Kawamori interview 1998

[Einherjar]

Macross II is a fiction based movie created by a fictional character within a fictional dramatization of actual events. OR

Macross II is a real move based on nothing real. I dunno, just having fun with this.

For me, it's easier to think of Macross II as an in-universe sequel film to DYRL made by a cast and crew trying to repeat the success other people had with DYRL. Unfortunately, it didn't go well in-universe either, leading some of its elements to be mocked by the time of Macross 7.

...wait...

EDIT - Now I remember. I see it based on a declassified war game scenario evaluating potential weaknesses in the U.N. Spacy's planetary defense strategy for territories. It was eventually turned into a movie.

Edited September 15, 2009 by Einherjar

[Soukou]

The TV series is real.

Is that really so? If Kawamori said they're all fictional, then there is no exception.

[Gubaba]

Is that really so? If Kawamori said they're all fictional, then there is no exception.

You might want to look at the rest of the post you quoted, instead of just taking one line out of context.

To wit:

Well, if that [i.e. Kawamori's "all is fictional" idea] doesn't work for you, you can always go the Macross Chronicle route: The TV series is real. Do You Remember Love is a movie. Exsedol looks the way he does in Macross 7 because he reconfigured his body sometime in the 2020s.

So yeah, according to Macross Chronicle and all official Macross timelines, the TV series is real. Kawamori's idea contradicts that, of course.

You pays your money and you takes your choice.

[Soukou]

You might want to look at the rest of the post you quoted, instead of just taking one line out of context.

To wit:

So yeah, according to Macross Chronicle and all official Macross timelines, the TV series is real. Kawamori's idea contradicts that, of course.

You pays your money and you takes your choice.

But taking lines out of context is more fun. Anyway, seems like Macross Chronicle has some inconsistencies, so it's a quite difficult matter to decide.

[Gubaba]

But taking lines out of context is more fun. Anyway, seems like Macross Chronicle has some inconsistencies, so it's a quite difficult matter to decide.

Is there a single source of Macross continuity that DOESN'T have inconsistencies...?

[VFTF1]

We need to also be careful to distinguish between consistence inconsistencies and inconsistent inconsistencies.

If a source other than the anime is consistent in its' presentation of the anime's inconsistencies, then the inconsistencies of said source are consistent with the anime's inconsistencies, and therefore the source IS consistent despite its' inconsistencies, since those inconcistencies are consistent with the anime's inconsistencies.

However, if a source other than the anime is inconsistent in its' presentation of the anime's inconsistencies, then it has introduced a new layer of inconsistencies that is not consistent with the inconsistencies of the original anime, and therefore said source is truly inconsistent not because it's simply inconsistent but because its' inconsistency varies gravely from the inconsistencies of Macross itself.

Pete

[sketchley]

We need to also be careful to distinguish between consistence inconsistencies and inconsistent inconsistencies.

If a source other than the anime is consistent in its' presentation of the anime's inconsistencies, then the inconsistencies of said source are consistent with the anime's inconsistencies, and therefore the source IS consistent despite its' inconsistencies, since those inconcistencies are consistent with the anime's inconsistencies.

However, if a source other than the anime is inconsistent in its' presentation of the anime's inconsistencies, then it has introduced a new layer of inconsistencies that is not consistent with the inconsistencies of the original anime, and therefore said source is truly inconsistent not because it's simply inconsistent but because its' inconsistency varies gravely from the inconsistencies of Macross itself.

Pete

Makes perfect sense. (Said seriously).

Though, in reading your post, I have to ask: are you a former writer of "Monty Python"? (Said unseriously).

[VFTF1]

I wish I were...

Pete

[Zinjo]

We need to also be careful to distinguish between consistence inconsistencies and inconsistent inconsistencies.

If a source other than the anime is consistent in its' presentation of the anime's inconsistencies, then the inconsistencies of said source are consistent with the anime's inconsistencies, and therefore the source IS consistent despite its' inconsistencies, since those inconcistencies are consistent with the anime's inconsistencies.

