Is Anime insulting your intelligence?

[Excillon]

OK, this is going to be one of those "If it wasn't for Gundam you wouldn't have Macross" topics, but really. Ok, Macross DOES borrow elements from Gundam. It does, no doubt about it. No big deal, I like them both, so bonus for me. Then Mospeada borrows from Macross. Then Patlabor borrows, then Evangelion borrows, then Code Geass borrows, then Gundam borrows from one of it's offspring. It's commonplace, and up until recently it didn't bother me. However, one thing does bother me:

Macross Frontier:

I liked it, sort of. Visually amazing, not a bad story, but, has it gotten so bad that Macross had to rip ITSELF off? There's a fine line between an homage and blatant stealing, and this was the most INBRED thing I have ever seen. Come on, the kid with glasses who happens to be a badass flying a BLUE valk? Skull leader happens to be older, have wierd hair and the same looking valk? Alto too. Yeah, there were some differences, but not enough for me. The series was less of a continuation and more of a reboot, and if it was a reboot, it wasn't a very good one.

Code Geass: I've been catching up, and all I have to say is "Code Gundam".

Gundam 00: Oh christ...I love Gundam, but this series is sooooooo corny, preachy, and downright theft of SO MANY other anime concepts I can't even begin to list them.

Evangelion: This was a glorified, artsy fartsy rip off of Gundam. Obviously.

The new Appleseed movies: Ok, John Woo had a hand in it. That instantly means "write a lame story around Karate and guns". I don't even really consider these animes.

I guess the point is don't we, as consumers who pump millions of dollars into this genre via movies, toys, models, etc. have a right to demand something refreshing other than "howl's moving castle"? I just don't see the same refreshing storytelling I used to find. I'm so sick of teenage angst piloting mecha. It's just become so formulaic...If anyone's got any newer anime's they can recommend other than Bleach and Death Note, I'm open to suggestions.

Edited May 26, 2009 by Excillon

[taksraven]

Everything insults my intelligence, including anime!

Taksraven

[kaiotheforsaken]

Starts with Gurren and ends with Lagann and makes Gundam look lame as hell.

[Keith]

Didn't think Frontier borrowed too much at all, though all Space Opera's are derivative of Uchuu Senkan Yamato, and all super robot anime of Mazinger Z. Naturally Gundam set the benchmark for suedo-real mecha series.

With that said, Evangelion shares very little in common with Gundam, it borrows much more heavily from Hideaki Anno's first two projects, Gunbuster & Nadia. Me thinks you're just too jaded to differenciate.

[Seto Kaiba]

Eh, it's bound to start repeating itself a little bit eventually... usually they're not shamelessly ripping each other off, it's just repetition of common themes and plot devices, some of which have existed in stories since before we even had a written language.

[wolfx]

And here i thought it will insult my intelligence this way....

But meh...watch enough anime and you're bound to see similarities even when they're not there. I'd say you're just jaded and overcritical. That said I don't see Code Geass anything like Gundam especially when it has little to do with the mecha and the model/toy line sucks balls.

[dreamweaver13]

OK, this is going to be one of those "If it wasn't for Gundam you wouldn't have Macross" topics, but really. Ok, Macross DOES borrow elements from Gundam. It does, no doubt about it. No big deal, I like them both, so bonus for me. Then Mospeada borrows from Macross. Then Patlabor borrows, then Evangelion borrows, then Code Geass borrows, then Gundam borrows from one of it's offspring. It's commonplace, and up until recently it didn't bother me. However, one thing does bother me:

Macross Frontier:

I liked it, sort of. Visually amazing, not a bad story, but, has it gotten so bad that Macross had to rip ITSELF off? There's a fine line between an homage and blatant stealing, and this was the most INBRED thing I have ever seen. Come on, the kid with glasses who happens to be a badass flying a BLUE valk? Skull leader happens to be older, have wierd hair and the same looking valk? Alto too. Yeah, there were some differences, but not enough for me. The series was less of a continuation and more of a reboot, and if it was a reboot, it wasn't a very good one.

Code Geass: I've been catching up, and all I have to say is "Code Gundam".

