The Ohnogi Question

[Zinjo]

Well it appears to me that many on MG are feeling quite betrayed at the moment. A trusted source of information about Macross has been proven to have published false information (willfully or inadvertently has yet to be revealed). There will be anger and bitterness toward Shaloom for quite some time, if not indefinitely.

He has taken his position of leadership and trust and betrayed his fellow Spanish speaking fans with false information. I suspect the same would happen here if one or several of our translators were to do the same thing.

It is unfortunate.

I believe we should be ready and willing to share the information we are priviledged to gain from our translation team with MG, to fill the void that shaloom has now left, as Gubaba has already posted.

We are all fans here and if we don't support each other's communities then what would become of our favorite franchise out here? We don't have the same level of information access as our Japanese counterparts do, so we work with what we have. What we create for our communities should and must be above reproach for our own sakes.

At MW we are very fortunate to have the likes of Gubaba, Sketchley and the other translators who contribute regularly for our benefit. I would encourage our Spanish speaking members to pass on their gems of information to our friends at MG, so they benefit as much as we do.

Edited July 1, 2009 by Zinjo

[Gubaba]

At MW we are very fortunate to have the likes of Gubaba, Sketchley and the other translators who contribute regularly for our benefit. I would encourage our Spanish speaking members to pass on their gems of information to our friends at MG, so they benefit as much as we do.

And I don't know about anyone else, but this whole fiasco has made me rethink the way I do my translations.

If it's a normal, widely available source (like Macross Chronicle, or Macross Ace, or CD liner notes, or the novels) then it's business as usual, but if it's something rarer (like a magazine interview, especially an old one), then I will post scans of it along with the translation.

[VFTF1]

My comments:

Well, here I am.

There are many things to be said, and many things to be explained.

Even though by the 3 threads I’ve read I see that many have already judged me, made their own conclusions, and determined attitudes due to my presence in other channels: Twitter, youtube, other forums I frequent, etc.

First fact. I decided not to come to MG in the last 3 weeks.

Why? Because I decided to prioritize other things.

I’ve invested money in other forums and projects that demanded the attention of my short free time. And, under my own criteria, I’ve decided to tend those sites before coming here.

Just on Saturday I took notice of the huge snowball rolling here. So I decided to copy all your posts and I’ve read them the whole weekend.

In these 3 weeks I haven’t logged on MG nor MSN [translator note: Windows Live Messenger, IM system similar to AIM, popular to the point of ubiquity in Latin America]; I decided to shut off the last one by the recommendation of my boss at the office, and, for the ones who know me, I’m not very prone to connect on the evenings unless I was working in my PC (due to MSN logging in automatically [when I turn the PC on]).

Secondly, as the staff has known for more than a month and a half (but you didn’t), I am starting a new major. Not a Master’s Degree, not a Certification, an entirely new major. And my schedule has became tighter. I try not to turn on my computer at night because I want to sleep at least 8 hours. Of which, on a good day, I get 6 thanks to my work, school, research, etc. schedule.

If I play xbox live, it has been on Friday nights, which I’ve been doing for... 5 years. Actually, I’ve mentioned it on the forum many times, and many forum members have added me to their gamertag lists. By the way, I played with the member ‘goca’ last Friday, and he didn’t tell me anything about this issue. I guess that, as many members of the forum, ‘goca’ hasn’t come here in months. So, also he didn’t know about this issue.

The third point. About my twitter, yes, I made it private... I made it private because at my work they were “checking it out” (and I will keep it like that). As the lurkers that read it know, I wrote (among chats and fun things) work related stuff. That upset my superiors. That was a mistake on my part because I didn’t know that the nickname was known by the people at my work, or that people at work used twitter (I guess that writing my name next to my nickname didn’t help). But if many think that I made it private to “hide,” well, that’s your belief. I just received friends request from rickhunter21 and I authorized him to read my Twitter. I invite Iker to befriend me if he is interested in knowing what I do, as well as all the MG members that use this tool.

