Who is the Best Pilot?

[eugimon]

I'm not going to bother to argue after this. You're not even watching the episode in motion and you clearly have an agenda to push. For example, for the rear shot of the planes, you say "Look! Some were only single glow therefore they couldn't be valkyries!", then you go to the part with 4 valkyries flying off and you say "Meh, animation error". Of course, conveniently ignoring how that very same scene has 8 valkyries.

Of course, this also misses how if what you're saying is completely true, 3-5 valkyries managed to destroy 30 attack pods with only minor damage to the shuttle.

As for episode 18, oh yeah, I'm sure YOU would be able to ignore being attacked by the best ace of the enemy fleet to cover your squadron. Especially when the whole operation was to isolate Max just for Milia to fight him. Not to mention how Roy gets hit AFTER he ORDERS Max to bug out.

I have an agenda? You took a joke and threw a hissy fit over it, called it a copout when it was pointed out to you by me it was a joke, and even after azreal told us to cut it out went back and edited your previous post at least 2 times just so you could keep going on about a JOKE and you're saying I have an agenda?

How can you say I'm not watching it in motion. Watch the scene. The debris fall down diagonally across the screen, at about the same time a projectile of some sort flies TOWARDS the shuttle and in the next scene the shuttle gets tagged. How is that remotely the same thing as shuttle and debris occupying the same space?

And which is it? Is it 8 valks or 12? How does the numbering work when three designators are called and 4 leave? Animation error works far better than in just this one episode they decided to change the entire designation system and change squads to numbers where each squad has a random number of fighters. This episode is fraught with animation errors, for example: When Max launches he has no missiles but later on he has missiles. Where did the missiles come from? At the end of the episode there's a kid next to miryia and he changes from shot to shot, different kid, different clothes but always a kid there.

So yeah, when the show clearly designates a system where squads have names and individual fighters int he squad have number designators, I'm gonna go with that even if the animation shows something slightly different like 3 lasers on a 1a head

If it is 10 valks versus (since by any math presumably at least 2 valks come back when the regroup order is given) 60, 6 on 1 is not that lopsided of fight by SDFM standards. It's actually harder to believe that it would take max and 9 other fighters 20 minutes to kill 30 pods... considering the end of that battle is hikaru showing up and taking out the other half in one giant salvo of missiles.

The whole point of having wingmen is so that you can watch each other'back. Look at the intro to DYRL, Plus or Zero to see how wingmen cover each other and set each other up for easy kills, even selfish hotshot pilots like Isamu can track what's going on with the battle at large, not just their little dogfight. So yes, roy gets shot AFTER Max flies off on his own to dogfight by himself with Miryia, for so long that it becomes obvious to the bridge crew and get's called back. He could have called for help and taken out the enemy ace but in both SDFM and DYRL, he chooses to leave his wingmen and go after the kill on his own.

[Dangard Ace]

Devils Advocate:

I wonder how Milia decided Max was the ace pilot on the Macross. She only went after the Macross to fight the "one ace pilot on the Macross" on Kamjin's word and Kamjin never fought Max he always fought Hikaru.....

[ChronoReverse]

And which is it? Is it 8 valks or 12? How does the numbering work when three designators are called and 4 leave? Animation error works far better than in just this one episode they decided to change the entire designation system and change squads to numbers where each squad has a random number of fighters.

One is a scene showing the entire group from the distance where the whole formation is smaller than the screen. The other is a zoomed in shot that even cuts out most of Max's valkyrie. You're not even trying.

[eugimon]

Devils Advocate:

I wonder how Milia decided Max was the ace pilot on the Macross. She only went after the Macross to fight the "one ace pilot on the Macross" on Kamjin's word and Kamjin never fought Max he always fought Hikaru.....

The following is considered to be what is commonly known as a "joke" and is not intended for purposes other than "shits and giggles":

Considering Hikaru was laid up in the hospital during the max/miryia encounter, we'll never know...! *

*please not the inclusion of a "smiley face with tongue out" commonly used to denote mischievousness to further reinforce the notion of the "joke"

[eugimon]

One is a scene showing the entire group from the distance where the whole formation is smaller than the screen. The other is a zoomed in shot that even cuts out most of Max's valkyrie. You're not even trying.