Gundam 00: Oh christ...I love Gundam, but this series is sooooooo corny, preachy, and downright theft of SO MANY other anime concepts I can't even begin to list them.

Evangelion: This was a glorified, artsy fartsy rip off of Gundam. Obviously.

The new Appleseed movies: Ok, John Woo had a hand in it. That instantly means "write a lame story around Karate and guns". I don't even really consider these animes.

I guess the point is don't we, as consumers who pump millions of dollars into this genre via movies, toys, models, etc. have a right to demand something refreshing other than "howl's moving castle"? I just don't see the same refreshing storytelling I used to find. I'm so sick of teenage angst piloting mecha. It's just become so formulaic...If anyone's got any newer anime's they can recommend other than Bleach and Death Note, I'm open to suggestions.

wow, i can't even begin to imagine what anime series you're a fan of.

[anime52k8]

Everything insults my intelligence, including anime!

Taksraven

well your intelligence insults my intelligence's insulting of anime's intelligence almost as much as the department of navel intelligence insults my intelligence...

I seem to be running out of pills. no mater

:edit:

and I loved Howls Moving Castle.

Edited May 26, 2009 by anime52k8

[VFTF1]

I disagree with the accusation of lack of originality.

I mean - read over the hundreds of pages of reaction to Macross Frontier on these boards. Then consider that the reactons to each episode and the discussions sparked by each episode COULD NOT POSSIBLY BE WRITTEN ABOUT ANY OTHER MACROSS SERIES.

Now - is it possible to generalize and say A is similar to B? Yes.

But if you're seriously about putting forth an argument that it's not just similar, but also unoriginal and ripped off, then the argument has got to be more intricate. Especially since we're talking about a genre where giant robots and giant boobs are the norm.

Your criticism is, in my view, along the same lines as the following:

"There's really no difference amongst all the world's famous paintings because all of them were made using some form a paint."

Also - I think this kind of discussion sets up a bit of a trap - because it's near all impossible to talk about "everything" - and how are we seriously supposed to defend the uniqueness of NGE or Macross Frontier or other series when we would have to reference EVERYTHING to do so?

So it kind of becomes a bit of a conversation about nothing.

Just to take one snippet:

Come on, the kid with glasses who happens to be a badass flying a BLUE valk? Skull leader happens to be older, have wierd hair and the same looking valk? Alto too. Yeah, there were some differences, but not enough for me. The series was less of a continuation and more of a reboot, and if it was a reboot, it wasn't a very good one.

Yeah, well... The badass kid with glasses flew a RED Valk in the previous Macross series. As for Ozma having "the same looking valk" as Roy Fokker - um... you probably mean the yellow highlights, but that hardly qualifies as the "same looking valk."

Then the argument that it was less of a continuation and more of a reboot makes little sense, particularly when it isn't backed up with an attempt at an argument. It sound like a gutt reaction... which is fine - but it's not enough to get me to think "yeah man, this Macross Frontier thing really insults my intelligence"

Again - I don't find it necessary to demonstrate how it is that Macross Frontier is unique - just go into the TV show thread and dig out the million page conversation threads for each individual episodes.

If it was just a boring rip off reboot people wouldn't have so much to talk about, there wouldn't be so many interesting ideas and reactions flying around....

So - I would put my opinion like this:

I don't mind repetition in anime, I don't think it's possible for certain elements common to the genre not to be there and I don't get the feeling that a bad anime is ever bad because it's a rip off of something - usually the thing just can't stand on its' own merits...

Pete

[taksraven]

Now - is it possible to generalize and say A is similar to B? Yes.

2+2=5

Richard Burton told me so.

Taksraven

[Sulendil Ang]

I don't know... In a certain extent, ALL anime (and ALL story) is predictable, and I like it that way. I mean, I would be shocked if one day I picked up an anime named Macross, and tada, there's no more ridiculous robots or planes, no more annoying girls singing even more annoying songs, and no 'heck-quickly-pick-your-choice-and-get-over-with-it-you-moron' love triangle, and instead replaced by some soap drama. I would toss it into the bin and say: 'You damn cheater! Are you insulting my intelligence?! That's no Macross, damn it, no Macross!'

