Skull Squadron

[Cyclone Trooper]

This isn't really a question directed at anyone in particular, because I don't think the information on this was ever shared with the general public by SK himself. But then again, I may be wrong...

I know that, by 2059, the U.N. Spacy was reorganized into the New U.N. Spacy (N.U.N.S)...an anacronym that, to this day, sounds like a military division of the Vatican to me...but I digress. After SWI, Skull Squadron pretty much became the poster child for anything remotely related to the U.N. Spacy. We even see glimpses of this fact in MacrossF in the form of Hikaru's DYRL VF-1S (or a replica thereof) being used as a statue atop Alto's school. Being such a well-known Valkyrie squadron and symbol of the U.N. Spacy, you would think that Skull would have remained part of the N.U.N.S. military forces as one of its heavy strike squadrons. But instead, somewhere between 2010 and 2059, Skull became an independent paramilitary outfit...and by all definitions, basically a mercenary group hired to field test prototype military equipment.

I just find this odd, but maybe Skull's history and reputation has allowed it to operate "as it damn well pleases" in the new government? Anyone have any specifics on this?

Edited May 31, 2009 by Cyclone Trooper

[anime52k8]

alternatively, the SMS skull squadron with the frontier fleet isn't connected to the original spacy skull squadron at all.

officially skull squadron went with the Megaroad 01 in 2012. as we know contact with the Megaroad 01 was lost in 2016 and Spacy subsequently covered it up in order to protect future colonization efforts. Most likely as part of the cover up skull squadron would continue to be listed as active aboard the Megaroad 01 eventhough the upper spacy brass consider the whole fleet lost.

Since the SMS is a paramilitary organization not directly under spacy, they are most likely able to organize and name their squadrons however they want, including naming squadrons after other famous historical squardrons even though they have no official link to them.

chances are skull squadron was named after the original skull squad in homage. Or maybe they derived the name from ozma's personal insignia (I don't think anyone has a skull marking of any kind except for ozma who has the large cow skull)

[sketchley]

The MF translation into Skull Squadron *may* be in error.

The Japanese for it is 小隊, which translates as "Platoon". http://linear.mv.com/cgi-bin/j-e/sjis/dose...%E0&WC=none

Therefore, correctly translated it should be "Skull Platoon".

I'm not sure what Japanese term is used to describe the SDF:M Skull Squadron. I can probably find it, but I'm too busy right now. If someone else could...?

[RedWolf]

The name Skull Squadron may have been taken by Hikaru when he left with Megaroad 1.

In 2014 Max and Millia were members of the Dancing Skull Squadron.

Since SMS is a PMC they can call whatever they want with their units.

Frontier's Diamond Squadron could be a homage to Macross 7's Diamond Force.

It wouldn't be unnatural for different fleets to name their squadrons in honor of legends.

[Gubaba]

The MF translation into Skull Squadron *may* be in error.

The Japanese for it is 小隊, which translates as "Platoon". http://linear.mv.com/cgi-bin/j-e/sjis/dose...%E0&WC=none

Therefore, correctly translated it should be "Skull Platoon".

I'm not sure what Japanese term is used to describe the SDF:M Skull Squadron. I can probably find it, but I'm too busy right now. If someone else could...?

It's also "Skull Shotai."

Kind of like the ranks, I think there's a disconnect between army and navy terms going on here. OptimusX could probably clear this up once and for all...

[VFTF1]

I was always curious WHO was originally in Skull Squadron alongside Roy?

Because in SDFM TV Hikaru, Max and Kakizake were Vermillion Team, with Hikaru being Vermillion 1 (Team Leader).

Did Hikaru take over Skull Squadron when Kakizake was killed and Max promoted - leaving Hikaru to take Roy's place as Skull Leader?

And what ever happened to the "rest" of Vermillion Team?

Just how big are these squadrons?

If Alto, Micheal and Luca are part of Ozma's Skull squadron - then does that mean a squadron consists of 3 to 4 valkyrie?

