Mercurial Morpheus Posted June 6, 2009 Posted June 6, 2009 Thank you for the time and effort you've put in this, Gubaba. It's a rather interesting situation. Most of what's here does suggest that either Shaloom has resources and items that he cares to only access himself, or he's one seriously misinformed or hyper-imaginative individual. While it can't be conclusively disproved that the stuff exists, it generally is common sense that multiple sources are required to say it did. Most of this appears to be the word of one man, and no matter how honest and respected he may or may not be, it's not enough. So it's really odd that it's been accepted without question. Especially since he has all these sources, but no means or will to share them outside his own text. It seems basically all fan fiction. I'd love to see the interview disproved as well, for pretty much your reasons. I remember reading it in FV's thread and being nearly sickened by it's portrayal of Kawamori. Particularly the whole lack of faith in his own creation bit. It's also funny how it paints him negatively as having a Ranka bias, while there seems no issue in Ohnogi's Sheryl bias. Even Ebata is portrayed as a huge Sheryl fan, so it does seem somewhat propagandist. It's a shame places like Asuki eat this up, but not surprising I suppose. It reminds me why I don't even lurk there any more. I look forward to reading the rest of it, but I think even the Mythbusters would call this one busted. Though it does beg the deeper question of why? Innocent misinformation on the informer's part (unlikely given the shear amount of wrong or unverifiable info)? To create a scapegoat for those with problem with Frontier? The fun of creating an elaborate ruse and seeing how much sway it can hold. like you said, why taint such good info with a bunch of fan fics. maybe he just wanted to keep an audience but had run out of info. Still there's a grain of truth in every falsehood, so it makes it all the more interesting. Quote
Gubaba Posted June 6, 2009 Author Posted June 6, 2009 Thank you for the time and effort you've put in this, Gubaba. It's a rather interesting situation. Most of what's here does suggest that either Shaloom has resources and items that he cares to only access himself, or he's one seriously misinformed or hyper-imaginative individual. While it can't be conclusively disproved that the stuff exists, it generally is common sense that multiple sources are required to say it did. Most of this appears to be the word of one man, and no matter how honest and respected he may or may not be, it's not enough. So it's really odd that it's been accepted without question. Especially since he has all these sources, but no means or will to share them outside his own text. It seems basically all fan fiction. I'd love to see the interview disproved as well, for pretty much your reasons. I remember reading it in FV's thread and being nearly sickened by it's portrayal of Kawamori. Particularly the whole lack of faith in his own creation bit. It's also funny how it paints him negatively as having a Ranka bias, while there seems no issue in Ohnogi's Sheryl bias. Even Ebata is portrayed as a huge Sheryl fan, so it does seem somewhat propagandist. It's a shame places like Asuki eat this up, but not surprising I suppose. It reminds me why I don't even lurk there any more. I look forward to reading the rest of it, but I think even the Mythbusters would call this one busted. Though it does beg the deeper question of why? Innocent misinformation on the informer's part (unlikely given the shear amount of wrong or unverifiable info)? To create a scapegoat for those with problem with Frontier? The fun of creating an elaborate ruse and seeing how much sway it can hold. like you said, why taint such good info with a bunch of fan fics. maybe he just wanted to keep an audience but had run out of info. Still there's a grain of truth in every falsehood, so it makes it all the more interesting. Yeah, I think it's quite interesting as an example of mirrors reflecting mirrors. Some fans detail the problems they have with Frontier, someone creates a false "official" interview telling those fans that they're absolutely right, and the fans use that interview as proof that they were right. In other news, apparently "Ohnogi" also "wrote" a story that tells the story of the Megaroad-01, called "Delta War": http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=e...en%26safe%3Doff This information comes EXCLUSIVELY from Shaloom of Macross Generation! Quote
Xeros Posted June 6, 2009 Posted June 6, 2009 (...) In other news, apparently "Ohnogi" also "wrote" a story that tells the story of the Megaroad-01, called "Delta War": http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=e...en%26safe%3Doff This information comes EXCLUSIVELY from Shaloom of Macross Generation! well, he says that the novel comes in the Studio Nue Entertainment Bible any chance to prove it??? Quote
