Thoughts on the SDFM aftermath episodes

[VFTF1]

haha true,hikaru was too oblivious to everything misa threw at him, not to mention the time she waited for him ALL DAY at that cafe while he had a trip to see minmay,and the envelope of photos she gave him,i mean how much do you need??

Well - I think DYRL gives us the answer You need to sleep with the guy It was the same for me with my girlfriend, who, like DYRL Misa, figured this out pretty quickly. Lo and behold, Hikaru upon returning to the Macross and being confronted by Minmey didn't really need much time to consider who he loves.

The reasons is simple: if you option is between:

A) Beautiful girl who never puts out but keeps cnfusing you, changing moods, getting pissed at you for forgetting her birthday present, hitting on your subordinates rather than congratulating you for your promotion, telling everyone and their grandmother that you're just a friend but then announcing to the universe that she'd be jealous if her hippie cousin had a girlfriend, and always always making you feel inadequate

OR

B) Beutiful older woman who waits for you all day, brings you an envelope of sexy pictures starring her and Shammy, tells you how tough you are and how she'd be a gonner without you, willingly dreams of doing the dishes and making you dinner, waits for you at home while you go out to do whatever you want and then has sex with you.

It's really NOT a hard decision

SDFM TV is just drawn out because Misa takes longer to finally sleep with Hikaru Thankfully - DYRL gives us the sweet and short version

Pete

[Bri]

Hikaru is an very interesting male lead character. An idealist, more introvert and thoughtfull then most mecha shows lead males. I would disagree with the notion he is dense or stupid but he does apear to be singular in focus, absent minded and somewhat clumsy. After episode 27 Misa has become a close friend but there is no real romance yet. Misa's attentions are mainly ignored or even found irritating by Hikaru regardless of the encouragments by mutual friends.

Seeing Minmay in the aftermath and her breakup with Kaifun actually starts of mutual romantic feelings for both of them. However Minmay loses Hikaru when she tells him that to be together they both have to give up the work that defines them. Personally I think the moment Hikaru's heart changes is when Misa tells him that she is taking command of the Megaroad, in an attempt to spread culture and protect humanity. This shows that she is a kindred spirit and has a similar motivation to be in the military to protect people, just like him. Followed by a delacration of love. I'm sure that irrisistable to a personality like Hikaru's. Misa could have won him over much earlier but she went at it the wrong way. She tried to show her affection to Hikaru by being helpfull around his place and showering him with attention. Misa did not learn the lesson Claudia taught her in "Rainy night" till the last episode. Roy made the same mistake trying to win Claudia over with presents. He failed untill he showed her his true motivations and what makes him tick on the rainy night before a test flight.

There are some hints the writers put in to show Hikaru is pretty indifferent in regard to social graces, like him forgetting to offer Misa a drink when he is attention was on the picture of her and Riber. His lack of politeness in adressing superior officers etc.

Edited June 20, 2009 by Bri

[Gubaba]

...but if you`re arguing with me for a minute that there is more good hip hop now than in the late `80s/early `90s you can get lost right now.

You're changing your argument. Here's what you said before:

Unfortunately everything great has been and gone. All good hip hop was done in the `80s and `90s, all good punk in the `70s and `80s and all good mecha anime was done in the `80s.

Which is an indefensible position. Anyway, the point is moot since mickeyg explained what he meant. No one was agreeing with your interpretation of his offhand comment; rather people were arguing with you for saying that "everything great has been and gone."

And since you're backing away from that original hardline position, then no one is arguing at all anymore. We all agree. Yippee!

Let's move on:

Well - I think DYRL gives us the answer You need to sleep with the guy It was the same for me with my girlfriend, who, like DYRL Misa, figured this out pretty quickly. Lo and behold, Hikaru upon returning to the Macross and being confronted by Minmey didn't really need much time to consider who he loves.

The reasons is simple: if you option is between:

A) Beautiful girl who never puts out but keeps cnfusing you, changing moods, getting pissed at you for forgetting her birthday present, hitting on your subordinates rather than congratulating you for your promotion, telling everyone and their grandmother that you're just a friend but then announcing to the universe that she'd be jealous if her hippie cousin had a girlfriend, and always always making you feel inadequate

OR

B) Beutiful older woman who waits for you all day, brings you an envelope of sexy pictures starring her and Shammy, tells you how tough you are and how she'd be a gonner without you, willingly dreams of doing the dishes and making you dinner, waits for you at home while you go out to do whatever you want and then has sex with you.