Pete

[Bri]

I was always curious WHO was originally in Skull Squadron alongside Roy?

Because in SDFM TV Hikaru, Max and Kakizake were Vermillion Team, with Hikaru being Vermillion 1 (Team Leader).

Did Hikaru take over Skull Squadron when Kakizake was killed and Max promoted - leaving Hikaru to take Roy's place as Skull Leader?

And what ever happened to the "rest" of Vermillion Team?

Just how big are these squadrons?

If Alto, Micheal and Luca are part of Ozma's Skull squadron - then does that mean a squadron consists of 3 to 4 valkyrie?

Pete

In Macross fighter squadrons are made up of several groups of three. I don't know how many aircraft would be in a valkery squadron but if we compare it to real world fighter squadrons then somewhere between 12 and 24 would be realistic. In episode 19 Hikaru leads Skull squadron on a sortie and you can see 18 planes in flying away which may or may not be the correct number.

Yes, Hikaru got command of Skull squadron when Roy died. Max and Kakizaki were still part of his group until Kakizaki died. In episode 20 the Macross takes aboard (green) replacement pilots send by the UN so a lot of veterans got promoted. Max for example got promoted to 1st Lt. and got his own group.

Focker might have been the CAG of the Macross, not sure if a luitenant like Hikaru was allowed to take that position over right away. Doesn't seem to likely that Hikaru was the second most experienced pilot left alive after Roy. Other squadron commanders must have come first.

Alto Micheal and Luca are a group in SMS skull squadron but Michael and Luca have special roles so they don't act like a typical 3 man group in Macross. Ozma should have his own three man team but we don't get to see much of those two CF pilots.

[sketchley]

It's also "Skull Shotai."

Kind of like the ranks, I think there's a disconnect between army and navy terms going on here. OptimusX could probably clear this up once and for all...

Could be... but given that the VF, in Battroid mode, was envisioned to act as infantry, using "platoon" does make sense.

Anyhow, I did a bit more research on terminology:

Squadron: http://linear.mv.com/cgi-bin/j-e/sjis/dose...ron&WC=none

戦隊,戰隊,遊軍; None of these have been used in Macross F related materials to describe "Skull Platoon".

Fighter Squadron: (found here: http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%A3%9B%E8%A1%8C%E9%9A%8A )

戦闘機中隊 is the most similar, but as it's a 中隊*, it's an order of magnitude larger than 小隊. The same page mentions that the Aerial SDF uses 飛行隊 as "fighter squadron". But as with all things related to the SDF (that's Self Defense Force, not Super Dimensional Fortress), it's probably a vocabulary change to deemphasize the offensive military aspects due to Article 9.

"An air force, army aviation or naval aviation squadron typically consists of three or four flights, with a total of 12 to 24 aircraft, depending on aircraft type and air force." from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squadron#Aviation further confuses things. Is the Wikipedia definition accurate?

Anyhow, I have a gut feeling that Skull Squadron isn't the best translation of スクール小隊. Is there something in the US (or other) Airforce, that is smaller than a squadron, but larger than a wing-pair?

*中隊: http://linear.mv.com/cgi-bin/j-e/sjis/dose...%E0&WC=none

is described as a company, battery, troop.

[RedWolf]

Hmm... Could be about having one CAG and several squadron leaders under him who in turn lead their units.

[Bri]

[...]

"An air force, army aviation or naval aviation squadron typically consists of three or four flights, with a total of 12 to 24 aircraft, depending on aircraft type and air force." from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squadron#Aviation further confuses things. Is the Wikipedia definition accurate?

Anyhow, I have a gut feeling that Skull Squadron isn't the best translation of スクール小隊. Is there something in the US (or other) Airforce, that is smaller than a squadron, but larger than a wing-pair?

"Two sections and supporting ground staff make up a flight"

See section under Wiki page Hierarchy of Airforces

[Gubaba]

Could be... but given that the VF, in Battroid mode, was envisioned to act as infantry, using "platoon" does make sense.

