Thoughts on the SDFM aftermath episodes

[dreamweaver13]

Sigh.

This happens every friggin time I re-watch the aftermath episodes of SDFM. I am always astounded by the brilliance of the story, the writing, the production (some horribly animated episodes aside, of course), and I always plan on sharing these thoughts on MW, whose members have also probably realized what I'm about to say anyway. But this time, I'm in a writing mood, so my advanced apologies to people who have heard this all before from different people, from a different time, and repeatedly. Just bear with me on this one. And I’m warning you already, this'll be a long one.

Background

The first time I watched the show was when I was a kid, dubbed in english (but NOT as robotech). My memories about the series were vague (because, as pointed out to me by a fellow countryman, the show was aired out of broadcast sequence), but dear god, I loved it! But more than anything (yes even more than the mecha action, heaven forbid), what really caught my attention as a kid was the love triangle. My vague childhood memory, however, only remembered that hikaru and minmay were the original lovers, but hikaru and misa were the ones who ended up together. Fortunately, as a kid, I had no concept of "shipping" (at that time, who did??), so I was fine with that. There was no lingering feeling of loss, no deep understanding about the feelings involved. A love story was told, and concluded. The lovely princess met her prince charming. Case closed.

Years later while in highschool, to rekindle my love affair with macross, and to finally get a more mature understanding of the story, I resorted to watching the only version of macross available to me at that time – Robotech. Even before researching, I knew already that this was somehow different from the show I watched as a kid, but hell, I watched it all the same. And it renewed my obsession with macross.

While I liked the aftermath episodes of the robotech version, it wasn't that much more amazing than the episodes before it, storywise. It felt more like an effort to extend a profitable series, rather than a seemless ending to the show. And after SW1 (with Minmay singing that horrendous "we will win" song), I already felt that Rick and Lisa were already THE couple, the true star-crossed lovers, and minmay was just the foil, the third wheel testing the true love between rick and lisa. Annoying Minmay, playing with Rick's feelings, flirting without reason, with fleeting emotions and a fickle heart. It was almost like she was the villain of the aftermath episodes. Yes, that's what the RT version made her feel like to me (which, to this day, I consider RT's greatest sin against SDFM).

For years, I lived with this version of the aftermath episodes. It was only until much later that I was able to secure the original SDFM episodes, subtitled. And even then, it had to take several marathons of SDFM to get that RT taste out of my mouth (even now, sad to say, there is still some lingering aftertaste. Or at best, horrible memories of what wasn't). And the more I watched and re-watched SDFM, the more I realized how brilliant the aftermath episodes really were, and how these episodes really turned SDFM from a cool mecha show with a love story on the side, to one of the greatest stories about the human condition, with a love story for the ages.

The dynamics of the original triangle

What I realized when I finally brainwashed RT out of my system was that Hikaru and Minmay were the true destined, star-crossed, Romeo-and-Juliet lovers of SDFM (yes, those scenes from the top window of nyan nyan could not have been more obvious now). At one point, Hikaru really loved Minmay with all his heart (arguably from episode 5 to 33), and Minmay finally realized she also loved Hikaru at a certain point (probably episodes 32 to 36), but they just never happened to be on the same page at the exact same time. By the time Minmay was ready to commit herself to Hikaru, Hikaru was already truly confused. (From my reading of the aftermath episodes, the only time he was truly confused was after "Rainy Night". Before that, he was hand-down in love with Minmay, and he never made any effort to hide it from Misa.)

The only true time Hikaru and Minmay were on the same page, was when they were trapped under SDFM way back in episode 4. hence, Minmay's proposal in the final episode that they should go back to "that moment". (one of the most beautiful moments of the aftermath episodes, but I'll go back to that later).

But through all the signs that Hikaru and Minmay were destined for each other, the parallelism that always shows itself in the series is that Hikaru and Misa were good together. You cannot imagine one without the other. The same thing goes for Minmay and her music.

I'm not about to renew a shipping war in favor of a Hikaru-Minmay ending. Far from it. I am completely and thoroughly happy with the Hikaru-Misa ending, and I feel that it could not have gone any other way. But sometimes, the best love stories are those where the true lovers never get together in the end. Hence, when you see that these lovers go on their separate lives, albeit happily, there's a part of you that feels regret thinking about what "could have been". For me, that was the beautiful and sincerely human emotion that would not have been possible if the series had ended with "Love Drifts Away."

Realism

The thing I felt from the RT version of the aftermath was that it was already bordering on being silly and unrealistic. Rick and Lisa were already a couple, Minmay comes along, Rick digresses to a bumbling idiot that borders on being completely infantile. Rick and Lisa get together again, and seemingly renew their bond with some tea during a rainy night, minmay comes back again, and so on and so forth. It was like a silly dance with no end, and with the characters evolving and then digressing every minute.

But after watching the SDFM aftermath episodes again and again, I am amazed at how realistic the three of them behaved all throughout. This could have actually happened to any three people in the world with some attraction for each other.

It all hinged on episodes 27 (Love Drifts Away), because in that episode, Minmay told Hikaru that she couldn't return his feelings. She never led Hikaru on (like she did in RT). But at the same time, Hikaru never really stopped loving her, although he did decide to finally let go. On the premise that she had already chosen to be with Kaifun.

Two years later, Hikaru is developing a friendship with Misa, but is not ready to commit to anything more romantic because he still has feelings for Minmay. In this sense, Hikaru never led Misa on. He was just acting as a close friend. And since Misa never confessed her feelings, Hikaru continued to do so. Hikaru never had any inkling that Misa had any romantic leanings towards him (until Vanessa pointed it out in "Rainy Night"), so until then, there was nothing wrong with going to Grante city to see Minmay's concert, and to hug her passionately after rescuing her in "Broken Heart". In fact, I felt he was in the right place when he objected to being sent for the sweep-up against kamjin's retreating forces. Usually, someone else is sent to do the clean-up job, and since he never hid his feelings for minmay from misa, he naturally lashed out at her for being unreasonable and unfair. And knowing how much Misa is obsessive-compulsive about her military work, it was understandable that Hikaru completely misunderstood why Misa did it.

