Grace is Awesome

[Nerdfish]

I just watched Macross F again, and I must say I am in awe of Grace. She is a little mean, but she is the one character who has ambition, courage and capacity to improve the universe. Her masterful plan is of course disrupted by the heroes in the end because she happens to be The Villain.

IMHO Grace is a waste as a Big Bad. She has the complexity to ignore obsolete moral principles and is too intelligent to fall for provincial Villain clichés. Realistically the implant network idea would have worked if she just tried to legalize and sell those things. A lot of people would find it advantageous to join a galaxy spanning network. While not connecting to everyone, enough humans and Vajra would be in the network to bring about dawn of a new age. Allowing anyone to join and leave the network freely would also constantly bring new ideas into the network, and keep the queen from becoming bored.

While it’s perfectly feasible for Grace to think of above, it’s much less dramatic that way. Therefore Grace has to be killed over and over for our entertainment. But either way I say she gave it a good try given the circumstances.

Since Grace died half a dozen times during the show, I hope this is not the last we see of her. She'd make a pretty damn good hero without the control freak in her

Edited June 9, 2009 by Nerdfish

[Gubaba]

BRAVO!

This is the post David Hingtgen should have written.

[Major Focker]

that's certainly one way of making a splash

welcome to MW!

you would make david proud indeed

[Xeros]

BRAVO!

This is the post David Hingtgen should have written.

And where is yours for Nanase???

[Nerdfish]

Thanks everyone. You guys seemed to be a whole a lot friendlier then other forums!

If grace herself wasn't awesome enough, grace and all her clones together would surely have enough awesomeness to overwhelm both Ranka and Sheryl.

Edited June 9, 2009 by Nerdfish

[Gubaba]

And where is yours for Nanase???

Way back here:

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...st&p=601726

[Killer Robot]

I like Grace and all, but isn't the "I was going to kill you, but instead I will break your spirit and leave you to die while I go about my plot because I know you will never threaten me" treatment of Sheryl a classic villain cliche?

Though what I loved most about Grace was that it's the first time I remember seeing a villain/antagonist/troublemaker in a Macross series who wasn't totally obvious as such within five seconds of appearing onscreen. The reversal of initial presentation was refreshing and well done.

[dreamweaver13]

I like Grace and all, but isn't the "I was going to kill you, but instead I will break your spirit and leave you to die while I go about my plot because I know you will never threaten me" treatment of Sheryl a classic villain cliche?

Though what I loved most about Grace was that it's the first time I remember seeing a villain/antagonist/troublemaker in a Macross series who wasn't totally obvious as such within five seconds of appearing onscreen. The reversal of initial presentation was refreshing and well done.

hmmm... I don't know about that. Compared to other shows, i think macross has been pretty subtle about its antagonists.

in sdfm, while britai and exedole were the first enemies, they eventually turned to the other side. Bodolza did not appear entirely evil the first time he appeared. while i admit Kaifun is the biggest ass in the macross universe, he appeared more as a romantic foil to hikaru and minmei in his first appearance. it wasn't until later that we saw how much of a jerk he really was.

in M+, sharon apple wasn't really the enemy until the last quarter. In Macross0, there were just 2 military sides fighting it out, anti-un wasn't necessarily evil.

[Vepariga]

Grace is awesome and more enjoyable to watch then ranka or sheryl screentime,plus she has the looks to boot.

[D.D. Ivanov]

hmmm... I don't know about that. Compared to other shows, i think macross has been pretty subtle about its antagonists.

in sdfm, while britai and exedole were the first enemies, they eventually turned to the other side. Bodolza did not appear entirely evil the first time he appeared. while i admit Kaifun is the biggest ass in the macross universe, he appeared more as a romantic foil to hikaru and minmei in his first appearance. it wasn't until later that we saw how much of a jerk he really was.

in M+, sharon apple wasn't really the enemy until the last quarter. In Macross0, there were just 2 military sides fighting it out, anti-un wasn't necessarily evil.