It's really NOT a hard decision

SDFM TV is just drawn out because Misa takes longer to finally sleep with Hikaru Thankfully - DYRL gives us the sweet and short version

Pete

So, you don't think Minmay slept with Hikaru when they were shacking up at Christmastime...?

I dunno. I kind of agree that Hikaru is hard to read, especially in the last episodes. As I said before, dreamweaver gave him a nice way out, but I still think the love story wasn't handled as well as it could have been in the last part of the story.

He really DOES act like an idiot, but not in a way I find comprehensible. I kind of feel the same way about Alto, though, especially after the episode 15 song battle.

EDIT: Whoops! Left out the all-important "not."

Edited June 20, 2009 by Gubaba

[VFTF1]

So, you don't think Minmay slept with Hikaru when they were shacking up at Christmastime...?

Nope. Because when Minmay woke up - Hikaru was sleeping on the couch. How does that work? They had sex and then Minmay said "and now go away to the couch because I don't want you taking up the entire bed?"

I guess it's possible - but most girls like to cuddle up. Why wouldn't she?

I am more inclined to think that Misa and Hikaru were sleeping together when she was living with him, doing his laundry and all that.

But I think the only way to answer these pressing questions is to get someone versed in Japanese social more of the early 1980s.

There are usually certain signs that we recognize to signify that two people are having sex - aside from the blatantly obvious times when the media in question explicitly SHOWS this to occur.

Then again - I now start thinking about Shinji and his thoughts concerning Misato. We the audience SEE Misato...well, ok - HEAR Misato having sex one time. However, Shinji rightfully points out that she probably does it ALL the time - or at least when she's not home/not around him.

And yet other than being generally hot, nothing about her really demonstrates her sex life - she doesn't brag about it, she's not on the phone all the time with her boyfriend, she doesn't inquire whether he'll like something that she was thinking of wearing...

In Macross we also get some signs of sympathy but nothing explicit...

Then again - we don't see Roy having sex with Claudia either but it would be pretty hard to make the case that it's otherwise.

I guess it DOES make the love triangle all the more exciting and dramatic if we accept that Misa and Hikaru made love at some point and began a sexual relationship and the same goes for Minmey and Hikaru.

But it is very difficult to figure out when what happened- we're always left guessing.

Clearly when Misa overheard that Hikaru was going to let Minmay stay with him - her reaction left little doubt that she believed Hikaru would sleep with Minmey.

But did he? Would he have at that point?

I dunno - DYRL makes life a lot easier I think because it is more explicit in suggesting levels of physical attachment. Minmey gives Hikaru a nude shower dance and a kiss. That's great, but it just can't compete with having sex with him after visibly demonstrating her love of washing dishes and making dinner (even if it was just pretend) which is what Misa does.

Although somebody can argue that Misa doesn't - but I just don't believe it. The scene closes with them kissing/embracing passionately and the next day they both come stumbling out of the same home and Misa is still putting her clothes on - well - zipping up her jacket - something that the otherwise rigorous sour puss might have been too embarassed to do with Hikaru around. Oh - and when they see the Macross they embrace eachother...

Yeah - you could argue that they kissed and went to bed seperately and that in the morning all Misa was doing was zipping her jacket and that the embrace was a "we're saved" relief embrace... but...

What we need is a re-telling of Macross with more explicit sex scenes.

Otherwise this problem will never figure itself out...

Pete

[dreamweaver13]

You're changing your argument. Here's what you said before:

So, you don't think Minmay slept with Hikaru when they were shacking up at Christmastime...?

I dunno. I kind of agree that Hikaru is hard to read, especially in the last episodes. As I said before, dreamweaver gave him a nice way out, but I still think the love story wasn't handled as well as it could have been in the last part of the story.

He really DOES act like an idiot, but not in a way I find comprehensible. I kind of feel the same way about Alto, though, especially after the episode 15 song battle.

EDIT: Whoops! Left out the all-important "not."

Calling Hikaru dense... hey, you'll brook no argument from me there. he's as dense as they come. but to call him an idiot and incomprehensible? i wouldn't. because, if i did, i'd be as soon calling myself one.

this has happened to me before. i will befriend a girl, and we'd be very very close. but sometimes, i just don't see anything else. when you get to be good friends, even signs of affection, such as holding hands, walking late nights, or sharing feelings, can come across as BFF stuff. think harry met sally, before they became mr and mrs harry and sally.

it won't be later on until someone else (usually a common friend) points out to me that it's soooo obvious that she has feelings for me. And once it's been said, i look back, and every behavior has a different color to it. I see that the common friend is telling the truth, and i berate myself for not seeing it early on. for being hikaru-dense.

but why don't i see it before? well, if you don't have feelings for the girl from the start, i guess you tend to overlook things. or, even if your subconscious recognizes the signs, your mind denies these signs, because part of you is not ready to reciprocate. until someone confronts you with it head on, your mind can justify your refusal to acknowledge the possibility. or until you also begin to fall for her, and then you begin to analyse her behavior towards you. This is especially true if the guy is in love with someone else, which is the case with hikaru.

it's all about color. sometimes we guys see it, sometimes we dismiss it. the generic term for it is being dense. me? i'd call it a defense mechanism.