Hikaru's excuses ran out after "Rainy Night", since he was already vaguely aware of Misa's feelings (even though she hasn’t literally confessed yet). There was already an understanding that they were dating. And in my opinion, this is the first time Hikaru acted the jerk. But then again, don't most men act like a jerk, intentionally or not, at one point in their lives? He made a mistake (a big one). But this could also have been the first time that he realized that he would rather have spent the day with Misa than with Minmay. Deep down this may have been the point where he truly moved on from Minmay. Because when Minmay finally asked him if his feelings had changed since "Love Drifts Away", he could not answer immediately. Too bad he was caught red-handed by Misa, because his moving on from Minmay, coupled with his realization that Misa was a wonderful woman (she waited the whole day for him for chrissakes, and didn't even nag him about it!), could have meant that they were a couple right there and then, and Hikaru might not have let Minmay stay in his place in "Romanesque".

So why did he let her stay over? Well, wouldn't you? She was one of his dearest friends, and part of him still loves her; how could he say no? In Hikaru's mind, he was just helping someone out. Of course, he knew the implications (hence, he asked minmay if she thought it was a good idea for her to sleep over), but he couldn't shoo her away. Specially for the sake of someone who wouldn't even talk to him.

Misa also depicted the behavior of someone who felt strongly about a guy, but couldn't tell him yet. She had every reason to be mad whenever he was being insensitive, but enough reason to forgive him for it since she hadn't been very clear about their relationship anyway. And, in my opinion, it was perfectly reasonable that Misa was very insecure about her chances with Hikaru, considering that the greatest and most desirable superstar of post-SW1 earth was hot on his heels. She couldn't have said it better herself; what chance could she possibly have?

Finally, Minmay, far from being a petulant brat, acted perfectly like someone who may have realized her feelings for a man a bit too late. And even though she was the biggest pop star this side of Armageddon, you have to give her credit for keeping her ego in check and not assuming that Hikaru would trip over himself at a chance for a relationship with her. Even with the wine (in "Private Time"), she first blurted out some subtle hints to test the waters, before she could finally ask him if he still felt the same way about her. She didn't assume. With all her fame and her accomplishments, she was nevertheless still insecure about the woman Hikaru has been spending most of his time with.

Watching the aftermath episodes intently, with my finger on the rewind button, I couldn't find any illogical, unreasonable or out-of-this world behavior from any of the three main characters. They behaved as any human person could possibly behave in their situation and circumstances. Absent the mecha, aliens and the futuristic setting, this drama could be playing out between three people anywhere in the world, at any given moment.

Brilliant writing

Cheesy love story writers should take their cue from the aftermath episodes. While certainly lacking in big fat declarations of love, and epic Hollywood elements, the aftermath episodes paint a love story that is both subtle and poignant. The writers made good use of parallelisms, flashbacks and juxtapositions to get their message across.

One that particularly struck me was that in a span of 2 episodes (28 and 29) you have Hikaru and Minmay both asking why they are doing what they are doing. Hikaru asks why he is still in the military, and realizes that it's for the woman he loves – Minmay. Minmay, on the other hand, starts to consider why she's singing, and then she gets a flashback of the night Hikaru gave her his medal; and she probably starts to wonder if she's singing for him. Two characters, probably pining for each other, with the same set of thoughts.

Wonderful dialogues always occurred between Misa and Claudia. Rainy Night opens with Misa thinking about her fighting with Hikaru the previous night, and Claudia's lecture for her to open up was smoothly done. Claudia has always been a font of wisdom in the series, and this is moreso in the aftermath episodes whenever she talks with Misa.

Misa's dialogues with Hikaru are very natural, as though between two friends or lovers who are completely comfortable with each other. Considering the fact that both of them are not actually communicating deeply about each other's feelings, the way they talk naturally with each other is touching.

Another key moment was to finally solidify Hikaru and Misa's blossoming relationship by juxtaposing it with the flashback of Roy Fokker. While there was actually little similarity between Hikaru and Roy (who was the bigger jerk, by far), the similarity between the circumstances of Claudia and Misa are subtle, yet so profound, that you could have dismissed it.

Another particular brilliant stroke of writing is in the final episode, when Minmay finally pleads with Hikaru for them to go back to that moment in episode 4. Part marriage proposal, part plea for normalcy, this line brings the series back full circle to the very beginning of the love story. The line adds depth to the original moment in episode 4, and you realize how they were fated to be lovers from that old moment. However, you are also brought subtly into the realization (even before Misa steps in to confess) that things can never go back to that fleeting moment, no matter how wonderful and perfect it was.

Score

More than any point in the series, I think the aftermath episodes made full and perfect use of the musical score/background to depict the proper emotions at any exact point. From the melancholic music of introspection whenever Misa is alone, to the use of Minmay's songs inter-spaced between events (Misa singing Sunset Beach while getting drunk is a classic), to the sudden change of score to depict a sudden change of mood (i.e. when Misa saw the LM hearts HI on the muffler), they contributed much to the drama. And all this is punctuated by using the macross opening theme in-series for the first time, as macross lifts off in the final episode, and the final "Sayonara" sung by Minmay as the album closes. The score was, in my opinion, a masterpiece.

