Space folding in Macross Frontier

[Macross007]

Few months ago, I have read Macross fans having difficulties understanding why the space folding effect in Macross Frontier was different. I'm not going to do a technological analysis regarding fold drive technology in the Macross universe but I want to explain why the new fold drive effect shown in Macross F makes more sense then what we have seen in other Macross incarnations. First, I want to point out the only thing space folding has in common in various Macross incarnations is the famous "tunnel effect". That tunnel effect is the direct result of folding space and therefore is some kind of wormhole. In SDF Macross, Macross Plus and 7, ships and valkyries are shown suddently disappearing and reappearing during "fold in" and "fold out" operations. While in Macross F valkyries and ships are shown creating some kind of "super dimension gates" or "fold gates" prior to fold in and defold operations. Since it's established that folding space is the equivalent of creating a wormhole (tunnel effect), having a gate or a portal for going through that wormhole makes more sense rather than seeing ships and valkyries disappearing and reappearing in an instant since a wormhole is noting more than a tunnel thus the tunnel effect shown in all Macross incarnations. That's why I think Macross Frontier fold drive effect is close to the real deal.

So I want your opinions regarding that matter guys.

P.S. : I know, my English is still poo.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Macross007

[JB0]

First, I want to point out the only thing space folding has in common in various Macross incarnations is the famous "tunnel effect".

If you mean what I think by "tunnel effect"(that the animation when they travel through fold space looks like they're flying through a tunnel), then that wasn't present in SDF Macross.

What folding has in common in the various series...es is faster-than-light travel.

Everything else is left vague, most likely intentionally.

It's also implied that fold space is "wrong" somehow. SDF used the wavering color separation effect to indicate fold space(except in the factory satellite theft, if I recall).

Frontier makes reference to fold sickness(maybe, sometimes), and re-invents the old visual separation effect.

Oh, and that specific fold drive failures leave behind a strange energy phenomenon that can be harnessed for the creation of a barrier system.

That tunnel effect is the direct result of folding space and therefore is some kind of wormhole.

That's a bit of a leap there.

Especially given the official description involves interdimensional travel, making it sound more like a conventional hyperspace drive.*

http://macross.anime.net/wiki/Fold

There's also the episode where they steal the factory satellite, which establishes it takes an energy expenditure to leave fold space. Wormholes are open at both ends. You need energy to create and maintain the wormhole, but not to exit it.

*Interestingly, several sci-fi stories with "conventional" hyperdrives describe a tunnel effect caused by the apparent elongation of the stars. Star Wars even illustrates it.

In SDF Macross, Macross Plus and 7, ships and valkyries are shown suddently disappearing and reappearing during "fold in" and "fold out" operations. While in Macross F valkyries and ships are shown creating some kind of "super dimension gates" or "fold gates" prior to fold in and defold operations.

SDF has a few different fold animations. Sometimes the ships slide into/out of a fold "gate" and other times they appear/vanish.

Which tells us is that there's a few different ways of folding/defolding, some of which are flashier than others.

...

Or, you know, that the animators bungled defold animations a lot and they're all supposed to be the "portal" type(assumed because the first examples are that type, and the first few episodes are of consistently decent animation{though not error-free}).

Since it's established that folding space is the equivalent of creating a wormhole (tunnel effect), having a gate or a portal for going through that wormhole makes more sense rather than seeing ships and valkyries disappearing and reappearing in an instant since a wormhole is noting more than a tunnel thus the tunnel effect shown in all Macross incarnations.

It's NOT established, but fortunately the effect makes sense anyways if you consider the "gate" to be a hole between the dimensions.

That's why I think Macross Frontier fold drive effect is close to the real deal.

So I want your opinions regarding that matter guys.

Ask and ye shall receive.

My understanding is the fold drive moves a ship into another dimension, where the laws of phsyics are different, and moves the ship back to normal space at it's destination.

[Mr March]

Space folding in Macross was never really described in any amount of detail. So if it varies from one series to the next, there's very little to debate since the "rules" were never established anyway. What was originally described about space folding doesn't say much other than to imply the whole process of space folding is really an "incidental" type of travel. The actual act of space folding appears to be a beneficial byproduct of swapping real space with super dimension space. The space craft becomes displaced as a result of the process, but the actual process itself is "dimension swapping."