I applaud Iker’s and bauhaus 45’s opinions, but I don’t share them. With this I don’t mean to say that I disapprove them. I applaud them because I would have done the same, but I’d have done a little more. I would have call their cell or home phones and talked about it. I wouldn’t have written my opinion on a forum if I hadn’t talked to them in 3 weeks, specially when they even know my house. They have been there, and as Mexicans say, “we have drunk together,” equivalent to “we know everything about you.” When I was reading the posts this weekend, I thought that both had had the cold head to establish personal priorities apart from the things that are said in a forum, but after reading their opinions, well I don’t know what to think anymore.

Having that personal communication channel, I would have liked to know their opinions, or at least get phone calls, if this was growing rapidly (“Hey, you ****head, show up in the forum!”) But that didn’t happen. They know where I live, know where [t.n.: it should be “when” instead of “where”] I speak, and if I don’t sign on MSN is for a reason. In this moment, signed on MSN (exceptionally, and abusing the absence of my boss) I have no communication with them. Not even a hello. I can say that I feel personally disappointed with them. But I applaud their professional action in the website and the way they are handling this issue. I reiterate, I would have done the same, although I’d have done a little more.

If you feel betrayed, iker, I’m sorry. I ignore why you take it to that level the fact being that you have the door open at my house to ask me directly and find out what could happen. I could today mark many reasons why I also feel betrayed. But I leave this forum apart, being it a virtual environment, from the person who you are; and I thus prefer to preserve the person who you are away from here. After all, the experiences we have lived pay me a million times more and better than what you have done in this forum. Because even after that outburst, I consider my dear good friend, you know it, as well as hector, erick (who called me and knows even a little more than what I say in this topic) and other friends who minded enough to call me or visit me to ask why I was not in MSN (Jorge Pratt for example).

In this moment I’m not an admin nor moderator (maybe they thought I’d erase messages all over the place, or I’d ban everybody in the forum), there are more than 500 PMs that I have to go over and I cannot read them until I clear my inbox. I’ve seen that users have sent me PMs asking about forum support; I ask them to sent these questions to Bauhaus or Iker, who have the power to help you. I don’t know if I’ll get that status back. That is their decision, and yours, MG community.

As why I didn’t come, I’ve explained it already. Reading emails I see also that many people assume I should live chained to the forum. I hope you know that at least in this moment it is impossible for me to visit the forum like I used to.

Oh my God. And I thought I knew how to BS. You forgot to write how many times you had to go to the bathroom, what deoderant you use, how long you had to wait for the stop light to turn green, how you couldn't find any clean socks on weds... aka - NONE OF THIS has ANYTHING to do with the subject.

If I was in your shoes, I'd start my response with evidence to back up my claims, not long stories about nothing. Is the purpose of this long winded post meant to make 70% of potential, casual readers who are also Macross fans lose interest? Stop reading? Decide there's better things to do?

About Ohnogi:

I could write a mountain of why I write these things

But instead - you wrote a mountain of BS that could have fit into one sentence "sorry I didn't respond earlier; I was very busy - now here's my response about Ohnogi....

To Gubaba (a tremendous Macross fan), I say to him I appreciate his presence here and I’m sorry for the amount of time he lost by following/translating this information. I, in the personal level, admire him a lot because from that old Macross World he took the job of broadcasting information to the community. And many of my years as a fan and the way I broadcast the information myself is similar to his methods.

This paragraph came right after you spent two paragraphs rambling about how you never check sources, how you were just speculating, and how it's other people's fault for taking at face value the things that you wrote. And THEN you actually write that YOUR methods are similar to Gubaba's - the guy who DOES check sources, who always cites sources, who always does all the hard work to try to provide accurate information. HOW is this a compliment? "Hey Gubaba - you're great because you're just like me (oh - except you check your sources while I don't).

I’m neither trying to negate what cannot be negated and believe that with a single post I can revert this

That was made clear somewhere in the forty trillionth paragraph of this "essay" response which doesn't even make the courtesy of referencing even ONE of Gubaba's arguments.

Sum Up Commentary:

As far as apologies go - I guess on the one hand it's always praiseworthy when someone apologizes, but on the other hand the more words you use, the more stories you tell that have nothing to do with the point, and the more you use passive voice to apologize the less of a positive impact it makes.

Final point:

"I'm sorry the gun went off."

"I'm sorry I fired the gun."

VERY VERY big difference between those two apologies.

