The Ohnogi Question

[magnuskn]

Can you remember any specific example of how off they were? I'm curious. As the explanation is mildly plausible.

I since deleted the episodes translated by Shalooms group from my hard drive, since I found a spanish group more to my liking and already made and sent out the DVDs to my best friend in Paraguay. Also, I am a bit short on time the next weeks, due to two works I got to present in college in subsequent weeks. Sorry.

However, I´ve looked up the "episode notes" which was on the fansub groups forums, which are different from the more extensive liner notes. Although both are written by Shaloom. Shaloom directly states in them that they changed the name of Klan Klein to Kuran Kuran and Mr. Birura into Mr. Birla, because "Big West sent the real names to him". Make of this what you will.

Edited June 15, 2009 by magnuskn

[mike_s_6]

I just went to MG and I think some posters are more supporting the idea that Shaloom and Gubaba reconcile this in private (instead of starting some "drama" in their forum)... Thing is, I think this is NOT a private matter at all. Shaloom and Gubaba are not fighting against each other. They are arguing over the truth of some translations, which involve not only them, but the community. Is there anyone proficient enough in Spanish to translate what is here to MG?

[Gubaba]

I just went to MG and I think some posters are more supporting the idea that Shaloom and Gubaba reconcile this in private (instead of starting some "drama" in their forum)... Thing is, I think this is NOT a private matter at all. Shaloom and Gubaba are not fighting against each other. They are arguing over the truth of some translations, which involve not only them, but the community. Is there anyone proficient enough in Spanish to translate what is here to MG?

I just left a note there saying I wouldn't bother anyone about it. I've informed them, which is all I really wanted to do. What they do with it is up to them.

But I agree with you. It's not a private matter. Most of us were fooled for quite a while, across several forums and sites. At the same time, I don't want to instigate a site war, so whatever they think is fair is okay by me.

So if Shaloom wants to deal with it in private, I'm happy to do so. All I need from him is some kind of scan or photo of either the Studio Nue Entertainment Bible Vol. 15, some kind of audio file of the Bobby/Ohnogi interviews, or a scan or photo of any Japanese source that mentions Ohnogi working on Frontier.

If he can produce any one of these things, I'll do whatever he wants in order to apologize.

[Killer Robot]

I agree as well, this is anything but a private and personal dispute or some kind of "site war" - rather, this is entirely about public claims and published materials, so the evidence belongs in a public forum so that interested and disinterested parties alike can see it for themselves.

[Gubaba]

I agree as well, this is anything but a private and personal dispute or some kind of "site war" - rather, this is entirely about public claims and published materials, so the evidence belongs in a public forum so that interested and disinterested parties alike can see it for themselves.

I agree, but hey...Shaloom made the original claims in public. I called him on it in public. But I also insulted him, which I shouldn't have done. I'd say that allows him to call the shots for now.

Of course, he hasn't said ANYTHING about it one way or another yet. I don't think he's been to the Macross Generation Forums in about a week or so.

No matter what happens, though, and no matter how much of it is private, everyone will know the outcome. If he can A) somehow explain why the Famitsu Interview says something completely different from what he said it says, B) provide clips from a radio show that no one else in Japan ever seems to have heard (and which the Macross F website never bothered to advertise), or C) show me Vol. 15 of a book that EVERYONE, professional and amateur alike, says has only two volumes, then I will apologize publicly and do whatever I can to mend bridges.

If he can't do any of those things, then I won't apologize. Simple as that.

I think I've done a good job of documenting my sources, which puts the burden of proof on him (I mean, it always was on him, but now there's added pressure, so to speak). So any kind of resolution, public or private, should be pretty clear-cut...and everyone should be able to agree to the outcome.

[mike_s_6]

Google translate of recent post:

They spent 25 years at that time and, frankly, I do not think she has a record of everything that has been written about Macross.