Fold (at the Macross Compendium)

I think the differing depiction of space folds as using "portals" or "holes" in Macross Frontier is due more to the use of computer generated effects. The new space fold effect in Macross Frontier might also be a return to the original SDF Macross series, which showed the Alien StarShip-1 emerging from a white glowing hole in space, which the ship then penetrated to emerge shrouded in glowing white energy that eventually subsided, revealing the space craft. The subsequent re-launch and first fold of the SDF-1 Macross also appeared to create some kind of "portal" or "sphere" of energy surrounding the SDF-1 Macross. So the Macross Frontier space folds could simply be a modern re-interpretation of space folding that is actually much closer to the visual effects seen in the first SDF Macross series than what the other Macross sequels offered in between SDF Macross and Macross Frontier.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Mr March

[SchizophrenicMC]

I see it as Folding can be done through a few methods. The Zentraedi's way was the good, ole vanish. That was the method the Protoculture had developed for them.

Later, cheaper fold drives were created that used the tunnel effect. Hence their use in MF. Or, perhaps, the tunnel effect is used because it's the only way to fold very large ships.

I'm inclined to think the tunnel drive is cheaper than the vanish drive.

EDIT: Or maybe the tunnel drive uses less energy, as it could explain how the ASS-1 emerged from a tunnel with a strained, damaged reactor.

Edited June 22, 2009 by SchizophrenicMC

[Macross007]

That's a bit of a leap there.

Especially given the official description involves interdimensional travel, making it sound more like a conventional hyperspace drive.*

http://macross.anime.net/wiki/Fold

There's also the episode where they steal the factory satellite, which establishes it takes an energy expenditure to leave fold space. Wormholes are open at both ends. You need energy to create and maintain the wormhole, but not to exit it.

poo. My wormhole argument is completely destroyed.

If you mean what I think by "tunnel effect"(that the animation when they travel through fold space looks like they're flying through a tunnel), then that wasn't present in SDF Macross.

What folding has in common in the various series...es is faster-than-light travel.

Everything else is left vague, most likely intentionally.

It's also implied that fold space is "wrong" somehow. SDF used the wavering color separation effect to indicate fold space(except in the factory satellite theft, if I recall).

Frontier makes reference to fold sickness(maybe, sometimes), and re-invents the old visual separation effect.

Oh, and that specific fold drive failures leave behind a strange energy phenomenon that can be harnessed for the creation of a barrier system.

*Interestingly, several sci-fi stories with "conventional" hyperdrives describe a tunnel effect caused by the apparent elongation of the stars. Star Wars even illustrates it.

Which tells us is that there's a few different ways of folding/defolding, some of which are flashier than others.

...

Or, you know, that the animators bungled defold animations a lot and they're all supposed to be the "portal" type(assumed because the first examples are that type, and the first few episodes are of consistently decent animation{though not error-free}).

It's NOT established, but fortunately the effect makes sense anyways if you consider the "gate" to be a hole between the dimensions.

Ask and ye shall receive.

My understanding is the fold drive moves a ship into another dimension, where the laws of phsyics are different, and moves the ship back to normal space at it's destination.

I starting to understand my mistake now : I thought the "tunnel effect was some of kind of wormhole when in reality the tunnel effect was a represention of the "4th dimension" or "super dimension space". I completely screwed up on this one. But that does not change my opinion since "fold in" and "fold out" are the facts of entering and exiting super dimension space. Creating a portal or a gate to go through another dimension makes more sense to me.

SDF has a few different fold animations. Sometimes the ships slide into/out of a fold "gate" and other times they appear/vanish.

Need to rewatch SDF Macross then.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Macross007

[Einherjar]

It could represent the technological progress the U.N. Spacy has gone through between Macross TV, Mac 7, and MacF. That or just cool CG sci-fi effects, I have no problem with it.

[azrael]

I've always found the M+/M7-era interpretation of fold-in/defolding to be one I can agree with. They swap space with super dimension space, then swap that space back with real space. Kinda like Battlestar Galactica's FTL SFX. The portal/tunnel effect gives a better feel of "fold in" and when they leave, "defold"/"fold out" because they are entering and leaving SD space. That's what folding is; entering, traveling, then leaving SD space. I'm surprised they haven't used the Star Trek warp-effect yet.

[VFTF1]

I too like the "swap real space for super dimmension space" argument - mainly because of its' poetic symetry with "Super Dimmensional Fortress Macross" which was the full title of the original series - so you'd think Super Dimmensions would be...important or something.