So what is it? So, 12 man group, max calls out three numbers, so let's say you're right and numbers are now squad designators, with 3 man squads that means 9 fighters left to intercept leaving 3 fighters behind to guard the shuttle.

So now he didn't even split his flight in half or as you say "left the majority to guard the shuttle" now he's sent off 2/3rds of his command leaving the shuttle even that more defenseless. So let's say that scenario is correct, it still shows Max to be somewhat short of glorious as a commander.

Edited September 22, 2009 by eugimon

[ChronoReverse]

Erm, since we see more than 3 fighters behind when the fighters go off, isn't the simple solution simply that

(1) Max sent off _more_ than three fighters

(2) There were at _least_ 9 (or 12) fighters in the escort

It's not a particularly hard to swallow conclusion that there may have been more than 12 fighters is it? Let's say 6 squads of 3 which makes for 18 fighters? Still badly outnumbered over 3 to 1 by the second attack wave alone. Besides, 20 minutes was the absolute longest it took for Hikaru to get there since. In fact, it MUST be shorter than that since 20 minutes is how long it would take enroute reinforcements to arrive. The point of sending Hikaru is to get there earlier.

In any case, the odds were clearly bad for the escort if Global thought that they wouldn't be able to protect the shuttle the 20 minutes for reinforcements to arrive (which makes sense considering how soft a target the shuttle is).

Edited September 22, 2009 by ChronoReverse

[eugimon]

Erm, since we see more than 3 fighters behind when the fighters go off, isn't the simple solution simply that

(1) Max sent off _more_ than three fighters

(2) There were at _least_ 9 (or 12) fighters in the escort

It's not a particularly hard to swallow conclusion is it?

Yeah, who needs dialog, let's just make up our own story. Oh wait, that was Robotech.

edit in response to your edit:

So either way, "meh, animation error"

Edited September 22, 2009 by eugimon

[ChronoReverse]

Why? Does the dialog contradict what I just said?

(incidentally, in the light of the previous thread, this technically isn't quite on topic either)

Edited September 22, 2009 by ChronoReverse

[eugimon]

Why? Does the dialog contradict what I just said?

(incidentally, in the light of the previous thread, this technically isn't quite on topic either)

Only in that you need to keep adding to the number of fighters to remain consistent with what you said previously. Previously you held that the animation was infallible and mocked my answer of "animation mistake" but in order for what you're saying to work we need to have 6 unseen valkyries and change the designator system that was established and remained constant for the previous 23 episodes and that gets adopted again following this particular episode. So either way, there are animation errors. My way just leaves it at that, your way needs to add script errors on top of it.

And if you keep adding numbers to th escort squad it becomes increasingly less impressive that Max was able to hold off until Hikaru arrives and it just makes Hikaru that much more impressive that he was able to do in one fell swoop what took 12 fighters something less than 20 mins to accomplish.

And only kinda, it goes to the idea of what "best" is. Is the best pilot someone who gets the most kills or is it the pilot with best awareness of the greater battle and who works with and the other pilots?

[ChronoReverse]

Wait what? Let's say it was entirely animation error and that Max did in fact only send 3 fighters as you say. Are you saying that Max could have done better against 20 to 1 odds (3 fighters versus 60)?

And what Hikaru did _was_ impressive. It's the (proper) introduction of the Super Valkyrie and it definitely made a wow. Plus Hikaru is a great pilot as well O_o

Previously you held that the animation was infallible and mocked my answer of "animation mistake"

I think you completely misread what I meant. I was mocking you for holding one scene as accurate that some of the engines lights are single so they can't be valkyries while at the same time saying the another scene must be inaccurate because the number of fighters Max mentions is fewer than the valkyries that moved.

Edited September 22, 2009 by ChronoReverse

[dreamweaver13]

Devils Advocate:

I wonder how Milia decided Max was the ace pilot on the Macross. She only went after the Macross to fight the "one ace pilot on the Macross" on Kamjin's word and Kamjin never fought Max he always fought Hikaru.....

Seduced by the Devil's Advocate:

So Kamjin was actually referring to Hikaru the whole time?? the one human pilot who actually managed to damage him in action?? wow, talk about a case of mistaken identity.