However, if a source other than the anime is inconsistent in its' presentation of the anime's inconsistencies, then it has introduced a new layer of inconsistencies that is not consistent with the inconsistencies of the original anime, and therefore said source is truly inconsistent not because it's simply inconsistent but because its' inconsistency varies gravely from the inconsistencies of Macross itself.

Pete

What about a Pointed Stick?

[Zinjo]

You might want to look at the rest of the post you quoted, instead of just taking one line out of context.

To wit:

So yeah, according to Macross Chronicle and all official Macross timelines, the TV series is real. Kawamori's idea contradicts that, of course.

You pays your money and you takes your choice.

Ahhh, but what is real?

The events of series or the detail of the series?

The broad events are proported as real, however was Hikaru Ichijo really a former stunt flyer who became a Valk ace or was he just a valkyrie ace who was given dramatic treatment? Those are the questions that I believe Kawamori is raising about the productions.

We know the events of the WW2 movie "Valkyrie" are historical fact, but was every dramatic detail in the script real or there for effect? Film stories are formatted to move forward through conflict, whether real or imagined.

Kawamori is essentially saying that the Macross productions are like "Saving Private Ryan", "The Longest Day", "Letters from Iwo Jima", "Flags of our Fathers", etc... The historical events are true, but the dramatic details of those films may not be.

Prior to Macross Zero, there was no VF-0, only the VF-X and the VF-1. Now there is. In future productions, I suspect there will be more "unrevealed" history in the universe. Personally, I welcome it.

I welcome the notion that I don't have to accept Super Basara they way he was portrayed in Mac 7 or the cartoonish way the PD were presented.

Exedol looks the way he looks, the differences between SDFM and subsequent series. tend to favor the DYRL appearance. The most consistent version to date is the throbbing brain headed look. We can accept that the Exedol in SDFM was a sanitized version so as not to offend sensitive TV viewers. IMO, it is reasonably plausible.

Kawamori could easily state officially that the SDFM TV series was based on the "Macross" historical novels by Eiji Kurokawa. Essentially that would punctuate his point that the series is not to be taken as a canonical historical record of SW1. Much like the "True Blood" tv series is based on the Sookie Stackhouse or Southern Vampires novels by Charlaine Harris...

The question is not, "Did SW1 happen?", but more along the lines of "How much of what has been presented, historically did happen they way we've been shown?" Similar questions could be asked of Macross Plus, Mac 7, etc...

Edited January 22, 2010 by Zinjo

[Gubaba]

Ahhh, but what is real?

The events of series or the detail of the series?

The broad events are proported as real, however was Hikaru Ichijo really a former stunt flyer who became a Valk ace or was he just a valkyrie ace who was given dramatic treatment? Those are the questions that I believe Kawamori is raising about the productions.

We know the events of the WW2 movie "Valkyrie" are historical fact, but was every dramatic detail in the script real or there for effect? Film stories are formatted to move forward through conflict, whether real or imagined.

Kawamori is essentially saying that the Macross productions are like "Saving Private Ryan", "The Longest Day", "Letters from Iwo Jima", "Flags of our Fathers", etc... The historical events are true, but the dramatic details of those films may not be.

Prior to Macross Zero, there was no VF-0, only the VF-X and the VF-1. Now there is. In future productions, I suspect there will be more "unrevealed" history in the universe. Personally, I welcome it.

I welcome the notion that I don't have to accept Super Basara they way he was portrayed in Mac 7 or the cartoonish way the PD were presented.

Exedol looks the way he looks, the differences between SDFM and subsequent series. tend to favor the DYRL appearance. The most consistent version to date is the throbbing brain headed look. We can accept that the Exedol in SDFM was a sanitized version so as not to offend sensitive TV viewers. IMO, it is reasonably plausible.

Kawamori could easily state officially that the SDFM TV series was based on the "Macross" historical novels by Eiji Kurokawa. Essentially that would punctuate his point that the series is not to be taken as a canonical historical record of SW1. Much like the "True Blood" tv series is based on the Sookie Stackhouse or Southern Vampires novels by Charlaine Harris...