Pete

[Zinjo]

I'm surprised they haven't used the Star Trek warp-effect yet.

Then they'd be travelling through an artificial wormhole made in real space, instead of SD space. The wormhole through SD space, would look different than streaking starts. This is most likely why SK used the animation he did in Plus and Frontier.

As for "fold faults", I tend to consider them as areas of space or SD space with dark matter deposits, which is substantially more dense than matter. Thus by travelling through them, the amount of energy needed would be more. Much like driving from a paved road through soft sand. You can get through it, but it will take a lot more gas than if you were still on a paved road.

The Fold Quartz would have to have properties that allowed them to cut through such dark matter as opposed to muscling their way through it.

Edited June 23, 2009 by Zinjo

[Keith]

I've always been under the belief that there are two methods of folding, Frontier has solidified that for me.

First: Fold Bubble/instananious type of fold. This is the type that we more often see in the original series, pretty often in 7, and off & on in later series. This type require's no motion of the object travelling through the fold, with assumedly the entire distance between two points being "folded."

The second type seen usually by the Zentradi in the original series, Guld & Isamu in Plus, Diamond Force with Sound Boosters in 7, etc, only "partially" folding the space between two points, leaving the rest of the distance to be manually traveled by the object within the fold. Previously I thought the only determining factor in this type was the stored energy of the fold enigne, & longer distance that had to be travelled, by since Frontier introduced "Fold Fault's, it makes even more sense why this method would be required. The fold fault's also account for the time dialation that Misa spoke of when she & co had been captured, pretty much tying everything up into a neat little bow.

[JB0]

As for "fold faults", I tend to consider them as areas of space or SD space with dark matter deposits, which is substantially more dense than matter. Thus by travelling through them, the amount of energy needed would be more. Much like driving from a paved road through soft sand. You can get through it, but it will take a lot more gas than if you were still on a paved road.

Technically, dark matter is denser than empty space.

It's density relative to regular matter is highly subjective, given density varies greatly.

But I actually like "faults" being related to dark matter.

Though that relies on super-dimension space being close enough to our own universe that what we do affects it.

In which case... actually, the faults could just be mass shadows. Stars, planets, nebulas...

Could also be the fold-space equivalent. Areas of denser/lighter super-dimension energy.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Technically, dark matter is denser than empty space.

It's density relative to regular matter is highly subjective, given density varies greatly.

But I actually like "faults" being related to dark matter.

Though that relies on super-dimension space being close enough to our own universe that what we do affects it.

In which case... actually, the faults could just be mass shadows. Stars, planets, nebulas...

Could also be the fold-space equivalent. Areas of denser/lighter super-dimension energy.

Which begs the question: Is there the Macross variant on the Interdictor-class Star Destroyers of Star Wars lore?

In Star Wars canon, Interdictors were ships equipped with a type of tractor beam that created a wide field of gravity, creating huge mass shadows around it. The Empire used them to stop ships mid-Hyperspace and board them.

If a fold fault is like a mass shadow...

HEAVY on the IF.

[DeeBot]

I find it interesting how much time ships spend not folding. Apparently, it's really, really energy intensive. (Although the Vajra seem to treat folding like rolling out of bed. I guess that makes sense, considering their exotic use of fold space.)

It seems odd to think of an nearly-instantaneous (assuming no fold faults) means of travel that requires you to sit on your hands for long periods of time while you're charging up for the next jump. If you were an inhabitant of a colony ship, most of your life would be spent outside of fold, but most of the distance covered would be in fold. And what's the effective velocity if you can cover a few tens of light years in a jump, but only every few weeks/months/years?

Of course, I suppose it's always possible there's a lot of short hop folding that goes on that we don't see... because fold space is boring. But it seems like the amount of work that goes into folding the whole fleet would argue against that.

Also: Where does all the energy come from, anyway? Most of space is empty. I can only assume they gather up interstellar hydrogen to use in fusion reactors. It would explain why it seems to take so darn long...

Edited June 24, 2009 by DeeBot

[Mr March]

There might be numerous factors of which we're not aware that affect fold travel. Imperfect technology. Limited human understanding. Size of the vessel to be folded. Distance traveled. Effects of fold space itself. Power limitations. I think the point the writers are making is fold technology is just as prone to disadvantages as any other piece of technology. By writing it that way, the writers not only create opportunities for drama but also make the technology feel more real.

