The Ohnogi Question

[WD1]

Not sure what good it would do. Clearly, anyone who believes the "I have a bad memory" or "it was all internet rumors" excuses cannot be swayed by logic.

Besides, I'm sick of this. Unless someone comes over here proclaiming that, I dunno, Kawamori fired Yoko Kanno from the second movie because she was making Sheryl's songs sound too good, I don't think we need to worry about MG anymore.

EDIT: I mean, I tried. I asked about the Studio Nue Entertainment Bibles (since, of course, Shaloom insisted there were fifteen volumes, not the two that actually exist. One of the new admins said, "I see what the problem is; he meant BANDAI Entertainment Bibles. There are tons of those!" So I asked which one had the Ohnogi stories, and he said, essentially, "I couldn't tell you, and I don't really care. Shaloom said it was all a mistake, and he apologized. The matter's finished."

How do you reason with someone like that?

Guess you can't reason with them (or is it just one?). You owe me an URL though, don't forget to send it!

(Edit: Sorry, forgot to quote)

Edited July 29, 2009 by WD1

[VFTF1]

Gubaba - just to be on the safe side - perhaps you should decicate another few months to digging deeper into this mystery?

I think it's not settled by a long shot. I mean - even if we accept that Shaloom is lying - then to what end? What dark and sinister plans could he be catching? If we let this go now, and do as Azreal says and go back to our merry ways with this "let them have their website" attitude - then not too far off in the distant future, we will wake up one day and MW will be full of newbie posts proclaiming that Eggnog (sic?) not only wrote MF, but actually came up with the entire Macross concept, and who knows what other fiendish things.

You might think I'm being a raving lunatic now, but just wait and see. We'll be invaded I tell you. Over run by hoards of Shaloomed Macross fans who will outnumber us six million to point oh oh oh oh one.

However - if you keep working hard, with all of us cheering you on, it will be possible to shine the light of the sun on the darkness of the moon (or at least that side of the moon that is dark, because of course the other side is not dark, unless it's night time).

I say keep at it! Until All Are One!

Pete

[Zinjo]

You might think I'm being a raving lunatic now, but just wait and see. We'll be invaded I tell you. Over run by hoards of Shaloomed Macross fans who will outnumber us six million to point oh oh oh oh one.

Pfft!

If we get invaded, Graham will hand out the gunpods and they'll be toast!

Edited August 3, 2009 by Zinjo

[Mr March]

Does it really matter? I mean, as long as the record of this event remains on MW, everything Shaloom does after this will be tainted.

Will some believe him? Of course! There's never a shortage of the needy willing to follow, nor those that will agree simply to be disagreeable or to go against the grain for self satisfaction. Will there ever be some army of revisionists threatening Macross? If Macross can survive Robotech and Carl Macek, Shaloom doesn't stand a chance.

[Gubaba]

Gubaba - just to be on the safe side - perhaps you should decicate another few months to digging deeper into this mystery?

I think it's not settled by a long shot. I mean - even if we accept that Shaloom is lying - then to what end? What dark and sinister plans could he be catching? If we let this go now, and do as Azreal says and go back to our merry ways with this "let them have their website" attitude - then not too far off in the distant future, we will wake up one day and MW will be full of newbie posts proclaiming that Eggnog (sic?) not only wrote MF, but actually came up with the entire Macross concept, and who knows what other fiendish things.

You might think I'm being a raving lunatic now, but just wait and see. We'll be invaded I tell you. Over run by hoards of Shaloomed Macross fans who will outnumber us six million to point oh oh oh oh one.

However - if you keep working hard, with all of us cheering you on, it will be possible to shine the light of the sun on the darkness of the moon (or at least that side of the moon that is dark, because of course the other side is not dark, unless it's night time).

I say keep at it! Until All Are One!

Pete

I'm with March. I don't know why Shaloom did it, and I don't particularly care. If he wants to go for it again, let him. As soon as anyone on here (or Anime Suki, or My Anime List) tweak on to the fact that the info comes from him, hearty laughter will follow. It bugs me a lot that Macross Generation's name will most likely get dragged down with Shaloom's, but there isn't much anyone (except Shaloom) can do about that, unfortunately.

Sure, he'll be able to fool some of his true believers, but the fandom at large will know what's what. And from the get-go, that's all I really wanted.

[Mr March]

This has gone beyond caring for the MG community. I know it sounds harsh to say it, but the credibility of the Macross Generation website deserves to fall as long as Shaloom is in charge. Since Shaloom has bullied everyone into a corner, rejecting him and painting everything on his website with the same brush is the ONLY weapon the public has left. Shaloom will not take responsibility for his actions, so figures he can slide by on the charity of our "understanding" and emerge from under his stench of lies smelling like roses. If we indulge Shaloom by forgiving his unrepentant lies and "play nice like reasonable people", we would be guilty of conspiracy after the fact. TO HELL WITH THAT!

If the rest of the Spanish Macross community wants to avoid being painted with the same smear of shame as Shaloom, they'll do themselves (and all Macross fans) a favor by leaving the Macross Generation website. Start a new website and contribute something positive to Macross fandom rather than give credence to Shaloom and his house of cards.

[wolfx]

wow....this sounds like a big can 'o worms....and i was away when it was opened.

i suggest gubaba update the 1st post with a short disclaimer "as of so-and-so date, the information below are regarded as false due to Shaloom blablablabla" so people don't have to read the whole long debacle only to find out its false info.

[Gubaba]

This has gone beyond caring for the MG community. I know it sounds harsh to say it, but the credibility of the Macross Generation website deserves to fall as long as Shaloom is in charge. Since Shaloom has bullied everyone into a corner, rejecting him and painting everything on his website with the same brush is the ONLY weapon the public has left. Shaloom will not take responsibility for his actions, so figures he can slide by on the charity of our "understanding" and emerge from under his stench of lies smelling like roses. If we indulge Shaloom by forgiving his unrepentant lies and "play nice like reasonable people", we would be guilty of conspiracy after the fact. TO HELL WITH THAT!

If the rest of the Spanish Macross community wants to avoid being painted with the same smear of shame as Shaloom, they'll do themselves (and all Macross fans) a favor by leaving the Macross Generation website. Start a new website and contribute something positive to Macross fandom rather than give credence to Shaloom and his house of cards.