Final thought

For me, the aftermath episodes made the series. Would I still have loved the series without it? Certainly! Would I be obsessed with macross even without it? Probably. Would I fall deeply in love with the triangle as much as I have without it? Most certainly not. My personal opinion is that the aftermath episodes were superior in depth, writing and story-telling than the rest of the series. The meat, action and purpose of the story was in the pre-SW1 episodes. The heart of the series came afterwards. Without the aftermath episodes, I would not have this strong feeling of rightness with Hikaru and Misa holding each other and watching Minmay walk away, and I would not have this feeling of lingering regret while seeing Minmay taking one final look at the Hikaru and Misa before walking away and singing her song. The combination of these emotions made this experience wonderful, and one which I could never forget; worthy of a photo album in my mind with the words AD2012. So long.

[BeyondTheGrave]

ok.

your throwing me off there are more episodes?!

[VF5SS]

Kamjin was still a weak villain.

[Gubaba]

ok.

your throwing me off there are more episodes?!

He shouldn't be...he's talking about episodes 28~36.

And BRAVO, Dreamweaver!

I always thought the love triangle was rather messily re-opened after episode 27, but your analysis is quite plausible...and I like it.

I'll post more when I'm more coherent...

[dreamweaver13]

ok.

your throwing me off there are more episodes?!

Not at all. I'm talking about the aftermath episodes after space war 1. particularly episodes 28-36. Sorry for the misconception.

[Vepariga]

Kamjin was still a weak villain.

nah, I liked kamjin he was one of the most entertaining zentradi and gave the aftermath episodes some amusing flare, the love triangle with misa ,hikaru and minmay was very well done,and realistic,i was always curious what would happen next between them all when i first saw those episodes,i recall myself saying 'well hikaru,you messed that one up again' a few times lol.

[dreamweaver13]

Oh yeah, i forgot two more things that called out to me while watching the aftermath episodes:

The first is quite obvious. In the Satan's Dolls episode, while Hikaru was trying to convince the citizens of the city to let him take the miclonization chamber, and kaifun was egging the mob, hikaru and minmay were stealing glances at each other. Was Hikaru trying to ask MInmay to help him out with the crowd? I'm not really sure. I think it's more of Hikaru being in a hostile situation, and clinging on to the only sight that was giving him any comfort. And as for Minmay, i'm not too sure if she was already falling in love with Hikaru by then, or if she was seriously thinking of helping him out. What i'm sure of, is that at that time, they just wanted to hold each other again. A long hug, either between friends or lovers who have been separated for far too long. Sure, the imagery was a bit too psychedelic, and the addition of kaifun's face to symbolize the obstacle between them bordered on cheesy, but what I really liked about this moment is that both of them subconsciously just wanted to cling to each other, and let all other worries melt away.

The second is a bit more subtle, and required much use of my DVD player's rewind function. Normally, Hikaru and Misa would refer to each other as Ichijo and Hayase (or "major") throughout the series. Even until the last episode, even up until Misa's confession, misa called him ichijo-kun, and even when Hikaru was chasing after Misa after the bombs fell, he was shouting "major" to call out to her. It was only when kamjin's battleship crashed into Macross that Hikaru shouted out "Misa!". But looking back, every now and then, you could catch them calling each other by their first names in private. very rare instances. In "Rainy Night", when Misa was getting ready to apologize to Hikaru in the command center, but Hikaru chewed her out for being to work-oriented, Misa called him "Hikaru..." before she could even begin to apologize. In "Private Time", when Hikaru was finally able to meet up with Misa at the end of the day after standing her up, he called her "Misa".

it's as if there were moments that they were very comfortable with each other that they just naturally shift to first name basis before becoming formal again. Or when they're alone, or when they're unguarded, they just happen to call to each other by their first name (misa must have completely forgotten that vanessa was just beside her when she called him Hikaru). It's very sweet to listen to them tiptoe around that line between lovers and colleagues, that whenever you catch them calling each other by their first name, you can't help but feel that you caught a glimpse of the special bond between them.

[Kronnang Dunn]

Kamjin was still a weak villain.

NO! HOW YOU DARE? PUNY MICLONE...!!!

Edited June 16, 2009 by Kronnang Dunn

[Killer Robot]

I agree the second arc of SDFM was what really set it off as more of a mecha show. The plot of it was less driven than the first 27 episodes, and they did have to restart the love triangle, but on the other hand, the love triangle in 1-27 was really vestigal. I don't think it would have been remembered as a defining characteristic of the series if not for what was done with it in 28-36. Not to mention how the series addressed the difficulties of assimilating an alien population, and the grand plan to expand through the galaxy. The aftermath was what really gave the show more breadth and scope than just another mecha show, arguably more the whole "power of culture" thing did.

[Bri]

Thank you dreamweaver13, for a well written and thoughtfull essay on the SDFM triangle.

RT's portrayal of Minmay has done so much damage to the perception of the character. I went through the same experience, for each viewing of SDF Macross, Minmay became more and more dear to me. She much more mature and sociable in the original.

The aftermath of Macross is unique. Not a simple ending but characters that deal with the situation after the destruction of war. The dissatisfaction and hardship of the Zentradi with their new lives is surprisingly insightfull, real world events ten years later show an uncanny resemblance.

Hikaru and Minmay's relationship allows for many different interpretations. For me they represent a first love when everything is new. Their older and sadder counterparts cling to their memories of the past and a happier, simpler time. A bitter sweet experience as they both lead such different lives and have grown apart. For Misa Hikaru reprents a new way, a new future after a life spent in service of the military and the destruction it brought. A shared past versus a shared future.

[taksraven]

Kamjin was a weak main villain.

Just fixed up your statement. He was a fine villain when he was forced to be subordinate to others.

Taksraven

[Mercurial Morpheus]

Great observations. The post war arc takes a lot of greif from fans. It's mildly understand. Writing 101 basically dictates that once the problem is solved, you end the show. 27 does wrap up just about everything. But that's why I love the post arc, because nearly every show ends right there too. It's refreshing to see the aftermath, to know that not everything was hunky-doory. When you have a situation where the Earth is desolate (another awesome thing about Macross, they actually go through with it), it does allow plenty of fodder for more material.

