Copycats

[kensei]

Say, I don't know if anyone here reads Battletach novels but theres something here that interesting, I don't know if andyones come across this before.

Some of the mech designs here are either strikingly simular to Macross Mecha or exactly the same. Did Shoji Kawamori allow this to happen?

Here are the Macross Rip Offs Battletech has done:

Stinger - VF-1A Battroid Mode

Wasp - VF-1S Battroid Mode

Phoenix Hawk - Super VF-1S

Archer - Spartan

Rifleman - Defender

Warhammer - Tomahawk

Phoenix Hawk Land-Air Mech - Super VF-1 Gerwalk Mode

Naga - Phalanx

Marauder 1 and 2 - Officer's Battle Pod (Sorry don't know the real name)

Crusader - GBP-1A

Damn that's a lot!

[Commander McBride]

This is quite well known. I have a feeling Kawamori has no idea about it, but HG certainly did, they forced their removal from BT.

[kensei]

Oh, ok. Good thing they did. You know, the ones based on the macross designs were portrayed as the most primative and crappiest mechs. How insulting.

[motley]

FASA (who originally created Battletech) acquired the rights to some macross mechandise back in the day, i think they were the inheiritors to Revel's Robotech line, as the early battletech designs borrow heavily from Dovorak and Dragonar as well. later they appropriated the designs into their battletech miniatures game and the pen and paper RPG. whethor or not they were stealing the designs is debatable, but they had some rights to them. the ultimate decision would have come from the court decision from the HG vs FASA court case, but it was settled out of court with a non-disclosure agreement, so the issue remains largely unsettled, except that, obviously FASA stopped using the designs, and the case ulitmately lead to FASA's bankruptcy and dissolution.

Edited August 24, 2003 by motley

[kensei]

FASA (who originally created Battletech) acquired the rights to some macross mechandise back in the day, i think they were the inheiritors to Revel's Robotech line, as the early battletech designs borrow heavily from Dovorak and Dragonar as well. later they appropriated the designs into their battletech miniatures game and the pen and paper RPG. whethor or not they were stealing the designs is debatable, but they had some rights to them. the ultimate decision would have come from the court decision from the HG vs FASA court case, but it was settled out of court with a non-disclosure agreement, so the issue remains largely unsettled, except that, obviously FASA stopped using the designs, and the case ulitmately lead to FASA's bankruptcy and dissolution.

Damn...tough break for them. Is that why they're not making Mechwarrior 5?

[motley]

from what i've gathered yeah. FASA is no more, though i believe Battletech was acquired by WizKids. that's why they've moved to the rather odd "dark ages" stuff. there may be some issues with the old (original) designs and the new company. and while Dark Ages is the future of battletech, the Wizkids has licenced another company to produce the classic stuff. i'm not exactly sure what's going on with the pen and paper stuff. FASA isn't completely gone, Microsoft has a studio in their video gaming department called FASA studios, and they're the ones who have been making the recent Battletech games.

[UN Spacy]

Did they also use some Dougram mechs as a part of their line? (ShadowHawk Battletech Mech)

[yellowlightman]

the ultimate decision would have come from the court decision from the HG vs FASA court case, but it was settled out of court with a non-disclosure agreement, so the issue remains largely unsettled, except that, obviously FASA stopped using the designs, and the case ulitmately lead to FASA's bankruptcy and dissolution.

I think thats a bit of an exaggeration. If anything, the declining popularity of the tabletop game genre lead to FASA's bankruptancy. The only ill effects of the HG vs. FASA dispute was that FASA can no longer use the Macross inspired designs.

Here's another weird twist, the Japanese version of Battletech had designs by Studio Nue. At one point I had pictures of them and they looked pretty cool. Wish I hadn't lost those.

[Cyclone]

Oh, ok. Good thing they did. You know, the ones based on the macross designs were portrayed as the most primative and crappiest mechs. How insulting.

Only in the (IMO crappy) 3050 on Clan era. 3025 they were literally the only game in town and piloting an Atlas made you almost unbeatable

Cyc

[Cyclone]

The Japanese Locust

[Cyclone]

Japanese Wasp

[Cyclone]

Japanese Stinger

[Cyclone]

That should be enough for now, especially considering the file sizes of the others is beyond the attachment limits here.

I have the full selection of Japanese BT scans they did the rounds on the net ages ago. Anybody got some webspace for 3-4 megs worth of images? I'd email them to people, but that'll get old real quick.

Oh, almost slipped my mind. In an ironic twist, the Japanese versions of the Maruader, Stinger, Wasp and Locust were borrowed and used for different designs in the Solaris 7 area game set, thus becoming official in US BT as well

Cyc

Edited August 24, 2003 by Cyclone

[Commander McBride]

Woah, who did those designs? They almost look somewhere in between Shirow and Kawamori. And that last one bears an uncanny resemblance to an advanced valkyrie design ot two.