Pete

[Mr March]

Thoroughly despicable. Even in the face of complete exposure, Shaloom is still lying, making excuses and, worst of all, blaming Gubaba and other protesters as "stalkers." It's been a long time since I've seen someone so totally exposed as a fraud and still evade responsibility to the bitter end. Shameful doesn't even begin to describe Shaloom's behaviour.

Now, my opinion.

He got cornered by Gubaba, and actually by not having any solid response, mounted all this ridiculous "defense" posts explaining things nobody cares about.

And he do that twice.

At least he admits his info was false from the very beginning, but it seems like he doesn't really see the damage he did to the community, because A LOT of people changed their visions of Macross F and the staff involved on it, by reading his liner notes, translated interviews, etc.

That's the mayor thing that bothers me the most, he even said at some point "for the ones who wanna post that all is false in other involved forums, go ahead and do it, because I won't", like saying "i don't care".

Anyway, the admins and several users of MG are questioning his reactions to all this. That's a very good signal.

Well, Mercurial Morpheus is right, it's time to move on.

And finally, quoting Gubaba too, "getting this guy to be honest is like getting blood from a stone"

So, even when Gubaba doesn't got all the answers, i believe this is over.

Well said.

It's clear Shaloom is never going to accept responsibility and he is still blaming others. As such, there's little else that the Macross fan community can do but express it's outrage against Shaloom. On that issue, Fuun is right, most of us have little to gain further in this affair. I will say I am grateful some MG members and the MG staff took action against Shaloom and I'm very thankful you continue to criticize his half-hearted apologies.

[VFTF1]

I just wanna add another couple'a words as someone who doesn't speak Japanese, doesn't read japanese and has no clue about Japan:

People like Gubaba, Shaloom and other translators have the power to waste my life.

Often times, much is said about how much people sacrifice as fans when they do tons of work for no pay out of love for a series or movie.

But what doesn't often get said and needs to be given this situation is how many OTHER people sacrifice to listen to the above guys, to read their posts, to follow their every word, to respect them and to look to them for guidance.

Just because there's no money being exchanged doesn't mean there's nothing of value being traded here - and what is really terrible about what this Shaloom fellow did is that he TRAPPED a bunch of Spanish speaking people - many of whom presumably maybe don't speak or read english or if they do, do so at a level that is not perfect and comfortable - into HIS WORLD.

Think about it - what if you got interested in Macross, but you're Spanish, or Chilean or (insert Spanish-speaking nationality) you don't speak Japanese and your english is at a medium level. You also don't have a lot of time due to work/life and so you can't sit there with a dictionary reading posts on MW.

Oh - lo and behold - you have a Spanish language sight. Great! This means that now he language barrier won't stop you from also being in the know about your favorite anime.

And then it turns out that the guy who set the site up has basically been selling you unverified bull. You thought you knew stuff, you thought you were reading meaningful things - you thought you were keeping up with what the world was keeping up with from Tokyo to Toronto - and suddenly it turns out that you weren't.

I don't agree with people who say this is a problem with Shaloom and not MG.

This HURT Macross Generation and hurt the Spanish Macross fandom because an obvious question arises:

How much else on that website is false? How much else is misinformation? How many other people out there think they know something but instead have the wrong information?

My point is just to say that lots of people put a lot of heart into being fans and usually we tend to think that if you are a fan on the recieving end then it's not a big effort...

But that's not true. Just like the fans who translate stuff, run websites, keep us informed and buy magazines or make fan-subs for us are precious - so too the legions of people who READ the stuff, comment on it, ask for more, show interest are even more precious.

What Shaloom did hurts his forum, hurts the Spanish Macross fandom and it hurts Macross as a whole.

Honest mistakes are always forgivable - especially in anime-fandom.

Jokes - even really mean jokes or jokes that get out of hand are also - IMO - forgivable.

But this guy wasted lots of peoples' time.

For MW it might have been an interesting mystery - but I'm thinking now of the Spanish fans at MG who have who knows what sort of notions and misunderstandings about Macross.

It's really really really a shame.

Why go to the effort of making a Website to promote Macross and to organize Spanish Macross fans and then hurt them like this?