I'm sort of like you in that I went into the arc with Robotech (though only the first three). Force of Arms did alter the triangle setup going into it. It cut Hikaru's confession. I find it interesting that this was done. Maybe it was done to try to "patch" the reopen feeling it sort of has in Macross that Gubaba mentioned (though I was highly amused to see it cut back in with the remaster, creating a plot hole in Rick's dialogue that's just hilarious and showed how much of a milk job that was). It did change the feel of some things in the process, particularly the finality of it. So I can get that point of view. Even I was a bit amazed at Hikaru's obliviousness. I'm not sure where I'm going here at this hour.

As for Kamjin as a weak main villian, I think he played the part well, epitomizing how not everyone can let go of things so easily. He bought into the culture thing a bit, but in the end enjoyed war too much. It was a better end for him then just the "Screw it, lets join in with the humans because I really don't care" in 27 (though that still worked).

The post arc added so much to defining the series and setting up the sequels. It explained some many details and fleshed things out. I love Rainy Night for the humanity it helps instill in Roy. Learning that the womanizing and such was part of how he coped did add a new dimension to him. It did help the triangle, though I perhaps didn't realise how much so until you post. Great read.

[VFTF1]

Excellent essay and great observations.

I would add only that I always looked upon the relationship between Misa and Hikaru through the prism of Exodol's statement to Breetai early in the series: "It is said that when a man and a woman are together, tragedy follows."

Part of the reason for the Zendradi's rejection of culture, and part of the reason for the failure of the Protoculture and its' decline into self-destructive warfare was precisely the fact that love amongst men and women is NOT easy and culture is not some fiat magical solution to the problems of the human condition.

Misa, who lost Riber early on, and who - like the Zendradi - was reared in a military tradition - is a perfect example of the struggle that humans are faced with insofar as love goes; and her struggle with Hikaru is a kind of mini-exposition on the problems that the protoculture had in the most basic and private setting.

So, in that sense, I always see the love story as complementing the overall political teaching of Macross.

Pete

[Rbstr]

I really enjoy the post war arc.

You rarely ever get to see what happily ever after ends up being. Yeah, it's quite a bit less epic in terms of action but its certainly something I'm glad was produced, that series is better for it.

[Fadooski]

I, too, love the last ten episodes of SFDM ("season 2" as it were) because it allowed for some of the most understated mature writing in the macross franchise. The Misa/Hikaru/Minmei triangle is so good because the various relationships shift over the course of the series. The writers did an amazing job of carelfully setting up the characterization and motivations of everyone involved so that the audience is absolutely clear about where each oerson is coming from. There is no bad guy here, just three poeple trying to live their lives the best they can an move forward from immeasurable tragedy.

As for Kamjin, I thought of him as an element of chaos threatening the fragile attempts at rebuilding post Space War I. He represents the violence and instability at the heart of all Zentradi as well as the human capacity for conflict. He also show us that not all Zentradi are the same and thata the power of culture (as represented by Minei's songs) has it's limits. He's not a 'Big Bad' so much as an unpleasant warning that even when you think the worst is over, it often isn't.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Fadooski

[dreamweaver13]

Thanks guys for taking the time to read my lengthy "dissertation". and i appreciate the feedback.

It's nice to know that there are a lot of others here who like the second arc of the series. an "aftermath" arc could very well be an endangered species in anime, or even in the macross franchise, so SDFM's last 9 episodes could be the last of its kind. i think it'll be hard to reproduce that kind of "magic" between characters even after the climax of the story.

[BeyondTheGrave]

Not at all. I'm talking about the aftermath episodes after space war 1. particularly episodes 28-36. Sorry for the misconception.

ahhhhhh. you had wondering if i had missed something.

[dreamweaver13]

Excellent essay and great observations.

I would add only that I always looked upon the relationship between Misa and Hikaru through the prism of Exodol's statement to Breetai early in the series: "It is said that when a man and a woman are together, tragedy follows."

Part of the reason for the Zendradi's rejection of culture, and part of the reason for the failure of the Protoculture and its' decline into self-destructive warfare was precisely the fact that love amongst men and women is NOT easy and culture is not some fiat magical solution to the problems of the human condition.

Misa, who lost Riber early on, and who - like the Zendradi - was reared in a military tradition - is a perfect example of the struggle that humans are faced with insofar as love goes; and her struggle with Hikaru is a kind of mini-exposition on the problems that the protoculture had in the most basic and private setting.

Quite interesting that you said that, because Misa said relatively the same thing in "Satan's Dolls". After finding out that the zentraedi were created by the protoculture specifically for warfare, Misa told Hikaru (in another one of those unguarded moments between them) that they were just like the zentraedi -- "we're always fighting".

[dreamweaver13]

As for Kamjin, I thought of him as an element of chaos threatening the fragile attempts at rebuilding post Space War I. He represents the violence and instability at the heart of all Zentradi as well as the human capacity for conflict. He also show us that not all Zentradi are the same and thata the power of culture (as represented by Minei's songs) has it's limits. He's not a 'Big Bad' so much as an unpleasant warning that even when you think the worst is over, it often isn't.

I agree. The irony of it is that he was the most human of them all. While everyone else was swept away by the currents of culture, peace, love and music, Kamjin represented what humans have been like all throughout their existence before SW1 - prone to fighting and violence, but capable of deep passion and emotion (with laplamiz).

[mickyg]

Excellent writeup! Couldn't have put it better, had I tried.

I also had experienced the RT side of this in all its fullness but unlike you, growing up in the US, that was my only exposure to the series as a kid. I must've been 6 or 7 years old. Unfortunately, I also read all the Jack McKinney novels (and I mean all of 'em!) as a teenager and that so permanently solidified my mental image of this universe that it's taken almost 20 years and re-immersing myself in Macross to allow me to even think of a different story line! Don't flame me, but I actually loved the novels! The "unfortunately" statement is because they were so easy to read and so easy to get involved with that it was hard not to imagine things from the perspective of the two that co-authored the books.