Well, Kamjin was clearly going to be a solid enemy from the very beginning. And Kaifun was an ass from the very first time you saw him, as he immediately starts out with his hippy BS. Also, both the Spacy and the Anti-UN were bad in Zero. The UNS would destroy AFOS and possibly the island if their experiments were not to work out, and the AUN had that professor guy who wanted to end the world.

Edited June 9, 2009 by D.D. Ivanov

[Nerdfish]

I like Grace and all, but isn't the "I was going to kill you, but instead I will break your spirit and leave you to die while I go about my plot because I know you will never threaten me" treatment of Sheryl a classic villain cliche?

That can be interpreted as an idle threat. Grace really couldn't have pwnt Sheryl then without attracting too much attention. Sheryl is involved with pilots from SMS. Killing Sheryl would very possibly leads to exposure of her plan. Grace knows Sheryl was about to break, and would never admit she has been threatened. Therefore an empty threat then would be the best course of action.

Stories need bad guys, a pity really. She'd make a great anti-villain without the control freak. Her goals are admirable sans the Root Node catch.

Edited June 9, 2009 by Nerdfish

[Mr March]

I like your forum name Nerdfish

I loved Grace as a villain, especially as a composite character that represented more the disturbing vision of a post-human when biotech goes beyond control. She was so easy to hate, but so much fun to hate at the same time. She wasn't really a well developed villain, but it was what she represented that made her so great. And every time she abused Sheryl, you just loved to hate Grace. Definitely one of the most fun and entertaining villains in Macross

Edited June 9, 2009 by Mr March

[Killer Robot]

hmmm... I don't know about that. Compared to other shows, i think macross has been pretty subtle about its antagonists.

in sdfm, while britai and exedole were the first enemies, they eventually turned to the other side. Bodolza did not appear entirely evil the first time he appeared. while i admit Kaifun is the biggest ass in the macross universe, he appeared more as a romantic foil to hikaru and minmei in his first appearance. it wasn't until later that we saw how much of a jerk he really was.

in M+, sharon apple wasn't really the enemy until the last quarter. In Macross0, there were just 2 military sides fighting it out, anti-un wasn't necessarily evil.

I'll have to grant you Sharon Apple, though I found her to be presented as a somewhat ominous figure at least from the start. For the other ones - antagonists becoming allies is part of Macross, and angatonists need not be heartless villains in any case. My point is that all of those had roles that were fairly clear and you knew where they stood. Even with the ones that started as antagonists and turned to allies the moves were pretty clearly telegraphed. Grace is unique in having seemed to be rather innocent and uninvolved in the conflict for at least a little while, and turning out to be one of the masterminds behind what the heroes are struggling against.

That can be interpreted as an idle threat. Grace really couldn't have pwnt Sheryl then without attracting too much attention. Sheryl is involved with pilots from SMS. Killing Sheryl would very possibly leads to exposure of her plan. Grace knows Sheryl was about to break, and would never admit she has been threatened. Therefore an empty threat then would be the best course of action.

Stories need bad guys, a pity really. She'd make a great anti-villain without the control freak. Her goals are admirable sans the Root Node catch.

There was no idle threats involved: Grace said Sheryl's death was planned and then interrupted during her conference with the rest of the Galaxy conspirators, not to Sheryl or anyone on Frontier. Likewise, it was to them that she said Project Fairy was over and she had no further use for Sheryl. All she said to Sheryl was that she had no use for her and was just going to let her die from the disease she conveniently had not cured before it was too late. She was clearly aware that there was some danger to her plans from Bilrer and SMS, and even that Alto was one of those people who have a knack to be at the center of things, but those were also mostly ignored because the plan was so perfect. True, it almost worked, but with that villainous cliche it always almost works until the little people the big bad knew but wasn't decisive about suddenly assemble a winning hand right under her nose. Naturally, a villain that doesn't make one of the classic missteps is likely to win, so it's not like I call it bad writing that she adhered to the cliche, just that she obviously did so.