[JB0]

And what's the effective velocity if you can cover a few tens of light years in a jump, but only every few weeks/months/years?

Still orders of magnitude faster than without fold drives. 10 lightyears a month becomes 120 lightyears a year, which is a LOT more than .75 lightyears a year.

And you don't have to worry about slowing down at the halfway point either!

[Zinjo]

Technically, dark matter is denser than empty space.

It's density relative to regular matter is highly subjective, given density varies greatly.

But I actually like "faults" being related to dark matter.

Though that relies on super-dimension space being close enough to our own universe that what we do affects it.

In which case... actually, the faults could just be mass shadows. Stars, planets, nebulas...

Could also be the fold-space equivalent. Areas of denser/lighter super-dimension energy.

Well the SD dimension is close enough to be easily (relative term) tapped, so it is entirely possible that faults could be stars, planets or nebulae from our dimension... Though for something to create such a tar pit in SD space it would have to be very large considering the distances travelled by folds.

[Zinjo]

There might be numerous factors of which we're not aware that affect fold travel. Imperfect technology. Limited human understanding. Size of the vessel to be folded. Distance traveled. Effects of fold space itself. Power limitations. I think the point the writers are making is fold technology is just as prone to disadvantages as any other piece of technology. By writing it that way, the writers not only create opportunities for drama but also make the technology feel more real.

True.

I foster the notion that the ancient Zentradi ships of SDFM were largely as they were designed by the PC, thus were not as prone to fold faults. Then mankind comes along and says "Hey, if we toss out these useless purple crystals in the fold drives we can do this..."

Then all of a sudden fold travel becomes limited by fold faults and no one knows why.

I also tend to believe the Zentradi gunships were/are much more powerful than humanity's cannons due to the fact that they are still the original PC design, whereas all cannons built by mankind were reverse engineered for the most part. For all we know fold quarts may also improve the efficiency of the power output of Macross cannons...

Edited June 24, 2009 by Zinjo

[josue]

True.

I foster the notion that the ancient Zentradi ships of SDFM were largely as they were designed by the PC, thus were not as prone to fold faults. Then mankind comes along and says "Hey, if we toss out these useless purple crystals in the fold drives we can do this..."

Then all of a sudden fold travel becomes limited by fold faults and no one knows why.

I also tend to believe the Zentradi gunships were/are much more powerful than humanity's cannons due to the fact that they are still the original PC design, whereas all cannons built by mankind were reverse engineered for the most part. For all we know fold quarts may also improve the efficiency of the power output of Macross cannons...

We do see in ep... 6? 7? the explanation about the "fold faults" and they say that those faults where the barrier to ALL Protoculture derived cultures or races. And the thing with the purple crystals make possible to fold through the faults without losing energy thus making fold travel faster.

[JB0]

Well the SD dimension is close enough to be easily (relative term) tapped, so it is entirely possible that faults could be stars, planets or nebulae from our dimension... Though for something to create such a tar pit in SD space it would have to be very large considering the distances travelled by folds.

Depending on the interaction between the universes, it could be something relatively trivial on our side.

Or even beneficial, like interstellar hydrogen.

[Bri]

True.

I foster the notion that the ancient Zentradi ships of SDFM were largely as they were designed by the PC, thus were not as prone to fold faults. Then mankind comes along and says "Hey, if we toss out these useless purple crystals in the fold drives we can do this..."

Then all of a sudden fold travel becomes limited by fold faults and no one knows why.

I also tend to believe the Zentradi gunships were/are much more powerful than humanity's cannons due to the fact that they are still the original PC design, whereas all cannons built by mankind were reverse engineered for the most part. For all we know fold quarts may also improve the efficiency of the power output of Macross cannons...

Still, in fleet of the strongest women: M7 gets the order to destroy Chloe's Meltran fleet (of 60.000 ships) with the Battle 7. If a single macross vessel can take out such a large force then the cannon desing has improved a lot since SDFM. A Macross vessel would then more likely carry the firepower of the Grand Cannon. Haven't seen any similar weapon in the Zentradi arsenal (except the main cannon of Bodolza's ship in DYRL).

I would guess that human technology goes beyond Zentran levels after SW1. Zentran tech is reliable but development has been stagnant since the PC days. So that could work not only for weapons but propulsion as well.

Story wise it would deal with the issue of other Zentran fleets, humanity must have encountered others by the time of Frontier. With increased weapon technology those fleets would be much less of a threat.

