Thoughts on the SDFM aftermath episodes

[Killer Robot]

Interesting comparison you make between Misa and Minmay. Question is how much this difference is due to personality and not age. Minmay is still a teenager throughout SDFM and has the typical fickle and selfcentered mindset of that age. Misa is in her early 20s and has learned through personal tragedies that life is not all about ones self. Still Minmay is not incapable of compassion either, for example she notices that Hikaru is down and asks Roy to tallk to him. Signs she does deeply care for Hikaru. The choice between Minmay and Misa is mainly between girl and woman, not so much between their characters.

Related but not identical to the issue of simple age, Minmay was also going through the abrupt transition from ordinary girl with some dreams to local celebrity to worldwide legend (well, what was left of the world at least). So much of her fickleness and seeming cluelessness about what was going on around her stems directly from how much she was being immersed in her new career, and pushed by industry people, Kaifun, etc. into their vision of what she should be. She was being manipulated and overwhelmed the whole time, wheras apart from being pulled off the Macross by her father Misa wasn't being isolated or pushed so much. She was in a settled career with familiar friends/coworkers, in a position of authority with a superior who valued her judgement and advice. Experience aside, a stable life makes stable behavior easier.

[Bri]

Are you sure about that? I recall that it was Ozma who cited Leon's ambitions as the quality Cathy prefered over a man who lives for flying and his sister - those were Ozma's words - not Cathy's - in episode 17.

Yes, it's Cathy who said that she liked Leon's ambition at first. The dialog:

C: He is ambitious. I used to think this was his strong point but...

O: he is the opposite of some one you know?

O: Sorry I said to much

C: Indeed!

C: Unlike a certain person who is only good at flying and only lives for his sister, right?

Well - you state the obvious - but it's so seldom stated, and when it is stated it's often done as a complaint along the lines of "this is all just a rehash of what was" instead of seeing it as a virtue; a kind of feint game of "what if?"

Still - I wouldn't go so totally far as to say that Cathy has Minmei's traits. If anything her story is a more tragic variation on Misa's - at least in terms of how she starts off.

Yea, my point didn't really come out well there. What I meant was: Cathy looks so much like Misa therefor she cannot have a Misa type personality because of the Frontier masquerade theme.

Related but not identical to the issue of simple age, Minmay was also going through the abrupt transition from ordinary girl with some dreams to local celebrity to worldwide legend (well, what was left of the world at least). So much of her fickleness and seeming cluelessness about what was going on around her stems directly from how much she was being immersed in her new career, and pushed by industry people, Kaifun, etc. into their vision of what she should be. She was being manipulated and overwhelmed the whole time, wheras apart from being pulled off the Macross by her father Misa wasn't being isolated or pushed so much. She was in a settled career with familiar friends/coworkers, in a position of authority with a superior who valued her judgement and advice. Experience aside, a stable life makes stable behavior easier.

Agreed, her world was changing and she needed a friend, not a lover. SDFM's Minmay isn't the dense RT version. She knows Hikaru likes her but doesn't want to risk their friendship I'm sure. That partly why the aftermath ( to get back on topic) is so interesting. Minmay has been around and her dream has now become a normal job. She now looks for a partner in Hikaru but he has already drifted to far away.

Edited June 17, 2009 by Bri

[VFTF1]

C: He is ambitious. I used to think this was his strong point but...

O: he is the opposite of some one you know?

O: Sorry I said to much

C: Indeed!

C: Unlike a certain person who is only good at flying and only lives for his sister, right?

Thanks for quoting the exact text. I guess I must have just remembered it a bit different because the way Cathy says it, the facial expressions and the general mood made me think she was being ironic; not all too serious...

As for Minmei needing a friend and not a lover - dag... Minmei is HARD to crack.

At least Sheryl is up front - as she says to Alto in "Star Date" - her boobs are just part of her marketing strategy. She pretty much likes Alto because he doesn't care about her as a marketable good...

With Minmei, however, I never could tell. I mean - when asked during Miss Macross if she has a boyfriend, she repeats the "I have friends" line - and she does it with a cute coyness... when the soldiers tease her about possibly being romantically involved with Hikaru, she feigns anger and embarrasment - although ultimately is composed and changes the subject to placing an order for the soldiers...

Er - I guess I'm just saying it seems to me that Minmei knows what she's doing insofar as manipulating other people's emotions.

HOWEVER

She does NOT have any idea about her own emotions and does not know how to control them.

I dunno - she's hard to understand.