SO THEN WHO HAS IT <__<;;

[dreamweaver13]

I just went to MG and I think some posters are more supporting the idea that Shaloom and Gubaba reconcile this in private (instead of starting some "drama" in their forum)... Thing is, I think this is NOT a private matter at all. Shaloom and Gubaba are not fighting against each other. They are arguing over the truth of some translations, which involve not only them, but the community. Is there anyone proficient enough in Spanish to translate what is here to MG?

I agree, they're missing the point. sigh.

[Gubaba]

Google translate of recent post:

SO THEN WHO HAS IT <__<;;

No one. That was a point Shaloom made to me when I first asked him (through Magnuskn, who very kindly translated Shaloom's response) about this.

I don't want to quote the exact text, since it was a private message, but he said that there is no definitive Macross website (not even the Compendium) because the creators of the show (like Kawamori, Mikimoto, Tomita, and of course, Ohnogi) wrote and drew a lot of material that was only ever published in doujinshis. It was never official, so it has never been officially recognized. And anyway, who has it, besides a few guys who went to a Tokyo anime convention in 1983, and have long since forgotten that they have something rare?

On the face of it, it seems understandable. Of course no one knows how many doujinshis were produced for Macross. And yes, however unlikely, it's always possible that some original creators worked on a few of them.

However, while Shaloom makes it sound here like the Ohnogi "novels" were amateur publications, he later said they were published in "magazine like Animage and Out between 1986 and 1988." Which should make them eminently more high-profile (and available). Shaloom said he only had a couple of the stories himself. But when we asked him which issues he had, we never got an answer.

The thing is, once he started mentioning the Studio Nue Entertainment Bibles, he moved further into the world of high-profile, well-documented stuff. And the Macross Compendium, in conjunction with amazon.co.jp and the Manadarake website, gave me a pretty complete view of all the Macross novels that are out there, as well as all the books in the Bandai Entertainment Bible Series.

But really, if that were all I had had to go on, I would never have started this thread. It's the bit that Ohnogi "said" that worked on Macross Plus and that none of the books about Frontier mention his involvement that prompted me to post it. And it was the Famitsu interview that prompted me to tell all on Macross Generation.

[mike_s_6]

Do I hear some sort of deafening silence? ...

[dreamweaver13]

Do I hear some sort of deafening silence? ...

well, i do hear crickets chirping.... and a crow suddenly flying by crying "a-ho, a-ho".

Edited June 16, 2009 by dreamweaver13

[Gubaba]

Do I hear some sort of deafening silence? ...

I think they're waiting for Shaloom to respond.

I hope he does so soon, though. I'd like this to be over and done with, and I'm sure everyone else does, too.

[mike_s_6]

Some from MG needs to poke Shaloom

[Gubaba]

Some from MG needs to poke Shaloom

Even though he hasn't been on the site in past few days, I can't believe he doesn't know.

Maybe he's just busy marshaling all his evidence...

[DeX-kun]

Even though he hasn't been on the site in past few days, I can't believe he doesn't know.

Maybe he's just busy marshaling all his evidence...

Well either that or he's just afraid to come back considering everything that is waiting for him

[Gubaba]

Well either that or he's just afraid to come back considering everything that is waiting for him

Maybe, maybe not. I really can't say.

Me, I'm using the extra time to jump ahead in the Kawamori Commentary, translating eps. 18~24, and going through the Famitsu Interview.

I also found a few extra nuggets of info on Macross Generation, including some lines from the Interview mistranslated by Shaloom.

My favorite is this:

キラッを聞かせせるためだけに12話を作った ("We made Episode 12 solely so that the "Kira!" could be heard").

Which Shaloom says means:

"Sólo hice el episodio 12 buscando enojar a la gente, de ahi el "brilla" (kira)" (We made Episode 12 solely to make people angry, and then the "Kira!")

This, by the appears as part of the "Commentary on Episode 12" in Shalom's "translation," but doesn't appear as anything of the sort in the actual interview.

[mike_s_6]

My favorite is this:

キラッを聞かせせるためだけに12話を作った ("We made Episode 12 solely so that the "Kira!" could be heard").