Could it have been that at some point Shaloom just noticed that people beleived ANYTHING he said and it started going to his head?

That's what it sounds like to me. When you notice that people who you're talking to are 100% relying on you for info - for the meat of the discussion - then you maybe start to exagerate - and one exageration builds into the next - and pretty soon you've created a fairy tale where you're bosoom buddies with Kawamori, are working on a new CD mix with Kanno, and have detailed knowledge of the plot to the new Macross Frontier movie before anybody else does... You also think you are totally safe because your fandom is Spanish speaking and therefore "isolated" in the sense that nobody from Japan or America is going to pop into your forum and understand what falsehoods you are writing about.

I dunno - I can only speculate...

In any event... this event has stopped being funny to me.

Particularly - and I have to add this - that the guy mentions that he is working on a Masters Degree and on other websites.

This might be offensive - but given the half-assed apology I don't really care: I wonder if Shaloom does his academic work on his Master's Degree with the same academic standards with which he has conducted himself in this Ohnogi affair? I wonder if, when writing his Master's Degree, he "speculates" and writes "from memory" or whether he actually cites sources and gives credit where it is due?

I personally do not find it at all amusing what this guy has done - particularly now that hi "apology" has emerged - and it is an insulting apology. Insulting to the fans - especially to the people at Macross Generations - because it explains nothing. It sounds disengaged. It sounds passive, like this really wasn't happening, isn't happening, doesn't matter - like it's no big deal.

It is a huge deal.

And Mr. March is right - Shaloom should do something CONSTRUCTIVE to apologize. I am truly sorry for Spanish fans and for all fans who rely on really just a few select individuals who take the time to give us all information.

Fan Translators are right - they deserve respect for doing so much for so little.

But in this case - the fandom at MG was treated with utter disrespect - and normal everyday fans also deserve respect; they deserve not to be toyed with, lied to and misled by people that they trust.

If most fans are like me, they log onto their respective fan site to read people like Gubbaba's work with more frequency than they log onto the news, the stock market, the futures market, the sports news - whatever - and just like when newspapers fib or talking heads talk crap or have conflicting interest it enrages people - so too what Shaloom did is really low.

I kind of got this feeling only after chewing on his apology letter for a bit longer.

Pete

[DeX-kun]

Actually, now that I think about it, when the "liner notes" were first being released, I was curious as to why MW didn't have all this information already and why it was the Spanish community receiving it first. I'm not saying that the Spanish is incapable of receiving this information first but I found it strange that they were the only community that had received that information.

Aside from that, I found it ironic that I'm beginning to see a pattern within Shaloom's responses that are similar to the "liner notes." He mixed relevant statements with irrelevant stories

[mxhz]

Actually, now that I think about it, when the "liner notes" were first being released, I was curious as to why MW didn't have all this information already and why it was the Spanish community receiving it first. I'm not saying that the Spanish is incapable of receiving this information first but I found it strange that they were the only community that had received that information.

Aside from that, I found it ironic that I'm beginning to see a pattern within Shaloom's responses that are similar to the "liner notes." He mixed relevant statements with irrelevant stories

For me, its simple, as many of people in MG just speak spanish, is common we like easy info, less work is better.

Others maybe like me just fail in believe what he said, because its difficult to doubt when you cant access to Japan information..well, we can access but cant understand. Also in that period of time, there was a lot of info being generated. Maybe if you dont work, youre out of school, etc.. you can get enough time to be in full with that.

But what I THINK is the main reason, maybe as a LatinAmerca characteristic, most of the time we believe what we receive, we dont take the time or the initiative to search or verify the information. We accept the first we get. Maybe Im wrong.

Most of the time I search info in what Im interested. About Macross i have interest, but maybe not enough to look in other places, there was the info I want.

[stray]

Just because there's no money being exchanged doesn't mean there's nothing of value being traded here - and what is really terrible about what this Shaloom fellow did is that he TRAPPED a bunch of Spanish speaking people - many of whom presumably maybe don't speak or read english or if they do, do so at a level that is not perfect and comfortable - into HIS WORLD.

Think about it - what if you got interested in Macross, but you're Spanish, or Chilean or (insert Spanish-speaking nationality) you don't speak Japanese and your english is at a medium level. You also don't have a lot of time due to work/life and so you can't sit there with a dictionary reading posts on MW.