Pete

[Bri]

With Minmei, however, I never could tell. I mean - when asked during Miss Macross if she has a boyfriend, she repeats the "I have friends" line - and she does it with a cute coyness... when the soldiers tease her about possibly being romantically involved with Hikaru, she feigns anger and embarrasment - although ultimately is composed and changes the subject to placing an order for the soldiers...

That makes me think of the scene in Neon Genesis where Shinji complains to his friends about Misato's domestic habbits. His friends tell him off. They interpret Misato showing her true self to Shinji as accepting him as family.

I think the same goes for Minmay. She has a public face and a private one. Hikaru gets to see the real Minmay but he doesn't distinguish between the two of them and ends up getting hurt by her public statements. Maybe it's also a bit of pride on his side that he can't accept being the private friend but also wants to make claim her for the world to see. What convinced me that she blatently loves him (which is not the same as accepting him as a boyfriend) is that she drops her work and rushes to the hospital when Focker tells her that he is hurt. Maybe I'm misreading Japanese culture there but given the strict work ethos you just don't do that for any friend.

[Killer Robot]

Agreed, her world was changing and she needed a friend, not a lover. SDFM's Minmay isn't the dense RT version. She knows Hikaru likes her but doesn't want to risk their friendship I'm sure. That partly why the aftermath ( to get back on topic) is so interesting. Minmay has been around and her dream has now become a normal job. She now looks for a partner in Hikaru but he has already drifted to far away.

Hikaru's part in that was one I didn't initially consider either. In SDFM they met as a couple of teenagers and then as he became a soldier she became a star, leading to the awkwardness and disconnection as their lives pulled them different directions...and also pulling Hikaru's life to where he had more in common with Misa anyway. That was also a big part of how things played out, rather than just what Minmay was like.

[MilSpex]

Animation techniques, production values, even the basics of storytelling in an animated television medium - these are all things that evolve over time, and new works build upon both good and bad lessons of the old. Quite apart from this, any work is a product of its culture and era, its references and topics and storytelling conventions, and time changes the audience. So is age a handicap for a TV show to work against? Absolutely! There are a lot of old shows, like works in any other medium, that stand the test of time better than others. These are the classics that people will keep coming back to. Even then, classics are often enjoyed strictly in context of their era. As television sci-fi goes, original Star Trek is a widely loved classic, but I think few would seriously claim that a new show written, acted, and presented just as those old episodes were would be well-received.

Completely disagree. As time goes on creativity wanes, ideas get done to death and rehashed (Macross Frontier anyone?) and production companies take less risks (see endless hollywood sequels and remakes).

Unfortunately everything great has been and gone. All good hip hop was done in the `80s and `90s, all good punk in the `70s and `80s and all good mecha anime was done in the `80s. The time was just right at those times for those things and the fact that Macross happened 25 years ago is completely irrelevant and unconnected to its quality.

[dreamweaver13]

What Hikaru didn't expect was to find a woman that would love him as he was. I think one of the best illustrations of Misa's love was when Hikaru was about to sorty (again) and made some whiny complaint to Misa (as usual) and she didn't respond at all. Claudia said something like "are you going to let him get away talking to an officer like that?" and Misa said, with a smile, "I've gotten used to it. I don't mind. I kind of like it." This was a very tender moment, in my view, because it showed how fond Misa was of Hikaru as a person - of how Hikaru acted, behaived and thought. I think she appreciated his gallantry - even though it was usually couched in complaints.

I can't remember this particular quote, pete. I do remember claudia saying something about insubordinate attitude to misa, but i don't recall misa saying that she kinda liked it. i might be wrong. do you remember which episode this was? thanks.

[dreamweaver13]

As for Minmei needing a friend and not a lover - dag... Minmei is HARD to crack.

With Minmei, however, I never could tell. I mean - when asked during Miss Macross if she has a boyfriend, she repeats the "I have friends" line - and she does it with a cute coyness... when the soldiers tease her about possibly being romantically involved with Hikaru, she feigns anger and embarrasment - although ultimately is composed and changes the subject to placing an order for the soldiers...

Er - I guess I'm just saying it seems to me that Minmei knows what she's doing insofar as manipulating other people's emotions.

HOWEVER

She does NOT have any idea about her own emotions and does not know how to control them.

I dunno - she's hard to understand.