And hmm. Could Grace have made a non-villain? Certainly. Unifying the Galaxy in a network of the willing could be a laudable goal, but it was entirely overshadowed by her total disregard for the rights or wishes of anyone else involved. Similarly, Leon wanting to be the beloved President of Frontier and founder of a new colony world was hardly villainous - it was his willingness to lie and kill to get there that made the villain. Even Boldoza's wish to follow his people's ancient orders to keep free of cultural contamination wasn't so bad (ignorant rather than really ignoble) - until he decided that this required the extermination of Britai's fleet and all of humanity to accomplish it. What one will do to accomplish a goal is as much a definition of villainy as what those goals are.

On another front though, it's hard to imagine a Macross series where a less villainous version of Grace's plan would be cast in a good light, for much the same reason as it's hard to imagine one where the Ghost program as replacement for VFs would have been a good and successful move - like many sci-fi series, it's much about a sort of culture and lifestyle the present viewer can understand and identify with, only with spaceships, giant robots, and ten meter tall people with pointy ears. Serious shakeups to human society, and the principles by which human society operates, are handled lightly by casual-viewing stuff like Macross.

[Nerdfish]

There was no idle threats involved: Grace said Sheryl's death was planned and then interrupted during her conference with the rest of the Galaxy conspirators, not to Sheryl or anyone on Frontier. Likewise, it was to them that she said Project Fairy was over and she had no further use for Sheryl. All she said to Sheryl was that she had no use for her and was just going to let her die from the disease she conveniently had not cured before it was too late. She was clearly aware that there was some danger to her plans from Bilrer and SMS, and even that Alto was one of those people who have a knack to be at the center of things, but those were also mostly ignored because the plan was so perfect.

But she couldn't have explicitly killed Sheryl in a horrible death scene (a.k.a Micheal death) without attracting attention.

On another front though, it's hard to imagine a Macross series where a less villainous version of Grace's plan would be cast in a good light, for much the same reason as it's hard to imagine one where the Ghost program as replacement for VFs would have been a good and successful move - like many sci-fi series, it's much about a sort of culture and lifestyle the present viewer can understand and identify with, only with spaceships, giant robots, and ten meter tall people with pointy ears. Serious shakeups to human society, and the principles by which human society operates, are handled lightly by casual-viewing stuff like Macross.

That brings up another point, why do the Heroes always end up beating the villain shitless instead of at least try to convince them. Grace seemed to be a reasonable character (as are all cyborgs) If a good point is bought up she's likely to at least consider it. Heck, even if a computer virus would have neutralized her ahead of time without any horrible deaths involved. Maybe it's just morally acceptable for current audience to beat up a villain, and it's pretty and satisfying that way.

It's never specified why she want to control everyone. Didn't she ever read Dune ? It's highly unrealistic to portrait a scientist as a bigot - They have to be constantly aware of possible flaws in theories and keep a open mind. A good scientist would never be certain of their correctness. Unless she have accumulate a mountain of data to prove that it's better for HER to control everyone, she'd have to always in doubt of that.

"Give as few orders as possible," his father had told him... once... long ago. "Once you've given orders on a subject, you must always give orders on that subject."

Oh, the perils of leadership in a species so anxious to be told what to do! How little they knew of what they created by their demands. Leaders made mistakes- And those mistakes, amplified by the numbers who followed without questioning, moved inevitably toward great disasters.

The more control, the more that requires control. This is the road to chaos.

Edited June 9, 2009 by Nerdfish

[David Hingtgen]

Hmmmn. If Grace is cooler than Sheryl and Ranka combined, would some sort of Grace-Sheryl hybrid be the coolest character ever? ::wishes I had some sort of art talent to draw such a thing::

[Kronnang Dunn]

She has the complexity to ignore obsolete moral principles and is too intelligent to fall for provincial Villain clichés.