Oh - lo and behold - you have a Spanish language sight. Great! This means that now he language barrier won't stop you from also being in the know about your favorite anime.

And then it turns out that the guy who set the site up has basically been selling you unverified bull. You thought you knew stuff, you thought you were reading meaningful things - you thought you were keeping up with what the world was keeping up with from Tokyo to Toronto - and suddenly it turns out that you weren't.

I don't agree with people who say this is a problem with Shaloom and not MG.

This HURT Macross Generation and hurt the Spanish Macross fandom because an obvious question arises:

How much else on that website is false? How much else is misinformation? How many other people out there think they know something but instead have the wrong information?

I was going to say something along these lines before, but if it wasn't for all of us being a multilingual, global community, just how long could this bulls**t have been kept up? I mean it was a pretty damn good line, he did have access to legitimate sources that at the time not many people really had, they just happened to be padded with a bunch of excess s**t. And the partial scans that were going around verified at least part of what he was writing was true.

Personally, I was pulling for him throwing his "Japanese girlfriend" under the bus as his source and to explain all the inconsistencies, but alas, he didn't go that route. Regardless, and bad jokes aside, now we all know better, especially the Spanish fans who in all reality could have had the wool pulled over their eyes for alot longer.

[Xeros]

(...)

Think about it - what if you got interested in Macross, but you're Spanish, or Chilean or (insert Spanish-speaking nationality)

(...)

Pete

Hey, I'm Chilean

I've to say I'm totally agree with you

Since I'm part of the "Spanish Fandom" I think my point of view could be interesting

I could say I'm a "old School" anime fan since I grown up viewing old anime series such Space Battleship Yamato, Starzinger or even Robotech at the '87 when it was firts aired here, but years later was re aired and I was aware of the HG stuff because at the time I already see DYRL on a VHS tape without any kind of subs.

I think there's no much people like me right now in the fandom, because the gross of the fandom are basically teenagers that unfortunately only have a tenuous grasp of english, so they are forced to rely on people like shaloom to get the news. As example I could tell you about something that happened last night in another spanish anime related forum. A guy about my age open a thread asking about the Robotech/Macross order to view, because he wants to remember "old times" and he get confused between both franchises, then a 17 years old boy answer getting things worse mixing all the stuff. So I try to clarify some things and try to guide this guy into the macross stuff (for the robotech stuff I just say I'll pass)

Another thing I noticed is something related to the fansubs. At least 60% of things I saw (manga mostly) is translated upon a English scanlation, and to make things worst BAD translated. So you could find 3 different versions of something at some points.

The final point is, those guys who know japanese are Very well valued for the fanbase because all you explained, cases like shaloom I've never see before, but I'm pretty sure that most than one user on MG used to think about him as "Shaloom-sama"...

Really painful

[Strumvogel]

While reading VFTF1's post it struck me that there's another danger with the mis-information that Shaloom gave out.

What if you met some Japanese fans of Macross and struck up a conversation about Macross, sharing info and interest and then you mention Ohnogi's work in Frontier, what he did for the characters and the sources that were supposedly from regarding it?

They'd probably look at you like you were an idiot, or worse someone who made all those things up. If they weren't accommodating enough to sit you down and clear up your misconceptions and so-call facts, they'll quite likely not take you seriously or have anything to do with you anymore.

I mean just how damaging is that?

[dreamweaver13]

But what I THINK is the main reason, maybe as a LatinAmerca characteristic, most of the time we believe what we receive, we dont take the time or the initiative to search or verify the information. We accept the first we get. Maybe Im wrong.

I don't think it's specifically a cultural thing. these days, everything is on fast forward, every minute is precious, offline or online. Once we're in a web community, you start to pick out some people you trust for vital information, scoops and other trivia. Once that person has attained a certain level of trust, you don't double check anymore. specially considering how difficult it is to verify given the availability of materials and the language barrier.

this is not an excuse for what Shaloom did. If anything, it makes what he did so much worse. when a information-sharing network has become based on trust and goodwill, the misuse and abuse of that trust is a betrayal of the highest order. specially among people who are passionate about the information.