I'm not saying this is certainly why hikaru behaved that way. it's just a theory. he could also very well be a first-class idiot (his behavior in Private Time sure adds weight to that argument). of course, we can claim "how can any sane man possibly NOT fall in love at first sight with a girl as wonderful as misa". well... you can't teach the heart to feel what it feels. either the feelings are there from the start, or they aren't. we as viewers have the benefit of looking from outside the situation, but hikaru was the character in that situation, and from that perspective, he could be blind as a bat to misa's wonderful attributes -- at the start, of course.

p.s. as for alto... i think the two girls were blatantly obvious in episode 15, that there's no way for any rational mind to deny it, defense mechanism or no. In that sense, i too found alto's behavior incomprehensible.

Edited June 20, 2009 by dreamweaver13

[dreamweaver13]

Nope. Because when Minmay woke up - Hikaru was sleeping on the couch. How does that work? They had sex and then Minmay said "and now go away to the couch because I don't want you taking up the entire bed?"

I guess it's possible - but most girls like to cuddle up. Why wouldn't she?

I am more inclined to think that Misa and Hikaru were sleeping together when she was living with him, doing his laundry and all that.

But I think the only way to answer these pressing questions is to get someone versed in Japanese social more of the early 1980s.

There are usually certain signs that we recognize to signify that two people are having sex - aside from the blatantly obvious times when the media in question explicitly SHOWS this to occur.

the scene where hikaru sleeps on the couch was before the christmas kiss. if hikarfu and minmay did sleep together, the prevailing theory is that they so after the christmas dinner kiss (at the very end of the episode). After that, we never got any indication who sleeps where anymore.

i never thought that hikaru and misa were shagging during the 2 year interval. their behavior towards each other all throughout the aftermath episodes doesn't give me that vibe. but maybe that's just me.

[VFTF1]

Well then I guess I'm just Kakizake-dense and not Hikaru-dense then; since my experience has been either:

a) Girl has no interest in me whatsoever and thinks I'm wierd (no interest meaning neither "just friends" or more)

b) Girl falls in love with me immediately and we're a couple and everything is fine - or not - but definitely only romantic friendships/love rather than "non-romantic" friendships.

I honest to gosh never had a girl who was just a friend and not a girlfriend Heck, I couldn't even get along with my ex-girlfriend's (real ex-girlfriend, not my current girlfriend who dumps me 2 times a month and becomes "x" for the 24 hours she usually needs to come running back) friends who were girls...

Most women think I'm a chauvinist who's only interested in sex and chinese food.

Thus my affinity for Kakizake I guess...

Pete

[Bri]

the scene where hikaru sleeps on the couch was before the christmas kiss. if hikarfu and minmay did sleep together, the prevailing theory is that they so after the christmas dinner kiss (at the very end of the episode). After that, we never got any indication who sleeps where anymore.

i never thought that hikaru and misa were shagging during the 2 year interval. their behavior towards each other all throughout the aftermath episodes doesn't give me that vibe. but maybe that's just me.

Even if they slept together during that night it is not really relevant for the three way dialog the day after. Basically at that point Hikaru changes his heart, or announces it. I'm pretty convinced it's a decision on the spot based on what Minmay and Misa both said.

[VFTF1]

the scene where hikaru sleeps on the couch was before the christmas kiss. if hikarfu and minmay did sleep together, the prevailing theory is that they so after the christmas dinner kiss (at the very end of the episode). After that, we never got any indication who sleeps where anymore.

Ah yes. That episode. I'm sure I tried to forget that on purpose...

Well - that would be really strange for Minmey to sleep with Hikaru but Hikaru still chooses Demon Woman who never once slept with him and only gave him grief...

But then again -maybe Minmey sleeps with everybody, while just one kiss from Misa is very romantic and enough to melt a guy's heart?

Also - since we're on this subject... Bri explained very well why Hikaru loved Misa - but why did Misa fall in love with Hikaru?

If anything, I would have expected her to fall for a guy like Global?