So anyway, going back to my childhood, I always had a thing for Lisa, er Misa and my friends always liked Minmay. As I recall, I liked her from episode 1 even! It was the first cartoon that I can remember actually having a lasting effect on me, long after they stopped showing them on the TV stations I had available to me.

I'm only just now starting to re-watch SDFM in its original format, with English subs. I'm only up to about episode 10 so there's far more to get into. It's great how a series more than 25 years old still can entertain so well!

Edited June 17, 2009 by mickyg

[dreamweaver13]

Excellent writeup! Couldn't have put it better, had I tried.

I also had experienced the RT side of this in all its fullness but unlike you, growing up in the US, that was my only exposure to the series as a kid. I must've been 6 or 7 years old. Unfortunately, I also read all the Jack McKinney novels (and I mean all of 'em!) as a teenager and that so permanently solidified my mental image of this universe that it's taken almost 20 years and re-immersing myself in Macross to allow me to even think of a different story line! Don't flame me, but I actually loved the novels! The "unfortunately" statement is because they were so easy to read and so easy to get involved with that it was hard not to imagine things from the perspective of the two that co-authored the books.

So anyway, going back to my childhood, I always had a thing for Lisa, er Misa and my friends always liked Minmay. As I recall, I liked her from episode 1 even! It was the first cartoon that I can remember actually having a lasting effect on me, long after they stopped showing them on the TV stations I had available to me.

I'm only just now starting to re-watch SDFM in its original format, with English subs. I'm only up to about episode 10 so there's far more to get into. It's great how a series more than 25 years old still can entertain so well!

hehe. yup i read em all too. even up to "end of the circle". hence, it was even more difficult to wash away. sometimes i would be watching SDFM and i would remember some tidbit from the mckinney novels.

Have fun with your SDFM viewing.

[MilSpex]

It's great how a series more than 25 years old still can entertain so well!

why o why do people these days believe old is equal to bad??!

[Gubaba]

why o why do people these days believe old is equal to bad??!

Ah, teenagers throughout the history of the world have believed that. They'll get over it.

[VFTF1]

Ah, teenagers throughout the history of the world have believed that. They'll get over it.

Yep. And that's the main point of the Macross Saga: Old Cougars are far preferable to little whiney girls.

Pete

[MilSpex]

Ah, teenagers throughout the history of the world have believed that. They'll get over it.

Yeah it seems to be a basic assumption that anything (especially anime) produced a long time ago must be poor quality and if something old is entertaining its like a big suprise to them. Like people didn`t have any skills or passion before computers were used to make animation and movies.

And you can count me at least as someone who thoroughly appreciated older stuff as a teenager. My favorite movies then were stuff like Dr Strangelove, The Dirty Dozen and the Drunken Master series, all of which came before my time (I was a teenager in the `90s). I could recite this quote from Dr Strangelove word for word. I was a weird kid:

Well, boys, I reckon this is it - nuclear combat toe to toe with the Roosskies. Now look, boys, I ain't much of a hand at makin' speeches, but I got a pretty fair idea that something doggone important is goin' on back there. And I got a fair idea the kinda personal emotions that some of you fellas may be thinkin'. Heck, I reckon you wouldn't even be human bein's if you didn't have some pretty strong personal feelin's about nuclear combat. I want you to remember one thing, the folks back home is a-countin' on you and by golly, we ain't about to let 'em down. I tell you something else, if this thing turns out to be half as important as I figure it just might be, I'd say that you're all in line for some important promotions and personal citations when this thing's over with. That goes for ever' last one of you regardless of your race, color or your creed. Now let's get this thing on the hump - we got some flyin' to do.

[dreamweaver13]

Yeah it seems to be a basic assumption that anything (especially anime) produced a long time ago must be poor quality and if something old is entertaining its like a big suprise to them. Like people didn`t have any skills or passion before computers were used to make animation and movies.

And you can count me at least as someone who thoroughly appreciated older stuff as a teenager. My favorite movies then were stuff like Dr Strangelove, The Dirty Dozen and the Drunken Master series, all of which came before my time (I was a teenager in the `90s). I could recite this quote from Dr Strangelove word for word. I was a weird kid:

haha. i'm gonna give mickyg the benefit of the doubt on this one. he did say that it was "great", not that it was "surprising" or "unbelievable".

I'm suddenly getting the defensive old-man vibe from you guys.

[MilSpex]

haha. i'm gonna give mickyg the benefit of the doubt on this one. he did say that it was "great", not that it was "surprising" or "unbelievable".

I'm suddenly getting the defensive old-man vibe from you guys.

No but he made a point of saying it was great FOR A 25 YEAR OLD SHOW. Like the fact it was 25 years old is somehow a disadvantage. Why does he asssume theres ANY corellation between age and greatness? If anything its the REVERSE > Older shows are better than newer ones with more creativity. Perhaps what he meant to say was "just another great old show."

[VFTF1]

Back to the love topic for a moment - something that is often lost is how Hikaru has been shaped by women. Prior to Minmey, he was just a guy who liked flying and could do acrobatic stunts pretty well. When he got stuck on the Macross, he hastily fixed up his fan jet and invited Minmey to go back to Earth with him - he wanted no part in the war, or in the insanity - he just wanted to go back to his regular civilian life. Even after that became impossible due to the Pluto-fold, Hikaru still "mopped" about, as Roy would put it. He was extremely jealous and upset overhearing Minmey talking to pilots and calling Hikaru a "friend" and denying that anything romantic had transpired between them, and later on, he yelled at her when Minmey countered his "I might die if I join the military" with "it's the same for all the other soldiers who come to the restaurant." Hikaru yelled "so I'm just like them to you?"