You're probably right...but I think a lot of the MG community don't really care about any of this; they just want to talk about Macross, and they'll do it wherever they can.

If a competing website turns up (as one undoubtedly will), they may flock to it, or they may not. They may continue to post at MG, but they might ignore Shaloom.

Quite honestly, if it were us instead of them, I'd probably leave...but that's because I've got the Galaxy Network Translation Project to worry about (the last thing I'd need is to have someone show up and declare that my translations of, say, My Fair Minmay or Macross Chronicle are fake...not that such an assertion could be held up for long, since the material is widely available, and I can provide scans of the pages). I would imagine that you would be in the same boat: the credibility of M3 would override any other considerations.

But you and I (and a handful of others, like Sketchley and Seto) are in a different position that most of the members here. If Graham lost his mind and started claiming that, I dunno, Kawamori wanted the VF-17 to be the hero mech for every Macross series, but got shot down by Big West higher-ups, it would be pretty easy for most of the membership here to ignore him and move on to other topics.

I think it's similar for MG. The members who feel betrayed will go elsewhere. The ones who don't know or don't care will stay, and they shouldn't be censured for it. They might get razzed by others, but I'm not going to judge them. Wherever they feel most comfortable is where they should stay.

[Mr March]

I'm speaking here within the confines of reasonable expectations. I'm not waiting for some popular uprising, merely plainly and fairly sharing my own opinion on the subject. Should I find myself arguing with some Macross Generation fan here (or on another forum) only for them to ask "Why is Macross Generation being bashed?", they will promptly be directed to this thread. They can protest all they want, but reputation lies not in their eyes but those who stare. But again, the odds of that happening are slim. Personally, I'm more than happy enough to ignore them, criticize the MG site when the subject arises and make a point of demanding the source of information in my future Macross discussions online.

Plus, there's a certain amount of personal responsibility to consider. If most MG members don't give a crap that Shaloom tried to pull a fast one on them, being ignorant is their problem. I know people who don't vote in elections either

Edited August 4, 2009 by Mr March

[dreamweaver13]

Or... if the blind are quite satisfied to be knowingly led by the blind, who can blame us for rolling our eyes a little bit?

[Gubaba]

I'm speaking here within the confines of reasonable expectations. I'm not waiting for some popular uprising, merely plainly and fairly sharing my own opinion on the subject. Should I find myself arguing with some Macross Generation fan here (or on another forum) only for them to ask "Why is Macross Generation being bashed?", they will promptly be directed to this thread. They can protest all they want, but reputation lies not in their eyes but those who stare. But again, the odds of that happening are slim. Personally, I'm more than happy enough to ignore them, criticize the MG site when the subject arises and make a point of demanding the source of information in my future Macross discussions online.

Oh believe me, I will, too. Although one of the new admins of MG, Wanderer_D, genuinely doesn't seem to understand why. And he's the only one I've come across who has actually come out and asked me why Shaloom should still be raked over the coals, even though he apologized.

Anyone bringing that up will get no traction with me. Being an MG member is one thing. Carrying water for Shaloom is a different story entirely.

But there will be as many different reactions as there are Macross fans, which is fine.

Plus, there's a certain amount of personal responsibility to consider. If most MG members don't give a crap that Shaloom tried to pull a fast one on them, being ignorant is their problem. I know people who don't vote in elections either

Look at wolfx's post above. Or similar posts from d3v and stray. Some people don't even realize that this was an issue. MG is a smaller community, but still...I'm sure that (just like here) there are those who hang out in the toys and kits section, and never venture into other areas of the site, and have no idea what's been going on. It's not always willful ignorance...some people just have more of a life than I do.

I'd like to point out, though, that all of this is currently academic. Shaloom has yet to start making stuff up again. I'm pretty sure he will (because I'm pretty sure he doesn't really know Japanese, but he's told everyone he does...someone's gonna be expecting some kind of translation from him eventually), but it hasn't happened since his faux "apology."

But still...he may have been scared straight, and we're currently fretting over nothing. (Yes, it's unlikely...that doesn't mean it's impossible. )

[Mr March]

Exactly, so who cares? As far as I'm concerned I have every intention of maintaining a proportional response toward MG. I'm not interested in any active hostility, board wars, or other stupidity. I'm past caring, as I said, and simply don't have the time, especially since I've got better things to do. But Shaloom and his website will not pass unscathed in the court of public opinion, such as it is on the net. I will not support them and I will continue to criticize them at my leisure. As for the MG community, they're on their own. Part of not caring and not having the time to police Shaloom means I don't have the time to speak with each individual member of MG and ask where they stand. They suffer by association, at least from me. Like I said above, it's harsh, but it's just and fair. By criticizing Shaloom and MG, there is incentive for them to do something about it. Besides, they are free to ignore me as well. Fair trade.

[Gubaba]

Exactly, so who cares? As far as I'm concerned I have every intention of maintaining a proportional response toward MG. I'm not interested in any active hostility, board wars, or other stupidity. I'm past caring, as I said, and simply don't have the time, especially since I've got better things to do. But Shaloom and his website will not pass unscathed in the court of public opinion, such as it is on the net. I will not support them and I will continue to criticize them at my leisure. As for the MG community, they're on their own. Part of not caring and not having the time to police Shaloom means I don't have the time to speak with each individual member of MG and ask where they stand. They suffer by association, at least from me. Like I said above, it's harsh, but it's just and fair. By criticizing Shaloom and MG, there is incentive for them to do something about it. Besides, they are free to ignore me as well. Fair trade.

Yes, fair enough.

Of course, you know quite well that the M3 is more valuable to them than anything they could offer you in return, right?

I'm curious to see how many (or how few) actually DO end up ignoring you...

[WD1]

Oh believe me, I will, too. Although one of the new admins of MG, Wanderer_D, genuinely doesn't seem to understand why. And he's the only one I've come across who has actually come out and asked me why Shaloom should still be raked over the coals, even though he apologized.

Anyone bringing that up will get no traction with me. Being an MG member is one thing. Carrying water for Shaloom is a different story entirely.

I won't really argue your point on this, since it would probably just start a fight no-one really wants. Mr. March has the right set of mind, I think, as I and others have pointed out to you, MG's credibility is already pretty down, however, you shouldn't have to twist words and paraphrase to prove a point, Gubaba...