Anyhow, I did a bit more research on terminology:

Squadron: http://linear.mv.com/cgi-bin/j-e/sjis/dose...ron&WC=none

戦隊,戰隊,遊軍; None of these have been used in Macross F related materials to describe "Skull Platoon".

Fighter Squadron: (found here: http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%A3%9B%E8%A1%8C%E9%9A%8A )

戦闘機中隊 is the most similar, but as it's a 中隊*, it's an order of magnitude larger than 小隊. The same page mentions that the Aerial SDF uses 飛行隊 as "fighter squadron". But as with all things related to the SDF (that's Self Defense Force, not Super Dimensional Fortress), it's probably a vocabulary change to deemphasize the offensive military aspects due to Article 9.

"An air force, army aviation or naval aviation squadron typically consists of three or four flights, with a total of 12 to 24 aircraft, depending on aircraft type and air force." from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squadron#Aviation further confuses things. Is the Wikipedia definition accurate?

Anyhow, I have a gut feeling that Skull Squadron isn't the best translation of スクール小隊. Is there something in the US (or other) Airforce, that is smaller than a squadron, but larger than a wing-pair?

*中隊: http://linear.mv.com/cgi-bin/j-e/sjis/dose...%E0&WC=none

is described as a company, battery, troop.

I'm not too sure about Skull, but AnimEigo definitely uses "Vermillion Team," not Squadron.

[Cyclone Trooper]

Okay, so here's another sub-question for you all...I'll post it here instead of creating another thread.

If MacrossF (and all sequel series for that matter) is supposed to be based off of the original SDFM TV series only, then why is Hikaru's DYRL-style red/black VF-1S featured on the top of the school instead of the TV-style yellow/black paint scheme? Every time there's an argument made that everything is based off of the TV series, there's something that pops up that throws a DYRL reference into the mix to make you second-guess everything. The other blatant DYRL reference is at the beginning of most of the first handful of episodes is Bodolza's DYRL "flying pumpkin patch" flagship during the narrator describing the origins of Space War I and subsequent colonization attempts instead of the original asteroid-like construct.

Is this just another example of SK and company pulling elements of what they like from past projects, continuity be damned?

Edited May 31, 2009 by Cyclone Trooper

[RedWolf]

Continuity is still being respected. SDFM TV story events but with DYRL and Macross Plus visuals.

Also to not let a certain dead franchise from profiting from them.

[Gubaba]

Okay, so here's another sub-question for you all...I'll post it here instead of creating another thread.

If MacrossF (and all sequel series for that matter) is supposed to be based off of the original SDFM TV series only, then why is Hikaru's DYRL-style red/black VF-1S featured on the top of the school instead of the TV-style yellow/black paint scheme? Every time there's an argument made that everything is based off of the TV series, there's something that pops up that throws a DYRL reference into the mix to make you second-guess everything. The other blatant DYRL reference is at the beginning of most of the first handful of episodes is Bodolza's DYRL "flying pumpkin patch" flagship during the narrator describing the origins of Space War I and subsequent colonization attempts instead of the original asteroid-like construct.

Is this just another example of SK and company pulling elements of what they like from past projects, continuity be damned?

My view on it (but in reference to Macross the First, not Frontier):

That depends on if you take Macross the First as canonical or not.

Personally, I think trying to decide what's "canonical" and what isn't in Macross is a pretty useless debate. Although the powers that be PRETEND that the TV series is "what happened," they certainly don't act like it. Even Macross Chronicle, which has jst finished retelling the TV series storyline in its Timeline, still treats DYRL mecha and characters as "real," rather than just a movie.

So my advice is to enjoy Macross the First for what it is, and not try to treat it like the answer to our prayers for "fixing" the Macross timeline.

I think it's the best way not to drive yourself crazy.

[kung flu]

I believe each macross colony or ship are like independent nations under a unified flag, so being independent they are able to have their own skull squadrons and special forces. Just like Britain has the SAS and so does Australia and probably other countries in the common wealth or out side of it. End of the day its just a name and it can be applied to what ever they want.