Pete

We have to remember that Hikaru never confessed his feelings for Minmay either, not until episode 27. Sure, they had a moment while trapped under SDFM, but in Manmay's mind, how much of that is desperation? How much of that is a spur of the moment? And why would minmay assume that Hikaru had romantic intentions towards her? Look back at the whole series and you might realize that the things that Hikaru does (meet her on his official day-off, attend her birthday, give her a special birthday gift) are also things that a very good friend would do for a girl. perhaps at minmay's relatively young age, she just didn't realize the romantic implications of it until it was forced upon her by Hikaru's confession in ep27. But by then, she already had feelings for Kaifun.

as for the her coyness in miss macross, declaring that she has a lot of friends. do you really expect any self-respecting girl to say, "yeah i have this boyfriend", when that "guy" hasn't even confessed to her yet? What if she misinterpreted his attitude towards her, wouldn't that be downright embarassing for the girl afterwards? In my mind, the girl who assumes that the guy already likes her, and declares it to the whole world, even before an actual confession, or even before a conversation between them, may have some kind of ego problem.

Like i said in the OP, i never got the impression from SDFM that minmay was playing or manipulating hikaru's feelings. at worst, she was a flirt. a bit too friendly, maybe. but most of it may just be because of her young age. she doesn't tend to overthink what her actions means in a romantic sense. that overthinking comes much later.

[dreamweaver13]

Thanks! I'm 31 so definitely not a young whipper snapper that is at all "Surprised" as you've rightly pointed out. Yeah, I did say great. If anything, I am suprised that something that was marketed to kids (in the states at least) had such a well written and rich storyline. Just proves that it was not originally written for kids! Or maybe that's too big an assumption. That's probably what I should have conveyed a bit better.

Of course, this comment was a page ago so could now be moot!

Ok, one last edit - just read the rest of the comments.

What I should have said is that I'm surprised that my 6/7 year old brain could see this series as something really special when I was that age and here I am, now over 30 and I can still see it as something special. Why can't new stuff be this good? Then again, when was the last time I sat down to watch a saturday morning cartoon? Honestly, I don't think we've had anything this good as something marketed to children since. I used to be a massive Transformers cartoon fan too, but the story line there was nowhere near as "real" as what we see in Macross. Ignoring the giants and unbelievable technology of course!

Does that help or have I dug myself an even bigger hole?

haha, i was going to point out that you were at least 26 years old, reading from your post, but i didn't want to actually start a discussion on someone's age. thanks for volunteering the info.

I think whether the show was written for kids or for adults is irrelevant. what matters is that the story itself was good enough for everyone of any age. and you're right, even as a kid, i knew i was not just watching any regular saturday "cartoon". at that age, who gives a crap about who ends up with whom; give me the tranforming robot action. but, surprise of surprises, it was the story that reached out to me even as a little kid.

on a related note, don't you guys get tired of the marketing that comes out for new shows or movies these days. "written for kids, but even adults will like it!". sheesh. yeah, we get it already.

[dreamweaver13]

I would disagree. Cathy cites Leon's ambition as his main quality unlike Ozma's who lives for flying and his sister. In honesty Cathy is in many ways more like Minmay, immature, self confidant, selfish, she even took part in a MissMacross contest. The fact she realises that Ozma is a good guy is more of a sign of growing up then anything else. Just shows that age and maturity are not the same thing. As a good Macross character she comes to see the folly of her ways and turns around. Misa has a far stricter code of honor. Not really suprising as Misa has been raised by a soldier in stead of a politician

Interesting. I guess we can't really compare cathy to either misa or minmay, because we don't really know how she behaved during her teen years. How did she behave when she was a miss macross candidate? when she was dating ozma? When she got pissed off with ozma with caring more about his plane than he did about her? Now here's a thought: what if she actually made that same demand of ozma that minmay did of hikaru: quit the military and we'll get married?

for all we know, cathy acted like minmay at 16, like misa at 19, and now a mature and strong woman at 23.

Edited June 18, 2009 by dreamweaver13

[taksraven]

I could have coped with it if it had been shorter, about 3-4 eps that were animated well. Too many of them were animated really badly, as we all know.

Taksraven

[dreamweaver13]

I could have coped with it if it had been shorter, about 3-4 eps that were animated well. Too many of them were animated really badly, as we all know.

Taksraven

In my opinion, the only ones that were really terribly awfully animated was Satan's Dolls and Broken Heart, but considering how really terribly awfully animated those episodes were, it certainly felt like two episodes too many.

[Killer Robot]

Completely disagree. As time goes on creativity wanes, ideas get done to death and rehashed (Macross Frontier anyone?) and production companies take less risks (see endless hollywood sequels and remakes).