Gubaba Posted June 6, 2009 Author Posted June 6, 2009 (edited) well, he says that the novel comes in the Studio Nue Entertainment Bible any chance to prove it??? Which one, Volume One or Volume Two? I have both, and there are no stories in either of them. Edited June 6, 2009 by Gubaba Quote
Renato Posted June 7, 2009 Posted June 7, 2009 Which one, Volume One or Volume Two? I have both, and there are no stories in either of them. I just read the post in the forums, and it wasn't specified which volume. In fact, the "Entertainment Bible" was referred to as one book, so I think nobody realizes there are two volumes. And they're saying it is extremely rare, and no-one can get hold of it, and there are no scans anywhere. Er...Isn't this one of them? http://www.macrosshare.com/search/label/Miscellaneous Quote
Gubaba Posted June 7, 2009 Author Posted June 7, 2009 I just read the post in the forums, and it wasn't specified which volume. In fact, the "Entertainment Bible" was referred to as one book, so I think nobody realizes there are two volumes. And they're saying it is extremely rare, and no-one can get hold of it, and there are no scans anywhere. Er...Isn't this one of them? http://www.macrosshare.com/search/label/Miscellaneous Nah, that's the Macross Entertainment Bible. The Studio Nue ones look like this: As I said, I have both of them. Volume Two has a lot of text towards the end, but there are no "ten-page stories" or any stories of any kind. The text is all "Studio Nue Starship Library," which look like they were magazine columns, talking about the intricacies of mecha design or something like that. Other than that, the books are all lineart (with explanation and commentary). Interestingly, the editors make a number of gaffes, including talking a lot about "FLASHBACK 2019." I bought them because of ANOTHER story Shaloom said was in them. They weren't really expensive ($21.50 plus shipping), but that's money I could've spent elsewhere if I had known Shaloom was making things up. And I don't really want to take the time to scan the entire books, but I might scan the table of contents for each one, just so people know there are no stories in them. Quote
Renato Posted June 7, 2009 Posted June 7, 2009 Oh, OK, I didn't realise the Studio Nue EBs were separate from the Macross EB. Having said that, I'm guessing people have already looked in the Macross EB and they're not there... right? I will see if I can download it now, I have a bad wireless connection at the moment so it will take a while. Quote
Gubaba Posted June 7, 2009 Author Posted June 7, 2009 Oh, OK, I didn't realise the Studio Nue EBs were separate from the Macross EB. Having said that, I'm guessing people have already looked in the Macross EB and they're not there... right? I will see if I can download it now, I have a bad wireless connection at the moment so it will take a while. Yup, I downloaded that one. There's some color pages, with a summary of Macross. Then there's the "Machanic Chapter" and the "Character Chapter" (all lineart). At the end, there's another summary of Macross. And that's it...unless there are a bunch of pages missing in the download version (which is always possible). Quote
エドワード・エルリック Posted June 7, 2009 Posted June 7, 2009 Well, just because maybe someone actually want to known about this "delta-wars", I will left this: http://forums.macrossgeneration.com/index....amp;#entry12872 (is in spanish but I'm sure google can provide) Quote
Gubaba Posted June 7, 2009 Author Posted June 7, 2009 (edited) Well, just because maybe someone actually want to known about this "delta-wars", I will left this: http://forums.macrossgeneration.com/index....amp;#entry12872 (is in spanish but I'm sure google can provide) Uh-huh. PM'd you. Edited June 7, 2009 by Gubaba Quote
josue Posted June 7, 2009 Posted June 7, 2009 Well, just because maybe someone actually want to known about this "delta-wars", I will left this: http://forums.macrossgeneration.com/index....amp;#entry12872 (is in spanish but I'm sure google can provide) Wow! How much bull... can someone write huh? Quote
Mr March Posted June 7, 2009 Posted June 7, 2009 Well, just because maybe someone actually want to known about this "delta-wars", I will left this: http://forums.macrossgeneration.com/index....amp;#entry12872 Interesting website. So that's the forum where the misinformation is originating? Weird. Quote
Gubaba Posted June 7, 2009 Author Posted June 7, 2009 Interesting website. So that's the forum where the misinformation is originating? Weird. See? It's interesting! Although at this point, I'm more curious about the motivations. Why would someone make all this up? And why would we have an obvious "covert agent" like エドワード・エルリック ("Edward Elric") up there providing links to even more damning stuff as though it proves something? Quote