[Gubaba]

For me, its simple, as many of people in MG just speak spanish, is common we like easy info, less work is better.

Others maybe like me just fail in believe what he said, because its difficult to doubt when you cant access to Japan information..well, we can access but cant understand. Also in that period of time, there was a lot of info being generated. Maybe if you dont work, youre out of school, etc.. you can get enough time to be in full with that.

But what I THINK is the main reason, maybe as a LatinAmerca characteristic, most of the time we believe what we receive, we dont take the time or the initiative to search or verify the information. We accept the first we get. Maybe Im wrong.

Most of the time I search info in what Im interested. About Macross i have interest, but maybe not enough to look in other places, there was the info I want.

The only reason that I ever started checking was because once I found out about those Ohnogi "novels," I WANTED THEM! Since of the primary reasons for the existence of my Macross Transaltion Project is to make the verbal homages in Macross Frontier clearer to English-speaking fans, novels that are referenced in Frontier were something that I was EXTREMELY interested in. Once I started digging, I ran into bishopcruz, who had been trying to find verification for Ohnogi's involvement with Frontier.

We started working together (me on the novels, he on the radio interviews; and he started the Famitsu investigation, discovering which issue the interview was in, and searching for the issue high and low). So it took two knowledgeable fans several months to find ANYTHING that could prove or disprove Shaloom's words. And that's not even including peppering magnuskn, Sketchley, Renato, Azrael, and Bariaburu Faita with questions.

So don't feel bad about not investigating it. It was my tenacity to get the novels that started it, and it was nly my outrage at seeing others take Shaloom's information as fact that made me write and post my essay.

While reading VFTF1's post it struck me that there's another danger with the mis-information that Shaloom gave out.

What if you met some Japanese fans of Macross and struck up a conversation about Macross, sharing info and interest and then you mention Ohnogi's work in Frontier, what he did for the characters and the sources that were supposedly from regarding it?

They'd probably look at you like you were an idiot, or worse someone who made all those things up. If they weren't accommodating enough to sit you down and clear up your misconceptions and so-call facts, they'll quite likely not take you seriously or have anything to do with you anymore.

I mean just how damaging is that?

Heh. I already had a situation like that:

http://macross.co.jp/bbs/entry.cgi?mode=al...ree&no=5662

Me, I'm wondering how many people sent hate mail to Satelight, saying things like, "Kawamori you troll! Why didn't you let Ohnogi write episode 25? He did such a great job on episodes 18~24!!!"

And some poor Satelight employee says, "Um, boss? We got another one of those weird bits of hate mail about your friend Hiroshi."

And Kawamori says, "Another one? Jeez, and they think I'm on drugs...?"

Edited July 2, 2009 by Gubaba

[bishopcruz]

Thought I'd pop in. Been busy, and not as much time for Macross posting, and hey, Gubaba had things handled. Still loved seeing Shaloom getting his due, especially after he repeatedly lied to me in regards to the novels, the radio show, and other fun stuff.

The only reason that I ever started checking was because once I found out about those Ohnogi "novels," I WANTED THEM! Since of the primary reasons for the existence of my Macross Transaltion Project is to make the verbal homages in Macross Frontier clearer to English-speaking fans, novels that are referenced in Frontier were something that I was EXTREMELY interested in. Once I started digging, I ran into bishopcruz, who had been trying to find verification for Ohnogi's involvement with Frontier.

Yeah, though I think it was you who first asked the question about Ohnogi, and whether he had worked on the show that got me digging. Christ on a crutch that took a while, and a lot of it was not handled the best way it could have been, after searching Wiki, Japanese fan sites, and other stuff. I THEN decided to check the credits. I already pretty much knew that Ohnogi didn't work on the series, but the credits clinched it.

Other stuff didn't add up either, IIRC, Ohnogi would have been hard at work on Mnemosyne during the time he was supposedly working on Frontier, and lead times for animation can be brutal, I doubted he would have had the time to do MacF. Still, DISPROVING something it hella harder than proving it.

We started working together (me on the novels, he on the radio interviews; and he started the Famitsu investigation, discovering which issue the interview was in, and searching for the issue high and low). So it took two knowledgeable fans several months to find ANYTHING that could prove or disprove Shaloom's words. And that's not even including peppering magnuskn, Sketchley, Renato, Azrael, and Bariaburu Faita with questions.