Which Shaloom says means:

"Sólo hice el episodio 12 buscando enojar a la gente, de ahi el "brilla" (kira)" (We made Episode 12 solely to make people angry, and then the "Kira!")

This, by the appears as part of the "Commentary on Episode 12" in Shalom's "translation," but doesn't appear as anything of the sort in the actual interview.

I'm a novice in the Japanese language, but I don't see the word for "angry" in that line at all And I recognize the kanji he converted to "angry" it's actually basic since it's the one for "hearing/listening".

怒 vs. 聞 < (@__@;

[nexxstrait]

And "Kira" stands for? I've found "fine clothes", but that doesn't really mean anything in this context.

Edit:

It also means "to dislike, to hate", right?

So, what's the meaning of the whole sentence? (I beg your pardon for my absolute ignorance)

Edited June 19, 2009 by nexxstrait

[Lindem Herz]

Kira in this case is an onomatopoeia, the twinkle of a star - specifically, the sound that Ranka says when she does the hand thingie while singing Interstellar Flight in ep.12, which is supposed to be the sound of the stars twinkling. So, actually, nothing of real importance on itself.

[dreamweaver13]

Kira in this case is an onomatopoeia, the twinkle of a star - specifically, the sound that Ranka says when she does the hand thingie while singing Interstellar Flight in ep.12, which is supposed to be the sound of the stars twinkling. So, actually, nothing of real importance on itself.

Having watched Deathnote a few weeks before watching MF, i initially thought that "kira" was a way of ranka saying "i'm killing you with my moe-ness!"

[Gubaba]

Having watched Deathnote a few weeks before watching MF, i initially thought that "kira" was a way of ranka saying "i'm killing you with my moe-ness!"

Hey, the only blood spilled in the riot on Gallia IV was the Zentradi nosebleed, so you're kinda right!

[nexxstrait]

Kira in this case is an onomatopoeia, the twinkle of a star - specifically, the sound that Ranka says when she does the hand thingie while singing Interstellar Flight in ep.12, which is supposed to be the sound of the stars twinkling. So, actually, nothing of real importance on itself.

Got it, thanks!

Having watched Deathnote a few weeks before watching MF, i initially thought that "kira" was a way of ranka saying "i'm killing you with my moe-ness!"

Ow, that sent shivers of terror down my spine

Edited June 20, 2009 by nexxstrait

[Bri]

There seems to be a wiki page on Japanese sound symbolism. It mention the use of sounds for objects that don't make sounds originally like kira.

Sound symbolism

[Gubaba]

Part Three: The Famitsu Interview, and Macross Generation

I'm going to try to keep this short. I think a lot has changed between when I began this Ohnogi essay and now, and the whole thing is threatening to get away from me. Simply put, after posting Part Two of the essay, I did two things: I joined Macross Generation forums and I bought Famitsu #1035. Both, I believe, put to rest the Ohnogi controversies.

Yes, I said "controversies." The issue of whether Ohnogi wrote parts of Frontier is really just one of several issues, all of wich center around Shaloom, the administrator of Macross Generation forums. Checking out the forums made me realize he's been at this little Ohnogi game longer than I thought, and had I seen some of his posts that hadn't been translated into English, I could've solved this little mystery much sooner...

Simply put, there are two main issues:

1. Did Ohnogi write a large number of Macross novels and short stories that are currently exceedingly rare?

2. Did Ohnogi write episodes 18~24 of Frontier?

The answer to the first question is not easily determined with any certainty, for reasons I've already discussed. But the answer to the second question is now a resounding NO.

I initially thought the Famitsu Magazine interivew with Kawamori was where Shaloom first claimed that Ohnogi wrote the last episodes of Frontier, but then I found this:

http://forums.macrossgeneration.com/index....ost&p=14800

"Pues estaba revisando los creditos del episodio...

Me lo reservo para los liner notes? Nah...