Mr March Posted June 7, 2009 Posted June 7, 2009 LOL Well, maybe it is a prank. Or maybe an angry former fan of Macross. Or perhaps someone just likes to manipulate others. Or a disgruntled Robotech fan infuriated that Macross Frontier doesn't look as utter crap as Shadow Chronicles? I will say, this is kinda an insidious way of going about things, but I guess I'm just not disturbed enough to understand the motives behind this conspiracy Quote
Gubaba Posted June 7, 2009 Author Posted June 7, 2009 LOL Well, maybe it is a prank. Or maybe an angry former fan of Macross. Or perhaps someone just likes to manipulate others. Or a disgruntled Robotech fan infuriated that Macross Frontier doesn't look as utter crap as Shadow Chronicles? I will say, this is kinda an insidious way of going about things, but I guess I'm just not disturbed enough to understand the motives behind this conspiracy But he's one of the founders of the Macross Generation website...it would be like if Shawn or Graham started pulling stuff out of their rears and passing it off as real. If someone found out, it would create mayhem here...wouldn't it? Quote
Xeros Posted June 7, 2009 Posted June 7, 2009 Interesting He says that the Studio Nue Entertainment Bible is a set of 15 mini books, where the first 11 were focused on lineart and the last 4 are the (in)famous text stories Quote
Gubaba Posted June 7, 2009 Author Posted June 7, 2009 (edited) Interesting He says that the Studio Nue Entertainment Bible is a set of 15 mini books, where the first 11 were focused on lineart and the last 4 are the (in)famous text stories Yeah. What's weird is that there are only two volumes, according to Japanese Wikipedia, amazon.co.jp, Mandarake, Google, and the list of other books in the "Entertainment Bible Series" on the back flyleaf of the books. If you do a Google Image search for them, you will only find the two volumes, often posted together. For example, look at the picture I posted above, and then look at this (go to the bottom of the page): http://www.starblazers.com/html.php?page_i...27e8dec34b31bb1 I have both books (bought 'em together. They're often sold that way). The first one has five sections: 1) Robots, 2) aircraft, 3) land-based weapons (tanks, cars, etc.), 4) interior illustrations, and 5) a list of the complete works of Studio Nue, 1972-1989. Volume Two has four sections: 1) space ships, 2) submarines and water-based ships, 3) bases and fortresses, and 4) all the "Starship Library" columns from "SF Magazine." The books cover ALL of Studio Nue's work from 1972~1989, leaving nothing out (the pictures of course, are quite small). What are the other nine volumes of lineart filled with? And why is there not even a RUMOR of their existence among Japanese fans? Edited June 7, 2009 by Gubaba Quote
Mr March Posted June 7, 2009 Posted June 7, 2009 But he's one of the founders of the Macross Generation website...it would be like if Shawn or Graham started pulling stuff out of their rears and passing it off as real. If someone found out, it would create mayhem here...wouldn't it? I can't say. I'm really at a loss for a motive. Could be a combination of both the obscurity of the topic and the language barrier. Your analogy makes sense; if Shawn and Graham started inventing stuff (without a context), I suppose it would cause quite a stir Ordinarily, I might just dismiss the whole issue of Ohnogi's supposed involvement in Macross Frontier as an enthusiastic fan that got a few facts wrong. But the more you describe the situation and the more details that come to light, the less likely that possibility and the more it looks like deliberate acts of sabotage. Quote
dreamweaver13 Posted June 8, 2009 Posted June 8, 2009 See? It's interesting! Although at this point, I'm more curious about the motivations. Why would someone make all this up? And why would we have an obvious "covert agent" like エドワード・エルリック ("Edward Elric") up there providing links to even more damning stuff as though it proves something? wow. just wow. delusion? prank? an experiment to check how far it can go? this rabbit hole is getting crazier by the minute. Quote
Graham Posted June 8, 2009 Posted June 8, 2009 There are only two Studio Nue Entertainment Bibles that I know of, personally own and have ever seen listed. I think if there were 15, somebody here would have heard of them or seen them before. I spent a lot of time in the 90s' tracking down as many Macross related books as I could find and only came across the 2 Nue EBs and 2 Macross EBs. In all the Entertainment Bible lists I saw printed in various old magazines, I never saw any mention of any other Nue EBs. Neither had the many anime bookstores I spoke to heard of any others. I'm calling Bravo Sierra! Gubaba, if you want, I'll see if I can dig up the name card and email address of the lady from Satelight that I met at the HK C3 convention recently. She spoke good English and was quite friendly, so maybe she would be willing to answer the Ohnogi question. Graham Quote
