Mr March Posted June 10, 2009 Posted June 10, 2009 (edited) It's safe to say Grace wasn't human during the amine. She stopped being human the first time she died. She's similar to number six from BSG after that. I am pretty sure she wasn't the protagonist, but she's a better character then most protagonists. (By "better" I don't mean morally, moral don't apply to bots.) Grace certainly was human in the anime, since the series covers both her past and present, which is how we know about her character arc. And her being a human that became trans-human is entirely the point of her character and the theme the writers wished to explore in Macross Frontier. The rest is ascribing traits to Grace which she does not possess. I will admit, the "subject" of trans-humanism is more broad than the way it was explored in Frontier, but that isn't Grace and that isn't Macross Frontier. I agree. I think the post-human elements of Grace never succeeded in freeing her from her more base human passions. Her fiery "Dr Hell" soliloquy there near the end of the show sort of brought that point sharply to my mind. Don't get me wrong. I love her character: she's cool and well written and smokin' hot to look at, but in the end she's just as much a victim of her basic human passions and failings as any other 'mad genius' in sci-fi. Precisely. I also found her character enjoying and entertaining, but as she was intended, not as she might have been had another writer written another series about the same subject. Edited June 10, 2009 by Mr March Quote
Nerdfish Posted June 10, 2009 Author Posted June 10, 2009 (edited) The writers did not do her justice huh. Thinking of it, isn't the whole point of becoming a disembodied construct avoiding those human flaws the writers piled on her. This is just bad writing, then She certainly isn't given a realistic portrait. But considering how much fun the show was, I can forgive that. My fault to take a Mecha show seriously, isn't it. Edited June 10, 2009 by Nerdfish Quote
Mr March Posted June 10, 2009 Posted June 10, 2009 Guess it depends upon how you look at it. The flip side of trans-humanism that Macross Frontier did explore is no less worth considering. In fact, one might even call it refreshing from a critical perspective of Japanese anime, which is just as guilty of blindly advocating technology rather than pondering the consequences/dangers of it. Macross Frontier may be ultimately limited by being a mecha anime, but Japanese anime is by no means the only genre suffering under the burden of trying to make entertainment first and serious philosophical/technological studies second. Just ask McG Regardless, Grace was great fun from an entertainment standpoint. I loved her role in the series, her machinations and her interactions with other, particularly Sheryl and Leon. Quote
dreamweaver13 Posted June 10, 2009 Posted June 10, 2009 Regardless, Grace was great fun from an entertainment standpoint. I loved her role in the series, her machinations and her interactions with other, particularly Sheryl and Leon. The best part about grace is how she went from this: to this: It's like you'll be telling me that Nanase will try to conquer the universe later on. How could I possibly believe you? Quote
Nerdfish Posted June 11, 2009 Author Posted June 11, 2009 (edited) The best part about grace is how she went from this: to this: It's like you'll be telling me that Nanase will try to conquer the universe later on. How could I possibly believe you? Those images shows that Electronic PMS is deadly. Avoid it at all cost. We should really watch out for Nanase. the More innocent they look, the more evil they are. Edited June 11, 2009 by Nerdfish Quote
aerocombatpilot Posted June 11, 2009 Posted June 11, 2009 The best part about grace is how she went from this: to this: I'd take her either way!!!!! Quote
dreamweaver13 Posted June 11, 2009 Posted June 11, 2009 I'd take her either way!!!!! I never said i wouldn't! Quote
David Hingtgen Posted June 11, 2009 Posted June 11, 2009 Nanase and Grace both have glasses and purple hair/eyes... Quote
Nerdfish Posted June 11, 2009 Author Posted June 11, 2009 Nanase and Grace both have glasses and purple hair/eyes... The conspiracy deepens ! Quote
Gubaba Posted June 11, 2009 Posted June 11, 2009 Nanase and Grace both have glasses and purple hair/eyes... Which is why I feel a certain soft spot for Grace. And for Mina... Quote
David Hingtgen Posted June 11, 2009 Posted June 11, 2009 So instead of a Grace-Sheryl hybrid, a Grace-Nanase hybrid might be the most popular of all here on MW... (c'mon people, I know we have some artists here, start drawing!) Quote
MisaForever Posted June 11, 2009 Posted June 11, 2009 So instead of a Grace-Sheryl hybrid, a Grace-Nanase hybrid might be the most popular of all here on MW... (c'mon people, I know we have some artists here, start drawing!) Yes, please! Large chest + older woman = Happy MF Quote
Gubaba Posted June 11, 2009 Posted June 11, 2009 Yes, please! Large chest + older woman = Happy MF Now you're abandoning Klang, too? You, sir, are a fickle, fickle man. Quote
David Hingtgen Posted June 11, 2009 Posted June 11, 2009 Hey, Grace needs more fans. Not a single piece of merchandise for her yet, and little fan-art. Quote
nhyone Posted June 11, 2009 Posted June 11, 2009 I don't like the Ghost In The Shell / The Matrix type of powers shown by Grace. At times, I thought I was watching GiTS. I also think the transition of Grace from meek manager to super-villian is too sudden. IIRC, the first obvious clue was when she was evasdropping on the meeting. Quote
Mercurial Morpheus Posted June 11, 2009 Posted June 11, 2009 Nice to see another Grace fan. I knew I probably left the shipping drama and just founded the Church of Grace way back when... Personally, I thought Grace's reveal was one of the better handled aspects in the show. Quote