Unfortunately everything great has been and gone. All good hip hop was done in the `80s and `90s, all good punk in the `70s and `80s and all good mecha anime was done in the `80s. The time was just right at those times for those things and the fact that Macross happened 25 years ago is completely irrelevant and unconnected to its quality.

Here's the trick. 25 years ago, people just like you were saying exactly the same thing as you are. Was that true? Is 80s music and television itself terrible compared to the stuff 25 years before that? And how about then, when people were talking about the same? You can go back to the ancient Greeks and see writings about decline of the arts, how kids these days are spoiled and misbehaving, and all of that. I figure, if I wanted to make that argument today there are three routes I can take. I can assume that everyone is correct and that the least work of Neolithic art is of far greater quality than the masterpieces of today, but that's ridiculous. I can assume that most people through history making such claims were mistaken but in my current judgement of nostalgia for the old days I have found absolute truth, but that seems rather arrogant. Or I can assume that "things were better back in the day" is also a phase of personal taste people normally go through rather than a meaningful judgement of quality or trends in the arts. I'm going with the third, myself.

[Gubaba]

Here's the trick. 25 years ago, people just like you were saying exactly the same thing as you are. Was that true? Is 80s music and television itself terrible compared to the stuff 25 years before that? And how about then, when people were talking about the same? You can go back to the ancient Greeks and see writings about decline of the arts, how kids these days are spoiled and misbehaving, and all of that. I figure, if I wanted to make that argument today there are three routes I can take. I can assume that everyone is correct and that the least work of Neolithic art is of far greater quality than the masterpieces of today, but that's ridiculous. I can assume that most people through history making such claims were mistaken but in my current judgement of nostalgia for the old days I have found absolute truth, but that seems rather arrogant. Or I can assume that "things were better back in the day" is also a phase of personal taste people normally go through rather than a meaningful judgement of quality or trends in the arts. I'm going with the third, myself.

BRAVO! I agree wholeheartedly. There is always good (and even great) stuff being made all the time, in every fields of the arts. You just have to find it.

(But you know what's really been on the wane? Epic Poetry. By my estimate, the last great epic poet was Milton, and he died centuries ago. Where are the great epic poets these days? )

Anyway, back on topic...I kind of agree with Taksraven, and I kind of don't. The last nine episodes of SDFM do seem to run a little long, but I think that's because they're more episodic than the first parts (yes, parts. I view SDFM as kind of a loose trilogy, with Part I being episodes 1~13, Part II covering 14~27, and Part III being 28~36. Do other people see it like this, or am I the only one?). Which is fine. The primary conflict is over, and the last episodes are almost like a series of linked short stories showing us the world after the apocalypse.

I do think it was a weird way to end the series, but I think it worked...primarily BECAUSE it's a weird way to end the series. Hikaru, Misa, and Minmay (and yes, Kaifun and Kamujin as well) are interesting, and the world the stories present is interesting. It lacks the space opera grandeur of the first parts, but the quiet, subdued introspection serves the story well.

And all that aside...Romanesque: BEST. CHRISTMAS. EPISODE. EVER.

[dreamweaver13]

BRAVO! I agree wholeheartedly. There is always good (and even great) stuff being made all the time, in every fields of the arts. You just have to find it.

(But you know what's really been on the wane? Epic Poetry. By my estimate, the last great epic poet was Milton, and he died centuries ago. Where are the great epic poets these days? )

Anyway, back on topic...I kind of agree with Taksraven, and I kind of don't. The last nine episodes of SDFM do seem to run a little long, but I think that's because they're more episodic than the first parts (yes, parts. I view SDFM as kind of a loose trilogy, with Part I being episodes 1~13, Part II covering 14~27, and Part III being 28~36. Do other people see it like this, or am I the only one?). Which is fine. The primary conflict is over, and the last episodes are almost like a series of linked short stories showing us the world after the apocalypse.

I do think it was a weird way to end the series, but I think it worked...primarily BECAUSE it's a weird way to end the series. Hikaru, Misa, and Minmay (and yes, Kaifun and Kamujin as well) are interesting, and the world the stories present is interesting. It lacks the space opera grandeur of the first parts, but the quiet, subdued introspection serves the story well.

And all that aside...Romanesque: BEST. CHRISTMAS. EPISODE. EVER.

You're treating the recap episode as an intermission, eh? makes perfect sense. but personally, i even saw more parts. Space episodes (1-12), Earth episodes (14-20), SW1 (21-27) and finally the aftermath.

and yes, ROMANESQUE RULZ!!