Gubaba Posted June 8, 2009 Author Posted June 8, 2009 There are only two Studio Nue Entertainment Bibles that I know of, personally own and have ever seen listed. I think if there were 15, somebody here would have heard of them or seen them before. I spent a lot of time in the 90s' tracking down as many Macross related books as I could find and only came across the 2 Nue EBs and 2 Macross EBs. In all the Entertainment Bible lists I saw printed in various old magazines, I never saw any mention of any other Nue EBs. Neither had the many anime bookstores I spoke to heard of any others. I'm calling Bravo Sierra! Gubaba, if you want, I'll see if I can dig up the name card and email address of the lady from Satelight that I met at the HK C3 convention recently. She spoke good English and was quite friendly, so maybe she would be willing to answer the Ohnogi question. Graham Thank you, but I'm not sure it's necessary. I sent them a email (in Japanese) last week. I'm sure they'll get to it eventually. And do we really need their confirmation? We've been given: A) A writer who is not credited anywhere... B) who was interviewed on a radio show that no one has heard and whose existence is not documented anywhere... C) and who has written dozens of stories that no one has read, and which are likewise not documented anywhere... D) and which were published in books that don't exist. No further questions, Your Honor. Quote
Mr March Posted June 8, 2009 Posted June 8, 2009 Only Horatio himself could wrap this one up any better... Quote
dreamweaver13 Posted June 8, 2009 Posted June 8, 2009 (edited) Thank you, but I'm not sure it's necessary. I sent them a email (in Japanese) last week. I'm sure they'll get to it eventually. And do we really need their confirmation? We've been given: A) A writer who is not credited anywhere... B) who was interviewed on a radio show that no one has heard and whose existence is not documented anywhere... C) and who has written dozens of stories that no one has read, and which are likewise not documented anywhere... D) and which were published in books that don't exist. No further questions, Your Honor. Invisible Pink Unicorn: "Objection, your honor!" Edited June 8, 2009 by dreamweaver13 Quote
dreamweaver13 Posted June 8, 2009 Posted June 8, 2009 Only Horatio himself could wrap this one up any better... :lol: !! Quote
Gubaba Posted June 8, 2009 Author Posted June 8, 2009 Only Horatio himself could wrap this one up any better... I realize you're being sarcastic, but dude...I am SO keeping that. Look at it this way...if you read something about dozens of other Valkyries that Kawamori had designed (no pictures, just descriptions), wouldn't you want to find out more about them for M3? And if the person who posted the info said they came from a few issues of Animedia from '86, wouldn't you want to see them? And even if you were pretty convinced it was all a put-on, wouldn't you still kind of wonder, "what if it's not?" That's kind of the situation I'm facing. The Frontier writing credit was more bishopcruz's part of the mystery, I was never terribly interested in that...the bit that got me was all these Ohnogi novels and short stories (that apparently don't exist). Now I know most people here aren't very interested in the EXISTING Macross novels to worry about ones that don't exist...but since I'm working on the COMPLETE Macross Translation Project, and since part of the purpose of it is to standardize the subs for all the Macross series so that dialogue echoed from one series to another can be recognized to non-Japanese speakers as echoes or homages, well, finding those Ohnogi stories became my top priority for a while. Until I realized they didn't exist. So yeah, Ohnogi didn't work on Frontier, and all the talk about Kawamori not knowing how to tell a decent story, and Ohnogi being the greatest writer ever is all just silly. But more importantly (for me, anyway), there's no story where Max keeps a picture of Milia inside his helmet, there's no story where Minmay wants to meet with Hikaru on his birthday, but he has to escort Misa to earth, there's no story where Hikaru grabs Minmay's hand and she thinks about how warm it is and how he's the brother she never had. All of these tantalizing glimpses into other views of the characters are just fanfiction by Shaloom. There, I said it. happy now? Quote