Or as this message I sent you on the 26th might remind you...

Gubaba,

If you are implying I have a mess to clean, I am afraid I don't agree. I have no interest in the issue. What I am doing right now, which is helping re-establish the foundation for MG to move forward, is my issue and what I am interested in. Do not shift blame on me, if that is what you are saying.

If it cost you money, I am sad to hear it, since I have also bought from time to time things that ended up being useless... but to be blatantly honest, it is not my problem. It sucks, I know, but it is done and even if you got every answer you want, you wouldn't get the money back.

As for Macross World, Anime Suki and other sites, I know that you have thoroughly discussed the issue there. I was there when you did in two of them.

[...]

As for how you can help here... Your Ohnogi post here is still open, as you can surely see. So it's not like we want to obscure the facts that you brought up. What you did, was to the point and helpful. It helped here and in other sites, which is laudable. Here, you are welcome to post information you feel is relevant, participate in whatever subforum/topic you feel you want to participate.

Not all the information from this site comes from Shaloom, so, while the MG credibility might be questioned, the facts are also that the site has well-intended individuals that want to share their knowledge and interest about Macross.

On behalf of MG I apologize if false information from a member of our staff caused you and others problems. That is all I can do, and all that I am willing to do.

-WD

PS. You didn't send me the url for your blog, I'd like to see it if you don't mind.

Or more recently:

The best way you have to fight whatever information fight you are on, is to fight it by providing verifiable information, not by assuming everything from MG is wrong.

If you think advocating confirmation of sources, incentives to provide accurate information and an open invitation to you and others to share whatever reliable information you have is "genuinely not understanding why you would demand a source of information" well, then I guess you are completely right and we are on two different wavelengths.

As I told you before, you are free to quote me, but please, don't twist things.

It is clear MG-originating info will not be trusted in the foreseeable future. Either MG grows reliable again with time, or it doesn't, in the end, whether to trust implicitly or verify it falls to the reader himself.

-WD

[Gubaba]

I won't really argue your point on this, since it would probably just start a fight no-one really wants. Mr. March has the right set of mind, I think, as I and others have pointed out to you, MG's credibility is already pretty down, however, you shouldn't have to twist words and paraphrase to prove a point, Gubaba...

I'm not twisting words.

I pointed out a book that SHALOOM SAID HE OWNED AND HAD READ, asking if that was also just a "mistake." You replied:

Probably. I don't really care either way, and I won't spend my time chasing after it. He told me he made a mistake, that's all I need to know.

Life continues.

And in the bit you cut out from your response of the 26th:

As for Macross World, Anime Suki and other sites, I know that you have thoroughly discussed the issue there. I was there when you did in two of them.

They were angry. They were upset. That's a natural reaction, but it got you nowhere. I saw you reprint Shaloom's posts, and had someone translating them. I saw them make fun of his answer, say that he was evading the truth, etc. Fine. It's done. Anime Suki, & Macross World are not really part of my duties, and if their admins believe that random flaming is cool, that's fine. Their forums, their rules. For my part, until my admin job here is done, flaming of anyone, be it from you, Shaloom or any other user is not admissible.

But mostly this:

The best way you have to fight whatever information fight you are on, is to fight it by providing verifiable information, not by assuming everything from MG is wrong.

Your insistence that the issue is done with (and classifying it as "random flaming") shows me that you don't really understand why the apologies are unacceptable. Plus, "assuming that everything from MG is wrong" is EXACTLY what March is advocating.

So if you want to disagree with my point (dismiss Shaloom, but accept other MG members, as long as they can back up their info), and agree with him...well, then I don't know WHAT side you're on anymore.

It is clear MG-originating info will not be trusted in the foreseeable future. Either MG grows reliable again with time, or it doesn't, in the end, whether to trust implicitly or verify it falls to the reader himself.

If Shaloom wants to come clean and tell us exactly what's true and what's not, fine. If he still wants to stand by his easily-seen-through "it was all lapses of memory/2ch rumors" excuse, then why should we take anything he says seriously ever again?

Fact is, he lied. Either he lied about the information, or else he lied abut how he got it (saying "I read this book" and "I checked the credits" and then saying, "I was all rumors I read on the internet"...if one is true, the other must be false, right?). And he refuses to admit that he lied about anything, but pulls out this victimhood crap.

If that's good enough for you, great. But you've been acting like you're the reasonable one for being able to forgive and forget, when the truth is that he is still scamming people with his faux apology. As such, I don't think I'm being unreasonable at all.

And why don't you ask him about the time he flew to Japan and interviewed Kawamori himself (or did he just stitch the interview together from various Kawamori interviews that are already out there, with a few bits of his own thrown in)?

Anyway, as I've said, I'm not going to pursue it anymore. Maybe he's learned his lesson. If not, you'll have your work cut out for you soon enough.

And you might want to fix some of his "errors" on the portal, as well.

[WD1]

Anyway, as I've said, I'm not going to pursue it anymore. Maybe he's learned his lesson. If not, you'll have your work cut out for you soon enough.

And you might want to fix some of his "errors" on the portal, as well.

LOL, we'll see in the end, won't we?

Your insistence that the issue is done with (and classifying it as "random flaming") shows me that you don't really understand why the apologies are unacceptable. Plus, "assuming that everything from MG is wrong" is EXACTLY what March is advocating.

The good thing about reading the whole thing is that people can make their own conclusions, I for one think that his point encompasses all Macross discussions, intentionally or unintentionally, I think it is wise, regardless of who tells you what, to double check, right?

Fact is, he lied. Either he lied about the information, or else he lied abut how he got it (saying "I read this book" and "I checked the credits" and then saying, "I was all rumors I read on the internet"...if one is true, the other must be false, right?). And he refuses to admit that he lied about anything, but pulls out this victimhood crap.

If that's good enough for you, great. But you've been acting like you're the reasonable one for being able to forgive and forget, when the truth is that he is still scamming people with his faux apology. As such, I don't think I'm being unreasonable at all.

Here's my issue, with your earlier post, really. It's not whether you agree or disagree with Shaloom's apology, you have made it abundantly clear that you don't, and I respect that. I am not going to change your mind, or try, really, although I will point out he did go out and said "it was all a lie".