The only thing that comes to mind is that she found Hikaru highly sexually attractive. I mean - let's not argue that it was due to his heroic or noble character. There were plenty of heroic and noble guys on the Macross and amongst the military and pilots and what not.

Misa picked Hikaru - well - her emotions "picked" him because of the hair and because of his flamboyant temper. Obviously Hikaru ALSO had to be noble and heroic - but given the situation lots of other guys were too. But not all the guys had Hikaru's temper and hair.

I think Hikaru's wild temper reminded Misa of her stern dad. Her dad probably didn't get all emotional when he got angry, but he did fly off the handle in his own special rigid way. Hikaru is equally rigid, albeit due to his youth his rigidity usually means he flies off the handle and bad mouths his superiors. Admiral Hayese didn't need to bad mouth superiors since in most cases he WAS the superior - so he could just give orders which veiled his temper.

And then there's the hair and general boyish good looks.

Misa just likes boys I guess

Pete

[Gubaba]

What we need is a re-telling of Macross with more explicit sex scenes.

You just made the thirteen-year-old boy who still lives inside me very, very happy. He thinks it's a great idea, and he's thinking about writing a letter to some Japanese animation company to ask them to do it.

But yeah, the whole "Minmay's wearing Hikaru's shirt but Hikaru's sleeping on the couch" is rather confusing. I think Hikaru, being a gentleman, wouldn't pressure Minmay into anything she didn't feel ready for.

So I don't think it happened that night, but I do think it happened, primarily because Christmas in Japan is considered a holiday for couples, and woe to the person who doesn't have a sex partner on Christmas Eve...

Calling Hikaru dense... hey, you'll brook no argument from me there. he's as dense as they come. but to call him an idiot and incomprehensible? i wouldn't. because, if i did, i'd be as soon calling myself one.

this has happened to me before. i will befriend a girl, and we'd be very very close. but sometimes, i just don't see anything else. when you get to be good friends, even signs of affection, such as holding hands, walking late nights, or sharing feelings, can come across as BFF stuff. think harry met sally, before they became mr and mrs harry and sally.

it won't be later on until someone else (usually a common friend) points out to me that it's soooo obvious that she has feelings for me. And once it's been said, i look back, and every behavior has a different color to it. I see that the common friend is telling the truth, and i berate myself for not seeing it early on. for being hikaru-dense.

but why don't i see it before? well, if you don't have feelings for the girl from the start, i guess you tend to overlook things. or, even if your subconscious recognizes the signs, your mind denies these signs, because part of you is not ready to reciprocate. until someone confronts you with it head on, your mind can justify your refusal to acknowledge the possibility. or until you also begin to fall for her, and then you begin to analyse her behavior towards you. This is especially true if the guy is in love with someone else, which is the case with hikaru.

it's all about color. sometimes we guys see it, sometimes we dismiss it. the generic term for it is being dense. me? i'd call it a defense mechanism.

I'm not saying this is certainly why hikaru behaved that way. it's just a theory. and of course, we claim "how can any sane man possibly NOT fall in love at first sight with a girl as wonderful as misa". well... you can't teach the heart to feel what it feels. either the feelings are there from the start, or they aren't. we as viewers have the benefit of looking from outside the situation, but hikaru was the character in that situation, and from that perspective, he could be blind as a bat to misa's wonderful attributes -- at the start, of course.

Good points, and I stand corrected.

As you suggest, I think one of the problems is the character design. As Ginrai and VF5SS pointed out on Destroy All Podcasts, Mikimoto seems to be incapable of drawing an unattractive woman. A shrewish as she may be, Misa is still lovely enough that she should have no problem getting any guy's attention. But I'm guessing she gives off strong "f*ck off" vibes. One of my friends did that for a long time, and although she was 21, there was something kind of forty-ish about her. We can't really SEE it in the show, but I bet it's there.

[dreamweaver13]

Well then I guess I'm just Kakizake-dense and not Hikaru-dense then; since my experience has been either:

a) Girl has no interest in me whatsoever and thinks I'm wierd (no interest meaning neither "just friends" or more)

b) Girl falls in love with me immediately and we're a couple and everything is fine - or not - but definitely only romantic friendships/love rather than "non-romantic" friendships.

I honest to gosh never had a girl who was just a friend and not a girlfriend Heck, I couldn't even get along with my ex-girlfriend's (real ex-girlfriend, not my current girlfriend who dumps me 2 times a month and becomes "x" for the 24 hours she usually needs to come running back) friends who were girls...

Most women think I'm a chauvinist who's only interested in sex and chinese food.

Thus my affinity for Kakizake I guess...