In the end, he joined up - for all the wrong reasons as it turned out, and ended up finding new friends and becoming more acquainted with Misa.

This is often the case in life - you choose a path because of reasons that very quickly prove to be illusory and wrong, but you get stuck on the path and suddenly are surprised to find something you didn't expect.

What Hikaru didn't expect was to find a woman that would love him as he was. I think one of the best illustrations of Misa's love was when Hikaru was about to sorty (again) and made some whiny complaint to Misa (as usual) and she didn't respond at all. Claudia said something like "are you going to let him get away talking to an officer like that?" and Misa said, with a smile, "I've gotten used to it. I don't mind. I kind of like it." This was a very tender moment, in my view, because it showed how fond Misa was of Hikaru as a person - of how Hikaru acted, behaived and thought. I think she appreciated his gallantry - even though it was usually couched in complaints.

On the other hand, Misa did NOTHING to awaken Hikaru's jalousy or to confuse his emotions - something Minmey constantly did. This included, on Misa's part, being able to forgive the scarf incident, wait for him all day, to not make a scene at his house when she overheard that Minmey was saying, and to gracefully come say goodbye to Hikaru upon being appointed to lead a new colony into the stars by Global.

And then, as if to "solve" the love triangle for us, events AGAIN intervene - turning reason on its' head. Misa thought she would leave Earth and Hikaru and Minmei would stay together. But Kamjin attacks, and Hikaru must make a split second choice: is he a pilot or is he a civilian? In making his choice, he also chooses for Minmei - implicitly telling her: "you're the Songstress of the Galaxy" and denying to her the life of a domesticized woman.

In the end, it's not at all clear that Hikaru "decided" to be with Misa as much as it is clear he had BECOME a pilot and would stay one, and that he was LOVED by Misa ALL THE TIME rather than SOMETIMES (as was the case with Minmei) - and ultimately what guy wouldn't stay with a girl who was good to him ALL THE TIME (Misa) in favor of a girl who was capable of getting him to quit the military, change his life ... and on the very next day might very well say "sorry, I changed my mind. I'm going back to Kaifun. Bye!"

I don't see it as choice. Maybe I speak from my personal experience here - but I have a feeling us guys respond best to stability and continuity. When I think about my relationship to my girlfriend, who breaks up with me about once every two weeks and has done this for 5 years now, I come to realize two things: a) other than this strange fault, she is flawless and no new bad things about her ever emerged, b) considering how many times I cheated on her, got way too drunk, turned my back on her, was mean to her, yelled at her - she's done a fine job of being forgiving and really other than the completey predictable and systematic "I hate you! I don't want to be with you....no wait! Come back! I love you!" which takes place on average once every two weeks (the severity of this also varies) - all in all she is without a fault and even this minor pain is bearable because by now after five years it's just become so utterly predictable.

My point here, though, is that I know for myself that I didn't really "choose" to be with my current girlfriend. We just kind of ended up together - and it's really odd when I think about it. There was lots going on in our lives when we met and lots of apprehension from both of us because we'd been burned in previous relationships - but things just kind of fell into place... mainly because there was stability and continuity in how we behaved towards one another. She got used to by flaws, I got used to hers. And the positive things in our daily lives way outstripped the negatives (after all - the time in between the break ups was always filled with lots of joy )...

So - I'm kinda thinking this is what "won" Hikaru over to Misa - the fact that she did nothing to toy with his emotions, giving him a sense of stability that Minmei couldn't. This was because, ultimately, she was a mature woman who was able to internalize her own pain out of love for Hikaru. If Minmei could do that, then she might have had a shot at Hikaru - but she couldn't.

Err... in either case - this has always struck me as one of the things that makes the love story so tender - it's not this simplified "take me!" "no, me!" - it's got lots of depth to it and a good understanding of male/female psychology.

Pete

[Killer Robot]

No but he made a point of saying it was great FOR A 25 YEAR OLD SHOW. Like the fact it was 25 years old is somehow a disadvantage. Why does he asssume theres ANY corellation between age and greatness? If anything its the REVERSE > Older shows are better than newer ones with more creativity. Perhaps what he meant to say was "just another great old show."

Animation techniques, production values, even the basics of storytelling in an animated television medium - these are all things that evolve over time, and new works build upon both good and bad lessons of the old. Quite apart from this, any work is a product of its culture and era, its references and topics and storytelling conventions, and time changes the audience. So is age a handicap for a TV show to work against? Absolutely! There are a lot of old shows, like works in any other medium, that stand the test of time better than others. These are the classics that people will keep coming back to. Even then, classics are often enjoyed strictly in context of their era. As television sci-fi goes, original Star Trek is a widely loved classic, but I think few would seriously claim that a new show written, acted, and presented just as those old episodes were would be well-received.

People also forget how many older shows didn't last through the years. Chances are the old stuff you like is very best of breed - you might follow just a couple works from a given decade. If the playlist on a classic rock station seems to be of better quality than that on a modern pop station, that's in large part because it's sampling the best over a twenty year range as opposed to mostly songs from the last year - a lot of the songs those classics once shared airtime with are long forgotten and for good reason.

Then of course there's nostalgia factor. Like many old friends from childhood, people tend to give free passes to their old favorites when they start to look less fresh. On the other hand, those too young to remember something might find the "retro" experience really fresh and novel and so get caught up in it more than the new things that, to them, are familiar enough to breed contempt. To go of what Gubaba said, I've known lots of teenagers assuming old stuff is all bad, but I've known a lot (especially in geeky circles) who get totally caught up in retro fads and period interests - and are prone to get over the giddy excitement in the same time frame as their peers their peers become less enslaved to new fads and current interests.