When I say you are twisting words, it is by implying that I do not understand why you would want reliable information from now on, or by you choosing to simply use me as an example of what you have to deal by the way you have quoted me so far.

I think that's a bit of a stretch, don't you?

As for your question about the book, you need to remember that I actually don't know much about Macross Books, so even if I had seen the particular book, I would not know it... which I told you and... well, yes, I did say that, I fully admit it, and I stand by it in what I thought I later explained to you clearly: I am not going to be chasing after him to clear it to the point that you want. I don't care to, since it is not going to happen whether I did or not. Thus, life continues. Pedantic, I know.

But, anyway, I feel commenting more would be a borderline provocation to start a real fight over it... listen, just make sure that when you say "WD said this or that" to put up the quote, that's all I ask, ok?

Anyway, read you soon. (BTW, the url?)

Edited August 4, 2009 by WD1

[VFTF1]

You're probably right...but I think a lot of the MG community don't really care about any of this; they just want to talk about Macross, and they'll do it wherever they can.

I dunno. Here in Poland there was a schism in the Transformers community, and four people left the local Transformers board in an uproar and set up their own website.

One year later, that "local Transformers board" has more automatic porn spam adds than members writing in it (and that is not an exageration but literally the truth), while the new website has everybody else except the ONE GUY who was the founder of the old website on it....

The only way Shaloom's MG can survive is NOT through sheeple, but through dedicated fans.

Lemme put it another way:

What is one thing that makes Macross World so attractive to new members or potential members?

Well - look - when you start reading the posts on this website you see:

a) people know have a working knowledge of japanese and do extensive translation work on manga, novels and other items

b) people who have extensive working knowledge of mecha and even have their own websites detailing mecha specs

c) people who have extensive knowledge of collectable goods, large picture galleries of collections, reviews of products that are detailed

d) a large group of people who sell Macross goods at very good prices and are reliable

e) An International Membership - lots of people in Japan. You get a sense that you're part of a really large community here

Now - NONE of this would be possible unless there were actually people here with a passion for Macross rather than just a passing interest.

From the point of view of a newbie or somebody who just is thinking about becoming a member - what website is more attractive to him?

A website with veteran members who are active and offer something interesting... or a website with Shaloom on it, menacingly trying to blot out any mention of this "little misunderstanding?"

It's not true - in my view - that Macross Generations will survive with Shaloom just sweeping this under the rug and counting on legions of gulible new fans to come his way or sustain the website.

I disagree that people who sign up to a Macross board "just want to talk about Macross" - I think they would love to KNOW something about Macross, and to be better and better informed about all of its' aspects.

They will not settle for going "where they can" - they will dig, dig and dig until they find the best place - and if that place ever goes sour - they will go elsewhere.

That is why administrators and moderators always work hard to cultivate the proper atmosphere on their boards; to attract the type of people who will make the boards a worthwhile experience for other members.

None of us is all knowing - every one of us has some kind of contribution here - but let's not kid ourselves; members like Gubaba and Mr. March go over the bounds of just writing an interseting post here or there.

There are also members in the toy forums like Vegas (but not only) who take great pictures of merchandise to give potential buyers a good look at what awaits them. Then there are Jenus's (I think they are his) reviews...

There's a ton of stuff on this board from a ton of people who are enthusiastic.

This Shaloom affair is a cancer on Macross Generations - and so far it appears that the cancer is killing healthy cells rather than being terminated itself.

This will inevitably bring down MG. The site will be dead in a year.

That's my prediction, and I'm willing to bet on it.

Pete

Edited August 4, 2009 by VFTF1

[Renato]

I've been following this issue from the beginning here and on MG, but now I honestly don't understand what's going on anymore. I might be the only one, I don't know.

My understanding so far is that Shaloom is back running MG and I believe WD1 is one of the new mods and/or admin, correct? But his stance is unclear to me.

WD1, you're talking about words being twisted and implications and whatnot, but I cannot see any specifics anywhere. Please simplify exactly what it is you are trying to say, in a concise, clear manner.

As for the blog URL, it's in Gubaba's sig, I hope that's the one you want.

EDITED for clarity (hey, I can't preach what I don't practise!)

Edited August 4, 2009 by Renato

[VFTF1]

The good thing about reading the whole thing is that people can make their own conclusions,

Here's the problem with this:

The goal is not to have people "make their own conclusions." The goal is to learn the truth. Of course it is always best when people "make their own conclusions" to get to the truth. However, sometimes, unforutnately - these two wonderful ideals are in conflict with eachother.

Also - I think it's unfair that someone who does real work to get to the truth is treated equally as someone who just makes up stories.

I like to often times make things up, pretend, play around, write ironic posts, speculate wildly, and gossip. But I am careful to make sure that people know that I am just playing - and if indeed someone takes something I write too seriously, I or others often point out that it's just a joke, or speculation.

Shaloom wrote a lot of stuff and expected it to be taken seriously- it all turned out to be basically pulled out of nowhere with no basis in real work.

Gubaba did real work - real research - to merely CHECK whether or not the information posted by Shaloom was true.

I think Gubaba is entitled to feel a bit let down by the half-hearted "solution" to this situation by (basically) a) being igorned, and then b) being told "oh it was an error now let's stop talking"

What it looks like is that this matter is being treated like a debate about subjective judgements. Shaloom likes hamburgers. Gubaba likes cheeseburgers. They went at it and the mods/admins gave them "freedom" to go at it, and "let people come to their own conclusions" about whether cheesburgers are better than hamburgers - and now Gubaba is being a "sore" player because he hasn't gotten a 100% admission that cheeseburgers are better.

That is NOT a good analogy to this situation.

Rather - it is better to think of it as a debate about health. One person, posing as a doctor, says that if you take pill A, then it will help with your persistant headache problem. Someone else comes along, who is also a doctor, does some research on the pill and tries to warn people that pill A will actually make you vomit uncontrolabbly for a month and a half.

In this case, it is not enough to just "let people come to their own conclusion."

Either the person who recommended pill A did so out of a sincere error - in which case mea culpa and thank you to the other guy who pointed the error out or... the person does what? Refuses to conceede the point? Let's by gones be bygones? Live and let live?

We're not talking about a difference of opinion here - we're talking about facts vs. falsehood and whether or not that falsehood was perpetuated on purpose or not.