Pete

kakizaki? man, you're being too harsh on yourself!

Kakizaki-dense = Minmay freaks out and steps back when he aggresively tries to greet her on her birthday, and he doesn't know why?

Kakizaki-dense = Misa decided that she would much rather kiss someone else rather than him, and he wonders "i wonder what's going on?"

can't we just call you "max"-esque? he, too, doesn't have a girl who's just a friend. he's kind of a one track-minded guy, in that sense. "hey, if i'm dating you, i'm loving you, babe."

[dreamweaver13]

Also - since we're on this subject... Bri explained very well why Hikaru loved Misa - but why did Misa fall in love with Hikaru?

If anything, I would have expected her to fall for a guy like Global?

The only thing that comes to mind is that she found Hikaru highly sexually attractive. I mean - let's not argue that it was due to his heroic or noble character. There were plenty of heroic and noble guys on the Macross and amongst the military and pilots and what not.

Misa picked Hikaru - well - her emotions "picked" him because of the hair and because of his flamboyant temper. Obviously Hikaru ALSO had to be noble and heroic - but given the situation lots of other guys were too. But not all the guys had Hikaru's temper and hair.

I think Hikaru's wild temper reminded Misa of her stern dad. Her dad probably didn't get all emotional when he got angry, but he did fly off the handle in his own special rigid way. Hikaru is equally rigid, albeit due to his youth his rigidity usually means he flies off the handle and bad mouths his superiors. Admiral Hayese didn't need to bad mouth superiors since in most cases he WAS the superior - so he could just give orders which veiled his temper.

And then there's the hair and general boyish good looks.

Misa just likes boys I guess

Pete

I have a theory. maybe misa finally found someone who's not intimidated by her. (for big-shot career women who tend to intimidate men, finding someone who isn't is usually a plus, isn't it?) and we all know how hikaru is never intimidated by her.

[Bri]

-why did Misa fall in love with Hikaru?

If anything, I would have expected her to fall for a guy like Global?

The only thing that comes to mind is that she found Hikaru highly sexually attractive. I mean - let's not argue that it was due to his heroic or noble character. There were plenty of heroic and noble guys on the Macross and amongst the military and pilots and what not.

Misa picked Hikaru - well - her emotions "picked" him because of the hair and because of his flamboyant temper. Obviously Hikaru ALSO had to be noble and heroic - but given the situation lots of other guys were too. But not all the guys had Hikaru's temper and hair.

I think Hikaru's wild temper reminded Misa of her stern dad. Her dad probably didn't get all emotional when he got angry, but he did fly off the handle in his own special rigid way. Hikaru is equally rigid, albeit due to his youth his rigidity usually means he flies off the handle and bad mouths his superiors. Admiral Hayese didn't need to bad mouth superiors since in most cases he WAS the superior - so he could just give orders which veiled his temper.

And then there's the hair and general boyish good looks.

Misa just likes boys I guess

Pete

heh, I fully agree here. The only two guys who dared to challenge Misa's authority are Roy and Hikaru. Roy is spoken for so that leaves Hikaru. I guess she falls for guys who are not afraid of her. Global is more like misa surogate mother (scary thought).

There is a word play in my language where, by changing a consonant, the word spouse changes to sparing-partner. We use it to define certain types of relationships, which seems very fitting here.

I think there was an episode where Global (altough I am fearing RT brainwashing here) was reminising about the old days where Misa's father served with Global and disregarded orders. So that would definitly support the he's -just-like-daddy theory

Edited June 20, 2009 by Bri

[dreamweaver13]

As you suggest, I think one of the problems is the character design. As Ginrai and VF5SS pointed out on Destroy All Podcasts, Mikimoto seems to be incapable of drawing an unattractive woman. A shrewish as she may be, Misa is still lovely enough that she should have no problem getting any guy's attention. But I'm guessing she gives off strong "f*ck off" vibes. One of my friends did that for a long time, and although she was 21, there was something kind of forty-ish about her. We can't really SEE it in the show, but I bet it's there.

Haha. yeah, that could very well be it! maybe this is why hikaru called her oba-san the first time she met her. being all professional and strict, she could have given off that old-woman f**k-off vibe. unfortunately (or fortunately!), that was never translated into the animation design.

[Gubaba]

Ah yes. That episode. I'm sure I tried to forget that on purpose...

Well - that would be really strange for Minmey to sleep with Hikaru but Hikaru still chooses Demon Woman who never once slept with him and only gave him grief...

But then again -maybe Minmey sleeps with everybody, while just one kiss from Misa is very romantic and enough to melt a guy's heart?

