The Ohnogi Question

[iker]

Although if you rather I didn't, that's fine, too.

Do it, i don't see why not.

(By the way...Graham, Iker...since I've got both of you here now...would it be possible for US to get that Minmay Doll smiley that's at Macross Generation? I've fallen in love with that thing!)

Sure

[TheLoneWolf]

Gubaba, thank you for all the hard work you've put into this research. After learning that you've uncovered lies from Shaloom dating back to 2008, I have to wonder just how long has Shaloom been making up information. 2007? 2006? 2002? While he may have given the community some legitimate information in the past, he's lost all credibility and I'm going to assume that any and all information that came from him is bogus. It's going to be impossible to fact-check every bit of information that he's posted, especially when you've shown that he also has a habit of completely falsifying his sources and referring to arcane doujins that may or may not exist (Egan Loo has warned the community about using doujins for serious research).

What I'm concerned about is Shaloom's lies resurrecting themselves in the future through unsuspecting fans. I'm glad that you're going to document all of your research into a single file, but I fear that this may eventually get lost in the forum, whether through noise or a forum update. Have you considered contributing your research to the Compendium? Obviously Shaloom and this controversy do not belong in the Compendium, but the facts that you've uncovered do. For example, under the Hiroshi Ohnogi entry (if one hasn't already been created), you could list the Macross productions that Ohnogi has actually worked on. And if you're feeling a little saucy, you could even write "Hiroshi Ohnogi has not worked on Macross Plus and Macross Frontier." Naturally, make sure to cite your work. I'm sure Shaloom would appreciate it.

[azrael]

... For example, under the Hiroshi Ohnogi entry (if one hasn't already been created), you could list the Macross productions that Ohnogi has actually worked on. And if you're feeling a little saucy, you could even write "Hiroshi Ohnogi has not worked on Macross Plus and Macross Frontier." Naturally, make sure to cite your work. I'm sure Shaloom would appreciate it.

Speaking for the Compendium, we don't even list Ohnogi anywhere near Frontier and I don't see that changing. If it ain't on the page, it ain't on the stage.

[Mr March]

What an unfortunate incident this has been, for everyone involved. It's hard to believe that one person could have cause so much damage across so many internet communities. Look at all the time and effort spent on this hoax. It's shameful. In many ways this incident reminds me of government corruption, though obviously this incident with Shaloom is a lot less serious because it's all just a fan hobby. But still, I hope incidents like this remain rare.

I will say this to iker and the MG forum members; I know you want to get past this incident and do what's best for your community. But keep in mind, the issue must remain open (at least for the near future), lest official action against the topic be interpreted as an attempt to cover up after the fact. At the risk of presumptuous, I don't believe anyone here blames the Macross Generation community for what happened. I believe Shaloom alone must carry the blame for this charge. Granted, some might be naturally apprehensive towards the MG website for a time, but I think most of us are understanding toward the MG community.

Edited June 24, 2009 by Mr March

[Killer Robot]

What an unfortunate incident this has been, for everyone involved. It's hard to believe that one person could have cause so much damage across so many internet communities. Look at all the time and effort spent on this hoax. It's shameful. In many ways this incident reminds me of government corruption, though obviously this incident with Shaloom is a lot less serious because it's all just a fan hobby. But still, I hope incidents like this remain rare.

I will say this to iker and the MG forum members; I know you want to get past this incident and do what's best for your community. But keep in mind, the issue must remain open (at least for the near future), lest official action against the topic be interpreted as an attempt to cover up after the fact. At the risk of presumptuous, I don't believe anyone here blames the Macross Generation community for what happened. I believe Shaloom alone must carry the blame for this charge. Granted, some might be naturally apprehensive towards the MG website for a time, but I think most of us are understanding toward the MG community.

I agree with this entirely. While fan translators might often argue over just what translation might be most accurate or which of multiple sources should be seen as having precedence, and while mistakes and misconceptions might sometimes creep in, deliberate mistranslation and outright fabrication of sources is a (thankfully) rare event. Likewise, since it's a generally earnest and hobby-driven environment it's normal to trust that a translation is given in good faith - in the absence of contrary evidence, it was natural for most members on both Macross Generation and here to assume the objective claims of Ohnogi's involvement/interviews were true and to save debate for opinions on how it worked out. It seems the abuse of trust was Shaloom's doing alone, so similarly any blame should be limited to him. Further, I hope people don't direct any apprehension toward MG or its community since they clearly had no more idea of this than the MW community did, but rather just put more value into verifying sources in general: multiple eyes on any given work can only lead to more accurate translations in any case, so even when (as usual) everyone involved is honest it's a good idea.

Thanks again to all those who got to the bottom of this, smoothed out the aftermath, and just got through the issue without unreasonable conflicts. It's just such a bizarre story that I didn't know what to think for a while there.

[TheLoneWolf]

Speaking for the Compendium, we don't even list Ohnogi anywhere near Frontier and I don't see that changing. If it ain't on the page, it ain't on the stage.

Thanks azrael, that's good to know.

Even though the Compendium doesn't associate Ohnogi with Frontier, I was willing to believe that he was one of Frontier's writers because I thought that piece of information was accidentally omitted from the Compendium. It's challenging for a reader to know whether information is omitted because it's simply untrue, or just that no one thought to include it.

[iker]

I will say this to iker and the MG forum members; I know you want to get past this incident and do what's best for your community. But keep in mind, the issue must remain open (at least for the near future), lest official action against the topic be interpreted as an attempt to cover up after the fact. At the risk of presumptuous, I don't believe anyone here blames the Macross Generation community for what happened. I believe Shaloom alone must carry the blame for this charge. Granted, some might be naturally apprehensive towards the MG website for a time, but I think most of us are understanding toward the MG community.

I know, and that's why the topic is pinned and opens for everyone to see the outcome & never forget what a couple of lies can do.

It's challenging for a reader to know whether information is omitted because it's simply untrue, or just that no one thought to include it.

And that's the main reason this hoax achieve live for so long.