Err... actually (and according to Kawamori himself) that "complexity" was just sheer utter madness. She was simply your typical crazy scientist stereotype... The Galaxy staff were even more evil since they used her for their means (this was also revealed by Kawamori).

All that beauty and coolness was merely a facade. A mask. She was just more machine than human (HAL 9000 type)... twisted an evil.

Edited June 9, 2009 by Kronnang Dunn

[Nerdfish]

Madness ? she may be completely sane for a Cyborg. From their perspective we are the insane, irrational ones. And before you call her a "crazy" scientist, try to understand her a bit more. She is doing something that make perfect sense. Although she's slightly obsessive/compulsive when it comes to being in control, she's probably one of the most rational character in the series.

She is more of a program then a machine. Grace came back from death at least twice. It's possible to appreciate the excellent precision and elegance that makes a beautiful program. Now tell me why human beauty isn't mask or facade, and I will give you a digital cookie. And that starwars quote is so very, very old.

Edited June 9, 2009 by Nerdfish

[SchizophrenicMC]

Err... actually (and according to Kawamori himself) that "complexity" was just sheer utter madness. She was simply your typical crazy scientist stereotype... The Galaxy staff were even more evil since they used her for their means (this was also revealed by Kawamori).

All that beauty and coolness was merely a facade. A mask. She was just more machine than human (HAL 9000 type)... twisted an evil.

"Join me, Ranka, and we shall rule the universe together, as Crazy-twisted-godmother-of-sorts and Daughter."

-Darth Vajra

[dreamweaver13]

Madness ? she may be completely sane for a Cyborg. From their perspective we are the insane, irrational ones. And before you call her a "crazy" scientist, try to understand her a bit more. She is doing something that make perfect sense. Although she's slightly obsessive/compulsive when it comes to being in control, she's probably one of the most rational character in the series.

She is more of a program then a machine. Grace came back from death at least twice. It's possible to appreciate the excellent precision and elegance that makes a beautiful program. Now tell me why human beauty isn't mask or facade, and I will give you a digital cookie. And that starwars quote is so very, very old.

I understand how Grace can have noble intentions, but you also have to consider that she could have indeed be driven by some sort of madness (if you go by the episode with her first death, while she was burning). You have to wonder how much of her plan is really to unite humanity (and eventually rule over it), or how much of it is to have revenge on the vajra that killed her the first time.

You could also see it this way... the rest of the AIs with grace may have altruistic intentions, but grace's own AI may have other goals in mind.

Edited June 9, 2009 by dreamweaver13

[dreamweaver13]

Hmmmn. If Grace is cooler than Sheryl and Ranka combined, would some sort of Grace-Sheryl hybrid be the coolest character ever? ::wishes I had some sort of art talent to draw such a thing::

Wow. hopes, dreams, despair and nightmares all in one package. me likee.

[Mr March]

I understand how Grace can have noble intentions, but you also have to consider that she could have indeed be driven by some sort of madness (if you go by the episode with her first death, while she was burning). You have to wonder how much of her plan is really to unite humanity (and eventually rule over it), or how much of it is to have revenge on the vajra that killed her the first time.

You could also see it this way... the rest of the AIs with grace may have altruistic intentions, but grace's own AI may have other goals in mind.

Whether Grace and her cohorts in the Macross Galaxy fleet were altruistic might not even be an issue. What form of rule would hold sway in their new cybernetic utopia?

In any social system, you need ways to deal with fundamentally differing points of view. Sure Grace and her cohorts are all of the same opinion, but what happens when someone else isn't (or even some change their minds). There would have to be some kind of government, even if the laws of governance in this cybernetic utopia don't resemble anything we now perceive as government. And who is likely to be calling the shots in this cybernetic utopia if not Grace herself? So I doubt her motives and those of the Macross Galaxy co-conspirators were really altruistic at all. Even if everything came to pass as Grace desired and all Humans/Zentradi were either wiped out or migrated to a post-human existence, Grace would likely be the one in charge of it all. Sounds like just another dictatorships to me, perhaps even worse given the pervasiveness of a disembodied consciousness that can be everywhere and in every machine.