If Carl Macek had had his way, yes, Minmay would've slept with everybody. As it is, I don't think she does.

If anything, I would have expected her to fall for a guy like Global?

Well...Ishiguro DID indicate (on the AnimEigo bonus material) that there was something going on between Misa and Global...

kakizaki? man, you're being too harsh on yourself!

Kakizaki-dense = Minmay freaks out and steps back when he aggresively tries to greet her on her birthday, and he doesn't know why?

Kakizaki-dense = Misa decided that she would much rather kiss someone else rather than him, and he wonders "i wonder what's going on?"

can't we just call you "max"-esque? he, too, doesn't have a girl who's just a friend. he's kind of a one track-minded guy, in that sense. "hey, if i'm dating you, i'm loving you, babe."

I don't think VFTF1 ever asked anyone to marry him moments after she tried to stab him...of course, I could be wrong about that.

[dreamweaver13]

I think there was an episode where Global (altough I am fearing RT brainwashing here) was reminising about the old days where Misa's father served with Global and disregarded orders. So that would definitly support the he's -just-like-daddy theory

DAMN IT. i remember that clearly too, but i can't remember if that's also in SDFM!! DAMIT, DAMIT, DAMIT!

I remember it in RT Gloval voice, so maybe it's just there... help?

[Gubaba]

DAMN IT. i remember that clearly too, but i can't remember if that's also in SDFM!! DAMIT, DAMIT, DAMIT!

I remember it in RT Gloval voice, so maybe it's just there... help?

It was. There's a short story about it in Macross Perfect Memory, called "The Plundering Fleet."

[VFTF1]

So I don't think it happened that night, but I do think it happened, primarily because Christmas in Japan is considered a holiday for couples, and woe to the person who doesn't have a sex partner on Christmas Eve...

As you suggest, I think one of the problems is the character design. As Ginrai and VF5SS pointed out on Destroy All Podcasts, Mikimoto seems to be incapable of drawing an unattractive woman. A shrewish as she may be, Misa is still lovely enough that she should have no problem getting any guy's attention. But I'm guessing she gives off strong "f*ck off" vibes. One of my friends did that for a long time, and although she was 21, there was something kind of forty-ish about her. We can't really SEE it in the show, but I bet it's there.

Interesting way of looking at Christmas. I must adopt this view this year! As for Misa giving off a fcuk off vibe - yes - but that doesn't mean she doesn't have to be beautiful. My girlfriend TOTALLY gives off this vibe - heck; I still feel it five years into your relationship. I get a text message "come visit! I miss you!" and I arrive and have the feeling she hates me, blames me for every bad thing that happened, and wants to push me out of a fifth story window... But it's just the kind of vibe she gives off. Also, she is known at work as cruel and heartless - which to me is shocking because she really is very caring and tender and I'm always telling her "just fire the person" as the solution to whatever problem from work she brings up and she'd be like "but they have a family and a kid and bla bla bla" ... Yet she still gets all the flack... And she's 41 So it all fits. This is why I love Misa - the character is such a perfect perfect fit.

Getting a guy's attention and keeping it are - however - two different things. Misa gets guys attention and then opens her mouth and they guys flee in panic. My girlfriend is pretty much the same. I didn't run because I'm a sucker for punishment...and because I pretended not to understand Polish and would talk really fast english to her which threw her off track

can't we just call you "max"-esque? he, too, doesn't have a girl who's just a friend. he's kind of a one track-minded guy, in that sense. "hey, if i'm dating you, i'm loving you, babe."

But I don't have long blue hair and I'm not attracted to girls like Milia.

I have a theory. maybe misa finally found someone who's not intimidated by her. (for big-shot career women who tend to intimidate men, finding someone who isn't is usually a plus, isn't it?) and we all know how hikaru is never intimidated by her.

This might be true - good theory.

It's kind of a variation of Sheryl finding someone who isn't intimidated by her idol stature... and is still able to talk down to her like a normal guy. Hikaru also has this ability... yeah - that would work.

That would also make Alto/Sheryl and Hikaru/Misa far more similar than I had originally considered

Pete

[Gubaba]

But I don't have long blue hair and I'm not attracted to girls like Milia.

I dunno...your girlfriend sounds a little bit like Misa, but, from the way you describe her, she sounds EXACTLY like Milia in Macross 7...