So don't feel bad about not investigating it. It was my tenacity to get the novels that started it, and it was nly my outrage at seeing others take Shaloom's information as fact that made me write and post my essay.

Yeah, seriously, it was a time consuming endeavor, especially when my Japanese is utter crap. I mean truly crap. In the grand scheme of things, the time would almost assuredly have been better spent doing other stuff, but then we'd still be bitching at Kawamori and believing ridiculous stories about the behind the scenes MacF drama. So, I know, now that this is out, I feel pretty vindicated.

Heh. I already had a situation like that:

http://macross.co.jp/bbs/entry.cgi?mode=al...ree&no=5662

Me, I'm wondering how many people sent hate mail to Satelight, saying things like, "Kawamori you troll! Why didn't you let Ohnogi write episode 25? He did such a great job on episodes 18~24!!!"

And some poor Satelight employee says, "Um, boss? We got another one of those weird bits of hate mail about your friend Hiroshi."

And Kawamori says, "Another one? Jeez, and they think I'm on drugs...?"

Well, at least those letters should be less frequent though. In either case, I very well may, in the odd chance that I ever run into Kawamori, ask him if Ohnogi in any way helped with Frontier, and y'know, videotape the response.

[d3v]

I don't visit for a few months and look at what I miss.

@Gubaba

Thanks for you're hard work on the subject. I admit, alot of what you had disproved, I had previously considered as fact and would probably have continued believing them if not for your hard work.

[Gubaba]

Since dreamweaver13 reminded me...I got an email from Shaloom last week. I asked Shaloom's permission to post it, but haven't heard back yet, so I guess that's a "no." Which is too bad, 'cause it was a doozy.

Essentially, he said that all the information in the "liner notes" came from 2ch rumors that he took to be real (despite the fact that he, Shaloom, claimed to have checked the credits and seen Ohnogi's name, and also claimed to have a lot of these obscure (and nonexistent) books).

But the bulk of his message was that the other moderators of Macross Generation were simply using me. Using me to "sow discord." Using me to enable them to take over the site.

I wrote back and told him I didn't buy the "2ch rumors." One way or another, he lied.

I haven't heard back, and I doubt I will.

Makes me wonder, though...is this guy disturbed enough that he actually BELIEVES his own lies, now...?

[Einherjar]

Makes me wonder, though...is this guy disturbed enough that he actually BELIEVES his own lies, now...?

I thought that's an ongoing problem in the Internet. Integrity, dignity, honesty, what's that?

[dreamweaver13]

But the bulk of his message was that the other moderators of Macross Generation were simply using me. Using me to "sow discord." Using me to enable them to take over the site.

what the... now where the hell did that come from?

[azrael]

Makes me wonder, though...is this guy disturbed enough that he actually BELIEVES his own lies, now...?

Say it enough times and eventually you'll believe it.

[AcroRay]

Makes me wonder, though...is this guy disturbed enough that he actually BELIEVES his own lies, now...?

Makes me wonder why some people can't seem to get through life without playing elaborate internet games like that. There's some freakazoid haunting my Yahoo group, constantly making sock-puppets masquerading as persons from Italy - never really fomenting trouble, but for some reason he just can't be 'himself' and play normally with others. And my group isn't the first he's done it on. Like there's some sort of new psychological perversion born of the anonimity of the internet. My troll needs some good therapy, or a good solid beating with a 2x4.

Edited July 24, 2009 by AcroRay

[Mr March]

Not surprised in the least. But I will say that the more Shaloom says in his "defense" the easier it is to convince even the most ardent apologist that he's lying. And that is a comforting thought

[Gubaba]

The situation over at Macross Generation is...not good. After getting stripped of his admin title, Shaloom somehow roared back, got rid of Iker and Bau (the other moderators), and hired some new members to be moderators.

Macross Generation is, once again, Shaloom Central...and any hope for credibility flies out the window.

However, it looks like a number of members are still not satisfied with Shaloom "explanation" of the situation.