El guionista de este episodio es Hiroshi Ohnogi

Se lo guardo Kawamori para esta ocasion?

con razon.... creo que nadie mas como el... para escribir el guion de este episodio.

Para los nuevos Hiroshi Ohnogi es el escritor de los momentos mas emotivos en todo Macross.

DYRL, el capitulo de Rainy Night, la muerte de Focker, Macross Plus... ufff

Y me preguntaba por que no estaba en Frontier."

Or, in English:

"Well I was reviewing the credits of the episode ...

Should I save it for the liner notes? Nah ...

The writer of this episode is Hiroshi Ohnogi

...was Kawamori saving him for this time?

It figures.... I think no one could write the script of this episode... better than him.

For the new guys, Hiroshi Ohnogi is the writer of the most emotional moments throughout Macross.

DYRL, the "Rainy Night" episode, the death of Focker, Macross Plus ... ufff

And I wonder why he wasn't working on Frontier."

Now, the problems:

1. Reviewing the credits? The credits for episode 18 do NOT show Ohnogi's name.

2. DYRL was written by Sukehiro Tomita.

3. "Rainy Night" and "Pinapple Salad" were written by Hiroyuki Hoshiyama.

4. Macross Plus was written by Keiko Nobumoto.

The whole thing is so blatantly false that it's insulting.

Regarding the Famitsu Interview, I've already posted scans of it. There is no episode commentary, there is no mention of Ohnogi. I doubt Shaloom ever saw the magazine itself.

Everything from his version that is actually IN the interview can be found here:

http://forums.macrossgeneration.com/index....ost&p=19244

He clearly took that, (mis)translated it, and plopped it in with some fake Kawamori commentary of his own devising. I'm currently translating the REAL Kawamori commentary, and it is nothing like what Shaloom has Kawamori saying here.

To be quite honest, although I was having fun with this research at the beginning, I no longer am. I've sent Shaloom an email and a PM, but have gotten no response from him. He hasn't shown up on his own forums for a week and a half now (although he seems to be visiting youtube regularly...maybe I should try contacting him there?). The more I find, the more ridiculous it gets, and trying to cite everything that false in his claims is a daunting task. As is translating an entire interview that looks interesting, but not essential, and which (as I said) I'm sure Shaloom never read anyway.

My original impression was that Shaloom was doing this out of spite because Sheryl didn't end up being Alto's girl. I no longer think that. He started his stream of misinformation well before the series ended.

I wish I could say it was a mistake, or a mix-up, or some other kind of innocent error. But it's not.

It's a hoax. Of that, I'm certain.

EDIT: Lindem Herz fixed some errors in my translation from Spanish. Thanks!

Edited June 21, 2009 by Gubaba

[VFTF1]

So the moral of the story is that if you didn't know how to read Spanish, you wouldn't have worried so much?

Pete

[Gubaba]

So the moral of the story is that if you didn't know how to read Spanish, you wouldn't have worried so much?

Pete

Yes. One of the frustrating things about all of this was first, tracing where the Ohnogi information came from, because by the time I started taking notice, it was all over the place (bishopcruz was the one who found that everything went back to Shaloom). It had also gone through several mutations, with some people saying the interviews were on the DVD commentary, and even Zinjo saying that he had heard that Ohnogi had declined to have his name in the credits.

If I had seen the Episode 18 post where Shaloom said he checked the credits and had seen Ohnogi's name, I would've been able to get over the "Maybe it's true" phase much more quickly, and get on to the actual disproving.

Hell, if I'd seen it at the time he posted it, I could've checked that same day, posted something like "No, Yoshino es el escritor," and the whole situation could've been cut off of at the knees before it even left Macross Generation Forums.

After seeing that post, I got so annoyed and disgusted with the whole thing that I don't really want to deal with it anymore. I wish Shaloom would talk to me, even if in private, just so I can get some answers.