[Mr March]

I know, and that's why the topic is pinned and opens for everyone to see the outcome & never forget what a couple of lies can do.

That's very wise. I wish you and the MG community the best.

[Gubaba]

Gubaba, thank you for all the hard work you've put into this research. After learning that you've uncovered lies from Shaloom dating back to 2008, I have to wonder just how long has Shaloom been making up information. 2007? 2006? 2002? While he may have given the community some legitimate information in the past, he's lost all credibility and I'm going to assume that any and all information that came from him is bogus. It's going to be impossible to fact-check every bit of information that he's posted, especially when you've shown that he also has a habit of completely falsifying his sources and referring to arcane doujins that may or may not exist (Egan Loo has warned the community about using doujins for serious research).

What I'm concerned about is Shaloom's lies resurrecting themselves in the future through unsuspecting fans. I'm glad that you're going to document all of your research into a single file, but I fear that this may eventually get lost in the forum, whether through noise or a forum update. Have you considered contributing your research to the Compendium? Obviously Shaloom and this controversy do not belong in the Compendium, but the facts that you've uncovered do. For example, under the Hiroshi Ohnogi entry (if one hasn't already been created), you could list the Macross productions that Ohnogi has actually worked on. And if you're feeling a little saucy, you could even write "Hiroshi Ohnogi has not worked on Macross Plus and Macross Frontier." Naturally, make sure to cite your work. I'm sure Shaloom would appreciate it.

He's been making stuff up since 2002, at least. One of the MG mebers told me that Shaloom had had similar revelations during Macross Zero's production, and even flew to Japan to interview Kawamori. The member though that the interview had been lost once MG moved from their old boards to the new one, but a little bit of searching found that it resides here:

http://forum.sugoi.com.pe/index.php?showtopic=12376

Anyway, it's nothing as egregious as the Ohnogi stuff, since it's mostly pasted together from different Kawamori interviews that are floating around.

Anyway, i think it'll be quite a while before he shows his face on any Macross forum again, either MG or here (did you know that he was here? It was one of the first things I found when I started investigating this, and I kept hoping he'd show up again here so I could ask him a few questions. Alas, February was the last time he logged in here...).

Lindem Herz has already translated the essay into Spanish, and I've started posting it over on MG. I'd like to hear Shaloom's version of events, just so I can get some nagging questions answered, but that's probably too much to hope.

Anyway, again: Macross Generation is a great site, with great people.

The end.

[Strumvogel]

Anyway, i think it'll be quite a while before he shows his face on any Macross forum again, either MG or here (did you know that he was here? It was one of the first things I found when I started investigating this, and I kept hoping he'd show up again here so I could ask him a few questions. Alas, February was the last time he logged in here...).

That doesn't mean that he hasn't been by, just not logged in.

Still, I'm quite glad that this didn't get nasty and turned into a forum war, this is the internet after all. Thanks to iker for dropping by and keeping us inform of how things are going in regard to this from MG's point of view as well. I was beginning to feel uncomfortable about how it was going to turn out as time passed. I'm more relived now.

Gubaba, any ideas on where to keep all the info you collected if anyone ever stumble into this incident in the future? You know some new fan down the road would want to look up info about the series and would end up coming across some word of this and want to know more.

[Gubaba]

That doesn't mean that he hasn't been by, just not logged in.

Still, I'm quite glad that this didn't get nasty and turned into a forum war, this is the internet after all. Thanks to iker for dropping by and keeping us inform of how things are going in regard to this from MG's point of view as well. I was beginning to feel uncomfortable about how it was going to turn out as time passed. I'm more relived now.

Tell me about it. For a few days I was feeling really worried that I had started something I couldn't finish. I suspected that this was a touchy subject for the mods here, and I was afraid I had made their fears come true...

But, like I said, MG is full of great people. And Shaloom's running away and hiding cannot be underestimated as a defuser of conflict. So bless the guy once again, for shooting himself in the foot and making himself look guilty as sin. If he had come roaring back, with well-photoshopped fakes, we might have had a real site war on our hands.

Gubaba, any ideas on where to keep all the info you collected if anyone ever stumble into this incident in the future? You know some new fan down the road would want to look up info about the series and would end up coming across some word of this and want to know more.

See, the problem is that I don't have a whole lot of info. It's all, "I can't find this" here and "I checked every book but it doesn't say anything about it" there. I think it's the cumulative effect that convincing, rather than any specific points.

And the information spans three different languages and lots of websites. Also, bear in mind that Shaloom said that the Macross Compendium and Macross World were both "full of errors and omissions." So I tried not to use either as a source.

Here's the rundown:

Shaloom's claims that have been thoroughly disproven

1. Ohnogi is credited as the writer for episode 18 of Frontier. (A check of the episode itself, Japanese Wikipedia, or either 2059:Memories or the Macross F Official Fan Book can dispel this one...if you know where to look, and you know the kanji for "screenplay" (脚本), "Yoshino Hiroyuki" (吉野弘幸) and for "Ohnogi Hiroshi" (大野木寛)).

2. Kawamori wrote the final episode for Macross F (The same sources as above can be used, since Yoshino is credited as writing all the episodes. But, just for the hell of it, here's Kawamori's name: 河森正治. And, just in case it comes up, his pseudonym, "Kurokawa Eiji": (黒河影次)

3. Ohnogi wrote Macross Plus. Anime News Network and all languages of Wikipedia, as well as either of the This Is Animation Specials on Macross Plus will tell you that Nobumoto Keiko wrote Plus.

4. Ohnogi wrote DYRL. Again, any book or website will tell you otherwise.

5. Ohnogi wrote the SDFM episodes "Pineapple Salad" and "Rainy Night." (Try as I might, I can't find any website that lists all the SDFM credits in English. Japanese Wikiepdia has them, as does Macross Perfect Memory. This evening, I just scanned the Perfect Memory pages, and I'll probably make some kind of color-coded "who wrote what"-type chart for it. There are only six writers for SDFM, so it shouldn't be too hard.)