[azrael]

From what I've seen, and as others have stated, calling Ozma's group "Skull Squadron" is most likely, incorrect. "Skull Team", "Skull Squad", or "Skull Group" is probably a much better term. If we go by US Army group sizes, calling them "Skull Platoon" probably won't be correct either. A "platoon" is about 16-40 people made up of 2-3 squads. A "squad" is about 8-15 people, depending on function and is made up of 2-4 fireteams.

[Cyclone Trooper]

Continuity is still being respected. SDFM TV story events but with DYRL and Macross Plus visuals.

Also to not let a certain dead franchise from profiting from them.

Redwolf, normally I'd agree with everything you've ever said in this area, but considering how Toynami somehow got its hooks into the DYRL license by releasing them in 1/100 scale (complete with Strike FPs, which I'm sure confused several fans of said dead franchise), I'm not so sure DYRL is safe from a certain HG...but that discussion is for another thread.

Edited May 31, 2009 by Cyclone Trooper

[sketchley]

Redwolf, normally I'd agree with everything you've ever said in this area, but considering how Toynami somehow got its hooks into the DYRL license by releasing them in 1/100 scale (complete with Strike FPs, which I'm sure confused several fans of said dead franchise), I'm not so sure DYRL is safe from a certain HG...but that discussion is for another thread.

Yes.

The decision by the people behind Macross to use DYRL designs has nothing to do with anything other than creative reasons. They revisioned things in DYRL, and it's their choice to keep using the improved-upon images, or not. (See the mixed SDF:M and DYRL uniforms of the Zentraadi on Garia 4 for further confusion).

[sketchley]

(...) calling them "Skull Platoon" probably won't be correct either. A "platoon" is about 16-40 people made up of 2-3 squads. A "squad" is about 8-15 people, depending on function and is made up of 2-4 fireteams.

Of course, this is a specific countries usage of a term that the original translates into.

Going back to the Japanese, 小隊, it is composed of: 「small; little; tiny] and [party; company; body (of troops); corps]. Or, the smallest unit of troops.

Of course, in SDF:M, it is further divided into 3-person teams. Macross F appears to support that, when it comes to NUNS. But S.M.S?

I think "Skull Squad" is the most accurate of the terms presented - as long as squad is not assumed to be a shortened form of squadron!

Edited May 31, 2009 by sketchley

[Freiflug88]

I think the naming of Macross Frontier's Skull Squadron came from Birla. He was obsessed with finding Minmay and the Megaroad so it would be no surprise for him to name the squad after the Skulls or even have a Replica of Hikaru's Red VF put on the school that taught recruited pilots such as Michael and Luca. Plus considering that Bilra was able to create his own private mercenary group trusted to carry weapons of mass destruction such as the Macross Cannon and nuclear armaments, getting the rights to the Skull Squadron name wouldn't be an issue.

Of course, in SDF:M, it is further divided into 3-person teams. Macross F appears to support that, when it comes to NUNS. But S.M.S?

SMS does support this as well. In episode 7 Macross Quarter is shown to have Brown VF-25s being locked down for transformation and a large number of them as Escort in part of Episode 25 as the Captain gives his rallying speech. Like in SDF:M though only the head Squad leader and his personal team of 3 get the main attention of the series, but none of the less the "Brownies" most likely form the rest of MF's Skull Squadron.

Edited May 31, 2009 by Freiflug88

[David Hingtgen]

The most common definition for a squadron is 12 planes. Can be more or less (especially when there's only a single squadron in the wing) but generally---12 planes per squadron, 3 squadrons per wing.

And my money's on Ozma's Skull Squadron being unrelated to Roy's/Hikaru's. Both the US Navy and US Marines have a "Black Knights" squadron, and they're even both parts of the US military---surely a para-military group can have their own squadron with a name identical to another.