Mercurial Morpheus Posted June 8, 2009 Posted June 8, 2009 Yeah, pretty much. The why is most intriguing, and i think he people find it interesting but not enough to go about looking up his supposed sources. Especially how he seems to like to cover a lie with another (it's not in the two books, "two, there's fifteen, it's in the last one and only I have it." The guys got to have a cell phone to take a pic of it or something). It basically makes him look like some expert on the series, and who questions the experts, particularly when they run the site? The question now, I suppose, is what to do about it? Lot's of fans are buying into this BS. Though at least it shouldn't spread any further. Quote
Mr March Posted June 8, 2009 Posted June 8, 2009 I realize you're being sarcastic, but dude...I am SO keeping that. There, I said it. happy now? LOL! Glad you liked it I absolutely agree with you. And don't get me wrong, your effort is appreciated. We all know that misinformation about Macross has been a bane for many years. It's just sad that your efforts are being spent disproving crap like this total fan fiction of Ohnogi (I can't believe I can spell that word without looking now). It's good to know to combat this misinformation, but my point is you shouldn't have to be doing this. Shame on Shaloom. Quote
Sulendil Ang Posted June 8, 2009 Posted June 8, 2009 (edited) Still, awesome job for disproving this myth, Gubaba. Your hard work earn my respect. So, what's the verdict? Confirmed, plausible, or busted? I say it's... BUSTED!!! Edited June 8, 2009 by Sulendil Ang Quote
Lindem Herz Posted June 8, 2009 Posted June 8, 2009 ... so, who of us is going to translate Gubaba's work and post it on Macross Generation? I'm utterly disappointed on Shaloom - although I never became part of the community I've been following it since as far back as 2001, when it was only the Shaloom Galilee website and the Anime al Aire webradio program, and I've always referred it to countless non-english speaking fans that wanted a good place to find out more about Macross. I believe that same kind of people, the Spanish Macross community that cannot get their information from here or go to Animesuki, also have the right to know about what was really going in the Satelight offices instead of what they had been told if only to prevent them from misjudging the staff of Frontier. Whatever they decide to think about Shaloom later... well, that's up to them. Quote
Gubaba Posted June 9, 2009 Author Posted June 9, 2009 LOL! Glad you liked it I absolutely agree with you. And don't get me wrong, your effort is appreciated. We all know that misinformation about Macross has been a bane for many years. It's just sad that your efforts are being spent disproving crap like this total fan fiction of Ohnogi (I can't believe I can spell that word without looking now). It's good to know to combat this misinformation, but my point is you shouldn't have to be doing this. Shame on Shaloom. No, it shouldn't have had to be done, but becoming an amateur sleuth for a while was kind of fun. It was just frustrating because Shaloom tended to over his tracks VERY well, referring to books and magazines that exist, but are possessed by very few people. And when cornered (as with the "MBS Macross Radio Show"), he'd make up something even MORE obscure to take its place. It wasn't until I started finding factual errors in the interviews (like "Ohnogi" saying he worked on Plus) before I really started to feel confident that Shaloom was making all of it up. All that said, the REAL Ohnogi is quite a good writer. I really liked his story ("Fancy Days") in My Fair Minmay, and his novella about Misa seems very promising. His episodes for SDFM are some of the best in the series (Matsuzaki's better for the action episodes, Ohnogi's better for the character-driven ones), and I'm sure if he HAD written some episodes for Frontier, they would've been great. But it's hard for me to see his name now without thinking of the pompous ass "interviewed" by "Bobby." And to Lindem Herz...there are a number of people here and at Animesuki who are members of Macross Generation. I can't imagine it'll take too long for news to spread...especially considering the kerfuffle over at AS about it. I'm not sure my prose style is easy to translate (long sentences with lots of dependent clauses), but Google Translation works pretty well between Spanish and English, and I don't think it'll be much of a problem. Quote
Strumvogel Posted June 9, 2009 Posted June 9, 2009 The fact you have facts to back you up will help alot, Gubaba. This being the internet you just know there will be some people who are going to be a pain about this. Facts be damned to them. So in the end this whole Ohnogi stuff turns out to be either the longest running April Fools joke ever(Though I believe that people have been asking questions about it even before then). Or the most dedicated trolling of the Macross community by someone(s?), or something to that effect. Quote