6. There are fifteen Studio Nue Entertainment Bible volumes. (As Graham said, if they existed someone would've found them by now. I can't find any website with a list of all of them, but it's possible to piece together a list using amazon.co.jp, Mandarake, and the Japanese Wikipedia pages for the shows involved. Thankfully, the Entertainment Bibles are numbered quite prominently, so it's not hard to piece together all the info. Also, starblazers.com has an interview with Miyatake, with a bibliography of his works. Only the two volumes of the Studio Nue EBs are shown.)

7. There's an interview with Ohnogi in the August 1983 issue of OUT Magazine, where Ohnogi says that Kawamori didn't want Hikaru to end up with Misa, but rather have a "triangler ending." (among this most pleasant finds of my search was this site: http://homepage2.nifty.com/out-site/ , which documents the contents of every issue of OUT with obsessive detail. If you look at 1983, the August issue has nothing about Macross...the July issue, however, is chock-full of Macross stuff, and might be worth tracking down. No Ohnogi interview, however.)

8. The Famitsu Magazine Interview with Kawamori is as Shaloom presents it. (I posted the scans. Do with them as you will.)

Then there are a lot of claims that would be called false by any reasonable measure. These are 1) the existence of the radio show on which "Ohnogi" was "interviewed" by "Bobby" (It's not listed on the Japanese Wikipedia page for Macross F radio shows, there is no mention of it on the Macross F homepage, and there are no uploads of it on NicoNico. this doesn't disprove its existence 100%, but if it's real, there should be SOME mention of it SOMEWHERE) and 2) the SDFM "novels" of Ohnogi (Shaloom said they were serialized in "magazines like Animage and OUT between '86 and '88." Something that vague is hard to disprove. But no one else has heard of them, even die-hard Japanese macross fans (witness the rather bemused response when I asked about them on macross.co.jo: http://macross.co.jp/bbs/entry.cgi?mode=al...ree&no=5662 ). Not to say they COULDN'T exist, but given everything else, it seems unlikely.)

Last there are the things that may or may not be true, and only Shaloom knows for sure. There are too many to list, but they include things like Ranka's backpack being based on a design by the doujinshi group Macross Attack Team ( http://www.macrossworld.com/macross/books/dou_mat2.htm ), and the end of Frontier episode 8 being based on the hard-to-find secret ending of Macross Love Stories, the Macross dating sim.

I'm not sure about all of Bishopcruz's findings, but I think there's a similar dearth of real meat in what he found (or, more appropriately, DIDN'T find).

So really, that's very little to give someone, especially since the story has mutated, with some now saying that Ohnogi refused credit for his work on Frontier, or that the radio show was NOT a real radio show, but rather a DVD extra.

I'm sure it will come up again, and I think the only thing to do is to direct them to this thread, or the relevant Macross Generation threads.

I think I've done a good job of spreading the facts around here and at Animesuki. Once I finish posting the Spanish version of my essay, I hope the members of Macross Generation will spread it around similarly in the Spanish-Speaking world. And really, I think that's the best we can do, unless we can get Shaloom to publicly confess, and spread that confession around everywhere.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Gubaba

[iker]

That doesn't mean that he hasn't been by, just not logged in.

Still, I'm quite glad that this didn't get nasty and turned into a forum war, this is the internet after all. Thanks to iker for dropping by and keeping us inform of how things are going in regard to this from MG's point of view as well. I was beginning to feel uncomfortable about how it was going to turn out as time passed. I'm more relived now.

Gubaba, any ideas on where to keep all the info you collected if anyone ever stumble into this incident in the future? You know some new fan down the road would want to look up info about the series and would end up coming across some word of this and want to know more.

Well I've been a member since the ikonboard days, and MG was my attempt to do something like MW for the spanish community. And i still check in the forum from time to time

Tell me about it. For a few days I was feeling really worried that I had started something I couldn't finish. I suspected that this was a touchy subject for the mods here, and I was afraid I had made their fears come true...

But, like I said, MG is full of great people. And Shaloom's running away and hiding cannot be underestimated as a defuser of conflict. So bless the guy once again, for shooting himself in the foot and making himself look guilty as sin. If he had come roaring back, with well-photoshopped fakes, we might have had a real site war on our hands.

See, the problem is that I don't have a whole lot of info. It's all, "I can't find this" here and "I checked every book but it doesn't say anything about it" there. I think it's the cumulative effect that convincing, rather than any specific points.

And the information spans three different languages and lots of websites. Also, bear in mind that Shaloom said that the Macross Compendium and Macross World were both "full of errors and omissions." So I tried not to use either as a source.

Here's the rundown:

Shaloom's claims that have been thoroughly disproven

1. Ohnogi is credited as the writer for episode 18 of Frontier. (A check of the episode itself, Japanese Wikipedia, or either 2059:Memories or the Macross F Official Fan Book can dispel this one...if you know where to look, and you know the kanji for "screenplay" (脚本), "Yoshino Hiroyuki" (吉野弘幸) and for "Ohnogi Hiroshi" (大野木寛)).

2. Kawamori wrote the final episode for Macross F (The same sources as above can be used, since Yoshino is credited as writing all the episodes. But, just for the hell of it, here's Kawamori's name: 河森正治. And, just in case it comes up, his pseudonym, "Kurokawa Eiji": (黒河影次)

3. Ohnogi wrote Macross Plus. Anime News Network and all languages of Wikipedia, as well as either of the This Is Animation Specials on Macross Plus will tell you that Nobumoto Keiko wrote Plus.

4. Ohnogi wrote DYRL. Again, any book or website will tell you otherwise.

5. Ohnogi wrote the SDFM episodes "Pineapple Salad" and "Rainy Night." (Try as I might, I can't find any website that lists all the SDFM credits in English. Japanese Wikiepdia has them, as does Macross Perfect Memory. This evening, I just scanned the Perfect Memory pages, and I'll probably make some kind of color-coded "who wrote what"-type chart for it. There are only six writers for SDFM, so it shouldn't be too hard.)