On the plus side, all the people here, at Animesuki, and (most importantly) at Macross Generation have been really supportive. The more I found out, the less believable "Well, maybe it's all just a huge mistake" became as an answer, which made this a touchy subject. Once I started postingon Macross Generation, it became a VERY touchy subject, and handling it the wrong way could've turned the whole thing into a full-on site war. As it is, I'm not sure anyone over there believes me yet, but they're willing to listen, which shows a real generosity of spirit.

And the longer Shaloom stays away, the worse it looks for him. I've sent him emails as well as a PM, so he can't claim ignorance. Unless he hasn't gone online at all in the last two weeks, but I know that's not the case.

Anyway, as I said before, I just want it to be over, and I'm sure everyone else does, too.

[Mr March]

I'm getting the feeling from the description of the Macross Generation situation that you're being ignored, probably in the hope that you and/or this issue will "go away." Not a bad tactic really, since eventually, everyone will get bored with this and it's on to the next thread.

On a more pointed issue, I'm really sorry you and bishopcruz have to waste your time with this. What I originally feared in all this (losing patience and getting angry) is starting to creep in. Like I've said several times now, this is what I hate the most about this situation, the unnecessary work for what is a hoax wasting everyone's time. We rely on fans like the two of you to volunteer your time and effort doing translations all for our benefit. The more time you have to devote to crap like this Shaloom BS and the more it frustrates you, the less likely you are to be motivated to work on real translations. Negative associations will follow. I too hope this is all cleared up soon, or at least ends in a brawl, which will supply at least some sense of closure.

Edited June 21, 2009 by Mr March

[VFTF1]

The one thing I don't understand is why he would construct such an ellaborate fantasy? I sometimes do things like that; or try to - but always it's an "open hoax" - that is to say - usually it's laced with irony, and if someone unwittingly falls for it, they are usually set right pretty quickly. In any event - if it was a joke - the chap would have no reason to hide and run... he could just write back "ha ha - fooled you all" and everyone would be giddy...

Do you think he made it all up out of a hatred of Ranka? Was it all part of a shipping war kind of thing?

If so - that's pretty intense

Also - it is interseting how people at his site are not fully convinced yet. I guess this just goes to show you how much power people who claim to translate things and know a language and have knowledge on a subject have - it's easy to forget how many noobies, novices and folks with only rudimentary working knowledge of a subject there are out there. I guess it would be like me and say....oh... I dunno...Star Trek. I like it, I've watched most of it (series and movies), but not with the passion and attention of a true fan. Transformers, Macross - Terminator (to some degree) - I think I could fairly call myself well versed in these topics - but even then I'm no expert...

So - it's easy for regular internet users to get manipulated if someone decides to pull an elaborate hoax.

Food for thought...

And thanks for all your work. Can Macrossworld patent Gubaba? I don't know what the forum would do without you

Pete

[Gubaba]

I'm getting the feeling from the description of the Macross Generation situation that you're being ignored, probably in the hope that you and/or this issue will "go away." Not a bad tactic really, since eventually, everyone will get bored with this and it's on to the next thread.

On a more pointed issue, I'm really sorry you and bishopcruz have to waste your time with this. What I originally feared in all this (losing patience and getting angry) is starting to creep in. Like I've said several times now, this is what I hate the most about this situation, the unnecessary work for what is a hoax wasting everyone's time. We rely on fans like the two of you to volunteer your time and effort doing translations all for our benefit. The more time you have to devote to crap like this Shaloom BS and the more it frustrates you, the less likely you are to be motivated to work on real translations. Negative associations will follow. I too hope this is all cleared up soon, or at least ends in a brawl, which will supply at least some sense of closure.

Nah, I'm only getting upset BECAUSE it's taking time away from my real translations. But I spent this morning working banging out the subs for SDFM Episode 14, and I'll start 15 later on today. Add a few pages of "My Fair Minmay" in there, and I'll be right as rain.

And some of the stuff I had to translate for this Shaloom business (like the Kawamori Commentary) was stuff I was going to do anyway. I'm just doing it a couple of years sooner than I otherwise would've.