Myself? I never saw SDFM until it was 20 years old. Not even as Robotech. I enjoyed it quite a lot - in some ways I had to judge it in awareness of its age, but it's definitely a series that deserves to be called a classic. As opposed to some things I knew and liked as a child and now would find painful even with the nostalgic memories they bring.

In short, age in art especially in newer media is a handicap. Perhaps not as much as it is for many technological fields, but it still is. On the other hand, doesn't that make a series that still is good after so many years all the more impressive?

[Bri]

[...]

What Hikaru didn't expect was to find a woman that would love him as he was. I think one of the best illustrations of Misa's love was when Hikaru was about to sorty (again) and made some whiny complaint to Misa (as usual) and she didn't respond at all. Claudia said something like "are you going to let him get away talking to an officer like that?" and Misa said, with a smile, "I've gotten used to it. I don't mind. I kind of like it." This was a very tender moment, in my view, because it showed how fond Misa was of Hikaru as a person - of how Hikaru acted, behaived and thought. I think she appreciated his gallantry - even though it was usually couched in complaints.

On the other hand, Misa did NOTHING to awaken Hikaru's jalousy or to confuse his emotions - something Minmey constantly did. This included, on Misa's part, being able to forgive the scarf incident, wait for him all day, to not make a scene at his house when she overheard that Minmey was saying, and to gracefully come say goodbye to Hikaru upon being appointed to lead a new colony into the stars by Global.

And then, as if to "solve" the love triangle for us, events AGAIN intervene - turning reason on its' head. Misa thought she would leave Earth and Hikaru and Minmei would stay together. But Kamjin attacks, and Hikaru must make a split second choice: is he a pilot or is he a civilian? In making his choice, he also chooses for Minmei - implicitly telling her: "you're the Songstress of the Galaxy" and denying to her the life of a domesticized woman.

In the end, it's not at all clear that Hikaru "decided" to be with Misa as much as it is clear he had BECOME a pilot and would stay one, and that he was LOVED by Misa ALL THE TIME rather than SOMETIMES (as was the case with Minmei) - and ultimately what guy wouldn't stay with a girl who was good to him ALL THE TIME (Misa) in favor of a girl who was capable of getting him to quit the military, change his life ... and on the very next day might very well say "sorry, I changed my mind. I'm going back to Kaifun. Bye!"

[...]

Pete

Interesting comparison you make between Misa and Minmay. Question is how much this difference is due to personality and not age. Minmay is still a teenager throughout SDFM and has the typical fickle and selfcentered mindset of that age. Misa is in her early 20s and has learned through personal tragedies that life is not all about ones self. Still Minmay is not incapable of compassion either, for example she notices that Hikaru is down and asks Roy to tallk to him. Signs she does deeply care for Hikaru. The choice between Minmay and Misa is mainly between girl and woman, not so much between their characters.

As a small side step. I've always seen Cathy as a cruel joke on Misa. Cathy is a more ambitious and confident version of Misa but without the compassion. Resulting her in dumping her pilot boyfriend for the faster rising political star. Makes me wonder which is the more realistic version and if there is some bitterness of the writers involved.

[VFTF1]

As a small side step. I've always seen Cathy as a cruel joke on Misa. Cathy is a more ambitious and confident version of Misa but without the compassion. Resulting her in dumping her pilot boyfriend for the faster rising political star. Makes me wonder which is the more realistic version and if there is some bitterness of the writers involved.

I disagree. I think Cathy and Misa have the exact same character traits - it's just they are manifested differently: Both Cathy and Misa are ambitious and confident insofar as their professional life goes - most importantly; both of them push their femininity to the side in favor of their professional ambitions and have trouble as women, less so as officers. Cathy's affair with Leon is not, IMO, the result of her dumping her pilot boyfriend for a rising political star. Her father is the President of the Macross Frontier Colony. Leon has NO political clout AT ALL outside of being an aide to his father. Leon only gains political clout after his coup d'etate by speaking directly to the peoples' fear of the Vajra - but before his aims became clear; he was just Cathy's Dad's advisor.

I think the only reason Cathy was with him is because Leon made her feel like he loved her by showering her with attention. Ozma DIDN'T. Ozma wasn't the kind of guy to fall all over Cathy, and he often let it be known that other things in life (like his job) mattered to him as well. In this sense, Cathy is a victim to her womanly weakness. Insofar as men can be blamed for being irrational when erotically aroused - so the same can be said for women; although it works a bit differently. Leon showers Cathy with the attention she needs - Leon is always around. Leon works for her dad so they probably get to see eachother everyday - and Leon doesn't have to go out on assignments or be far away from Cathy for long spans of time.

I don't think the reasons for her dumping Ozma and being with Leon go any further than that. As for Leon - it's obvious he got close to Cathy to have another ace up his sleeze for his political ambitions - being with the President's daughter must guarantee some kind of lucrative future, coup or no coup.

But this doesn't mean Cathy didn't have compassion. I mean - she's clearly devastated by her father's assasination. That she's jealous of Ozma being concerned over Ranka is not so much a sign of her lack of compassion as it is a sign of her pent up need for adoration - a trait inherent in most beautiful women.

Misa dealt with the same problems - only somewhat different. First - she had the good fortune of being under the command of Captian Global who, while (IMO) very fond of her, never took advantage of her like Leon took advantage of Cathy. Second, while she loved her Dad and was loyal to her heritage, she had the intro-spection necessary to notice early on how similar she was to Zendradi culture and to tear up her dad's letter requesting she leave the Macross - because she was gallant. This is the same gallantry which led to her almost suicide on Mars - as an act of fealty towards the memory of her first (and at that point only) love - Riber.

But Cathy does come around - once she discovers Leon's plot and once she realizes Ozma still has feelings for her - in other words - once she notices that the world doesn't revolve around her, and in that dangerous world there are men like Ozma who love her and do good and men like Leon who use her and do bad - she makes the right choice and does a lot to help everyone.