dreamweaver13 Posted June 9, 2009 Posted June 9, 2009 No, it shouldn't have had to be done, but becoming an amateur sleuth for a while was kind of fun. It was just frustrating because Shaloom tended to over his tracks VERY well, referring to books and magazines that exist, but are possessed by very few people. And when cornered (as with the "MBS Macross Radio Show"), he'd make up something even MORE obscure to take its place. It wasn't until I started finding factual errors in the interviews (like "Ohnogi" saying he worked on Plus) before I really started to feel confident that Shaloom was making all of it up. Thanks for this gubaba. It has certainly been an interesting journey. And like you said, you just have to wonder what the motive is behind all this. more than the elaborate scheme, it's the reason behind it that unsettles me. Quote
Gubaba Posted June 9, 2009 Author Posted June 9, 2009 Thanks for this gubaba. It has certainly been an interesting journey. And like you said, you just have to wonder what the motive is behind all this. more than the elaborate scheme, it's the reason behind it that unsettles me. That part doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me, either. Shaloom is defnitely a Sheryl fanatic. All of the Ohnogi interviews (as Final Vegeta pointed out) is really sly pro-Sheryl, anti-Ranka stuff. Likewise, the "references" to "Ohnogi's" "novels" all show Ranka in a bad light compared to Minmay (e.g. Ranka running away from President Glass's funeral service is supposedly a reference to a similar situation where Minmay stayed and sang. Actually, according to the "MACROSS CHECK!" section of the relevant DVD booklet, the scene is a reference to Minmay in the dinner theatre in episode...29? 30? where she likewise didn't sing). Sheryl is continually given Misa's lines from the "novels." Also with the interviews, Shaloom is trying to set up Sheryl as the clear winner of the triangle, and it was only Kawamori's irrational love of Ranka that gave us the triangler ending. There's also a lot of stuff about Max and Roy, and Ozma and Michael. The point of this is entirely unclear to me. Simply put (and I have no evidence for this, so take it for what it's worth), I think the ending made Shaloom angry. Very angry. So angry that he started writing stuff about how the ending SHOULD have been, and how Kawamori cocked the whole thing up. Now he could have written an essay about how much he hated the ending, and he would have gotten a large audience. As far as I can tell, Macross has a large following in Latin America, and Macross Generation seems to be THE premier Macross forum for the Spanish-speaking world. Why he chose instead to present it as fact is a mystery to me. He had to have known someone would find out eventually...unless he really believed he had covered his tracks with such convincing bogus sources that no one would ever find out. And if he thought that, he's essentially right. There's nothing I found that proves anything he said was wrong. There's just nothing that proves it right, either, and a lot of circumstantial evidence to show that it's wrong (such as the fifteen-volume Studio Nue Entrtainment Bible series. As Graham said, if they existed, someone would have found them by now). Anyway, for MONTHS, bishopcruz and I were furiously PMing each other, and all of those messages were pretty much the same: "Looked for the radio show again today. Found nothing." "Really? I looked for the novels today. Still nothing." Finally, I figured we had enough nothing that I'd talk to Magnuskn about it. To his credit, although he didn't believe us at first, he was incredibly helpful and cooperative. Once he saw enough, though, he realized it was probably all a hoax, too. Pretty much everyone I've talked to has eventually been swayed. Well, except Final Vegeta. Quote
Xeros Posted June 9, 2009 Posted June 9, 2009 (edited) I think we should thank to Final Vegeta and Magnuskn too xD they were the ones to brought all this here xD Anyway, I take a look on the macross generation forum and... Someone has started to make questions about the existence of the books, and they put a link to MW as prove of their existence and one image file attached (I'm not registered there, so I can't take a look) http://www.macrossworld.com/macross/books/mac2_eb_mac2.htm funny Edited June 9, 2009 by Xeros Quote
Mr March Posted June 9, 2009 Posted June 9, 2009 (edited) AHA! So the real plot and intentions comes to light! For shame Shaloom, for shame You know, that makes a lot of sense. Especially given the ridiculous 100 page post Final Vegeta made. I wondered where the hell the effort behind that whole theatrical production came from. It was almost written in some kind of "this will be the post to end all posts" on the subject I'm definitely saving this information for posterity. I nominate this thread for a sticky. And three cheers for Gubaba. Never again will I doubt the worth of this investigation Edited June 9, 2009 by Mr March Quote
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