And really, I'm more frustrated at myself than at anyone else. A clear answer was RIGHT THERE in the Macross Generation thread for episode 18, and yet somehow I failed to find it until yesterday.

And I don't think everyone's ignoring me over there...I think they're waiting for Shaloom to come in with pics of Studio Nue Entertainment Bible Vol. 15 or an mp3 of Bobby interviewing Ohnogi, and then I'll be proven wrong and it'll all be over.

The one thing I don't understand is why he would construct such an ellaborate fantasy? I sometimes do things like that; or try to - but always it's an "open hoax" - that is to say - usually it's laced with irony, and if someone unwittingly falls for it, they are usually set right pretty quickly. In any event - if it was a joke - the chap would have no reason to hide and run... he could just write back "ha ha - fooled you all" and everyone would be giddy...

Do you think he made it all up out of a hatred of Ranka? Was it all part of a shipping war kind of thing?

If so - that's pretty intense

Also - it is interseting how people at his site are not fully convinced yet. I guess this just goes to show you how much power people who claim to translate things and know a language and have knowledge on a subject have - it's easy to forget how many noobies, novices and folks with only rudimentary working knowledge of a subject there are out there. I guess it would be like me and say....oh... I dunno...Star Trek. I like it, I've watched most of it (series and movies), but not with the passion and attention of a true fan. Transformers, Macross - Terminator (to some degree) - I think I could fairly call myself well versed in these topics - but even then I'm no expert...

So - it's easy for regular internet users to get manipulated if someone decides to pull an elaborate hoax.

Food for thought...

Tell me about it...we're so used to just receiving information without checking into it that perpetrating any kind of hoax becomes very, very easy. How many emails have we all gotten saying that Bush waved at Stevie Wonder, or that Obama snubbed the troops in Afghanistan? All of it false, of course, but no one checks.

(One of my relatives sent me TONS of stuff like that. I finally sent her a link to snopes.com and said, "Look it up here before you send it, please." She wrote back and said, "Why do you have take the fun out of everything?" Spreading lies is fun...?)

As for Shaloom's anti-Ranka bias, I no longer think that was the purpose here. Certainly, a lot of the liner notes try to make Ranka look bad, but I think he was USING the Ohnogi construct he had already designed; it wasn't WHY he constructed it. Although I confess I'm still at a loss as to the reason why he started it, what he hoped to gain, and why he picked Ohnogi (Tomita might have been a better choice, since really HAS written tons of Macross stuff).

Edited June 21, 2009 by Gubaba

[mike_s_6]

I guess this just goes to show you how much power people who claim to translate things and know a language and have knowledge on a subject have

This is actually the one bothering me the most. Shaloom has gained enough respect to have so many people believe in him without even the need of showing the source of his translations. But why is Shaloom so silent right now when his words is most needed? I don't mean to be judgmental, but it reeks of guilt.

[Graham]

Do you think he made it all up out of a hatred of Ranka? Was it all part of a shipping war kind of thing?

Just want to call a quick time out from this whole 'Ohnogi' thing to have a quick rant about silly bloody made up internet phrases that don't make any sense, namely "Shipping War"!

First time I ever heard this phrase was in this thread and I had to look it up as I had no idea what it means..........certainly, nothing to do with ships or shipping!!!!!

If you said "shipping war" to me, I would have thought you were talking about the Battle of the Atlantic in WWII, were the U-boats and warships of the German Navy tried to destroy the convoys bringing supplies from the US to the UK. Or perhaps a cost cutting price war between modern day shipping companies. Or perhaps even at a stretch, the ongoing Somali piracy threat to shipping.

Certainly, I would have never guessed in a million years that it refered to "Verbal arguments between people who have different opinions about romantic relationships between characters of a show, book, etc." (definition taken from www.urbandictionary.com).

Rant off.

Graham

[ntsan]

This fact need to be straightened, else when the movie come out it could be the same over again..