6. There are fifteen Studio Nue Entertainment Bible volumes. (As Graham said, if they existed someone would've found them by now. I can't find any website with a list of all of them, but it's possible to piece together a list using amazon.co.jp, Mandarake, and the Japanese Wikipedia pages for the shows involved. Thankfully, the Entertainment Bibles are numbered quite prominently, so it's not hard to piece together all the info. Also, starblazers.com has an interview with Miyatake, with a bibliography of his works. Only the two volumes of the Studio Nue EBs are shown.)

7. There's an interview with Ohnogi in the August 1983 issue of OUT Magazine, where Ohnogi says that Kawamori didn't want Hikaru to end up with Misa, but rather have a "triangler ending." (among this most pleasant finds of my search was this site: http://homepage2.nifty.com/out-site/ , which documents the contents of every issue of OUT with obsessive detail. If you look at 1983, the August issue has nothing about Macross...the July issue, however, is chock-full of Macross stuff, and might be worth tracking down. No Ohnogi interview, however.)

8. The Famitsu Magazine Interview with Kawamori is as Shaloom presents it. (I posted the scans. Do with them as you will.)

Then there are a lot of claims that would be called false by any reasonable measure. These are 1) the existence of the radio show on which "Ohnogi" was "interviewed" by "Bobby" (It's not listed on the Japanese Wikipedia page for Macross F radio shows, there is no mention of it on the Macross F homepage, and there are no uploads of it on NicoNico. this doesn't disprove its existence 100%, but if it's real, there should be SOME mention of it SOMEWHERE) and 2) the SDFM "novels" of Ohnogi (Shaloom said they were serialized in "magazines like Animage and OUT between '86 and '88." Something that vague is hard to disprove. But no one else has heard of them, even die-hard Japanese macross fans (witness the rather bemused response when I asked about them on macross.co.jo: http://macross.co.jp/bbs/entry.cgi?mode=al...ree&no=5662 ). Not to say they COULDN'T exist, but given everything else, it seems unlikely.)

Last there are the things that may or may not be true, and only Shaloom knows for sure. There are too many to list, but they include things like Ranka's backpack being based on a design by the doujinshi group Macross Attack Team ( http://www.macrossworld.com/macross/books/dou_mat2.htm ), and the end of Frontier episode 8 being based on the hard-to-find secret ending of Macross Love Stories, the Macross dating sim.

I'm not sure about all of Bishopcruz's findings, but I think there's a similar dearth of real meat in what he found (or, more appropriately, DIDN'T find).

So really, that's very little to give someone, especially since the story has mutated, with some now saying that Ohnogi refused credit for his work on Frontier, or that the radio show was NOT a real radio show, but rather a DVD extra.

I'm sure it will come up again, and I think the only thing to do is to direct them to this thread, or the relevant Macross Generation threads.

I think I've done a good job of spreading the facts around here and at Animesuki. Once I finish posting the Spanish version of my essay, I hope the members of Macross Generation will spread it around similarly in the Spanish-Speaking world. And really, I think that's the best we can do, unless we can get Shaloom to publicly confess, and spread that confession around everywhere.

To quote Sam (from quantum leap) Oh boy...

Shaloom really is a m*ron not only did he mess up a lot of things...but could avoid a lot of damage with a few google searchs heck, just checking the imacross topic..

[mxhz]

Thanks Gubaba... a good Macross FAN!

Finally all of this is getting the required support to find the true.

Someone could think you learn a little spanish just to speak with Shaloom.. jaja.

CYA!

[Gubaba]

Thanks Gubaba... a good Macross FAN!

Finally all of this is getting the required support to find the true.

Someone could think you learn a little spanish just to speak with Shaloom.. jaja.

CYA!

I don't need to. Shaloom can speak English just fine:

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...sult_type=posts

[mxhz]

I don't need to. Shaloom can speak English just fine:

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...sult_type=posts

I mean about the effort you did to make this arrive to Macross GEneration in its own language...jeje, anyway. Thanks

[Gubaba]

I mean about the effort you did to make this arrive to Macross GEneration in its own language...jeje, anyway. Thanks

Google Translate, mi amigo, Google Translate.

[Gubaba]

Oh, by the way, I went through the actual Famitsu Interview today with one of my Japanese friends, and I understand it well enough that I can make a better summary of the whole thing.

But since I'm sure inquiring minds want to know (and want to know NOW), Kawamori does NOT come out and endorse polygamy, either for Alto or for others. But he's talking about mass hypnosis as a form of control (a theme that he points out is present in both Plus and Frontier) and uses monogamy as an example of societal brainwashing: we just assume that it MUST be that way, but when you look at the animal world, monogamy is not usually present. Society has conditioned us into thinking that way.

It's an example. Not a recommendation. Not an explanation of the "triangler ending." An example.

[ntsan]

I don't need to. Shaloom can speak English just fine:

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...sult_type=posts

So he did have phone w/ camera!

[Mercurial Morpheus]

Oh, by the way, I went through the actual Famitsu Interview today with one of my Japanese friends, and I understand it well enough that I can make a better summary of the whole thing.

But since I'm sure inquiring minds want to know (and want to know NOW), Kawamori does NOT come out and endorse polygamy, either for Alto or for others. But he's talking about mass hypnosis as a form of control (a theme that he points out is present in both Plus and Frontier) and uses monogamy as an example of societal brainwashing: we just assume that it MUST be that way, but when you look at the animal world, monogamy is not usually present. Society has conditioned us into thinking that way.

It's an example. Not a recommendation. Not an explanation of the "triangler ending." An example.

Very interesting example. It is something that's taken as something solid. The backlash agaist him when people thought it was a championing of polygamy proving him rather true. Ironic.

[Gubaba]

Also by the way, as part of my "extended cut" of the Ohnogi essay for Macross Generation (since I figure they need a little more proof than I showed here), is this chart of who wrote for SDFM. Shaloom claimed that Ohnogi wrote Pineapple Salad (episode 18, of course) and Rainy Night (Episode 33).