Kamjin: you mean, there was someone even better than the Ace i fought?? *faints*

[eugimon]

Wait what? Let's say it was entirely animation error and that Max did in fact only send 3 fighters as you say. Are you saying that Max could have done better against 20 to 1 odds?

Are we talking about Max here? Yeah, I think Max and 2 other guys could have held off 60 fighters for 10-20 mins, sure. In other episodes we see max taking out 5-10 fighters by himself just in the opening salvo, that dude is a killing machine. The show took great pains to show hw badass max and how ineffective the battle pods were, I don't think it's out of the question at all.

And at 18 fighters that's almost 10% of the SDF-1's valkyries at the time.

I think you completely misread what I meant. I was mocking you for holding one scene as accurate that some of the engines lights are single so they can't be valkyries while at the same time saying the another scene must be inaccurate because the number of fighters Max mentions is fewer than the valkyries that moved.

No, I got that and your mocking, like the rest of your argument doesn't make sense. Why is laughable that one animation error would be followed by another. It's already been established with max and his uber missile payload that the animators felt the need to fudge the script when they felt the need.

Edited September 22, 2009 by eugimon

[ChronoReverse]

They can hold them off sure but they were trying to protect a shuttle. That's an entirely different thing from the norm (protecting Macross or deep space battle).

Furthermore, in the other times, like you said, they took them out with the opening salvos. This is something Max and his wingmen didn't have the luxury of since they were ambushed. When Hikaru arrives of course, we see what happens when you can get such a salvo off.

Besides committing even 10% of the fighters to protecting someone who's on a mission you think will save humanity (from being wasted by the Zentraedi fleet) doesn't seem particularly extravagant.

No, I got that and your mocking, like the rest of your argument doesn't make sense. Why is laughable that one animation error would be followed by another.

No it's not laughable that an animation error could be followed by another. However, you assumed the lights being single isn't an error when that in itself could be an error or simply an artistic shortcut. The problem is that you're picking and choosing without admission to it. I have at least acknowledged your interpretation of the animation errors several times and used it to show that it doesn't make out Max to have been as bad as you say regardless.

Edited September 22, 2009 by ChronoReverse

[eugimon]

They can hold them off sure but they were trying to protect a shuttle. That's an entirely different thing from the norm (protecting Macross or deep space battle).

Furthermore, in the other times, like you said, they took them out with the opening salvos. This is something Max and his wingmen didn't have the luxury of since they were ambushed. When Hikaru arrives of course, we see what happens when you can get such a salvo off.

And yet the opening sequence of them attacking the shuttle starts with one of them getting hit and blowing up, immediately followed by another.

edit::

It is extravagant when compared to other escort missions that only had 1 squad. Launching six squads on what is supposed to be a secret mission to earth on the other hand does seem a bit much. And Hikaru then becomes the most incompetent CAG of all time to not notice 18 fighters being rescheduled for 1 mission.

Edited September 22, 2009 by eugimon

[ChronoReverse]

Indeed. Right after the shot of the pods firing first.

Interesting. The single engines are in fact _not_ an animation error. The single engines are ghost drones!

That makes for 6 ghost drones and 6 valkyries by my count. This means that the part with Max counting 3 units with 4 valkyries moving is more likely an animation error in both number of valkyries moving and number of valkyries on screen.

This doesn't negate that he remained fairly close to the shuttle. Since it's not feasible to just stand right besides the shuttle, simply being in battroid fighting range of the shuttle is still close range.

Edited September 22, 2009 by ChronoReverse

[Dangard Ace]

Seduced by the Devil's Advocate:

So Kamjin was actually referring to Hikaru the whole time?? the one human pilot who actually managed to damage him in action?? wow, talk about a case of mistaken identity.

Kamjin: you mean, there was someone even better than the Ace i fought?? *faints*

That's assuming you believe that Max is the better pilot.

I will grant you what Max did to save them on Britai's ship was impressive and would take a superior ace to do but if you watch Hikaru vs Kamjin during at least one of their on Earth battles you'll see Max and Hayao get pinned down and ducking for cover, Hikaru actually takes the time to save his squad while still fighting Kamjin off. So who's the better pilot?