In general - you are right. In this world, it is asking to much for people to be gentlemen and sincerely apologize, and for a situation on the internet (especially) to be dealt with properly.

It is usually more likely that people like Gubaba will be treated like flies and allowed to buzz around in the hope that the wind will blow them elsewhere - and people like Shaloom can go back to running their own playground.

But then again - that's kind of like real life - where people also do everything possible to avoid taking personal responsibility and actually making an effort to take positive steps to amend a situation.

Of course - there are exceptions to the rule.

Maybe Macross Generation should consider that it would be good if it were an exception to this sad rule?

Pete

[Gubaba]

Here's my issue, with your earlier post, really. It's not whether you agree or disagree with Shaloom's apology, you have made it abundantly clear that you don't, and I respect that. I am not going to change your mind, or try, really, although I will point out he did go out and said "it was all a lie".

When I say you are twisting words, it is by implying that I do not understand why you would want reliable information from now on, or by you choosing to simply use me as an example of what you have to deal by the way you have quoted me so far.

I think that's a bit of a stretch, don't you?

As for your question about the book, you need to remember that I actually don't know much about Macross Books, so even if I had seen the particular book, I would not know it... which I told you and... well, yes, I did say that, I fully admit it, and I stand by it in what I thought I later explained to you clearly: I am not going to be chasing after him to clear it to the point that you want. I don't care to, since it is not going to happen whether I did or not. Thus, life continues. Pedantic, I know.

But, anyway, I feel commenting more would be a borderline provocation to start a real fight over it... listen, just make sure that when you say "WD said this or that" to put up the quote, that's all I ask, ok?

Anyway, read you soon. (BTW, the url?)

I was trying to give you the benefit of a doubt, really. Because if you DO understand why it's important to determine whether Shaloom was lying or just mistaken, but you refuse to...well, that reflects poorly on you, doesn't it?

But okay, I'll quote you from now on if it becomes more of an issue (which I'm praying it doesn't).

I've been following this issue from the beginning here and on MG, but now I honestly don't understand what's going on anymore. I might be the only one, I don't know.

My understanding so far is that Shaloom is back running MG and I believe WD1 is one of the new mods and/or admin, correct? But his stance is unclear to me.

WD1, you're talking about words being twisted and implications and whatnot, but I cannot see any specifics anywhere. Please simplify exactly what it is you are trying to say, in a concise, clear manner.

Your understadning is correct.

As for the blog URL, it's in Gubaba's sig, I hope that's the one you want.

Ah, man...now I'll NEVER know how long he could go on asking for the url when it's been staring him in the face the whole time...

[VFTF1]

I just want to know one thing:

Where is this fabled "blog" of Gubaba's. eh? I mean - this guy goes on these internet tubes and writes all these posts here and there and it's all supposed to be on a blog or something and ...well? Where's this "blog" eh?

When I gologed "Gubarbar Blog" I get nothing having anything to do with Marcoss.

I'm waiting for this to be explained to me in plane langwage!

Pete

[WD1]

Ah, man...now I'll NEVER know how long he could go on asking for the url when it's been staring him in the face the whole time...

Ah... hehe, missed it, my bad. Since you never answered me or gave me the url by PM I just assumed you didn't want to give it, my apologies.

Gubaba did real work - real research - to merely CHECK whether or not the information posted by Shaloom was true.

I think Gubaba is entitled to feel a bit let down by the half-hearted "solution" to this situation by (basically) a) being igorned, and then b) being told "oh it was an error now let's stop talking"

Don't get me wrong everyone, I have never claimed that Gubaba was wrong with his investigation, and I have no intention to do it now, Gubaba himself can attest to that, at least.

Anyway, thanks for your time Gubaba, I'll take a deeper look at your blog at a later date, since it is, well, not much right now.

If you manage to create that project you were talking about I am sure it will be pretty cool.

In the meantime, this has been an interesting social experiment, thank you too for that... Now I can see the appeal of prolonging useless fights and fully appreciate your position! However, I personally can't stay interested in doing so for more than a few days.

So good luck, and don't expect an answer here though... RL is a bit on the heavy side for me, but if you leave a PM I'll do my best to get back to you, it's the least I can do for the fun times and... it will give you fodder to complain more.

Keep it cool man!

Edited August 4, 2009 by WD1

[Mr March]

Your insistence that the issue is done with (and classifying it as "random flaming") shows me that you don't really understand why the apologies are unacceptable. Plus, "assuming that everything from MG is wrong" is EXACTLY what March is advocating.

Just to clarify my position, I originally stated that everything coming from MG is "tainted" by Shaloom's ownership/operation. This does not mean MG is magically all wrong in everything they do, including material pre-dating this fiasco. It means that as I stated, I'm writing off the website as a credible source of Macross information from this point forward. Everything going through or originating from MG from now on is treated as suspect.

Moral of the story; Shaloom is untrustworthy and therefore his actions (as authority on MG) promote a website which is untrustworthy as a source of information.

Which, as I said, is the tragedy of having someone as deceitful and willfully irresponsible as Shaloom exercising ultimate control over that community. And is pretty much the only form of protest left to the Macross community, after he unilaterally backed his critics into a corner. Harsh or not, it's the only way left to enforce some kind of discipline and responsibility upon Shaloom, who so far is ardently determined to avoid any and all responsibility for his actions.

Edited August 4, 2009 by Mr March

[Gubaba]

Don't get me wrong everyone, I have never claimed that Gubaba was wrong with his investigation, and I have no intention to do it now, Gubaba himself can attest to that, at least.

And I will happily attest to that. The "Ohnogi Question" is entirely settled, even at MG. My thread about it is still open*, and no one has banned me from MG or anything of the sort.

Where WD1 and I have our differences is in Shaloom's culpability, whether his apology was genuine, and what steps should be taken to prevent this happening in the future.

WD1's position (as I understand it): the apology was enough, Shaloom was mistaken, and if it happens again, combat bad information with good information.

My position is that I'm not sure WD1 understands how difficult it was to find enough info to prove Shaloom wrong the first time. He made his sources impossible to check, and so I had to look for contradictory info...which mostly involved looking at interviews, laboriously translating them, and trying to find places where Ohnogi *should* have been referred to, but wasn't.

Shaloom's big mistake was saying that he checked the credits. I doubt he'll make that mistake twice.