[Pat Payne]

from what i've gathered yeah. FASA is no more, though i believe Battletech was acquired by WizKids. that's why they've moved to the rather odd "dark ages" stuff. there may be some issues with the old (original) designs and the new company. and while Dark Ages is the future of battletech, the Wizkids has licenced another company to produce the classic stuff. i'm not exactly sure what's going on with the pen and paper stuff. FASA isn't completely gone, Microsoft has a studio in their video gaming department called FASA studios, and they're the ones who have been making the recent Battletech games.

I don't think it was that at all, much more likely was that they wanted a "fresh start" for the franchise, to get in the new customer base that ha been turned off by the "beer-and-pretzels" BT game, and didn't wnat to have to read pages upon pages of histoy to get inured into the storyline. Besides, the classic 'mechs are still there. The Atlas, Zeus, Mad Cat, etc. haven't gone away.

In fact, WizKids is IIRC run by one Jordan Weisman, the creator of BattleTech.

[Vostok 7]

BT is dying if you ask me. Classic BT anyway.

The "death" of BT has nothing to do with the removal of the Unseens. And, btw, the Unseens were never portrayed as the "crappiest" of mechs. Many of them were quite capable, like the Warhammer/Tomahawk, Marauder/Gulag, and others. Only the LAMs (Land Air Mechs, BTizations of the GERWALKS) and the mech representations of the Valkyries as a whole had any suckage (IMO)... However, the Shadowhawk (IIRC) which was the BTization of the Super VF-1S Battroid (IIRC) was the official mech of the Steiners (IIRC)... Not too shabby.

The Clans used many "unseen" designs and used them quite extensively even if they were "Second Line" mechs.

BTW, WizKids has redesigned the "Unseens" and is now re-releasing them in a George Lucas-esq rewrite of Battletech History (though I don't think they're re-writing history, I believe the official word is that the redesignes are new updated versions of the same old classic 'mechs.)

Vostok 7

[JELEINEN]

FASA (who originally created Battletech) acquired the rights to some macross mechandise back in the day, i think they were the inheiritors to Revel's Robotech line, as the early battletech designs borrow heavily from Dovorak and Dragonar as well. later they appropriated the designs into their battletech miniatures game and the pen and paper RPG. whethor or not they were stealing the designs is debatable, but they had some rights to them. the ultimate decision would have come from the court decision from the HG vs FASA court case, but it was settled out of court with a non-disclosure agreement, so the issue remains largely unsettled, except that, obviously FASA stopped using the designs, and the case ulitmately lead to FASA's bankruptcy and dissolution.

FASA didn't go bankrupt. They simply called it quits. Part of the company went on to found Wizkids (which has since been sold to Topps or one of the other baseball card companies, I forget which). Their RPG titles were licensed off to other companies.

[GobotFool]

Microsoft plans to pursue the mechwarrior line of vid games, how close it stays to the source material is another issue. I also heard rumors that a BT movies was coming in 2005 and thats when the new mechwarrior game is also coming out.

[LePoseur]

This is mostly hearsay from back in the day, but under the legal cloud that ensued, I doubt we'll ever get a real answer. As far I know, when Battletech was originally made and went to press the creators didn't hold any rights to the designs they used. Maybe originally thinking, "Who's gonna notice us?" or the Tommy Yune-like, "Foreign copyrights don't apply to us!" Once it became apparent that Battletech was going to reach the size where it couldn't blatently flaunt the law (ie the game gets popular + Harmony Gold releases Robotech on TV) they scrambled to aquire the rights, which led to some (rumored) deal with Revel.

Remember, this was back in the days when, in all honesty, Japanese animation was so far underground that most people would have really not noticed the designs were stolen. In a side note, the origianl battletech book I had obviously had no artist on the team (at least not one worth their salt) as the mechs were always drawn in their line-art pose (be it mirrored or however slightly adjusted). Infact, although I posses the book no longer, I remember a "picture" of a swamp battle between a line-art Macross mecha and some elementy school kid's robot arm.

Although I played it, I've always looked down on battletech for this. I mean, not so much for stealing the designs, but, if any of them were anime fans (and someone would have had to have been to get the line-art) why did they end up turning otherwise nimble mecha into slow-ass lumbering mechs? And who was the idiot that couldn't line up game stat weapons with the line art? Questions, questions...

[Vostok 7]

Hoooooo boy, here we go.

Yes, there's an argument whether or not FASA rightfully licensed the designs or not. Frankly, I don't want to get into it because it can get just as heated as the Robotech/Macross debate and yet is that much more pathetic to get into since it's an extremely dead, moot issue.