Come to think of it, Global warns in the final episode of of SDFM that when earth reaches the level of military power needed to defend against a hostile Zentran or Supervision army fleet earth might make the same mistakes like the PC. And voila in Frontier, human forces turn out to be the agressors against the Varija and are almost enslaved by Grace, humanities own creation. Glovals prediction holds, the circle is complete.

Edited June 24, 2009 by Bri

[Mr March]

True.

I foster the notion that the ancient Zentradi ships of SDFM were largely as they were designed by the PC, thus were not as prone to fold faults. Then mankind comes along and says "Hey, if we toss out these useless purple crystals in the fold drives we can do this..."

Then all of a sudden fold travel becomes limited by fold faults and no one knows why.

I also tend to believe the Zentradi gunships were/are much more powerful than humanity's cannons due to the fact that they are still the original PC design, whereas all cannons built by mankind were reverse engineered for the most part. For all we know fold quarts may also improve the efficiency of the power output of Macross cannons...

I believe josue's reply pretty much mirrors my own interpretation of the Protoculture fold technology in regards to fold faults. However, I do agree that humanities limited understanding (or perhaps "infancy" is more accurate) of OverTechnology may play a larger part in why certain things happen in fold travel. Apparently, accidents in fold travel do happen, at least with enough frequency and public awareness that the New U.N. Government could use a "fold error" as a believable excuse to cover up the Vajra attack upon the 117th Research Fleet.

Still, in fleet of the strongest women: M7 gets the order to destroy Chloe's Meltran fleet (of 60.000 ships) with the Battle 7. If a single macross vessel can take out such a large force then the cannon desing has improved a lot since SDFM. A Macross vessel would then more likely carry the firepower of the Grand Cannon. Haven't seen any similar weapon in the Zentradi arsenal (except the main cannon of Bodolza's ship in DYRL).

I would guess that human technology goes beyond Zentran levels after SW1. Zentran tech is reliable but development has been stagnant since the PC days. So that could work not only for weapons but propulsion as well.

Chlore's fleet was actually about 97,000 warships strong, thanks to new information about the numbers of the Macross 7 fleet published in the Macross Chronicle. I think destroying the Meltran fleet required use of reaction weapons and could not be achieved by the Battle 7's main gun alone. Especially since we've seen the Battle 7 main gun in action prior to this and it cannot even destroy 18 warships in close formation with one shot let alone 97,000 warships (reference: destroyed one-third of Gigile Fleet of 18 Varauta warships; Macross 7, Episode 16)

The Macross Chronicle does says that the Factory Satellites possess the capability for "weapon improvements" over time. While Zentradi technology may INITIALLY be standing still in comparison to the technological advancement/potential of the U.N. Forces, it is implied that some advancement in technology occurred pre-Space WarI. Post-Space War I, it's clear the Zentradi technology is advancing as fast, if not faster, than human OverTechnology.

[Bri]

[...]

Post-Space War I, it's clear the Zentradi technology is advancing as fast, if not faster, than human OverTechnology.

Ah yes, reaction weapons would explain the disregard for the threat of other Zentran fleets. The emphasis on the shot by the Battle 7 was a bit odd in that regard.

I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing concerning Zentran tech. The Zentradi that are not part of the UN forces do not seem to progress technology wise as far as I can tell. Cloe's forces in 2046 seemed to use the same equipment as the Zentradi/Meltradi from the SW1 war.

Edited June 24, 2009 by Bri

[Mr March]

Oh yeah, we should definitely make a distinction. I was referring to the U.N. Zentradi and their tech level maintaining pace with the humans. They have their own versions of all the same tech (Northampton Class, VF-14 Vampire, New Macross Class, etc) including other technology like micloning/macloning chambers (aboard Island 1 and what not).

The non-UN Zentradi/Meltrandi fleets will obviously fall behind in the tech race. Or perhaps it's more correct to say they will fall behind eventually. However, even by 2059, it's clear non-U.N. Zentradi weaponry is still dangerous against even the Vajra (see Alto vs. the Red Vajra using the Zentran cannon) and is obviously not so far behind that mecha can't still be field effective units (like Klan Klang's Queadluun-Rea units). However again, the Factory Satellite entry in the Macross Chronicle implies that the Zentradi/Meltrandi weapons are improved over time. The weapons might look the same, but they are "improved", which probably means the Factory Satellite increases the effectiveness/efficiency/capability of the Zentradi weapons over time.