When Shaloom says (as he did), "I have an old magazine from 1983 where Ohnogi says Kawamori wanted a 'triangler ending' for the original SDFM," how exactly are we supposed to combat that? As far as I can tell, Kawamori doesn't say anything remotely like it in "Perfect Memroy," but he doesn't say anything that contradicts it, either.

Seems like it's easier for me to ask Shaloom to show sources instead. But he won't listen to me, since I'm apparently his "cyberstalker."

Which means it's easiest just to ignore anything he says unless he backs it up with sources. I think pretty much the entire Macross fandom would agree with me here.

@March: Was I wrong in my inference that you were taking a harder-line stance towards MG than I was? If so, I apologize.

Still, I find it pretty weird that WD1 was using you to club me, considering that you and I are pretty much on the same page here...

* EDIT: As of Aug. 10, the "Ohnogi Question" thread at MG is locked. That was the last of four threads on the site discussing the issue to stay open. Now all of them of them are closed.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Gubaba

[Mr March]

Perhaps, but it all depends upon how serious we're taking this situation. I think you've done a fantastic job exposing this whole fiasco, but in the end it was a frustrated Macross fan telling fibs. The situation itself is not a big deal, but to me the big deal lies in Shalooms authority, his abuse of trust and his likelihood to continue spreading lies through his control of MG.

I don't believe this aftermath is worth getting that worked up. However, it is a good time to take stock in what's happened, what Shaloom has/has-not done and what each of us is doing about it. For my part, I'm not going to let it bother me, but I am definitely impugning MG as long as Shaloom controls it. That's my solution, your mileage may vary. But however it does, you've earned our respect eternal.

[Gubaba]

Perhaps, but it all depends upon how serious we're taking this situation. I think you've done a fantastic job exposing this whole fiasco, but in the end it was a frustrated Macross fan telling fibs. The situation itself is not a big deal, but to me the big deal lies in Shalooms authority, his abuse of trust and his likelihood to continue spreading lies through his control of MG.

I don't believe this aftermath is worth getting that worked up. However, it is a good time to take stock in what's happened, what Shaloom has/has-not done and what each of us is doing about it. For my part, I'm not going to let it bother me, but I am definitely impugning MG as long as Shaloom controls it. That's my solution, your mileage may vary. But however it does, you've earned our respect eternal.

As for me, I'm just sick of the whole thing.

If I could go back and change anything, I wouldn't have posted on MG. It seems to have caused a lot pain for everyone EXCEPT Shaloom.

The fibs are important to me, being as they involved a lot of material that I was diligently searching for (and some I even bought) when I still believed the "liner notes." But the "Ohnogi writing Frontier" portion was, as you say, no big deal, except to Anime Suki Forums and Final Vegeta.

As for Shaloom himself...well, you summed it up well. And the fact that he put a warning up on MG that all members should verify their info before they post is just laughable.

I guess what's most distressing is that, for a while, nearly everyone believed the Egan Loo-wannabe, and now none of us know how much info to trust and how much info to discard. The situation is still a colossal mess, and it's shocking just HOW MUCH of our info about the behind-the-scenes stuff on Frontier came from Shaloom. (He also gave a lot of info about Zero...I wonder if any of THAT ended up here as well?)

And the fact that he still has defenders just seems insane to me.

[TheLoneWolf]

Like I said before, from this point on, I consider any information that comes from the Macross Generation forums as heresay until it can be verified. Other than that, I still think that most of the folks over there are great guys and would hate to see a Macross World / Macross Generation feud emerge.

When Shaloom says (as he did), "I have an old magazine from 1983 where Ohnogi says Kawamori wanted a 'triangler ending' for the original SDFM," how exactly are we supposed to combat that?

With the Macross Compendium. Last I checked, the Production information on SDFM was pretty sparse over there. But if the amount of cited information could be increased, I think it would help contain a lot of the fabrications that Shaloom cooks up in the future, such as your 'triangular ending' example. The main reason Shaloom's lies are so easily spread on the Internet is due to the lack of verifiable and readily accessable Macross information.

[Mr March]

As for me, I'm just sick of the whole thing.

If I could go back and change anything, I wouldn't have posted on MG. It seems to have caused a lot pain for everyone EXCEPT Shaloom.

The fibs are important to me, being as they involved a lot of material that I was diligently searching for (and some I even bought) when I still believed the "liner notes." But the "Ohnogi writing Frontier" portion was, as you say, no big deal, except to Anime Suki Forums and Final Vegeta.

As for Shaloom himself...well, you summed it up well. And the fact that he put a warning up on MG that all members should verify their info before they post is just laughable.

I guess what's most distressing is that, for a while, nearly everyone believed the Egan Loo-wannabe, and now none of us know how much info to trust and how much info to discard. The situation is still a colossal mess, and it's shocking just HOW MUCH of our info about the behind-the-scenes stuff on Frontier came from Shaloom. (He also gave a lot of info about Zero...I wonder if any of THAT ended up here as well?)

And the fact that he still has defenders just seems insane to me.

I sympathize, especially since you and bishopcruz had to put so much work into this. I'd be sick of it too.

However, I wouldn't change anything you did, especially posting on MG about the whole debacle. In fact, I'd go so far as to say you handled the situation as well as it could ever be expected. The end result is much less important than the truth being posted.

And quite honestly, sometimes things have to get worse before they can get better.

[Gubaba]

Like I said before, from this point on, I consider any information that comes from the Macross Generation forums as heresay until it can be verified. Other than that, I still think that most of the folks over there are great guys and would hate to see a Macross World / Macross Generation feud emerge.

I don't think anyone on either site is advocating a site war.

Now, if Shaloom had come out and said all of his Ohnogi info were true, and I was ust trying to slander him, if might have been a different story. Luckily, he DID come out and say it was all false.

Crisis averted, thank goodness.

With the Macross Compendium. Last I checked, the Production information on SDFM was pretty sparse over there. But if the amount of cited information could be increased, I think it would help contain a lot of the fabrications that Shaloom cooks up in the future, such as your 'triangular ending' example. The main reason Shaloom's lies are so easily spread on the Internet is due to the lack of verifiable and readily accessable Macross information.

Even if you translate ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING out there, it might not stop. Remember, Shaloom fabricated sources, from books to magazines to doujinshi. Compiling a complete account of Macross books? Hard work, but do-able. Including magazines? Possibly. Including doujinshi? No one could do that.