I hate to say it, but I think a major split is coming in the Spanish-speaking Macross fandom. Shaloom COULD come clean, be honest, and avoid wrecking he site he said, but clearly, that's not what he's planning.

Suffice to say, when more Macross information comes our way from over there, I think it will be greeted by everyone with hearty laughter and a sad shake of the head.

Too bad. MG was a nice site, with lots of good people.

[azrael]

See what kind of trouble you caused? From the looks of it, this is a in-house matter and not our problem over here at MW (unless it becomes a issue).

[Gubaba]

See what kind of trouble you caused? From the looks of it, this is a in-house matter and not our problem over here at MW (unless it becomes a issue).

True, true. I'm not trying to make any more waves than I already have (nor am I trying to start any kind of anti-Shaloom discussions)...I'm just expressing disappointment in the situation over there, especially since Iker seems a genuinely good guy.

For the Macross fandom at large, I think the "Ohnogi Question" (and the related "Shaloom Question") remains settled. At least, I hope so. I really don't want to go through any of this again.

Edited July 25, 2009 by Gubaba

[Einherjar]

The situation over at Macross Generation is...not good. After getting stripped of his admin title, Shaloom somehow roared back, got rid of Iker and Bau (the other moderators), and hired some new members to be moderators.

Macross Generation is, once again, Shaloom Central...and any hope for credibility flies out the window.

Man, now that's corruption all for a TV show.

[ntsan]

Well when the movie come out he will done it again definitely lol

Edited July 25, 2009 by ntsan

[mike_s_6]

Oh dear. That's all I could say.

[Gubaba]

I talked with the new admin over there (I pointed out a place where Shaloom must have lied, and not just been mistaken), and his response was that he wasn't going to waste time checking things like that out. Shaloom said it was all just an honest error, and that was good enough.

As Azrael tactfully pointed out, this means little for us over here at MW (certainly we don't need any other people to go poking and prodding over there. I for one am certainly not going to back there...what's the point?). Let them have their website the way they want it.

BUT...I would respectfully suggest that any new Macross information we get must be checked thoroughly, and any information from Macross Generation should be treated as fabricated, unless it comes with verifiable sources.

Fair enough?

[Xeros]

of course

[Mr March]

Don't even need to ask. AFAIAC, that site is now a write-off.

[josue]

Don't even need to ask. AFAIAC, that site is now a write-off.

Too bad. I was nice knowing you MG! Goodbye.

On the next news...

[polidread]

what? Macross Galaxy got taken over by AI who wants to control the information flow of the universe?!

[Gubaba]

what? Macross Galaxy got taken over by AI who wants to control the information flow of the universe?!

That's...not far off, actually.

[mike_s_6]

Gubaba, why not make another short essay on that details on how Shaloom said he got the materials? Like you know, how a radio interview listened to on a cellphone, downloaded from a paid cellphone service, can be obtained ...from 2ch for example

Edited July 27, 2009 by mike_s_6

[Gubaba]

Gubaba, why not make another short essay on that details on how Shaloom said he got the materials? Like you know, how a radio interview listened to on a cellphone, downloaded from a paid cellphone service, can be obtained ...from 2ch for example

Not sure what good it would do. Clearly, anyone who believes the "I have a bad memory" or "it was all internet rumors" excuses cannot be swayed by logic.

Besides, I'm sick of this. Unless someone comes over here proclaiming that, I dunno, Kawamori fired Yoko Kanno from the second movie because she was making Sheryl's songs sound too good, I don't think we need to worry about MG anymore.

EDIT: I mean, I tried. I asked about the Studio Nue Entertainment Bibles (since, of course, Shaloom insisted there were fifteen volumes, not the two that actually exist. One of the new admins said, "I see what the problem is; he meant BANDAI Entertainment Bibles. There are tons of those!" So I asked which one had the Ohnogi stories, and he said, essentially, "I couldn't tell you, and I don't really care. Shaloom said it was all a mistake, and he apologized. The matter's finished."

How do you reason with someone like that?

Edited July 27, 2009 by Gubaba

[dreamweaver13]

How do you reason with someone like that?

You're right, you don't. they have their chance to be a solid part of the macross community again, but they didn't take it. sad, but what can ya do? live and let live, i guess.