[dreamweaver13]

On a related matter, anyone care to give their opinion why Misa smiles against the sunrise in the ending of "Broken Heart"? I could give so many meanings to it, but i still can't pinpoint the one that feels exacty right. Was she happy that hikaru still decided to obey orders despite minmay being there? was she just happy about the success of the mission. if that's all it was, the smile just doesn't feel right to me.

Oh and one more thing. I only realized this during my last viewing of the aftermath eps. the strategy used for the rescue operation (i.e. using zentraedi as decoys to get kamjin out of the concert hall) was actually Hikaru's idea, and was in direct disobedience of the strategy devised by the military commanders and sought to be implemented by misa. Bravo to misa for allowing Hikaru enough latitude to do the rescue his way. she could have been court martialed for that if something went wrong.

also, that was the source of another great line from misa: "i wonder if you'll be this worked up if i was the hostage?". And true to form, hikaru could only say, "baka". haha. classic!

on the other hand, hikaru once again showed brilliant command foresight, out-of-the-box thinking, and knowledge of the enemy. "this is kamjin we're talking about. of course he'll fall for it."

[taksraven]

Here's the trick. 25 years ago, people just like you were saying exactly the same thing as you are. Was that true? Is 80s music and television itself terrible compared to the stuff 25 years before that? And how about then, when people were talking about the same? You can go back to the ancient Greeks and see writings about decline of the arts, how kids these days are spoiled and misbehaving, and all of that. I figure, if I wanted to make that argument today there are three routes I can take. I can assume that everyone is correct and that the least work of Neolithic art is of far greater quality than the masterpieces of today, but that's ridiculous. I can assume that most people through history making such claims were mistaken but in my current judgement of nostalgia for the old days I have found absolute truth, but that seems rather arrogant. Or I can assume that "things were better back in the day" is also a phase of personal taste people normally go through rather than a meaningful judgement of quality or trends in the arts. I'm going with the third, myself.

You are getting to the core of ageing and perception here. Are things as good as they always were, are things getting worse, or are we just perceiving things differently. Most people probably have an opinion on this sort of thing. Personally, I think that as most people get older they look back more and more at the past through rose coloured glasses. They forget the bad and unpleasant things, focus on the good things and all of a sudden the past miraculously turns into a golden age and you are sorry that you are not there anymore.

Do you have any quotes from the ancient Greeks. I am not doubting you, but I remember when I was at Uni one of our lecturers showed us a quote by one of the famous Greeks bemoaning the fact that students were in decline and they were progressively getting dumber year by year. I would love to have that quote again, thats all.

Taksraven

[VFTF1]

I can't remember this particular quote, pete. I do remember claudia saying something about insubordinate attitude to misa, but i don't recall misa saying that she kinda liked it. i might be wrong. do you remember which episode this was? thanks.

I will have to go back and check which exact episode - but afterwards, when Misa doesn't yell at him - Hikaru says to himself "oh I expected her to bite my head off for that one" (if that quote rings any bells?) - but I will check. I'm sure it happened though...

as for the her coyness in miss macross, declaring that she has a lot of friends. do you really expect any self-respecting girl to say, "yeah i have this boyfriend", when that "guy" hasn't even confessed to her yet? What if she misinterpreted his attitude towards her, wouldn't that be downright embarassing for the girl afterwards?

Point well made and taken.

Gubbaba:

(But you know what's really been on the wane? Epic Poetry. By my estimate, the last great epic poet was Milton, and he died centuries ago. Where are the great epic poets these days?

The greatest Epioc Poet of the XXth century lives in Australia. PM sent.

Pete

[Killer Robot]

You are getting to the core of ageing and perception here. Are things as good as they always were, are things getting worse, or are we just perceiving things differently. Most people probably have an opinion on this sort of thing. Personally, I think that as most people get older they look back more and more at the past through rose coloured glasses. They forget the bad and unpleasant things, focus on the good things and all of a sudden the past miraculously turns into a golden age and you are sorry that you are not there anymore.

Do you have any quotes from the ancient Greeks. I am not doubting you, but I remember when I was at Uni one of our lecturers showed us a quote by one of the famous Greeks bemoaning the fact that students were in decline and they were progressively getting dumber year by year. I would love to have that quote again, thats all.

Taksraven

Sadly, it looks like the quote I was thinking of, while widely spread, is spurious, first stated in the 1960s.

The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they allow disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children now are tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers. - Socrates, cited by Plato (or so someone claimed but couldn't back up)

There are a number of other quotes of similarly questionable veracity too:

"Times are bad. children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is writing a book..." attributed to Cicero.