Add to this the fact that Shaloom had said that Macross World and the Macross Compendium were both incomplete and unreliable, and you have an environment which makes it easy for anyone to create sources whole cloth.

Asking for scans of the sources works up to a point. I sometimes refer to old issues of Animag and Animerica, but I don't have easy access to the issues themselves (they're in storage), so anything I say about them will be colored by memory issues AND lack of a scan. Does that mean I should never refer to them?

As I've said before, this has a real impact on how I do translations. I don't feel like I can simply rely on the goodwill of Macross Worlders any more, and I really need to start backing stuff up. But how to do that for people who don't know any Japanese? My solution for the Yoshino interview (type out the whole thing in Japanese, so that anyone can copy and paste it into Goggle Translate, and provide scans so that anyone can make sure that the typed version is accurate) is impractical for something like a novel.

I know I'm overthinking this, but I want to make sure that all my translations can be easily verified. And I'm not sure how.

I sympathize, especially since you and bishopcruz had to put so much work into this. I'd be sick of it too.

However, I wouldn't change anything you did, especially posting on MG about the whole debacle. In fact, I'd go so far as to say you handled the situation as well as it could ever be expected. The end result is much less important than the truth being posted.

And quite honestly, sometimes things have to get worse before they can get better.

You may be right, of course.

I'd like to think the info would've filtered over there anyway. Having the messenger be someone they know and trust might've helped.

Still, spilt milk and all that...

And it's not like I'm completely out of it yet...I'm writing up a little account of the mess for Anime Suki, and I'll probably eventually have to address the issue at Galaxy Network.

THEN I'll be done.

[azrael]

Even if you translate ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING out there, it might not stop. Remember, Shaloom fabricated sources, from books to magazines to doujinshi. Compiling a complete account of Macross books? Hard work, but do-able. Including magazines? Possibly. Including doujinshi? No one could do that.

Add to this the fact that Shaloom had said that Macross World and the Macross Compendium were both incomplete and unreliable, and you have an environment which makes it easy for anyone to create sources whole cloth.

Asking for scans of the sources works up to a point. I sometimes refer to old issues of Animag and Animerica, but I don't have easy access to the issues themselves (they're in storage), so anything I say about them will be colored by memory issues AND lack of a scan. Does that mean I should never refer to them?

I've seen this problem on the Gundam-side of things. With as many fans and all these translators out there, I see very, very, very low amounts of Gundam knowledge translated. There's just too much ground to cover. No one is going to spend enormous amounts of money or time to find every morsel of Macross material out there. Time and money are finite. And eventually, something will slip through the cracks. It's a similar issue I'm discussing on another board. Someone wants to verify a blog posting about a magazine article from 5 years ago. At this point, it's gonna be really hard to verify because the magazine issue it old enough to be hard to find and not enough people remember the article anymore.

As I've said before, this has a real impact on how I do translations. I don't feel like I can simply rely on the goodwill of Macross Worlders any more, and I really need to start backing stuff up. But how to do that for people who don't know any Japanese? My solution for the Yoshino interview (type out the whole thing in Japanese, so that anyone can copy and paste it into Goggle Translate, and provide scans so that anyone can make sure that the typed version is accurate) is impractical for something like a novel.

I know I'm overthinking this, but I want to make sure that all my translations can be easily verified. And I'm not sure how.

Sure you can posts blocks of text, but will it help? Do you really want to posts blocks of text and scans? I don't think you're gonna transcribe an entire book online and then scan it just for good measure. There is no good solution to it except for people to go out, get their own copy and translate it themselves and verify with your translation. And I doubt people will do that.

[Gubaba]

I've seen this problem on the Gundam-side of things. With as many fans and all these translators out there, I see very, very, very low amounts of Gundam knowledge translated. There's just too much ground to cover. No one is going to spend enormous amounts of money or time to find every morsel of Macross material out there. Time and money are finite. And eventually, something will slip through the cracks. It's a similar issue I'm discussing on another board. Someone wants to verify a blog posting about a magazine article from 5 years ago. At this point, it's gonna be really hard to verify because the magazine issue it old enough to be hard to find and not enough people remember the article anymore.

Yeah...Macross is a piece of cake compared to Gundam...talk about a nightmare of impossible to catalogue (and often contradictory) information...

Sure you can posts blocks of text, but will it help? Do you really want to posts blocks of text and scans? I don't think you're gonna transcribe an entire book online and then scan it just for good measure. There is no good solution to it except for people to go out, get their own copy and translate it themselves and verify with your translation. And I doubt people will do that.

Agreed. It worked for the Yoshino interview when I posted it at AnimeSuki, because a member there asked for it. I doubt anyone went to the trouble of actually verifying it, though. I think the one thing in my favor is that all of the books I have on the checklist to translate are widely (and cheaply) available. Plus, I know that at least a few members here have read them.

If I ever DID get my hands on (say) some doujinshi story written by one of the official staff members, I'd definitely feel like I would HAVE to post a scan, just to make sure everyone knows it's all on the level.

[VFTF1]

Gubaba - there's also one other thing that people can use to judge whether information is on the level or not - and it's NOT posting source material or scans... it's actually just the willingness to engage in conversation.

If someone started digging to check YOUR sources and came up with something that brought into question anything you'd written, I highly doubt you'd run away and put your head in the sand, and then come back a couple of weeks later with a long letter about being at work, not having access to the boards, having your grandmother ask you to clean her apartment, the weather being poor, needing to get your car fixed and oh you were just kidding or in error about some of what you wrought but no big deal now let's forget about it and by the way I'm changing the admins on the site.

I think that for most people - a more important indicator that they have a reliable source is just the willingness to continue the discussion. People who are just interested in something and share what information they have usually react with HAPPINESS when someone else comes along to question the validity of that information. This is because the goal here is to know more about the Macross series you love, so anyone who can contribute to that is good.

I guess my point here is - you actualyl don't need to suddenly feel obliged to post copious scans of everything and footnote your posts.

It's enough that when doubt comes up, you (or anyone) is able to point to a source.

No need to let this Shaloom's behavior create a paranoia where anyone who wants to share information from original Japanese sources now suddenly will be faced with skepticism and required to "prove" everything from the get go. We need some common sense trust here - and one bad incident shouldn't shake that.