Let me know if anyone thinks it needs anything...I didn't add the episode titles because I figure the numbers are good enough to identify them.

Key:

松崎 健一 (Matsuzaki Kenichi)

石黒 昇 (Ishiguro Noboru)

富田 祐弘 (Tomita Sukehiro)

大野木 寛 (Ohnogi Hiroshi)

星山 博之 (Hoshiyama Hiroyuki)

河森正治 (Kawamori Shoji)

[nexxstrait]

Also by the way, as part of my "extended cut" of the Ohnogi essay for Macross Generation (since I figure they need a little more proof than I showed here), is this chart of who wrote for SDFM. Shaloom claimed that Ohnogi wrote Pineapple Salad (episode 18, of course) and Rainy Night (Episode 33).

Key:

松崎 健一 (Matsuzaki Kenichi)

石黒 昇 (Ishiguro Noboru)

富田 祐弘 (Tomita Sukehiro)

大野木 寛 (Ohnogi Hiroshi)

星山 博之 (Hoshiyama Hiroyuki)

河森正治 (Kawamori Shoji)

Since I don't have Japanese language installed, I've checked the Italian DVD liner notes (which I own). According to them Ohnogi wrote 16, 17, 21, 23, 30, 32, 34, while 18 and 33 were both written by Hoshiyama Hiroyuki.

Is it right?

Edited June 27, 2009 by nexxstrait

[Gubaba]

Since I don't have Japanese language installed, I've checked the Italian DVD liner notes (which I own). According to them Ohnogi wrote 16, 17, 21, 23, 30, 32, 34, while 18 and 33 were both written by Hoshiyama Hiroyuki.

Is it right?

Yes. But I was kind of hoping my handy-dandy chart would answer that for you...

[DeX-kun]

Yes. But I was kind of hoping my handy-dandy chart would answer that for you...

The yellow hurts my eyes lol, but thanks for your art

[Gubaba]

Well, I thought it was over, but Shaloom came back today after nearly a three-week absence:

Bueno, aqui estoy.

Hay muchas cosas que decir y muchas cosas que explicar.

Aunque leyendo 3 temas veo que muchos ya hicieron juicios sobre mi persona, tomaron conclusiones y determinaron conductas por medio de mi prescencia en otros canales. Twitter, youtube, foros que frecuento, etc.

Primer hecho. yo decidi no entrar a MG en las ultimas 3 semanas.

Por que? Por que decidi darle prioridad a otras cosas.

He invertido dinero en otros foros y proyectos que me exigieron el poco tiempo libre. Y bajo mi propio criterio, decidi atender estos sitios antes que venir aqui.

Hasta el sabado me di cuenta de la enorme bola de nieve que se cargo aqui. Asi que decidi copiar todos sus post y los estuve leyendo todo este fin de semana.

En estas 3 semanas, no entre ni a MG ni al MSN, este ultimo lo decidi apagar por recomendacion de mi jefe en la oficina, y para los que me conocen, no soy muy avido de conectarme por las noches a menos que estuviera trabajando en mi PC (ya que se prende en forma automatica el MSN).

Segundo, como sabia el staff desde hace mas de mes y medio, (pero no lo sabian ustedes) estoy estudiando una carrera universitaria nueva. no maestria ni diplomado, sino una carrera completamente nueva. Y mis horarios se han reducido. Trato de no prender mi computadora por las noches porque deseo al menos dormir 8 horas de sueño. De las cuales si bien me va, duermo 6 por mis horarios de trabajo escuela investigaciones etc

Si juego xbox live, ha sido los viernes en la noche, cosa que hago desde hace ... 5 años. De hecho lo he mencionado en el foro muchas veces y varios usuarios del foro me han agregado a su lista de gamertags, dicho sea de paso, jugue con el usuario goca el viernes pasado y el no me dijo nada de este asunto. Supongo que como varios usuarios del foro, goca no ha venido por aqui en meses. Asi que el tampoco sabia de este asunto.

Tercero, sobre mi twitter si lo cerre... yo lo cerre por que en mi trabajo me lo estaban "ventaneando" (y lo mantendre asi). Como sabran los lurkers que lo leian, escribia (entre chats y diversiones) cosas del trabajo. Eso molestó a mis superiores. Esto es un error de mi parte ya que ignoraba que el nick fuera conocido por la gente de mi trabajo o que en mi trabajo usaran el twitter (supongo el poner mi nombre al lado del nick no ayuda). Pero si varios creen que lo cerre para "esconderme" pues esa es su creencia. Acabo de recibir solicitud de rickhunter21 y ya lo autoricé a seguirme en Twitter. Invito a Iker que me siga si esta interesado en ver que hago. Al igual que todos los usuarios de MG si usan esta herramienta.

Las opiniones de Iker y bauhaus 45 las aplaudo pero no comparto sus opiniones. Con esto no quiero que se entienda que las desapruebo. Las aplaudo porque yo hubiera hecho lo mismo pero hubiera hecho un poco mas. Hubiera llamado al celular de ellos o al telefono personal de ellos y platicar al respecto. No escribir en un foro su opinion si en 3 semanas no han hablado conmigo siendo que ellos inclusive hasta mi casa conocen. Han ido ahi, como decimos los mexicanos, hasta "hemos chupado juntos" cosa significante a "conocemos todo de ti". Cuando estaba leyendo los post este fin de semana, pensaba en que ambos tuvieron la cabeza fria para establecer prioridades personales aparte sobre las cosas que en un foro se dicen, pero al leer ya sus opiniones, pues ya no se que pensar.

Teniendo esa linea de comunicacion personal, me hubiera gustado conocer sus opiniones o al menos recibir sus llamadas si esto estaba creciendo a pasos agigantados. (Oye pedazo de cab.... parate en el foro!) Pero pues asi no se hizo. Saben donde vivo, saben donde hablo y si no prendo el MSN es por una razon. En este momento, teniendo el MSN (prendido por exepcion y abusando que mi jefe no está) no tengo comunicacion de ellos. Es mas, ni el saludo. Puedo decir que me siento decepcionado en forma personal con ellos. Pero les aplaudo su acción profesional del sitio y la forma en que como lo estan manejando. Repito, yo hubiera hecho lo mismo, aunque hubiera hecho un poco mas.