[UN Spacy]

Didn't NUNS also have a Diamond and Vermillion Squadron?

[SchizophrenicMC]

Didn't NUNS also have a Diamond and Vermillion Squadron?

Yup.

Wing: 3 squadrons

Squadron: 3-4 air teams (3 if the bigger, 4 if the smaller)

Air Team: 3-4 planes (Affects number of air teams in a squadron)

Plane: Waitasecond...

So, Skull Team sounds about right. Skull Squad works, but has the confusing connotation that people associate with Squadron.

[Gubaba]

Didn't NUNS also have a Diamond and Vermillion Squadron?

Yes. And if they had REALLY wanted to be awesome, they would've had a Pink Pecker Team, too!

[Kronnang Dunn]

See the mixed SDF:M and DYRL uniforms of the Zentraadi on Garia 4 for further confusion...

Actually it doesn't confuse me at all. Quite the contrary, it makes sense since as far as I know Kawamori himself said in an interview during the 90s that the real Macross lies somewhere between both DYRL and the TV series. I can't wait for the next Macross project to be a re-make of the original TV series with both original and DYRL designs... (A TV/OVA adaptation of ''Macross: The First'' perhaps?)...

Edited June 1, 2009 by Kronnang Dunn

[sketchley]

Yes. And if they had REALLY wanted to be awesome, they would've had a Pink Pecker Team, too!

LOL!

Hey - isn't Pink Pecker the squad that Ozuma was part of?

Yeah, yeah, I know. I'm just trying to create an internet myth.

[Gubaba]

Actually it doesn't confuse me at all. Quite the contrary, it makes sense since as far as I know Kawamori himself said in an interview during the 90s the late '80s that the real Macross lies somewhere between both DYRL and the TV series. I can't wait for the next Macross project to be a re-make of the original TV series with both original and DYRL designs... (A TV/OVA adaptation of ''Macross: The First'' perhaps?)...

Fixed.

Officially, that view was invalidated after Plus and 7 came out, and DYRL was retocnned into a movie within a movie.

Unofficially, I think his words still stand...

[Renato]

Hi there, sorry to complicate things further, but according to the Macross Chronicle's page on Roy Focker, he leads the 「スカル大隊」. And it appears more than once so it's not a typo. I guess they did that to differentiate it from Vermillion Team (小隊shoutai), because I seem to remember that the Vermillion Team was part of Skull Squadron.

Anyway.... Skull Daitai? Skull Taitai? I don't even know which reading is correct. I have NEVER seen this word before, I can't check the anime right now, but I swear it was called Skull Shoutai in the show... unless that was just DYRL and I'm misremembering.

To be honest, if even the canon sources cannot make up their minds on the designations of these things, then there's not much point pulling our hair out trying to come up with the "correct" English terminology. Squadron is fine by me, personally.

EDIT - Looking at the Ozma page now... the SMS Skull Squadron is actually called 「スカル小隊」 Skull Shoutai in Frontier. We knew that, yeah, but I just wanted to make it clear that the Chronicle appears to be going out of its way to differentiate the Frontier and SDF versions of the Skull Squadron. Hmmm...

EDIT 2 --- Nnnnnggh!! According to the timeline pages, the Skull Squadron in Macross Zero is also a "shoutai"! Maybe it was expanded later..?

Edited June 1, 2009 by Renato

[Gubaba]

Hi there, sorry to complicate things further, but according to the Macross Chronicle's page on Roy Focker, he leads the 「スカル大隊」. And it appears more than once so it's not a typo. I guess they did that to differentiate it from Vermillion Team (小隊shoutai), because I seem to remember that the Vermillion Team was part of Skull Squadron.

Anyway.... Skull Daitai? Skull Taitai? I don't even know which reading is correct. I have NEVER seen this word before, I can't check the anime right now, but I swear it was called Skull Shoutai in the show... unless that was just DYRL and I'm misremembering.

To be honest, if even the canon sources cannot make up their minds on the designations of these things, then there's not much point pulling our hair out trying to come up with the "correct" English terminology. Squadron is fine by me, personally.