On the other hand, these misattributions themselves have been out and about for decades, meaning that before many of the people currently bemoaning the decline of society were even born, people were not only doing the same, but rebutting the argument with claims that it has always been so. Not to mention my search turning up more genuinely sourced quotes going back a century. For that matter, moving from decline of the arts to decline of the youth is a tangent anyway. I stick by my point - misplaced romanticism about how much better and fresher people and their works used to be is an old, old thing, and I see no reason to believe it is more true now than when people decades or centuries ago said it.

[taksraven]

Sadly, it looks like the quote I was thinking of, while widely spread, is spurious, first stated in the 1960s.

The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they allow disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children now are tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers. - Socrates, cited by Plato (or so someone claimed but couldn't back up)

There are a number of other quotes of similarly questionable veracity too:

"Times are bad. children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is writing a book..." attributed to Cicero.

On the other hand, these misattributions themselves have been out and about for decades, meaning that before many of the people currently bemoaning the decline of society were even born, people were not only doing the same, but rebutting the argument with claims that it has always been so. Not to mention my search turning up more genuinely sourced quotes going back a century. For that matter, moving from decline of the arts to decline of the youth is a tangent anyway. I stick by my point - misplaced romanticism about how much better and fresher people and their works used to be is an old, old thing, and I see no reason to believe it is more true now than when people decades or centuries ago said it.

Thanks for that, it was the exact quote that I was seeking. The reason I wanted it was so could check its authenticity, as I had my own doubts.

When I was at uni, our lecturers also threw us this BS too....

http://www.snopes.com/language/document/1872rule.asp

Taksraven

[dreamweaver13]

You are getting to the core of ageing and perception here. Are things as good as they always were, are things getting worse, or are we just perceiving things differently. Most people probably have an opinion on this sort of thing. Personally, I think that as most people get older they look back more and more at the past through rose coloured glasses. They forget the bad and unpleasant things, focus on the good things and all of a sudden the past miraculously turns into a golden age and you are sorry that you are not there anymore.

Do you have any quotes from the ancient Greeks. I am not doubting you, but I remember when I was at Uni one of our lecturers showed us a quote by one of the famous Greeks bemoaning the fact that students were in decline and they were progressively getting dumber year by year. I would love to have that quote again, thats all.

Taksraven

haha. you have to think about it. if even the old greeks already thought that the younger generation were inferior, you'd think we'd all be primates by now.

[VFTF1]

There is a simple solution to all of this and a good rule of thumb in terms of age/wisdom - this rule is a timeless truth:

People who are younger than me are just juvenile inexperienced young whiper snappers who need to be quiet and respect every word of mine.

People my age are generally wise and cool.

People older than me are old are ol' foggies who are out of touch and not with it and conventional conformists who are incapable of independent thought.

See? Easy

Pete

EDIT: This rule of thumb does not apply to women. Younger women, older women and women my age are all great. Especially if they're hot.

Edited June 19, 2009 by VFTF1

[MilSpex]

So how does any of this talk proove that older works have an entertainment disadvantage?

[Gubaba]

So how does any of this talk proove that older works have an entertainment disadvantage?

Was someone trying to prove that?

[Rbstr]

So how does any of this talk proove that older works have an entertainment disadvantage?

You weren't arguing that.

You were saying nothing new is any good...and that is just as false as saying nothing old is good.

There's plenty of good music (including hip hop and punk) and there certainly have been good mecha shows produced in this decade or very recently: Eureka 7, Gurren Lagan, Diebuster, some might cite Code Geass, but you millage may vary on that one...I'd call the two most recent Macross titles genuinely good. If ya go back to the 90's you get Eva and others.

Sure they're slightly different in tone, you get the face faulting and all that. I'd certainly say that I'd like to see some actual adults/college age instead of the normalhigh(middle)schoolkid as the main character.

[dreamweaver13]

There is a simple solution to all of this and a good rule of thumb in terms of age/wisdom - this rule is a timeless truth:

People who are younger than me are just juvenile inexperienced young whiper snappers who need to be quiet and respect every word of mine.

People my age are generally wise and cool.

People older than me are old are ol' foggies who are out of touch and not with it and conventional conformists who are incapable of independent thought.

See? Easy

Pete

EDIT: This rule of thumb does not apply to women. Younger women, older women and women my age are all great. Especially if they're hot.

Pete, my man, i have not seen the generational cycle of life summarized better than you just did. i salute you.

[Gubaba]

Pete, my man, i have not seen the generational cycle of life summarized better than you just did. i salute you.

I have to say, I think you're taking the hijacking of your thread awfully well.