[Bri]

Calling Hikaru dense... hey, you'll brook no argument from me there. he's as dense as they come. but to call him an idiot and incomprehensible? i wouldn't. because, if i did, i'd be as soon calling myself one.

this has happened to me before. i will befriend a girl, and we'd be very very close. but sometimes, i just don't see anything else. when you get to be good friends, even signs of affection, such as holding hands, walking late nights, or sharing feelings, can come across as BFF stuff. think harry met sally, before they became mr and mrs harry and sally.

it won't be later on until someone else (usually a common friend) points out to me that it's soooo obvious that she has feelings for me. And once it's been said, i look back, and every behavior has a different color to it. I see that the common friend is telling the truth, and i berate myself for not seeing it early on. for being hikaru-dense.

but why don't i see it before? well, if you don't have feelings for the girl from the start, i guess you tend to overlook things. or, even if your subconscious recognizes the signs, your mind denies these signs, because part of you is not ready to reciprocate. until someone confronts you with it head on, your mind can justify your refusal to acknowledge the possibility. or until you also begin to fall for her, and then you begin to analyse her behavior towards you. This is especially true if the guy is in love with someone else, which is the case with hikaru.

it's all about color. sometimes we guys see it, sometimes we dismiss it. the generic term for it is being dense. me? i'd call it a defense mechanism.

That is a nice analogy for the Hikaru is dense interpretation. I am not completly convinced that he doesn't notice it, but just outright ignores it as he is only interested in Minmay in that point. I have been in the situation where when I was in love with a girl, I just replused the attentions of another girl. Who may have been a nicer person, but at the time I could not really care. In hindsight it is always easier

[dreamweaver13]

It was. There's a short story about it in Macross Perfect Memory, called "The Plundering Fleet."

Oh thank god.

[dreamweaver13]

That is a nice analogy for the Hikaru is dense interpretation. I am not completly convinced that he doesn't notice it, but just outright ignores it as he is only interested in Minmay in that point. I have been in the situation where when I was in love with a girl, I just replused the attentions of another girl. Who may have been a nicer person, but at the time I could not really care. In hindsight it is always easier

haha. yeah. harsh as it may seem, he may have been ignoring it (consciously or subconsciously) coz he was in love with minmay.

[Rbstr]

I hate to go back so far in the discussion...

But when does Misa sleep with Hikaru in DYRL? I never got that impression. In fact I never got the impression that poor Ichijo ever got any action in any version of the story except, perhaps, christmas.

[VFTF1]

When they are in the protoculture city, we see them kiss after their "pretend diner."

Scene fades to black.

Next scene we have rumbling and Hikaru checking out the commotion (it's the Macross coming).

At this point, Misa comes outisde - and we see her zipping up her jacket.

It seems pretty obvious to me that they slept together that night.

This in turn was very helpful for Hikaru when confronting both girls later - helpful in chosing Misa (who put out) over Minmei (who kept teasing but refused to go to the motel with him when on their date)

The date that Hikaru was sure - I think - would land Minmei in bed with him per Roy's advise about being aggressive with a girl.

Turns out if the girl loves you (Misa) you don't have to do anything except BE there to get her to sleep with you.

Pete

[Bri]

I hate to go back so far in the discussion...

But when does Misa sleep with Hikaru in DYRL? I never got that impression. In fact I never got the impression that poor Ichijo ever got any action in any version of the story except, perhaps, christmas.

There isn't much to see. In the alien city afer their kiss, the scene fades to black. Then in the early morning (or during the night) when the Macross shows up you see them both walk out of the house, Misa tugging back her clothes. Visual trope for them having slept together.

[MilSpex]

I agree. Ice! Ice! Baby! was the pinnacle of the genre. Not to mention You Got Ta Pray Just Ta Make it Today! Hamma' Time!

In fact, I'm surprised any music of any genre was made after that.

You don`t know anything about hip hop.

[geepogi]

can they not have spent the night

together without having sex?

i guess it depends on culture.

i'm asian and when i watched

dyrl it never occured to me that

they "did" it.

dreamweaver, i enjoyed reading

your thread. i don't know, but ever

since the beginning, i have always

liked misa. must be her eyes and

her quiet disposition. she is also

like another favorite character of

mine, ayukawa madoka of kimagure

orange road.

[dreamweaver13]

I dunno...your girlfriend sounds a little bit like Misa, but, from the way you describe her, she sounds EXACTLY like Milia in Macross 7...

Come to think of it... someone get VFTV1 a blue wig!

on another matter, i just realized something else about the triangle.

if the series had ended on ep27, the resolution of the triangle is: Hikaru finally confesses, but gets dumped. settles for the next best thing - misa. happily ever after.

after the post-war episodes, the resolution of the triangle is: Hikaru actually makes a choice, and finally chooses misa. happily ever after.