Crap. I just watched episode six this evening, but I wasn't listening for it...

They either said "Skull Shotai" or simply "Skull Tai." I *think* it was the latter.

[sketchley]

Hi there, sorry to complicate things further, but according to the Macross Chronicle's page on Roy Focker, he leads the 「スカル大隊」. And it appears more than once so it's not a typo. I guess they did that to differentiate it from Vermillion Team (小隊shoutai), because I seem to remember that the Vermillion Team was part of Skull Squadron.

Anyway.... Skull Daitai? Skull Taitai? I don't even know which reading is correct. I have NEVER seen this word before, I can't check the anime right now, but I swear it was called Skull Shoutai in the show... unless that was just DYRL and I'm misremembering.

To be honest, if even the canon sources cannot make up their minds on the designations of these things, then there's not much point pulling our hair out trying to come up with the "correct" English terminology. Squadron is fine by me, personally.

EDIT - Looking at the Ozma page now... the SMS Skull Squadron is actually called 「スカル小隊」 Skull Shoutai in Frontier. We knew that, yeah, but I just wanted to make it clear that the Chronicle appears to be going out of its way to differentiate the Frontier and SDF versions of the Skull Squadron. Hmmm...

大隊 「だいたい」

http://linear.mv.com/cgi-bin/j-e/sjis/dose...%E0&WC=none

Hmm... if Vermillion Team is a 小隊, then it must be Skull Team in MF.

Which makes a bit more sense to me.

Anyhow, going back to the original post on this: the insignia are different. Ergo, they are different.

[Cyclone Trooper]

Okay. Got it. SMS's Skull is in no way affiliated with the U.N. Spacy's Skull (or N.U.N.S's Skull, if there IS one). This was something that was never really made clear to me just going on watching the series. And as far as the differences in insignias, fighter groups DO update their insignias every so often...so I figured that within the 50-year timespan between Space War I and the Vajra Incident, Skull just adopted a new one along the way. Why the Jolly Roger was replaced by a cow skull was beyond me...so that should have been my first clue that the two squadrons were independent of one another.

[D.D. Ivanov]

EDIT 2 --- Nnnnnggh!! According to the timeline pages, the Skull Squadron in Macross Zero is also a "shoutai"! Maybe it was expanded later..?

I've always assumed that Skull Squadron was Roy's squadron pre-SDF-M, was assigned to evaluate the VF-0 when that craft was release, and upgraded to the VF-1 once it became operational. It's perfectly normal for fighter squadrons to upgrade aircraft once theirs are obsolete. I mean, the VFA-103 "Jolly Rogers" have gone from flying Corsairs to Cougars to Phantom IIs, then to F-14As, Bs, then the F/A-18E Hornet.

Also, given the styling of the Valkyries, I'd assume Roy flew an F-14 beforehand.

[SchizophrenicMC]

I've always assumed that Skull Squadron was Roy's squadron pre-SDF-M, was assigned to evaluate the VF-0 when that craft was release, and upgraded to the VF-1 once it became operational. It's perfectly normal for fighter squadrons to upgrade aircraft once theirs are obsolete. I mean, the VFA-103 "Jolly Rogers" have gone from flying Corsairs to Cougars to Phantom IIs, then to F-14As, Bs, then the F/A-18E Hornet.

Also, given the styling of the Valkyries, I'd assume Roy flew an F-14 beforehand.

Not to mention the F-203 Dragon II.

[D.D. Ivanov]

Oh, right, forgot about that thing.

[Radd]

Officially, that view was invalidated after Plus and 7 came out, and DYRL was retocnned into a movie within a movie.

I don't agree with this assumption. Yes, the DYRL we know and love was apparently moved into the official time line as a movie within the Macross world, but Kawamori's statement was that the "true" events of Space War 1 are "somewhere between DYRL and SDF:M." Making DYRL a movie within the series does not invalidate that statement at all.