The question is not, "Did SW1 happen?", but more along the lines of "How much of what has been presented, historically did happen they way we've been shown?" Similar questions could be asked of Macross Plus, Mac 7, etc...

Yes. I understand that that's what Kawamori is saying. I said as much a page or two back.

[Zinjo]

Yes. I understand that that's what Kawamori is saying. I said as much a page or two back.

You know I don't read your posts...

[Gubaba]

You know I don't read your posts...

Hmmm...I hate to say it, but I think you're absolutely wrong. The WTF-1 is not the Macross, as you've so often claimed. It's just another ship of the same type as the SDF-1.

[BadTroll]

"How much of what has been presented, historically did happen they way we've been shown?"

Which we will never know, and Kawamori probably doesn't have any idea either so Gubaba's 'pick your continuity' seems just fine. I'm leaning towards it being his excuse to take liberties with future works and movie versions without worrying too much about the small details from the past than anything significant. I doubt he really thinks along the lines of "Macross history really has Aliens invade earth and music saves the day, but it was Michael Jackson singing thriller who beat the Zentradi but for entertainment sake the people making the 'films about that event' will make it a cute little girl." It's just a good excuse from a guy who doesn't want to answer for things the fans should be ignoring in light of the larger themes of the series.

[Gubaba]

Which we will never know, and Kawamori probably doesn't have any idea either so Gubaba's 'pick your continuity' seems just fine. I'm leaning towards it being his excuse to take liberties with future works and movie versions without worrying too much about the small details from the past than anything significant. I doubt he really thinks along the lines of "Macross history really has Aliens invade earth and music saves the day, but it was Michael Jackson singing thriller who beat the Zentradi but for entertainment sake the people making the 'films about that event' will make it a cute little girl." It's just a good excuse from a guy who doesn't want to answer for things the fans should be ignoring in light of the larger themes of the series.

It's why I more or less stopped posting over there.

[BadTroll]

It's why I more or less stopped posting over there

Responded to the wrong thread bro? *You meant animesuki?*

[Gubaba]

Responded to the wrong thread bro? *You meant animesuki?*

Oops. yeah...how the hell did that happen?

[BadTroll]

No idea

[Zinjo]

Oops. yeah...how the hell did that happen?

Did you say something?

[Gubaba]

Did you say something?

Misa Hayase: White Reminiscences

Prologue

The irritating footsteps inside of the room came and went. Takashi Hayase looked at the clock once again. The appointed time has already passed. Hayase held the pipe in his mouth again, even though it had gone out some time before. The meal on the table had gotten cold.

This person was not just an Admiral in the U.N. Forces, he was also the father of a solitary daughter.

“I apologize for taking so long.”

Misa had arrived at last.

“You’re late.”

…but it’s all right, he started to say, but the words stuck in the back of his throat.

Misa stood at the doorway wearing a long-sleeved kimono, which had been ordered specially for this day. Her long hair was arranged carefully, and her cheeks even showed a faint hint of red.

“Please don’t look at me like that, Father.”

She hid her embarrassed face with the kimono, and the collar dropped, exposing the nape of her white neck.

“Please don’t be embarrassed. I’m just surprised at how lovely you look.”

After he said that, the Admiral gestured for Misa to take a chair, and then he sat down opposite her. Although it was the first meal the two of them had had together in a long time, neither of them touched their chopsticks.

[BadTroll]

*Golf clap* Good job.

[Zinjo]

Misa Hayase: White Reminiscences

Prologue

The irritating footsteps inside of the room came and went. Takashi Hayase looked at the clock once again. The appointed time has already passed. Hayase held the pipe in his mouth again, even though it had gone out some time before. The meal on the table had gotten cold.

This person was not just an Admiral in the U.N. Forces, he was also the father of a solitary daughter.

"I apologize for taking so long."

Misa had arrived at last.

"You're late."

…but it's all right, he started to say, but the words stuck in the back of his throat.