[dreamweaver13]

Whether Grace and her cohorts in the Macross Galaxy fleet were altruistic might not even be an issue. What form of rule would hold sway in their new cybernetic utopia?

In any social system, you need ways to deal with fundamentally differing points of view. Sure Grace and her cohorts are all of the same opinion, but what happens when someone else isn't (or even some change their minds). There would have to be some kind of government, even if the laws of governance in this cybernetic utopia don't resemble anything we now perceive as government. And who is likely to be calling the shots in this cybernetic utopia if not Grace herself? So I doubt her motives and those of the Macross Galaxy co-conspirators were really altruistic at all. Even if everything came to pass as Grace desired and all Humans/Zentradi were either wiped out or migrated to a post-human existence, Grace would likely be the one in charge of it all. Sounds like just another dictatorships to me, perhaps even worse given the pervasiveness of a disembodied consciousness that can be everywhere and in every machine.

Good point. we can't even preclude the possibility of in-fighting among Grace's multiple AIs. From the series, it is apparent that while the AIs communicate with each other, one specific AI takes primary control at any given time (MF Ep 15). In their own terminology, whose AI will "take the initiative" at certain points in time. Sure, they were happy enough to have grace take control during the take-over, but what about after?

[Nerdfish]

Whether Grace and her cohorts in the Macross Galaxy fleet were altruistic might not even be an issue. What form of rule would hold sway in their new cybernetic utopia?

In any social system, you need ways to deal with fundamentally differing points of view. Sure Grace and her cohorts are all of the same opinion, but what happens when someone else isn't (or even some change their minds). There would have to be some kind of government, even if the laws of governance in this cybernetic utopia don't resemble anything we now perceive as government. And who is likely to be calling the shots in this cybernetic utopia if not Grace herself? So I doubt her motives and those of the Macross Galaxy co-conspirators were really altruistic at all. Even if everything came to pass as Grace desired and all Humans/Zentradi were either wiped out or migrated to a post-human existence, Grace would likely be the one in charge of it all. Sounds like just another dictatorships to me, perhaps even worse given the pervasiveness of a disembodied consciousness that can be everywhere and in every machine.

A network does not have to have a master. Have you heard of peer to peer networks? RTS games usually use these and if the host leaves everyone can continue to play. Nobody need to call the shot. If such a network need to make a political decision, then it's usually done by a quick vote (player kicking in peer-to-peer gaming is a pretty good example). I truly do not understand why galaxy had not decide to do things that way. The writers probably decided they'd be (a lot less) villainous that way and the show need bad guys. Remember we heard grace's plan during the last episode from the protagonist's perspective, there might be a misunderstanding. That or that Macross developers are really afraid of AIs.

BTW. there has never been an artificial protagonist character in the entire series (and plenty of villains). What's up with that. People are, for all intend and purposes, a lot more scarier then AIs

Edited June 10, 2009 by Nerdfish

[Nerdfish]

Wow. hopes, dreams, despair and nightmares all in one package. me likee.

What Grace need is a Sheryl clone. A quick download would give dream his/her idea of perfection

[dreamweaver13]

BTW. there has never been an artificial protagonist character in the entire series (and plenty of villains). What's up with that. People are, for all intend and purposes, a lot more scarier then AIs

Well, there's always Shimon, Johanne and Petero.

[Nerdfish]

Just had some fun with the idea of a peer to peer galaxy network.

Macross Galaxy: (bot message) you have joined channel 004. Today's news message is - Aimo.

Macross Galaxy: (bot message) 250,000 out of 1,000,000,000 users online, 400 in this channel

Grace: /votekick Brera Sterne.

Macross Galaxy: (bot message) Brera Sterne removal vote started, 1 out 500,000 votes required.

Brera Sterne: What the hell.

Grace: LOL.

Brera Sterne: Seriously what the hell.

Grace: Your Ranka streams are eating our bandwith.