[dreamweaver13]

Also - it is interseting how people at his site are not fully convinced yet. I guess this just goes to show you how much power people who claim to translate things and know a language and have knowledge on a subject have - it's easy to forget how many noobies, novices and folks with only rudimentary working knowledge of a subject there are out there. I guess it would be like me and say....oh... I dunno...Star Trek. I like it, I've watched most of it (series and movies), but not with the passion and attention of a true fan. Transformers, Macross - Terminator (to some degree) - I think I could fairly call myself well versed in these topics - but even then I'm no expert...

I'm not actually surprised that there's resistance to believe in MG. after all, they're already a community, and to have someone from outside the community suddenly come in and say that all the things that have been told to them by their leader (?) are false.. that's a tough pill to swallow for anyone. imagine if it were the other way around, someone from another forum says that all of gubaba's translations were false. it would certainly take a lot to convince me. and of course, there's the defense mechanism that kicks in - hey you're just attacking our forum. we don't bother you, so why bother us??

What they have to realize is that gubaba isn't attacking the forum. and most probably, if shaloom's notes stayed inside their forum, this wouldn't have happened. but shaloom's notes did make it out of their forum, and into others. and people from other sites have begun to quote it. if the people in MG realize how much damage shaloom's notes are doing to the entire macross internet community (and not just MG), they'll be much more open to gubaba's expose, since they'll realize it's not an attack on their forum.

[Gubaba]

This is actually the one bothering me the most. Shaloom has gained enough respect to have so many people believe in him without even the need of showing the source of his translations. But why is Shaloom so silent right now when his words is most needed? I don't mean to be judgmental, but it reeks of guilt.

I think his...eccentricity goes back quite a ways, though.

Among my searches for any proof a couple of months back, I found this:

http://www.freelists.org/post/unsdb/Macross-Internet-Radio

I have no idea where it's from, or what exactly they're talking about...but...in 2003, Shaloom says he got permission from Big West for his Macross Radio Show. Maybe it's true, and I certainly can't prove it's not...but I don't really believe it.

Now, Macross Generation Forums hasn't been around very long...two years, I believe. Shaloom didn't REALLY start talking about Ohnogi until July of 2008, with his "Delta War" anecdote (about a short story Ohnogi supposedly wrote about the Megaroad-01, and published in Studio Nue Entertainment Bible Vol. 15 *snicker*). After that, he started laying it on thick.

(He also seems to have a thing for Macross Attack Team, who (as far as I can tell) were a Macross fan group who published some doujinshis ("Sky Angels") in the early '80s. (You can see a small bit here: http://www.macrossworld.com/macross/books/dou_mat2.htm ) According to him, the M.A.T. is still active, and it's longest serving member, Shigeru Gozai, is a big fan of Frontier, and was one of the loudest to applaud handing the series over to Ohnogi.

Of course, any Google search for "Shigeru Gozai" will result in ONLY the Macross Generation Forums getting listed. He's not mentioned anywhere else.)

As another example, the Macross Generation Chronology (written by Shaloom) is taken almost verbatim from the Macross Compendium Chronology with some questionable additions. His section on "Dreaming Prelude: My Fair Minmay, for example, says this: "Esta historia proviene de una mininovela escrita por el staff en 1981, donde se aborda con mas detalle el cumpleaños de Lynn Minmay. El staff del Studio Nue realizo en la pre-producción, muchas historias cortas que dieron detailles a la producción final en la serie de TV." The Macross Compendium (and Egan Loo's AnimEigo liner notes) state that it gives more detail about Minmay's birthday (not entirely true, as it turns out...only the first page or two actually happen on Minmay's birthday) but the idea that it was written in 1981 and was meant to be a part of the series in pre-production is flat-out false. Kawamori, in his introduction to "My Fair Minmay," says nothing of the kind. He says it was written to fill in the background for episodes 9 to 12.