Edited June 24, 2009 by Mr March

[SchizophrenicMC]

That reactor note got me thinking.

And I thought and I thought and it dawned on me: the reactors work by taking energy from the super dimension, hence the SD Energy weapons, SD Fold drives, and all the other Super Dimension tecnology. A Vajra works the same way.

This means they don't need a finite fuel source. They can use a drive jump started on Earth to harvest SD energy and run indefinitely.

However, fold drive charging was a doozy, but I came up with an explanation for that, as well. The reactors can only handle so much energy, and a fold requires so much more, so they did what we've done since the means were invented: They made use of capacitors. And they used the reactor to harvest energy and store it in said capacitors. They would charge until a suitable amount was stored, and they'd release it all at once to operate the fold drive or the Macross Cannon or whatever they'd need for an energy burst.

[dreamweaver13]

True.

I foster the notion that the ancient Zentradi ships of SDFM were largely as they were designed by the PC, thus were not as prone to fold faults. Then mankind comes along and says "Hey, if we toss out these useless purple crystals in the fold drives we can do this..."

Then all of a sudden fold travel becomes limited by fold faults and no one knows why.

I also tend to believe the Zentradi gunships were/are much more powerful than humanity's cannons due to the fact that they are still the original PC design, whereas all cannons built by mankind were reverse engineered for the most part. For all we know fold quarts may also improve the efficiency of the power output of Macross cannons...

I'm not sure that the zentraedi ships were not prone to fold faults. sure, the concept of "fold faults" was not yet touched upon before Frontier, but there are some indications in the previous series that there are limitations to zentraedi fold technology. i particularly remember SDFM episode "Viva Maria", where it took britai's ship several folds to arrive at the factory sattellite, and i think severals fold as well to get back to earth. while it was not explained why several folds were necessary, it can be hypothesized (retroactively) that it was due to several fold faults along the way.

also there's the question of why it took britai's fleet so long to discover the final destination of ASS-1. maybe it's because the fold trail of ASS-1 went through several fold faults, that it took britai quite a while to trace it.

[SchizophrenicMC]

I'm not sure that the zentraedi ships were not prone to fold faults. sure, the concept of "fold faults" was not yet touched upon before Frontier, but there are some indications in the previous series that there are limitations to zentraedi fold technology. i particularly remember SDFM episode "Viva Maria", where it took britai's ship several folds to arrive at the factory sattellite, and i think severals fold as well to get back to earth. while it was not explained why several folds were necessary, it can be hypothesized (retroactively) that it was due to several fold faults along the way.

also there's the question of why it took britai's fleet so long to discover the final destination of ASS-1. maybe it's because the fold trail of ASS-1 went through several fold faults, that it took britai quite a while to trace it.

Further strengthening the fold fault theory...

All makes sense.

[Mr March]

I'm not sure that the zentraedi ships were not prone to fold faults. sure, the concept of "fold faults" was not yet touched upon before Frontier, but there are some indications in the previous series that there are limitations to zentraedi fold technology. i particularly remember SDFM episode "Viva Maria", where it took britai's ship several folds to arrive at the factory sattellite, and i think severals fold as well to get back to earth. while it was not explained why several folds were necessary, it can be hypothesized (retroactively) that it was due to several fold faults along the way.

also there's the question of why it took britai's fleet so long to discover the final destination of ASS-1. maybe it's because the fold trail of ASS-1 went through several fold faults, that it took britai quite a while to trace it.

Not a bad theory. Well thought out!

[hobbes221]

I said once before that the two ways shown, fold in/out and the 'gate' opening way could be described by saying that you can go through a locked door one of two ways. One, go up and put your boot to the door or two, go and unlocked the door, open and walk in. Which works faster? number one (if you do it right and don't break your foot) which is better for the door, frame and takes less energy, but more time - two.

So maybe both ways can be used by the right type of Fold engine, the Frontier style used for most of the time but still keeping the fold out way for an 'aww poop' moment ( and yes I really did type 'aww poop' - think Sealab, happy cake oven, and french accent )

I know this is a really simple way to look at it, and if anyone has said anything along the same lines (in a much better and smarter way), sorry not trying to steal your ideas or anything.

Oh well that is just my way of thinking as for why it's shown differently in the series. Advances don't have to mean that the old way can't be used at all, there is just a time to use one way and a time for the other.