Si te sientes traicionado iker, lo lamento. ignoro el porque lo llevas a ese nivel siendo que tienes puerta abierta en mi casa como para preguntarme directamente y ver que puede suceder. Yo podria decir hoy muchas razones por las cuales tambien señalar traiciones. Pero dejo aun lado este foro que es algo virtual, a la persona que eres y pues prefiero quedarme con la persona que eres fuera de aqui. A final de cuentas las experiencias que hemos vivido me pagan millones de veces mejor y mas que lo que me has hecho en este foro. Porque aun despues de esa expresion, yo te considero mi amigo de los buenos, tu lo sabes, asi como a hector, a erick (que el me llamo y sabe inclusive un poco mas de lo que este topic dice) y otros amigos que se tomaron la molestia de llamar o visitarme a mi casa preguntandome porque no estaba en el MSN (Jorge Pratt por ejemplo)

En este momento no soy ni admin ni moderador, (quiza pensaron que borraria mensajes a disetra y siniestra o banearia a todo el foro) hay mas de 500 mensajes personales que tengo que depurar y no puedo leerlos hasta vaciar mi bandeja. He visto que usuarios me mandaron MP pidiendo ayuda del foro, les pido que le envíen asuntos de este tipo a Bauhaus o Iker. Los cuales tienen el poder para ayudarlos. Ignoro si se me devolvera el status del mismo. Aqui es decision de ellos y de ustedes, comunidad.

Sobre el porque no vine ya esta explicado. Leyendo mails veo tambien que mucha gente asume que uno debe de vivir encadenado al foro. Espero que entiendan que al menos en este momento me es imposible estar visitando el foro como antes.

Sobre los insultos y apodos que me han mandado, pues no puedo hacer mas. Yo se desde hace mas de 10 años que existe este nick, que hay gente que me odia, hay gente que me desea mal o hay gente que ni siquiera no me traga. Eso no lo puedo evitar. El haber estado ausente me permite ver quienes son los que piensan asi o los que cambian muy facilmente de opinion hacia los demas. Hay muchas cosas que suceden fuera de aqui con mi persona y que no tienen idea de lo que sucede. A veces uno tiene a tomar decisiones y yo tome la decision de estar fuera de aqui para atender otros asuntos y destinar mi poco tiempo libre a otra cosa.

Soy culpable de no avisar. Asi es.

Sobre lo de Ohnogi,

Puedo escribir un choro del porque escribo esas cosas. Lo escribi porque lo creo, porque escuche esos audios web y porque lo traduje sin comprobar cosas basandome en mi memoria (como erroneamente pensaba que el habia escrito Macross Plus). De hecho queria hacer una nueva revision de cosas de los episodios, pero ya no he tenido tiempo. Mea culpa.

Mi error fue el publicar YO la info aunque si regresan al pasado y leen mis comentarios y los comentarios de los demas, siempre especulabamos y comprobabamos esas especulaciones. (no con eso diga que es oficial) Mucha gente me pedia publicarlos en el portal y descarga de PDF. Yo siempre me negue (y varios usuarios deberian de revisar sus MP) que la razon por la cual omitia publicar en el portal dicha informacion era que se tenia que comprobar OFICIALMENTE en las publicaciones.

Muchos saben que yo deje de comprar material impreso, suspendi la compra de Macross Chronicle y no he comprado ni siquiera las novelas por los gastos de importacion. Inclusive yo lo dije varias veces en el foro, ignoraba el porque no salia publicado el nombre de los guionistas.

Mi mea culpa es publicar cosas sin una base solida y no mantener la perspectiva de lo oficial y de lo especulativo. Ya antes habia recibido 3 comunicaciones con gente de Macross World (no Gubaba sino otros usuarios) dicendoles exactamente eso mismo, que eran escritos para la comunidad y que esperaba comprobar informacion para publicarlos en el portal. Inclusive le llegue a comentar al Bau via MSN que me pedian el material para la macross wiki. Siendo que me volvi a negar (otra vez) precisamente porque yo mismo queria hacer revision de la misma info.

En el portal, (no en el foro y aviso para los que duden) todo lo que esta publicado, se posee en fisico y por eso manejamos los ISBN, numeros de catalogo para que los compren y vean/traduzcan la fuente. Hay gente que aprovecha para sacar sus frustraciones sobre mi persona y de paso sobre el portal (de ahi a que aplaudo la actitud de bau e iker porque tambien hay TRABAJO de ellos ahi publicado, asi como de Axel Vant). Macross Frontier no tiene su seccion publicada debido a que no hay material de mi parte para hacer un analisis al nivel de los otros titulos. Tambien por flojera y mala administracion de el tiempo, solo tengo terminadas las reseñas de cada episodio. Pero no hay info de produccion ni demas material porque no tengo dinero por el momento para comprar material y por ende, me reservé su publicacion.

Para Gubaba (un enorme fan de Macross) le diria que agradezco su prescencia aqui y lamento mucho lo que el perdio de tiempo por estar siguiendo/traduciendo esta información. Yo personalmente lo admiro mucho porque el desde ese viejo Macrossworld se encargó de difundir informacion a la comunidad. Y mucho de mis años de fan y la forma en como yo difundo la info es basada en sus metodos. Lo siento mucho.

Ya como estan las cosas hoy. Es innegable que ya gente hizo sus juicios, ya me llamaron traidor, mitomano, egocentrico, mentiroso, supongo que en otros foros ya habran temas dedicados a mi persona, esto ya no se puede cambiar. No voy a mencionar mis logros antes de lo de Ohnogi, a final de cuentas, la gente usualmente tenemos memoria de corto plazo, y ya en este momento los logros de MG no son mios sino de un grupo de personas que ha sabido continuar sin que yo este con ellos.