VFTF1 Posted June 11, 2009 Posted June 11, 2009 IMHO Grace is a waste as a Big Bad. She has the complexity to ignore obsolete moral principles and is too intelligent to fall for provincial Villain clichés. Realistically the implant network idea would have worked if she just tried to legalize and sell those things. A lot of people would find it advantageous to join a galaxy spanning network. While not connecting to everyone, enough humans and Vajra would be in the network to bring about dawn of a new age. So... your argument is basically: Grace WOULD BE cool IF she wasn't a villain - a villain by definition does not allow the free choice that you speak of. Look at the path Ranka took to get people to listen to her music - she worked hard and sang for nothing in Fomo from her heart and sang while singing carrots, and sang on the street handing out her CDs... If Grace had started an internet campaign to get everyone to join the network, pointing out how great it would be - that's fine. Maybe it would be a preferable form of life and more and more people would join - but they would make that choice for themselves. What Grace did was pretty much the same as what the people behind Sharon Apple tried to do. I have sympathy for Grace. I think she's a tragic character. "provincial cliche?" No. I see no sign of her being treated that way in Macross: Frontier. It is well established that her ambitions were thwarted by the Vajra, that her womanhood was taken away (having your original gorgeous body burned is a terrible trauma and no matter how much you are restored as an artificial life form - you loose your female intuition, and your femininity - which is a very painful thing). Grace's story is a tragic story about the perils of unchecked science gone awry. Whether her vision has merit or not is a matter for deliberation - something she herself does not allow. I can't see how this can be called courageous or be in any way heroic. A hero is someone who believes so much in their vision that they are willing to risk that other people will turn them down and turn their backs on them - and when they do - the hero sings louder, tries harder - does everything to convince others to their vision - because he knows that only when others freely choose to follow does he truly win. Strapping the Zendradi in chains and forcing them to listen to Minmey sing Do You Remember Love? would have been beside the point. The song changed their hearts. Clearly the Macross New UN government - for all its' faults - is open enough to allow for the existence of various cultures in the colony ships. So, you have a more technological and science oriented culture on Galaxy, and a more environmentalist and naturalistic culture on Frontier. Lots of different colony ships probably have their own particular paths as well. This is good. Grace wanted everyone do serve her and do what she wanted and to control the universe. That is bad. That is why she is the villain. Her only salvation is that she is a tragic villain. Nobody cried for Grace's loss, and nobody even tried to help her. Pete Quote
SchizophrenicMC Posted June 11, 2009 Posted June 11, 2009 Wall of Meaningfulness You're the only one on this forum whom I've ever seen speak that way. Are you, perchance, a philosopher? Quote
Mr March Posted June 11, 2009 Posted June 11, 2009 (edited) Be thankful for the spacing, punctuation and coherency. Trust me, the internet has produced far worse. Edited June 11, 2009 by Mr March Quote
SchizophrenicMC Posted June 11, 2009 Posted June 11, 2009 Be thankful for the spacing, punctuation and coherency. Trust me, the internet has produced far worse. At Nerfhaven, you get banned for not having the above 3 characteristics. But, back to Grace. I love purple-haired meganne... Quote
Killer Robot Posted June 12, 2009 Posted June 12, 2009 I love purple-haired meganne... So convenient that MacF has three of them then. And one guy with purple hair and glasses, come to think. It seems that in that setting, purple hair goes with glasses, with Michael as the lone example of one but not the other. Quote
VFTF1 Posted June 12, 2009 Posted June 12, 2009 Are you, perchance, a philosopher? I guess you discovered my day job Pete Quote
VFTF1 Posted June 12, 2009 Posted June 12, 2009 Maybe a poet. The signature is hilarious That's Dad's day job Pete Quote
Bowen Posted June 12, 2009 Posted June 12, 2009 I guess you discovered my day job Pete Wait, you are? Awesome I hope to finish up my first year at uni studying philosophy this year And to stay on topic, Grace is cool (and pretty good looking ), just leave out the tentacles Quote
David Hingtgen Posted June 12, 2009 Posted June 12, 2009 VFTF1--did your sig-poem just get even longer? It's nearly double what the forum rules call for. Quote
VFTF1 Posted June 12, 2009 Posted June 12, 2009 It's been this way since I wrote it Not my fault there are so many characters in Macross But I can make it longer and add Grace to it to make you happy Pete Quote
Nerdfish Posted June 12, 2009 Author Posted June 12, 2009 VFTF, I have pointed out the grace's attempt to control the universe is highly unrealistic. There is really no reason why any intelligent creature or construct would put themselves directly in charge of a vast number of much less intelligent beings. Even if she had succeeded with that goal in mind, she'd have to think for everybody - which is just more work. How could she achieve revenge, or anything for that matter, by saddling herself with the the task of thinking for everyone. Quote
Rbstr Posted June 12, 2009 Posted June 12, 2009 She's a cyborg in the Future. She was obviously already capable of parallel thought when we see those inside cyberspace/her head scenes. Plus the vajra seem a bit semi-autonomous (think about how we breath...control could be similar to that), kind of like RTS units. Quote
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