The series could have definitely ended with ep27, and the triangle would have been resolved. but then again, something feels off about a triangle resolved that way... at least in DYRL, hikaru also made a choice.

[Gubaba]

Come to think of it... someone get VFTV1 a blue wig!

on another matter, i just realized something else about the triangle.

if the series had ended on ep27, the resolution of the triangle is: Hikaru finally confesses, but gets dumped. settles for the next best thing - misa. happily ever after.

after the post-war episodes, the resolution of the triangle is: Hikaru actually makes a choice, and finally chooses misa. happily ever after.

The series could have definitely ended with ep27, and the triangle would have been resolved. but then again, something feels off about a triangle resolved that way... at least in DYRL, hikaru also made a choice.

Enh, it'd still be better than, say, the resolution of Plus. Although Sharon kind of chooses for Myung even before Guld dies...

[dreamweaver13]

can they not have spent the night

together without having sex?

i guess it depends on culture.

i'm asian and when i watched

dyrl it never occured to me that

they "did" it.

dreamweaver, i enjoyed reading

your thread. i don't know, but ever

since the beginning, i have always

liked misa. must be her eyes and

her quiet disposition. she is also

like another favorite character of

mine, ayukawa madoka of kimagure

orange road.

haha. i'm also asian, but i thought that they had sex. the hint was very subtle, so much so that i think it isn't supposed to be a big deal. either you thought they did, or didn't; ultimately, it's really irrelevant as far as the plot goes. the important thing is they became a couple after that, sex or no sex.

hey, I always liked misa too. but i like minmay as well. hell, that's probably why i started this thread. coz deep down, i know that if i'm suddenly placed in the situation, i would most probably be neck-deep in the same mess that Hikaru was.

[dreamweaver13]

Enh, it'd still be better than, say, the resolution of Plus. Although Sharon kind of chooses for Myung even before Guld dies...

got a point there. triangle resolution by death is a crappy way to go.

[fifbeat]

dreamweaver13:

Great write up.

The only thing I dislike about the later episodes is the crappy, rushed artwork. lol other than that, I liked the aftermath episodes.

It's amazing how many times I have revisited/renewed my appreciation for all things Macross. It just never leaves my system.

And yes, mecha/fighting/action aside, what stands out for me the most is the drama/love triangle bit of it.

There's not another anime/movie/tv show that has made more of an impression on me than this series.

[VFTF1]

Enh, it'd still be better than, say, the resolution of Plus

I can't believe I'm going to defend something about Macross: Plus - my least favorite of all the Macross series/OVas/movies but...

I thought the resolution of the love triangle in Plus was great. Sometimes, we lose sight of the fact that having the problem of "who to choose?" is a luxury. Guild loved Myung and died to protect her - independent of whether or not she "chose" him - he would have waited for the choice to be made, and in the meantime, if it meant dying for her to protect her - he did it.

Sharon "prefering" Isamu or not is irrelevent because Sharon is just a screwed up computer program. In any case - it's not Sharon who'se important here, it's Myung.

Pete

[VF5SS]

As Ginrai and VF5SS pointed out on Destroy All Podcasts, Mikimoto seems to be incapable of drawing an unattractive woman.

All 7 volumes of Macross 7 Trash will not let me forget this fact. Although back when he was drawing SDFM, Mikimoto was almost incapable of drawing feet and hands so watch out for Misa super pointy heel kick.

[dreamweaver13]

dreamweaver13:

Great write up.

The only thing I dislike about the later episodes is the crappy, rushed artwork. lol other than that, I liked the aftermath episodes.

It's amazing how many times I have revisited/renewed my appreciation for all things Macross. It just never leaves my system.

And yes, mecha/fighting/action aside, what stands out for me the most is the drama/love triangle bit of it.

There's not another anime/movie/tv show that has made more of an impression on me than this series.

it never gets old, does it?

I can't believe I'm going to defend something about Macross: Plus - my least favorite of all the Macross series/OVas/movies but...

I thought the resolution of the love triangle in Plus was great. Sometimes, we lose sight of the fact that having the problem of "who to choose?" is a luxury. Guild loved Myung and died to protect her - independent of whether or not she "chose" him - he would have waited for the choice to be made, and in the meantime, if it meant dying for her to protect her - he did it.

Sharon "prefering" Isamu or not is irrelevent because Sharon is just a screwed up computer program. In any case - it's not Sharon who'se important here, it's Myung.

Pete

interesting perspective. although i think guld already thought that myung had made a choice already, through sharon. which is why he asked isamu to rescue myung. "she's waiting for you", or something to that effect.