Honestly - I would prefer that people like you spend their time just working on material like you have been and don't get overly burdened or paranoid about referencing EVERYTHING so that nobody can accuse you of "making stuff up"

In the end, if someone makes a mistake or overlooks something - which can always happen - and another person corrects him in time - that is to be welcomed.

Pete

[Isamu test pilot]

Hi, I am one of the users of MG...

I read all the post in this topic and in MG about all this stuff and I want to thanks to Gubaba...

Because of you I could find the truth about so many things that Shaloom said and I though that things were wrong but I was lazy to find out the truth by myself... and I feel like a big fool for not make my own research and only believe to his post with my eyes wide shut... but well that is my fault...

Please let me write the follow, I want to discharge myself, but it is like a resume of all everyone already know by now, then if you want to read it please see the spoiler:

The point is that for more than 8 months in MG all users were talking about the Ohnogi's scripts for Macross Frontier but more than that in others things about the Ohnogi's job in the Macross series, for example, shaloom posted (and made a video clip of one scene of Macross Plus) about the suppose scripts Ohnogi made for Macross Plus or for Macross TV series ep 27 or others and in his topic of Liner Notes in MG he posted a very complex interview from a suppose MBS's radio show where "Bobby Margo" ask several questions to Ohnogi about his job in MF

that interview is too detailed, too big and well structured, so where is the audio file?, another, I am not sure but I remember he thanks to the MAT Sky Angels in one post for something they sent him and for still considering him as a part of they, but I do not know so much about the MAT sky angels, so it is possible? the MAt sky Angels sill exist? and he wrote in one of his post that a friend from Japan gave him as a present the 15 volumes of the Studio Nue Entertainment Bible, so he is saying that he had these books in hand, so why not show a low res. picture or the ISBN numbers... he said he can not prove it then all the info is FALSE, then he really do not have that books because the books never exist?, that's no an error, that's a lie, but then why? for me all that are really a big deal.

The most important for me was that (I completely support Gubaba here) shaloom said "I read" "I listened" "I translate" "I have" "I talking to" "I check", like the credits where he posted that he check it and translated then he knew the script were made by Ohnogi.

Just to clarify my position, I originally stated that everything coming from MG is "tainted" by Shaloom's ownership/operation. This does not mean MG is magically all wrong in everything they do, including material pre-dating this fiasco. It means that as I stated, I'm writing off the website as a credible source of Macross information from this point forward. Everything going through or originating from MG from now on is treated as suspect.

Moral of the story; Shaloom is untrustworthy and therefore his actions (as authority on MG) promote a website which is untrustworthy as a source of information.

Which, as I said, is the tragedy of having someone as deceitful and willfully irresponsible as Shaloom exercising ultimate control over that community. And is pretty much the only form of protest left to the Macross community, after he unilaterally backed his critics into a corner. Harsh or not, it's the only way left to enforce some kind of discipline and responsibility upon Shaloom, who so far is ardently determined to avoid any and all responsibility for his actions.

Mr March, I am completely agree you man, please let me share you guys my point of view...

shaloom made a lot of mistakes, for me is clear that he is a big liar in a lot of things and I know he already apologized to MG community but that apologizes are not enough for me because the shaloom's mistakes are really big, not only for a simple "not big deal, just forget about it like nothing happened and go on" and the things that recently happened in MG are stupid... , there are some guys defending his friend with weird and childish attitudes without any good reason or any good argument, for example "MG user x: What happen with the... ; answer: what? o it was an error and it's a shiny day"

Of course that is my personal opinion and the way I see the situation there, the things of MG are of MG but I mentioned it because for me the things that happened after the Ohnogi question are the real ones that are damaging MG. The wrong stuff that shaloom made concerns only to himself, his actions only damage to himself, but he is acting with a non sense pride, like he does not matter at all, the big abuse of authority and ownership about MG and the irrational actions about MG, it seems like he does not have the courage to face the situation like a man, only trying to avoid it. The result of all this... MG is being damaged unfairly... a pity... so sad

In MG there a lot of great guys that everyday post their info, real and truth info that could be check it anytime for anyone, I think all this is unfair for them and for the guys that worked so hard for MG, because MG is not only shaloom, actually it is too much bigger than him and I think he does not deserve MG. I am too disappointed about him and the situation there that I prefer to rarely visit MG or perhaps go away from MG for a time (perhaps never come back) while he controls it, I don't know yet . But at the end I am sick of this and I won't care about shaloom anymore, I won't believe him anymore, I hope MG could go on after all this... my truth desires... my best wishes for MG. This is the last time I talk about this topic in forums because I won't loose my time anymore and I discharged myself already

But the result of all this in my case is the lesson I've learned, now I made my own researches with the stuff I have or I could get or find in good resources in the web, I won't be lazy with my hobby anymore.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Isamu test pilot

[Moani Ikaika]

I'm one of the old users of MG and I am really pissed off.

First of all

Because sometimes I've beeing fooled by Shaloom with a History that he actually meet the staff of Macross during the time he used to live in Japan. Story that has been told to many members via MSN and every time he change the main character sometimes was Ohnogui, sometimes, Kawamori itself or Mikimoto or Hidetaka Tenjin.

Second

Shaloom sometimes ask to not tell some info to the rest of the community because in his own words They are to lazzy to find the truth by themselves and they are not worth it of that kind of information.

My third point.

The suddenly change of MG staff, persons like wanderer d and inu are not fans of macross they are a bunch of shaloom friends who do what they tought that its the best for his own interest actually they have another forum problem a n x box forum issues be unsolved just like MG.

why do not put some familiar faces on the staff, persons who prove to be really macross fans.

The importance of MG is because there is not a reliable source in latinamerica for macross, and many latinamerican fans still has a big confuse between Macross and Robotech.

Add this problem that many of MG users don't speak english and of curse if they do not speak english they do not speak japanese.

So I am not visiting that website anymore and hope that people can trully see what kind of people Shaloom really is. Figure this the website isn't registered by his real name he uses his alias Omar Peimbert and not his given name that says and explians a lot of things don't you think?

[Alex]

I'm starting to think that the name 'SHALOOM" is a clue. A "LOOM" of "SHAM"?

I may have had too much sugar this morning.