Misa stood at the doorway wearing a long-sleeved kimono, which had been ordered specially for this day. Her long hair was arranged carefully, and her cheeks even showed a faint hint of red.

"Please don't look at me like that, Father."

She hid her embarrassed face with the kimono, and the collar dropped, exposing the nape of her white neck.

"Please don't be embarrassed. I'm just surprised at how lovely you look."

After he said that, the Admiral gestured for Misa to take a chair, and then he sat down opposite her. Although it was the first meal the two of them had had together in a long time, neither of them touched their chopsticks.

LOL, Touche ...

[Spitze]

Ain't it funny how Western fans like to mince and dice over canon? Like the way they do with Star Wars/Trek, and even Halo(read the wikia entry about Dr. Halsey)?

[sketchley]

Ain't it funny how Western fans like to mince and dice over canon? Like the way they do with Star Wars/Trek, and even Halo(read the wikia entry about Dr. Halsey)?

Nah. What's funny is the mincing and dicing over the finer nuance of words that have been translated.

Original term -> translation (half the nuance and meaning disappears, sometimes more) -> English term -> interpretation (with more than half the nuances and meaning stemming from the user's diction).

So, the end result is something containing only a quarter of the original's nuanced meaning!

[Spitze]

Err, what I mean is being obsessive-compulsive over canon. Like how fans try too hard to explain and fit in inconsistencies and stuff.

[Gubaba]

Err, what I mean is being obsessive-compulsive over canon. Like how fans try too hard to explain and fit in inconsistencies and stuff.

To be fair, it's not just Western fans that do that...getting ridiculously nit-picky is the provenance of fanboys the world over.

[Bri]

We need to also be careful to distinguish between consistence inconsistencies and inconsistent inconsistencies.

If a source other than the anime is consistent in its' presentation of the anime's inconsistencies, then the inconsistencies of said source are consistent with the anime's inconsistencies, and therefore the source IS consistent despite its' inconsistencies, since those inconcistencies are consistent with the anime's inconsistencies.

However, if a source other than the anime is inconsistent in its' presentation of the anime's inconsistencies, then it has introduced a new layer of inconsistencies that is not consistent with the inconsistencies of the original anime, and therefore said source is truly inconsistent not because it's simply inconsistent but because its' inconsistency varies gravely from the inconsistencies of Macross itself.

Pete

Hmm, Sir Humphrey or Bernard?

[Zinjo]

To be fair, it's not just Western fans that do that...getting ridiculously nit-picky is the provenance of fanboys the world over.

You got an official source for that remark?

[anime52k8]

>snip<

Um... ok.

maybe I'm missing something but that sounds disturbingly like some sort of horrible incest slash fiction.

[Gubaba]

Um... ok.

maybe I'm missing something but that sounds disturbingly like some sort of horrible incest slash fiction.

Nah...I think it's just a father and daughter who aren't used to expressing affection. Of course it's gonna come out sounding a little awkward.

[Gubaba]

You got an official source for that remark?

Several. Check "Otaku Homes and Gardens" Volume 3, issue 2, p. 162 et passim. Lavoisier's Elements of Chemistry (available in an affordable Dover paperback) also surprisingly makes reference to the phenomenon on p. 247. And, more recently, a noted authority on Robotech who hails from Canada addressed this problem on the public forum, "RobotechX.com."

[sketchley]

Several. Check "Otaku Homes and Gardens" Volume 3, issue 2, p. 162 et passim. Lavoisier's Elements of Chemistry (available in an affordable Dover paperback) also surprisingly makes reference to the phenomenon on p. 247. And, more recently, a noted authority on Robotech who hails from Canada addressed this problem on the public forum, "RobotechX.com."

PWNed!

[Zinjo]

Several. Check "Otaku Homes and Gardens" Volume 3, issue 2, p. 162 et passim. Lavoisier's Elements of Chemistry (available in an affordable Dover paperback) also surprisingly makes reference to the phenomenon on p. 247. And, more recently, a noted authority on Robotech who hails from Canada addressed this problem on the public forum, "RobotechX.com."