Edited June 27, 2009 by hobbes221

[SchizophrenicMC]

I said once before that the two ways shown, fold in/out and the 'gate' opening way could be described by saying that you can go through a locked door one of two ways. One, go up and put your boot to the door or two, go and unlocked the door, open and walk in. Which works faster? number one (if you do it right and don't break your foot) which is better for the door, frame and takes less energy, but more time - two.

So maybe both ways can be used by the right type of Fold engine, the Frontier style used for most of the time but still keeping the fold out way for an 'aww poop' moment ( and yes I really did type 'aww poop' - think Sealab, happy cake oven, and french accent )

I know this is a really simple way to look at it, and if anyone has said anything along the same lines (in a much better and smarter way), sorry not trying to steal your ideas or anything.

Oh well that is just my way of thinking as for why it's shown differently in the series. Advances don't have to mean that the old way can't be used at all, there is just a time to use one way and a time for the other.

Yeah, Hobbes, that was my theory.

One drive does the SDFM fold, one does the Frontier fold, one is cheaper and/or more efficient, one is... Not?

[hobbes221]

Yeah, Hobbes, that was my theory.

One drive does the SDFM fold, one does the Frontier fold, one is cheaper and/or more efficient, one is... Not?

Many people here have had theories along this line. I repeated my post from months ago just to kick in the analogy I was using, mostly because I remembered the big talks we had back when Frontier first showed the new style fold animations as to if this was a new tech, recon or whatever, I was just stating my view not trying to say 'here's something new'. - that's why I put the little disclaimer in my post.

Just kinda skimmed the thread as I don't have much time as of late to hang out online.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Many people here have had theories along this line. I repeated my post from months ago just to kick in the analogy I was using, mostly because I remembered the big talks we had back when Frontier first showed the new style fold animations as to if this was a new tech, recon or whatever, I was just stating my view not trying to say 'here's something new'. - that's why I put the little disclaimer in my post.

Just kinda skimmed the thread as I don't have much time as of late to hang out online.

And I was just pointing out that I'm the one who said it here.

It is a pretty good theory, though.

[Vile]

Also: Where does all the energy come from, anyway? Most of space is empty. I can only assume they gather up interstellar hydrogen to use in fusion reactors. It would explain why it seems to take so darn long...

IMMU* it just takes them that long for their superbly powerful fusion reactors to recharge their stonking great capacitors for the next fold. And they've all got really cool photovoltaics which are insanely efficient and just paint right onto your hull!

*IMMU = In My Macross Universe

[SchizophrenicMC]

IMMU* it just takes them that long for their superbly powerful fusion reactors to recharge their stonking great capacitors for the next fold. And they've all got really cool photovoltaics which are insanely efficient and just paint right onto your hull!

*IMMU = In My Macross Universe

The way I see it, the reactors don't use any normal fuel, per se. As I stated before, they harvest Super-Dimension energy. To fold, they have to charge a capacitor full of energy to release all at once to rip a hole between the dimensions or what have you. The same goes for a Macross cannon. The reason they take so long between folds is, well, it's inconvenient. They can charge a fold in a few hours at their fastest, but to do that requires all secondary systems shut down, and all reactor power going to the fold capacitors. This puts a severe cramp on lifestyle, though, so they passively charge the capacitors over the space of weeks, months, years. That way, other systems within the ship can run. This is especially good for the ultra-long distance colony ships, like Frontier. This way, they can let people live their normal lives and charge a fold to get them closer to their destination at the same time. I mean, they have all the time in the world. These colonies are self-sustaining, and I'm sure population control is part of life, so they wouldn't have to worry about strained resources.

[RedWolf]

I believe due to the 117th Fleet's study of the Vajra there was better understanding of Fold Space. Becoming aware also of the existence of Fold faults.

Current folding methods may be emulating natural folding techniques of Fold capable creatures like Space Whales and Vajra.

For a fraction of a second it seemed Space Whales portal folded.

[Omegablue]

I'm on the theory that space is an endless sheet of paper. And the fold terminology derived from the theory of pinpointing one area on the sheet, and another somewhere else on the sheet, and then warping or "Folding" the sheet so the two points meet, and a doorway is formed when they connect. So in concept, the traveling or movement effect is not the distance between the two points on the unfolded sheet of space, but instead the transfer of matter between "folded" space.

Light speed can also be viewed like this, though maybe instead of folding it's space compressing like sponge in velocity.