The reason the "nimble" mechas of Macross became "slow, lumbering" 'mechs of BT is because BT is more realistic. Simple as that. Besides, all of the Valkyrie based 'mechs were Light classes. Certainly not "slow" nor "lumbering."

Vostok 7

[JELEINEN]

Amusingly enough, FASA got in trouble with Lucas for Battletech's original title of Battle 'Droids back when it first came out.

If they ever do a re-release of Classic Battletech (as of when Wizkids started putting out their version of BT, it was said that the original game license was held by another company who planned on putting it out, but nothing's been said since then), I really hope they use the Japanese edition designs. Most of the non-licensed mechs were just plain fugly. The game design could use some serious work as well, as having a light and (relatively speaking) nimble mech had no real value in the game. The bigger machines pretty much dominated everything else.

[LePoseur]

Hey, don't go injecting realism into my 60 foot mecha fantasies!

My imaginary mecha can be just as realisticly nimble as yours are realisticly lumbering.

[Lynx7725]

The game design could use some serious work as well, as having a light and (relatively speaking) nimble mech had no real value in the game.  The bigger machines pretty much dominated everything else.

Never met a good player piloting a light 'Mech, have you? It's possible and even probable that a good player conning a light can rip a heavy apart easily. Seen it happen, did it once or twice.

[Vostok 7]

Heck yeah, don't underestimate the lightweights.

There's been a few times I've been pinned down between a rock (lightweight mech) and a hard place (heavyweight mech) and managed to pull my ass out.

My usual choice is a decent Medium, but I'll take whatevers given to me in a pinch.

Vostok 7

[GreenGuy42]

I rarely if ever used heavies in the tabletop games. Hell, a few light mechs with (IIRC... level three rules..?) tags and maybe ONE heavy acting as a fire support/Arrow IV equipped mech worked quite well in taking apart enemy mechs cheaply..

...and I don't know if I like the Japanese designs. The lumbering utilitarian fugliness of BT was part of its attraction to me.

[JELEINEN]

The game design could use some serious work as well, as having a light and (relatively speaking) nimble mech had no real value in the game.  The bigger machines pretty much dominated everything else.

Never met a good player piloting a light 'Mech, have you? It's possible and even probable that a good player conning a light can rip a heavy apart easily. Seen it happen, did it once or twice.

I admit I haven't played since college, but I don't recall being light weight giving any statistical advantage and a whole bunch of disadvantages (less armor, less/lighter weapons, less damage capacity, etc.). What could lights do that heavies couldn't do better? I'm geniuinely curious here.

[GreenGuy42]

The game design could use some serious work as well, as having a light and (relatively speaking) nimble mech had no real value in the game.  The bigger machines pretty much dominated everything else.

Never met a good player piloting a light 'Mech, have you? It's possible and even probable that a good player conning a light can rip a heavy apart easily. Seen it happen, did it once or twice.

I admit I haven't played since college, but I don't recall being light weight giving any statistical advantage and a whole bunch of disadvantages (less armor, less/lighter weapons, less damage capacity, etc.). What could lights do that heavies couldn't do better? I'm geniuinely curious here.

Move quickly, and you get more bang for your C bills. My friends and I played on a credit system, and having three smaller mechs made for some nice gangbangs.

Oh yea, if I'm running circles around you, and knocking your to hit up to levels beyond god, well, your P cannon's just gonna be a big, nice toy. Yea, my to hit's horrid too, but I invested in small, light weaponry, going for the million papercut ideas....

I'd throw in a tag or two, and like I said, let off with some stupidly powerful artillery piece (usually an equipped heavy, guarded by more light mechs in case of attack...) and pound away...

Edited August 25, 2003 by GreenGuy42

[Abombz!!]

FASA (who originally created Battletech) acquired the rights to some macross mechandise back in the day, i think they were the inheiritors to Revel's Robotech line, as the early battletech designs borrow heavily from Dovorak and Dragonar as well.  later they appropriated the designs into their battletech miniatures game and the pen and paper RPG.  whethor or not they were stealing the designs is debatable, but they had some rights to them.  the ultimate decision would have come from the court decision from the HG vs FASA court case, but it was settled out of court with a non-disclosure agreement, so the issue remains largely unsettled, except that, obviously FASA stopped using the designs, and the case ulitmately lead to FASA's bankruptcy and dissolution.

Damn...tough break for them. Is that why they're not making Mechwarrior 5?

Hmmm... if you mean the games.... Microsoft has control over the franchise now (thats why Mechassault is an Xbox exclusive) and as long as MS sees MW as a profitable franchise, and as long as they have the money (read for a long long time), MW games will still be produced.