Max is definitely showcased throughout SDFM and DYRL as the bad ass pilot, but when push comes to shove who do they give the "do or die save all humanity" mission assignments to? That's right, it's Hikaru.

Oh and I didn't vote either of them as best pilot.

[Golden Arms]

How the Heck does Isamu get more votes than Roy? Some members need to be drug tested.

[eugimon]

Indeed. Right after the shot of the pods firing first.

Interesting. The single engines are in fact _not_ an animation error. The single engines are ghost drones!

That makes for 6 ghost drones and 6 valkyries by my count. This means that the part with Max counting 3 units with 4 valkyries moving is more likely an animation error in both number of valkyries moving and number of valkyries on screen.

This doesn't negate that he remained fairly close to the shuttle. Since it's not feasible to just stand right besides the shuttle, simply being in battroid fighting range of the shuttle is still close range.

But it was hardly an "ambush" in the traditional sense. They knew they were coming and had warning. And it is in space, it wasn't like they jumped out behind them from an asteroid or something.

Anyways, I feel I need to explain something at this point. In Lone Wolf and Cub there's a scene where a disgraced guard asks if it was right of him to charge into battle or if he should have stayed next to the palaquin. *This* is the joke I was referencing. I'll only say that I have a nasty head cold and say I should have explained the joke at the beginning of all this. ,

[RDClip]

Max is definitely showcased throughout SDFM and DYRL as the bad ass pilot, but when push comes to shove who do they give the "do or die save all humanity" mission assignments to? That's right, it's Hikaru.

Oh and I didn't vote either of them as best pilot.

Seems that your example just show that Hikaru is a better decision maker at that point. During SW1, Max was the pilot with the most raw talent, but Hikaru was more mature and less reckless. It's pretty clear in M7, that with 35 years of experience no one is a match for Max, most likely even Hikaru (wherever he disappeared to).

[ChronoReverse]

But it was hardly an "ambush" in the traditional sense. They knew they were coming and had warning. And it is in space, it wasn't like they jumped out behind them from an asteroid or something.

Heh, that's one interesting thing about this episode. The way the Macross gave warnings to the escort group, it was as if they really were just appearing on the sensor screens out of nowhere (although, as you've said, the escorts had some warning time). Which seems silly since they're in space =). I suppose it could be handwaved as radiation belts or something since they were near Earth.

Still, the Zentraedi had the luxury of dictating the initial flow of battle whereas the escorts couldn't exactly charge out there to fire their missiles and it showed when the pods got to fire first (and subsequently was wasted by Max).

Edited September 22, 2009 by ChronoReverse

[Dangard Ace]

Seems that your example just show that Hikaru is a better decision maker at that point. During SW1, Max was the pilot with the most raw talent, but Hikaru was more mature and less reckless. It's pretty clear in M7, that with 35 years of experience no one is a match for Max, most likely even Hikaru (wherever he disappeared to).

Haha! Mr. Lingerie more mature, less reckless and a better decision maker? All I've got to do is point at Miss Macross and the GBP.

Max in M7. Well seeing as I don't like M7 and I prefer to pretend I never saw it at all, even after repeated viewings, I do remember Max flying the VF-22 against the Protodevilin.....and doing jack squat. Plus Hikaru and Misa vanished into the center of the universe(ie their story is done. SK won't go back to them). We'll never know how they would have matched up in their advanced age.

[eugimon]

Heh, that's one interesting thing about this episode. The way the Macross gave warnings to the escort group, it was as if they really were just appearing on the sensor screens out of nowhere (although, as you've said, the escorts had some warning time). Which seems silly since they're in space =). I suppose it could be handwaved as radiation belts or something since they were near Earth.

Still, the Zentraedi had the luxury of dictating the initial flow of battle whereas the escorts couldn't exactly charge out there to fire their missiles and it showed when the pods got to fire first (and subsequently was wasted by Max).

I think the idea is that they were only detected once they started moving, but whatever.. the pods were far enough away to be beyond visual range and the Macross detected them before the attack so... it makes no sense either way. haha.

[nexxstrait]

Where the hell are Sylvie, Nexx and Liza? And why is Maya Sterling from Robotech listed here?