Tampoco puedo intentar tapar el sol con un dedo y creer que con un post pueda revertir esa tendencia. Lo unico que si puedo decir es que agradezco a la gente todos sus mensajes, sean malos o buenos. Sean llenos de odio o burlas. Quiza hoy tuve un error y deje crecer esto a niveles que no debio tener. Pero tambien yo debo de continuar, este sitio lo fundé y ya con años se volvio la casa de todos ustedes y hare lo que este de mi parte para que esta casa siga creciendo, poniendo de mi bolsillo para que continue y manteniendola plural aun si se trata de hablar sobre su fundador.

Que puedo hacer? lo unico que en este momento puedo hacer es pedirles a todos y cada uno una disculpa por el tiempo que perdieron en este asunto. No puedo hacer mas. Aprovecho tambien el pedirles una disculpa a cada uno de los que creen que soy un traidor, un mitomano, un egocentrico y hasta "p.3ndejo". Espero que este topic les ayude a sacar todo lo que tienen guardado sobre mi persona y mantenganlo sobre mi persona, porque MG es mas que yo.

Yo solo lo funde, pero esto jamas sería lo que es sin ustedes, viejos o nuevos usuarios. Si yo ya no estoy, este sitio crecerá y seguira creciendo. Creyendome a partir de hoy o no.

Omar peimbert - Shaloom

PD. Sobre el fansub, les explico en el topic del mismo.

Now this is all way too much for Google Translate to make sense of. I *think* he is saying that he made a few errors since he did it all from memory (like who wrote what). I don't think he addresses the mangled Famitsu Interview or the radio show. And I think he says he has no proof to show.

But I'm in no wise sure, so if anyone wants to help out, I'll be grateful.

[nexxstrait]

A very quick note about what Shaloom wrote (I can't do much more than this at this time, I'm in a hurry, sorry. My spanish is also a bit rusty). The first part deals with his absence from MG boards: to sum up, too few spare time in a very busy moment of his life, taken by other on-line projects (he also says that some of the MG staff know him in person and have his telephone number, but never thought to contact him directly in that way to clear thing faster). As for the "Ohnogi-Gate", he does not mention anything specifically (Famitsu interview), but says that he believes what he wrote about Ohnogi but that he also wrote it by memory (some from things listened in tapes, if I'm not mistaken, since he no longer buys Macross publications). He is sorry to have made you (Gubaba) and others loose so much time and to have provoked so much hate and disillusion, but it has to be noted that he highly praises you for all the work done and for finding so many facts and proofs that will surely help the Macross community at large and for finding things he obviusly didn't know or believed to be different. He never intended his information to be taken as the holy bible, since he was citing things he remembered, but he wanted nonetheless to share it with the MG community (I don't undertsand if the meaning is that his information were always intended to be "taken with a grain of salt". As I said, my spanish is rusty, I don't want to translate something wrong from this post). He will post about his subtitles in a specific post on MG. Hope this helps until some better translation pops up.

My personal opinion is that he is so keen on macross that he wanted to share his findings with the community even if he wasn't sure they were right. And that's because enthusiasm had the upper hand.

Edited June 30, 2009 by nexxstrait

[Gubaba]

A very quick note about what Shaloom wrote (I can't do much more than this at this time, I'm in a hurry, sorry. My spanish is also a bit rusty). The first part deals with his absence from MG boards: to sum up, too few spare time in a very busy moment of his life, taken by other on-line projects (he also says that some of the MG staff know him in person and have his telephone number, but never thought to contact him directly in that way to clear thing faster). As for the "Ohnogi-Gate", he does not mention anything specifically (Famitsu interview), but says that he believes what he wrote about Ohnogi but that he also wrote it by memory (some from things listened in tapes, if I'm not mistaken, since he no longer buys Macross publications). He is sorry to have made you (Gubaba) and others loose so much time and to have provoked so much hate and disillusion, but it has to be noted that he highly praises you for all the work done and for finding so many facts and proofs that will surely help the Macross community at large and for finding things he obviusly didn't know or believed to be different. He never intended his information to be taken as the holy bible, since he was citing things he remembered, but he wanted nonetheless to share it with the MG community (I don't undertsand if the meaning is that his information were always intended to be "taken with a grain of salt". As I said, my spanish is rusty, I don't want to translate something wrong from this post). He will post about his subtitles in a specific post on MG. Hope this helps until some better translation pops up.

My personal opinion is that he is so keen on macross that he wanted to share his findings with the community even if he wasn't sure they were right. And that's because enthusiasm had the upper hand.

Thanks for that, Nexxstrait!

Hmmm...at the risk of sounding like sour grapes, I don't buy it.

Transcribing entire interviews from memory? Reworking an entire interview with the bulk of it not present in the original? And he said he checked the credits of episode 18 of Frontier and saw that Ohnogi wrote it...when it didn't say that at all.

Oh well, whether the fandom believes his excuses or not is not important to me.

His claims of Ohnogi being the credited writer of episodes 18~24 of Frontier are wrong. His claim that there are fifteen volumes of Studio Nue Entertinament Bibles is wrong. His translation of the Famitsu interview is no translation at all, but something entirely different with a few phrases from the Famitsu interview thrown in.

If people want to believe it's a honest mistake, that's fine. Maybe he can even convince me of that.

but the information he has been disseminating is, whatever the reason behind it, not true.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Gubaba

[josue]

Thanks for that, Nexxstrait!

Hmmm...at the risk of sounding like sour grapes, I don't buy it.

Transcribing entire interviews from memory? Reworking an entire interview with the bulk of it not present in the original? And he said he checked the credits of episode 18 of Frontier and saw that Ohnogi wrote it...when it didn't say that at all.

Oh well, whether the fandom believes his excuses or not is not important to me.

His claims of Ohnogi being the credited writer of episodes 18~24 of Frontier are wrong. His claim that there are fifteen volumes of Studio Nue Entertinament Bibles is wrong. His translation of the Famitsu interview is no translation at all, but something entirely different with a few phrases from the Famitsu interview thrown in.