[kensei]

That should be enough for now, especially considering the file sizes of the others is beyond the attachment limits here.

I have the full selection of Japanese BT scans they did the rounds on the net ages ago. Anybody got some webspace for 3-4 megs worth of images? I'd email them to people, but that'll get old real quick.

Oh, almost slipped my mind. In an ironic twist, the Japanese versions of the Maruader, Stinger, Wasp and Locust were borrowed and used for different designs in the Solaris 7 area game set, thus becoming official in US BT as well

Cyc

Wow, those look completely different from the US Battletech. I never knew that there was a Japanese Battletech until you mentioned it. How sleek and cool are those designs?

[kensei]

BT is dying if you ask me.  Classic BT anyway.

The "death" of BT has nothing to do with the removal of the Unseens.  And, btw, the Unseens were never portrayed as the "crappiest" of mechs.  Many of them were quite capable, like the Warhammer/Tomahawk, Marauder/Gulag, and others.  Only the LAMs (Land Air Mechs, BTizations of the GERWALKS) and the mech representations of the Valkyries as a whole had any suckage (IMO)...  However, the Shadowhawk (IIRC) which was the BTization of the Super VF-1S Battroid (IIRC) was the official mech of the Steiners (IIRC)...  Not too shabby.

The Clans used many "unseen" designs and used them quite extensively even if they were "Second Line" mechs.

BTW, WizKids has redesigned the "Unseens" and is now re-releasing them in a George Lucas-esq rewrite of Battletech History   (though I don't think they're re-writing history, I believe the official word is that the redesignes are new updated versions of the same old classic 'mechs.)

Vostok 7

Sorry yeah you're right. I knew that actually, but my stupid fingers started typing before my brain could register what i put down.

The Marauder series still sucked because it overheats so quickly though.

Edited August 25, 2003 by kensei

[kensei]

Microsoft plans to pursue the mechwarrior line of vid games, how close it stays to the source material is another issue. I also heard rumors that a BT movies was coming in 2005 and thats when the new mechwarrior game is also coming out.

After mechassult on x-box and mechwarrior 4 in some instances, I think Battletach is going to divert from the original significantly.

[kensei]

This is mostly hearsay from back in the day, but under the legal cloud that ensued, I doubt we'll ever get a real answer. As far I know, when Battletech was originally made and went to press the creators didn't hold any rights to the designs they used. Maybe originally thinking, "Who's gonna notice us?" or the Tommy Yune-like, "Foreign copyrights don't apply to us!" Once it became apparent that Battletech was going to reach the size where it couldn't blatently flaunt the law (ie the game gets popular + Harmony Gold releases Robotech on TV) they scrambled to aquire the rights, which led to some (rumored) deal with Revel.

Remember, this was back in the days when, in all honesty, Japanese animation was so far underground that most people would have really not noticed the designs were stolen. In a side note, the origianl battletech book I had obviously had no artist on the team (at least not one worth their salt) as the mechs were always drawn in their line-art pose (be it mirrored or however slightly adjusted). Infact, although I posses the book no longer, I remember a "picture" of a swamp battle between a line-art Macross mecha and some elementy school kid's robot arm.

Although I played it, I've always looked down on battletech for this. I mean, not so much for stealing the designs, but, if any of them were anime fans (and someone would have had to have been to get the line-art) why did they end up turning otherwise nimble mecha into slow-ass lumbering mechs? And who was the idiot that couldn't line up game stat weapons with the line art? Questions, questions...

Amen to that Brother. B)

[kensei]

Heck yeah, don't underestimate the lightweights.

There's been a few times I've been pinned down between a rock (lightweight mech) and a hard place (heavyweight mech) and managed to pull my ass out.

My usual choice is a decent Medium, but I'll take whatevers given to me in a pinch.

Vostok 7

You should try playing Mechwarrior 3 using a Daishi. Face up against fireflys in instant action, all set in Dasher variants. Out in the open, 6 of them rip you apart in no time.

[Vostok 7]

You should try playing Mechwarrior 3 using a Daishi. Face up against fireflys in instant action, all set in Dasher variants. Out in the open, 6 of them rip you apart in no time.

I know what you are saying. I've been on both sides of such a battle... All it takes is a decent player in a light mech and you can say byebye daishi/dire wolf!

Playing against AI 'mechs is nothing. Play against a real, accomplished player and you'll be singing a different story.

Vostok 7

[kensei]

I agree. Playing against AI controlled mechs ain't much fun unless they come in masses for your Dual Ultra AC-20's to chew them up. My opponents complain about my 5 AMS and excessively ducking and weaving though when I'm in the lower half of the weight range when playing on battlenet.

Edited August 25, 2003 by kensei