be better QC or manufacturing on the Audi side of things.

[VF Strike Valk]

Will it fit in a scanner

Theres an OBD 2 port on the underside of the dash. You can take it to your local Autozone and have it scanned for P codes, or have it scanned by someone with a Vag Com...or have it scanned by the dealer with a 1552...but I'm sure your joking.

[D_Unit]

You might need to look for reasons other than the suspected fuel mishap. VW's are notorious for their lack of quality and durability (although they have been getting better recently). I used to have relatives and friends that own VW's and they had nothing but problems; they've sworn never to own one gain. It's too bad though, the new models are pretty good (and cool to look at).

Edited July 31, 2009 by D_Unit

[myk]

A 2.0 Beetle waterpump is around 60 dollars. It does not take 700 dollars worth of labor to replace.

It might cost that much. Let's say the pump is worth 60 dollars, but that's BEFORE dealer/repair shop mark-up; that can almost be twice what the pump is worth. Then, typical shops, at least in California, charge anywhere from 90 to 100 bucks an hour for labor. So, if the pump ends up costing $150, and they take about 6 hours to change the pump, it really can cost $750.

If taking 6 hours and $750 seems excessive, my '97 Camaro Z28 would've cost $1400 for a water pump change back in 2003. Luckily, I was able to do the work myself, but seeing how involved the work was (and I was in tears, I kid you not), I can easily see why it takes hours and hundreds for a shop to perform these services. What do we learn from this?

Michael Bay sucks...

[thegunny]

Theres an OBD 2 port on the underside of the dash. You can take it to your local Autozone and have it scanned for P codes, or have it scanned by someone with a Vag Com...or have it scanned by the dealer with a 1552...but I'm sure your joking.

I'm a blonde female car driver so of course I'm serious

[VF Strike Valk]

It might cost that much. Let's say the pump is worth 60 dollars, but that's BEFORE dealer/repair shop mark-up; that can almost be twice what the pump is worth. Then, typical shops, at least in California, charge anywhere from 90 to 100 bucks an hour for labor. So, if the pump ends up costing $150, and they take about 6 hours to change the pump, it really can cost $750.

If taking 6 hours and $750 seems excessive, my '97 Camaro Z28 would've cost $1400 for a water pump change back in 2003. Luckily, I was able to do the work myself, but seeing how involved the work was (and I was in tears, I kid you not), I can easily see why it takes hours and hundreds for a shop to perform these services. What do we learn from this?

Michael Bay sucks...

Its not that complicated. Its on the passenger side block. I can be done in under two hours guaranteed.

edit: can't spell

Edited July 31, 2009 by VF Strike Valk

[Whamhammer]

As far as diesel fuel in a gas engine goes;

1) they needed to drain the tank first (its sad they didnt)

2) many times the fuel pumps get wasted if you drive with the diesel in them enough. Usuall the parts list includes a new fuel pump and fuel filter, occasionally new spark plugs if there was fouling ( a good idea to replaceat this point anyways to besure). If its really bad the catalytic converter can get fouled up and need replacing too (as well as o2/air fuel ratio sensors).

3) Diesel fuel spouts (at least on the East coast) are larger diameter than gasoline spouts, mainly so you cant just insert the diesel in you filler neck. (but it happens anyways )

4) At my dealer , we had a local gas station that got replenished and the driver filled the tanks incorrectly. The diesel went into the 87 and 87 in the diesel tank (luckily I use 93 , I use that station!!!! ) and we got in about 40 or so cars and trucks that fell prey to it , fun, fun, fun. But at least it was a paying jon

[Hiriyu]

I own an Audi (A4 1.8t quattro manual), and while i agree it is slightly better, they're still a bitch to work on. It's nothing particularly difficult, but just little things that add up and make things cumbersome. For instance, yesterday i went to change the trans fluid, and it requires a twelve point security bit (the twelve points with the hole in the center) on the drain plug, and no tiny one that you could buy from home depot, the fat boy ones. I had to go to my mechanic friend to find the right size 12 point socket except his wasn't a security bit so we ended up having to grind out the security pillar in the center of the bolt. And when i did a steering fluid flush i couldn't use the BG synthetic from my buddies shop, i had to use Audi specific "synthetic mineral oil". You'd also think that since Audi's (A3/TT are exceptions) are longitudally mounted that it'd be easy to change out the belts (usually it's just pull the radiator and you're ready to get cracking) but not on the Audi, you have to remove the front bumper to get to everything. In all honesty though, i've had nearly no problems with it mechanically, while my VW was in my garage more often than on the road, so there must be better QC or manufacturing on the Audi side of things.

I missed your reply back the first time around. Agreed with everything you mention. While the intrinsic quality of VW/Audi products is actually pretty decent, it is for the service life and basic serviceability that I describe VWs as akin to a Bic lighter. About 15 years ago, I helped a friend replace the engine in his early '90's Jetta... It kind of raised my eyebrows that the first step given in the service manual was in fact to remove the rear seat . Before that job was done, the entire front end of the vehicle (core support, lights, grilles, etc.) had to be removed and refitted. I do love German cars though; BMW, Mercedes and Porsches all seem generally to be much more service friendly and sane.

[Dante74]

WTF?! Spambots get smarter by the day!

[Keith]

WTF?! Spambots get smarter by the day!

LOL, FREAKIN' INTERNET A.I.!! GHOST IN THE SHELL IS NOW!!

[David Hingtgen]

Scary. Banned/deleted, but scary.

[Keith]

Scary. Banned/deleted, but scary.

Leave it to Grace to save us from evil spambot A.I.'s!

[David Hingtgen]

All to make room for my own...