[dreamweaver13]

I have to say, I think you're taking the hijacking of your thread awfully well.

If you noticed, I try only to reply to posts that attempt to close the side-topic once and for all, trying to give it an air of finality. my subtle way of saying, "ok see there not much to that issue.give it a rest."

And I avoid replying to milspex's posts coz he seems a bit defensive about his position....

oops. uh-oh... now i've done it...

[Gubaba]

If you noticed, I try only to reply to posts that attempt to close the side-topic once and for all, trying to give it an air of finality. my subtle way of saying, "ok see there not much to that issue.give it a rest."

And I avoid replying to milspex's posts coz he seems a bit defensive about his position....

oops. uh-oh... now i've done it...

Uh...um...y'know what I really liked? Milia throwing the baby. That was HOT!

Although, I always thought the introduction of the Supervision Army ship in that episode was odd.

"Oh look! It's a Supervision Army ship! Let's check it out!"

"Better not. It might be booby trapped."

"Oh, okay."

And then it never gets mentioned again. Weird.

[dreamweaver13]

Uh...um...y'know what I really liked? Milia throwing the baby. That was HOT!

Although, I always thought the introduction of the Supervision Army ship in that episode was odd.

"Oh look! It's a Supervision Army ship! Let's check it out!"

"Better not. It might be booby trapped."

"Oh, okay."

And then it never gets mentioned again. Weird.

even worse, britai actually interrupted claudia and misa from their rest (and misa possibly on the verge of some kind of confession to hikaru) just to show a ship that they won't even stop to check anyway. i mean, what was the point?? what a tease!

[VFTF1]

I thought the Supervision Ship incident was perfectly cogent and logical. It makes sense that they'd stumble on something like that, and it also makes sense that Britai would fetch Misa to show it to her, and that ultimately after some deliberation they'd conclude that they need to focus on their primary mission rather than risk further confrontation - makes sense. It's really no more of a "tease" than the WTF-1 in Frontier

As for Milia throwing the baby - that WAS a great shot. In fact, that whole domestic scene was interesting because Hikaru seemed to be really freaked by family life; and by the baby in particular. All of the nudging done to induce Hikaru towards Misa, and he still doesn't really get it...or does he?

That's something I wonder - we've got a good explanation for Minmei's "he's my friend" line provided a few posts up by Dreamweaver, and we've analyzed Minmei's psyche a bit to understand her. Same with Misa...

But what about Hikaru?

I mean - come on - how dumb can he be? It's like episode 1 zillion of the series when he Misa decides to apologize to hium, but he comes over and chews her out and the bridge bunnies are like "Lt. Ichijo is dense." "Lt. Ichijo doesn't realize Cpt. Hayese loves him."

And as much as I hate explaining away events by way of "'cause he's stoooopid" - I fail to come up with a better reason.

Alto at least was stubborn, self-absorbed, problematic, aloof, elitist (in an artsy-fartsy kind of way), re-active (lots of what he does is just him running away/rebelling against his dad) --- but he wasn't dumb. I mean - he did notice that Ranka liked and later loved him and he cared a lot for her. He also did start developing feelings for Sheryl as soon as Sheryl stopped being a biatch to him (aka episode 3 onward)...

But Hikaru - goodness. He's dense. The ONLY time I saw him take the initiative was when he peeked in on Minmai showering.

I used to think that the problem was that Minmei confused him too much and short-circuited his impulses. He didn't know whether he was coming or going... and Misa - well... when she grabbed his hand after the Shao Pai Lon attack and asked him to stay and walk with her a while - how much more explicit did she need to be?

And she did say she prefered kissing him to Kakizake

I dunno... I don't understand Hikaru's behavior much.

Pete

[Gubaba]

I thought the Supervision Ship incident was perfectly cogent and logical. It makes sense that they'd stumble on something like that, and it also makes sense that Britai would fetch Misa to show it to her, and that ultimately after some deliberation they'd conclude that they need to focus on their primary mission rather than risk further confrontation - makes sense. It's really no more of a "tease" than the WTF-1 in Frontier

No, I think it was MUCH more of a tease...he's a Supervision Army ship. We know they made the Macross originally, we know they fought the Zentradi, but we know nothing else about them. Here comes what looks like an opportunity for the show to come full circle, and explain what the deal is with the Supervision Army...and it just floats on by.

It comes out of nowhere, it has no impact on the plot, and it's forgotten.

But because of that oddness, it's one of my favorite scenes in the latter part of the series.