If people want to believe it's a honest mistake, that's fine. Maybe he can even convince me of that.

but the information he has been disseminating is, whatever the reason behind it, not true.

To me it sounds like a very childish excuse. He apologizes and at the same time accuses us of not believing him. And in the end he doesn't say anything about all the "information" he wrote about. I have more to say but I'm too lazy to type. I guess this will make a good conversation topic after the concert.

[-Snowblind-]

I'll wait for a full translation before coming to any final conclusions myself, but... yeah, sounds suspect to me.

Weak defense for what what was presented as fact. Is it not proper to preface an opinion with a statement that it is an opinion? How do you simply misremember a 'source' that never existed in the first place? Why would you cite sources when you now say that you don't have access to said 'sources'?

All of this coupled with avoiding forums, and even his own email (all while admittedly being online?) when he's called on it?

Ehhhhh... sure.

Who knows, though, it's a long post and could have a detailed explanation.

[azrael]

It's called "spin". You should look into it.

[Gubaba]

It looks like it's over. One of the guys at Macross Generation said that I've more than made my point and they'd rather move on to other topics.

I have no desire to end up as a solitary loony over there, shouting "But I've got PROOOOOOF!" to an audience of none.

Anyway, Shaloom admitted that Ohnogi had nothing to do with Frontier. Whether it was deceit or a simple mistake is for them to sort out.

I mean, I'm pretty sure of the answer, but it's not up to me, is it?

EDIT: I hope no one decides to spam them. They're good people over there and they don't deserve it. They didn't have to be nice to me when I showed up, but they were cordial, friendly, and receptive. I just hope they'll demand more proof from Shaloom from now on.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Gubaba

[azrael]

Anyway, Shaloom admitted that Ohnogi had nothing to do with Frontier. Whether it was deceit or a simple mistake is for them to sort out.

I mean, I'm pretty sure of the answer, but it's not up to me, is it?

At this point it's not up to you or any of us. Whether or not people believe Shaloom from now on should be something up to the people reading his "notes" should decide. I had my doubts when those notes first showed up. I continue to maintain those doubts (and they've been reinforced). The 'Net is full of crap, but there is a silver lining in all that crap.

[Fuun]

Hey guys hi!

I'm the typical MW lurker, reading the forums for quite a time, but now I want to participate and all that stuff, it's like I've grown up or something xD

Well I'll try to translate all that Shaloom's post to english, I'm argentinian and my english is somewhat decent I GUESS xD so, I'll give it a try, now.

And, Gubaba, the MG guys are looking at you with doubt, believing that you're some sort of "attention-whore" (couldn't think in a proper word to describe it), that's why some of them are saying that "let's get over this" thing, plus as you might know, in MG Shaloom is one of the most respected fans, super reliable with the info. Well at least now they'll think twice before believing everything he or anyone says.

So, I think you should stay cool and stop posting about it, because like you said, they're trying to minimize in some way the situation, like "this wasn't that bad you know".

Just keep Shaloom's response and be satisfied to know that you were right about all this.

Well now i'm going to take a shower and after that, I'll start the translation.

P.D.: if my english is horrible or something like that, say it now so I won't waste your time with a bad english translation

Edited June 30, 2009 by Fuun

[DeX-kun]

Hey guys hi!

I'm the typical MW lurker, reading the forums for quite a time, but now I want to participate and all that stuff, it's like I've growed up or something xD

Well I'll try to translate all that Shaloom's post to english, I'm argentinian and my english is somewhat decent I GUESS xD so, I'll give it a try, now.

And, Gubaba, the MG guys are looking at you with doubt, believing that you're some sort of "attention-whore" (couldn't think in a proper word to describe it), that's why some of them are saying that "let's get over this" thing, plus as you might know, in MG Shaloom is one of the most respected fans, super reliable with the info. Well at least now they'll think twice before believing everything he or anyone says.

So, I think you should stay cool and stop posting about it, because like you said, they're trying to minimize in some way the situation, like "this wasn't that bad you know".

Just keep Shaloom's response and be satisfied to know that you were right about all this.

Well now i'm going to take a shower and after that, I'll start the translation.

P.D.: if my english is horrible or something like that, say it now so I won't waste your time with a bad english translation

I'm already on the job translating it for you guys. I was born in the US so my English is on point My Spanish is pretty good as well since I grew up speaking it because of my mother so I have a better time translating from Spanish to English (which is the case here.) Anyways, I really think you guys should read this considering he's just making excuses from what I've read

[Fuun]

Oh well then I'll just wait for your translation

Dex-kun is right, Shaloom's just talking about his life and all the hard time he had to stay connected and such. Nothing about the false information.

Well it seems the MG community doesn't care about all this, but at least now we know all those liner notes were altered or directly false.

[Gubaba]

Hey guys hi!

I'm the typical MW lurker, reading the forums for quite a time, but now I want to participate and all that stuff, it's like I've grown up or something xD

Well I'll try to translate all that Shaloom's post to english, I'm argentinian and my english is somewhat decent I GUESS xD so, I'll give it a try, now.

Good. The more the merrier.

And, Gubaba, the MG guys are looking at you with doubt, believing that you're some sort of "attention-whore" (couldn't think in a proper word to describe it), that's why some of them are saying that "let's get over this" thing, plus as you might know, in MG Shaloom is one of the most respected fans, super reliable with the info. Well at least now they'll think twice before believing everything he or anyone says.

So, I think you should stay cool and stop posting about it, because like you said, they're trying to minimize in some way the situation, like "this wasn't that bad you know".

Just keep Shaloom's response and be satisfied to know that you were right about all this.

Well, that's just ducky. And yeah, "attention-whore" is not a label I want.

And, as you say, I was right. Shaloom said so.

I think I'm done with this. My reputation is damaged, maybe beyond repair, among the Spanish-speaking fandom, but that's just more incentive for me to do a bang-up stellar job with my Complete Translation Project.