Brera Sterne: BS. you said we have infinite bandwith.

Grace: for useful stuff.

Conspirator #25: Ranka streams are useful stuff.

Grace: /votekick 25

Macross Galaxy: (bot message) #25 removal vote started, 1 out of 500,000 vote required.

Vajra-Queen: take it easy with these votes already, I am listening Ranka streams too.

Ranka Lee: /agree

Grace: wtf is wrong with you guys. why is Ranka downloading from herself ?!?!?

X-9 Ghost #4: (bot message) cursing is not recommended on the galaxy network.

Frontier - Lucai: Hey Grace your votes are eating the bandwith.

Shimon: (bot message) /agree

Johanne: (bot message) /agree

Petero: (bot message) /agree

Grace: ARG.

Grace: Coffee BRB.

Grace: /quit.

Macross Galaxy: (bot message) Grace O'Connor has disconnected (disconnected by user).

Vajra-Queen: That was easy.

Ranka Lee: /agree.

Macross Galaxy: (bot message) LMAO.

Frontier-Alto has logged in.

Frontier-Alto: Sup.

Macross Galaxy: (bot message) Nothing.

Vajra-Queen: Nothing, wanna listen to Ranka streams ?

Frontier-Alto: No thanks.

Edited June 10, 2009 by Nerdfish

[dreamweaver13]

Just had some fun with the idea of a peer to peer galaxy network.

:lol: !! Nice one nerdfish!

[Mr March]

A network does not have to have a master. Have you heard of peer to peer networks? RTS games usually use these and if the host leaves everyone can continue to play. Nobody need to call the shot. If such a network need to make a political decision, then it's usually done by a quick vote (player kicking in peer-to-peer gaming is a pretty good example). I truly do not understand why galaxy had not decide to do things that way. The writers probably decided they'd be (a lot less) villainous that way and the show need bad guys. Remember we heard grace's plan during the last episode from the protagonist's perspective, there might be a misunderstanding. That or that Macross developers are really afraid of AIs.

BTW. there has never been an artificial protagonist character in the entire series (and plenty of villains). What's up with that. People are, for all intend and purposes, a lot more scarier then AIs

Given that the writers of Frontier never described the cyber-world and that no one can say how such a cybernetic utopia would function, debating it's rules is no debate at all. All we have is human nature, which hasn't diminished within Grace in the slightest since her trans-human migration. In fact, one could argue she's the worst of human nature. And as benevolent a way as we could ever try to portray Grace, her motives were never born out of altruism, but hatred and vengeance. She saw a means to an end, not the uplift of human existence. And if the motive was ever benevolent, there would also be a benevolent way to persuade others of the value of the cybernetic utopia, not impose it unilaterally. Like I said, Grace is just another dictatorship, but simply played on a different field.

[Kronnang Dunn]

Madness ? she may be completely sane for a Cyborg. From their perspective we are the insane, irrational ones. And before you call her a "crazy" scientist, try to understand her a bit more. She is doing something that make perfect sense. Although she's slightly obsessive/compulsive when it comes to being in control, she's probably one of the most rational character in the series.

She is more of a program then a machine. Grace came back from death at least twice. It's possible to appreciate the excellent precision and elegance that makes a beautiful program. Now tell me why human beauty isn't mask or facade, and I will give you a digital cookie. And that starwars quote is so very, very old.

Sacrificing thousands (if not millions) of unique sentient living beings (and almost a whole planet) in the process? Not rational at all... Grace's too wicked for being cool... Too obsesive for human... Too mad for a flawless A.I....

AFAIK Grace's only motivation behind her every move/plan/whatever was her mad obsession of becoming superior to the Protoculture and achieving what they couldn't. Vajra, humans and Zentradi were just obstacles for her, so she decided to kill/control them all. That's pretty crazy if you ask me...

Edited June 10, 2009 by Kronnang Dunn

[RedWolf]

Ah well all I can is... Enjoy your tentacles.