(And hey! Since that episode was written by Hiroshi Ohnogi, why don't we just ask Shaloom why that scene's in there? I bet he's got TONS of info about it! )

[MilSpex]

You weren't arguing that.

er yes I was. My original problem was with the posters statement I`ll paraphrase "entertaining FOR A 25 YEAR OLD SHOW" - this implies that being old is something that Macross has to overcome or that being 25 years old is some kind of disadvantage. I would argue its actually an advantage because it was made in the `80s. There was a lot of money, creative freedom and passion in Japan at that time and it resulted in a golden age of Mecha Anime the likes of anything since have not come close to. Sure there have been a few okay shows in the last few years but nothing on the slew of greatly written and sometimes greatly animated gritty mecha war dramas from the `80s. The `80s was an undisputed Golden Age for mecha anime and to assume a show coming from it shouldn`t be entertaining because its 25 years old is laughable.

A Golden Age is not just something that older people get nostalgic about it is actually a time and a place where things were better for a certain genre for specific reasons. Sure there may be things that are great now (I don`t really know what it is? in music Electro I guess? Internet freedom and user created content is probably at a peak now that will be eroded by pay services in the future and this time will be looked upon as a Golden Age for the internet ) but if you`re arguing with me for a minute that there is more good hip hop now than in the late `80s/early `90s you can get lost right now.

[VFTF1]

if you`re arguing with me for a minute that there is more good hip hop now than in the late `80s/early `90s you can get lost right now.

I agree. Ice! Ice! Baby! was the pinnacle of the genre. Not to mention You Got Ta Pray Just Ta Make it Today! Hamma' Time!

In fact, I'm surprised any music of any genre was made after that.

...

But it is true that this is a totally off-topic theme

It comes out of nowhere, it has no impact on the plot, and it's forgotten.

Ah... but see - you make the mistake of assuming that the needs of the audience coincide with the needs of the plot. WE don't know anything about the Supervision army - true. But Exodol does. Most Zendradi probably do. The fact that we don't hear more than what we're told in Satan's Dolls and some other fragments from other episodes doesn't mean that the characters themselves don't know more than we do...

I just think that in the final analysis it wasn't really that important. Could be wrong though

Besides - it's little "holes" like this that make for great future Macross shows

Pete

[Vepariga]

I thought the Supervision Ship incident was perfectly cogent and logical. It makes sense that they'd stumble on something like that, and it also makes sense that Britai would fetch Misa to show it to her, and that ultimately after some deliberation they'd conclude that they need to focus on their primary mission rather than risk further confrontation - makes sense. It's really no more of a "tease" than the WTF-1 in Frontier

As for Milia throwing the baby - that WAS a great shot. In fact, that whole domestic scene was interesting because Hikaru seemed to be really freaked by family life; and by the baby in particular. All of the nudging done to induce Hikaru towards Misa, and he still doesn't really get it...or does he?

That's something I wonder - we've got a good explanation for Minmei's "he's my friend" line provided a few posts up by Dreamweaver, and we've analyzed Minmei's psyche a bit to understand her. Same with Misa...

But what about Hikaru?

I mean - come on - how dumb can he be? It's like episode 1 zillion of the series when he Misa decides to apologize to hium, but he comes over and chews her out and the bridge bunnies are like "Lt. Ichijo is dense." "Lt. Ichijo doesn't realize Cpt. Hayese loves him."

And as much as I hate explaining away events by way of "'cause he's stoooopid" - I fail to come up with a better reason.

Alto at least was stubborn, self-absorbed, problematic, aloof, elitist (in an artsy-fartsy kind of way), re-active (lots of what he does is just him running away/rebelling against his dad) --- but he wasn't dumb. I mean - he did notice that Ranka liked and later loved him and he cared a lot for her. He also did start developing feelings for Sheryl as soon as Sheryl stopped being a biatch to him (aka episode 3 onward)...

But Hikaru - goodness. He's dense. The ONLY time I saw him take the initiative was when he peeked in on Minmai showering.

I used to think that the problem was that Minmei confused him too much and short-circuited his impulses. He didn't know whether he was coming or going... and Misa - well... when she grabbed his hand after the Shao Pai Lon attack and asked him to stay and walk with her a while - how much more explicit did she need to be?

And she did say she prefered kissing him to Kakizake

I dunno... I don't understand Hikaru's behavior much.

Pete

haha true,hikaru was too oblivious to everything misa threw at him, not to mention the time she waited for him ALL DAY at that cafe while he had a trip to see minmay,and the envelope of photos she gave him,i mean how much do you need??