So I think Shaloom's been deceiving people for a while now, it's just that no one ever checked it out (and, to be fair, checking it out was difficult, spanning lots of forums, websites, and asking questions in three different languages. If bishopcruz and I hadn't been working together, I doubt either of us would've gotten very far on our own).

But yes, he clearly has a reputation as the go-to guy for Macross in Spanish. Pulling this kind of prank should immediately dethrone him from that position, though. Even if things go back to normal on Macross Generation, I think the English-speaking fandom will no longer accept what he says at face value.

[Gubaba]

I'm not actually surprised that there's resistance to believe in MG. after all, they're already a community, and to have someone from outside the community suddenly come in and say that all the things that have been told to them by their leader (?) are false.. that's a tough pill to swallow for anyone. imagine if it were the other way around, someone from another forum says that all of gubaba's translations were false. it would certainly take a lot to convince me. and of course, there's the defense mechanism that kicks in - hey you're just attacking our forum. we don't bother you, so why bother us??

What they have to realize is that gubaba isn't attacking the forum. and most probably, if shaloom's notes stayed inside their forum, this wouldn't have happened. but shaloom's notes did make it out of their forum, and into others. and people from other sites have begun to quote it. if the people in MG realize how much damage shaloom's notes are doing to the entire macross internet community (and not just MG), they'll be much more open to gubaba's expose, since they'll realize it's not an attack on their forum.

Your first point is what bothers me the most. When I posted the Yoshino Interview on Animesuki, I made certain to include both a typed-out japanese version (so people could use Google translate or something to verify that I wasn't making stuff up) and a scan of the article (so they could check the typed-out version against it). I'm doing the same for the Kawamori Commentary. It's a real hassle, but unfortunately, I think it's necessary now.

Here, I think my"Nyan Fro" Liner Notes, "Miss DJ," and Macross Chronicle translations (easily testable material, since a lot of the members here have them, and some even provided corrections to mistakes that I made) have built up a cache of goodwill towards me, and if I went psycho and started making stuff up, probably no one would check (unless I said something TRULY outrageous).

But then, I'm not claiming to have access to material that no one else has. Currently, the books I'm working on are Toshiki Inoue's novelization of SDFM and "Dreaming Prelude: My Fair Minmay." Both of these are widely (and cheaply) available online, and I welcome anyone to check my work, since (as I repeatedly stress) my Japanese isn't fluent, and I do make mistakes.

Now, some of them get corrected BEFORE they get online, since I also have a few Japanese Macross-fan friends who are willing to help me out (I usually take them out to lunch afterwards).

But I think part of Shaloom's mystique is that he "has access" to materials that NO ONE ELSE, not even Egan Loo, has ever seen or even heard of. That's of course because they don't exist, but hey, no one knew about the Macross Fun Net interview that Renato posted recently, either.

I think Graham, Shawn, and Egan have documented everything quite well, but of course it's always possible that some things have slipped through the cracks. And it's that doubt that Shaloom is exploiting. If he says he has some doujinshi from 1983 that contains material written by one of the actual writers of SDFM, or otherwise-unavailable Miyatake, Mikimoto, or Kawamori artwork, who can dispute it? With no access to the material, we're all in the dark. And he says he doesn't have a scanner, so he can't post pics.

No one can say for sure that he's lying about any of that. Luckily for us, he also made a lot of OTHER mistakes, which have been found out. But if he hadn't claimed Ohnogi wrote Macross Plus (and then in one of the "interviews," having Ohnogi himself claiming credit for Plus), for example, I'd still be in the dark.

So bless 'im for screwing up, because otherwise, we'd all still be eating up his BS and thanking him for it.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Gubaba

[mike_s_6]

And he says he doesn't have a scanner, so he can't post pics.

"If there's a will, there's a way. If there's no will, there are a lot of reasons." He doesn't even have a camera? None of his friends can lend him one? He can't go to an internet cafe with scanning service? Incredulous! I and at least 5 of my close friends have a good enough camera that can act just as good as a scanner does!