[Nerdfish]

All we have is human nature, which hasn't diminished within Grace in the slightest since her trans-human migration. In fact, one could argue she's the worst of human nature. And as benevolent a way as we could ever try to portray Grace, her motives were never born out of altruism, but hatred and vengeance. She saw a means to an end, not the uplift of human existence. And if the motive was ever benevolent, there would also be a benevolent way to persuade others of the value of the cybernetic utopia, not impose it unilaterally. Like I said, Grace is just another dictatorship, but simply played on a different field.

Unfortunately grace isn't human at all. You are assuming that an artificial intelligence have human motivation and nature. While that is possible, it certainly does not have to be true. An AI does not even need the capacity for hatred and vengeance. Her objective might have been the uplifting of human existence but bad writing and bigotry against AIs cause her to be play the role she did. Even then, she is wicked cool.

Edited June 10, 2009 by Nerdfish

[Nerdfish]

Sacrificing thousands (if not millions) of unique sentient living beings (and almost a whole planet) in the process? Not rational at all... Grace's too wicked for being cool... Too obsesive for human... Too mad for a flawless A.I....

AFAIK Grace's only motivation behind her every move/plan/whatever was her mad obsession of becoming superior to the Protoculture and achieving what they couldn't. Vajra, humans and Zentradi were just obstacles for her, so she decided to kill/control them all. That's pretty crazy if you ask me...

Mad obsession huh ? Please note the way AIs operate - if they have been programmed with a goal they may continue to peruse it at cost of everything else, even at cost of their own existence, depending on how the AI is coded.

Grace might have calculated that the new stage in evolution is worth any cost, or at least a planet worth of whatever. The key here is not what she is willing to sacrifice, but what her goal is. Her goal could to benefit herself or to advance the human species to the next stage of consciousness. If it's the former then it's just bad writing - why would she want the job of controlling billions of what amounts to idiots to her? if she want another job she could just work as the local vending machine instead. If her goal is the later, she's fundamentally benevolent, however applicable that word is to a artificial being.

As for killing everyone - that's just bad writing. As we have probably concluded by now, if she tried thing the sensible way, it'd not be any fun.

Ah well all I can is... Enjoy your tentacles.

Tentacles? I am sure grace have plenty of tentacle-less clones. I do hope grace get her next job as a sentient capital ship. Every Sci-fi world need one of those.

[Mr March]

Unfortunately grace isn't human at all. You are assuming that an artificial intelligence have human motivation and nature. While that is possible, it certainly does not have to be true. An AI does not even need the capacity for hatred and vengeance. Her objective might have been the uplifting of human existence but bad writing and bigotry against AIs cause her to be play the role she did. Even then, she is wicked cool.

Actually, Grace was human and all the baggage that entails. As for the rest, I think it's safe to say (debate about writing quality aside) Grace wasn't the protagonist nor was the purpose of Frontier to create an academic rumination upon human evolution vs. trans-human evolution

[Nerdfish]

Actually, Grace was human and all the baggage that entails. As for the rest, I think it's safe to say (debate about writing quality aside) Grace wasn't the protagonist nor was the purpose of Frontier to create an academic rumination upon human evolution vs. trans-human evolution

It's safe to say Grace wasn't human during the amine. She stopped being human the first time she died. She's similar to number six from BSG after that. I am pretty sure she wasn't the protagonist, but she's a better character then most protagonists. (By "better" I don't mean morally, moral don't apply to bots.)

Edited June 10, 2009 by Nerdfish

[AcroRay]

Actually, Grace was human and all the baggage that entails.

I agree. I think the post-human elements of Grace never succeeded in freeing her from her more base human passions. Her fiery "Dr Hell" soliloquy there near the end of the show sort of brought that point sharply to my mind.

Don't get me wrong. I love her character: she's cool and well written and smokin' hot to look at, but in the end she's just as much a victim of her basic human passions and failings as any other 'mad genius' in sci-fi.

Edited June 10, 2009 by AcroRay