Bobby even notices how sensitive she is - he's probably the only one who sees beneath the crusty exterior - thus when he places his hand on her shoulder and says "how you must have suffered" - Cathy's face goes very very melancholy and said - as if for a moment someone (Bobby) let her finally breathe and say "yes - I suffered too." -

I think the difference you're seeing between Misa and Cathy is a surface difference largely caused by Cathy being a second string character in Frontier while Misa was clearly the main character in Macross - well - one of the mainest main characters

Pete

[Bri]

I disagree. I think Cathy and Misa have the exact same character traits - it's just they are manifested differently: Both Cathy and Misa are ambitious and confident insofar as their professional life goes - most importantly; both of them push their femininity to the side in favor of their professional ambitions and have trouble as women, less so as officers. Cathy's affair with Leon is not, IMO, the result of her dumping her pilot boyfriend for a rising political star. Her father is the President of the Macross Frontier Colony. Leon has NO political clout AT ALL outside of being an aide to his father. Leon only gains political clout after his coup d'etate by speaking directly to the peoples' fear of the Vajra - but before his aims became clear; he was just Cathy's Dad's advisor.

[...]

I think the difference you're seeing between Misa and Cathy is a surface difference largely caused by Cathy being a second string character in Frontier while Misa was clearly the main character in Macross - well - one of the mainest main characters

Pete

I would disagree. Cathy cites Leon's ambition as his main quality unlike Ozma's who lives for flying and his sister. In honesty Cathy is in many ways more like Minmay, immature, self confidant, selfish, she even took part in a MissMacross contest. The fact she realises that Ozma is a good guy is more of a sign of growing up then anything else. Just shows that age and maturity are not the same thing. As a good Macross character she comes to see the folly of her ways and turns around. Misa has a far stricter code of honor. Not really suprising as Misa has been raised by a soldier in stead of a politician

It was a theme in Frontier to make members of the cast look like a character from (or have a similar role as in) SDFM but has the character traits of another. Clearly Michael is portayed as Max but has Roy's character. Similarly Ranka plays Minmay but has Hikaru's personality. Cathy looks like Misa but has Minmays traits. Klan is Micheal's Millia but is really Claudia.

[mickyg]

haha. i'm gonna give mickyg the benefit of the doubt on this one. he did say that it was "great", not that it was "surprising" or "unbelievable".

I'm suddenly getting the defensive old-man vibe from you guys.

Thanks! I'm 31 so definitely not a young whipper snapper that is at all "Surprised" as you've rightly pointed out. Yeah, I did say great. If anything, I am suprised that something that was marketed to kids (in the states at least) had such a well written and rich storyline. Just proves that it was not originally written for kids! Or maybe that's too big an assumption. That's probably what I should have conveyed a bit better.

Of course, this comment was a page ago so could now be moot!

Ok, one last edit - just read the rest of the comments.

What I should have said is that I'm surprised that my 6/7 year old brain could see this series as something really special when I was that age and here I am, now over 30 and I can still see it as something special. Why can't new stuff be this good? Then again, when was the last time I sat down to watch a saturday morning cartoon? Honestly, I don't think we've had anything this good as something marketed to children since. I used to be a massive Transformers cartoon fan too, but the story line there was nowhere near as "real" as what we see in Macross. Ignoring the giants and unbelievable technology of course!

Does that help or have I dug myself an even bigger hole?

Edited June 17, 2009 by mickyg

[Mercurial Morpheus]

Nice writeups on Cathy, Bri/VFTF-1. I mostly saw her as an interesting character that was sadly a bit neglected in development (like a lot of the side characters in Frontier unfortunately). Nice to see some fresh perspectives. She tends to get forgotten.

[VFTF1]

Cathy cites Leon's ambition as his main quality unlike Ozma's who lives for flying and his sister.

Are you sure about that? I recall that it was Ozma who cited Leon's ambitions as the quality Cathy prefered over a man who lives for flying and his sister - those were Ozma's words - not Cathy's - in episode 17.

Cathy is in many ways more like Minmay, immature, self confidant, selfish, she even took part in a MissMacross contest.

I agree with this, but it goes hand in hand with my "character faults of beautiful women" line of thought... perhaps I should add "of self aware beautiful women" since Misa seemed not to be aware of her beauty and therefore had no vanity...

Misa has a far stricter code of honor. Not really suprising as Misa has been raised by a soldier in stead of a politician

Good point - although Misa's father was a politician as well; nevermind the "Admiral" rank. He sat on the "board" or whatever that thing was - it was pretty clear the high command of UN Spacey were running the show rather than suit-n-tie wearing politicians like the one we saw in episode 1. As far as I could understand it, UN Spacey's Military staged a coup and took power from the UN government as such - at least this much was clear looking at all the uniformed military men who Misa and Global reported too. Global said that they were "politicians" which to me meant that they were in power rather than being military men who answered to civilian leaders.

But yeah - you do detect a greater nobility in Misa as opposed to Cathy and this could have something to do with the differences between an honorable military family upbringing and a presumably spoiled political family upbringing...

It was a theme in Frontier to make members of the cast look like a character from (or have a similar role as in) SDFM but has the character traits of another. Clearly Michael is portayed as Max but has Roy's character. Similarly Ranka plays Minmay but has Hikaru's personality. Cathy looks like Misa but has Minmays traits. Klan is Micheal's Millia but is really Claudia.

Well - you state the obvious - but it's so seldom stated, and when it is stated it's often done as a complaint along the lines of "this is all just a rehash of what was" instead of seeing it as a virtue; a kind of feint game of "what if?"

Still - I wouldn't go so totally far as to say that Cathy has Minmei's traits. If anything her story is a more tragic variation on Misa's - at least in terms of how she starts off.

Plus - Cathy didn't have the equivalent of Claudia around to help out in the men department

Pete