Besides, I saw even more real people doing more things that really insults my intelligence than most anime did.

Edited May 26, 2009 by Sulendil Ang

[Bri]

[...]

I guess the point is don't we, as consumers who pump millions of dollars into this genre via movies, toys, models, etc. have a right to demand something refreshing other than "howl's moving castle"? I just don't see the same refreshing storytelling I used to find. I'm so sick of teenage angst piloting mecha. It's just become so formulaic...If anyone's got any newer anime's they can recommend other than Bleach and Death Note, I'm open to suggestions.

Well there are loads of great anime made, even recently but everything depends on what you like. Things like Mushi-shi, Infinite Ryvius, Dennou Coil, Planetes just to name a few are quite different from the teenage pilot in mecha series.

[sketchley]

OK, this is going to be one of those "If it wasn't for Gundam you wouldn't have Macross" topics, but really.

(snip)

Funny... the title has nothing to do with the content of the first post.

I just don't see the same refreshing storytelling I used to find. I'm so sick of teenage angst piloting mecha. It's just become so formulaic...If anyone's got any newer anime's they can recommend other than Bleach and Death Note, I'm open to suggestions.

Have you tried anything other than mecha anime? Like... another genre of anime?

Tried Grave of the Fireflies?

The other thing you have to consider is - you're getting old. Now you're moving into the phase of life where you want well written stories and logical characters. Sadly, even with live action movies, that's few and far between. I recommend the classics (by this, I mean the ones that your parent's refer to as classics). They're classic for a reason. You can also see where others have copied.

Eg: Evangelion is not a rip-off of Gundam. It's a rip off of Giant Robo/Mazinger (and similar shows), combined with Nausicaa.

[miles316]

Any Scifi original movie on Syfi (scifi) chan. Some one should start a petition drive to make the scifi channel higher some one to Verify Scifi movies scientific claims before the Syfi (scifi)chan allows them to film movies for Syfi.

[Repiv_Onex]

Macross DOES borrow elements from Gundam. It does, no doubt about it. No big deal, I like them both, so bonus for me. Then Mospeada borrows from Macross. Then Patlabor borrows, then Evangelion borrows, then Code Geass borrows, then Gundam borrows from one of it's offspring. It's commonplace, and up until recently it didn't bother me. However, one thing does bother me:

First, no offense on my posting.

All horror films more or less "borrow" the ideas of other horror films, all comedy shows more or less "borrow" the ideas of other comedy shows, and the list goes on. And all First Person Shooter games are the same, u use weapons to kill the enemies. Unless u want something like the next Macross sequel being a Horror film and FPS games that uses jokes to please your friends. I don't feel my int is insulted because of un-originality.

[shiroikaze]

Tried Grave of the Fireflies?

Let's not ever, EVER, bring up that movie again...

I guess the point is don't we, as consumers who pump millions of dollars into this genre via movies, toys, models, etc. have a right to demand something refreshing other than "howl's moving castle"? I just don't see the same refreshing storytelling I used to find. I'm so sick of teenage angst piloting mecha. It's just become so formulaic...If anyone's got any newer anime's they can recommend other than Bleach and Death Note, I'm open to suggestions.

There's nothing wrong with "borrowing" from other stories. Essentially as someone else pointed out, all stories are practically the same. I like to add to that: Even if it's the same story over and over again, it's how you get to the end of the story is what pretty much matters.

Also, here's an anime that I (and many others) like to recommend: The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya,

and oh why not, let's toss in Kara no Kyoukai as well.

[Ghost Train]

In addition to 9 kilotons of Moe.... also steals from "European History":

Flying pigs, co-ed armies... my tank is fight.

[Mr March]

Anime is like film, is like music, is like literature, is like any consumer product. Product is produced for the sake of producing. Even when there isn't a story worth telling, we get a story anyway and it's sold to us as if it's something worth buying even when it's not. That is consumer culture, buying crap we don't need

Which is, ironically, why I prefer Macross to most other mecha anime; Kawamori pretty much only produces a Macross show when he thinks he has a Macross story worth telling. Big West pimps Macross for all it's worth when they DO produce a show (like any business would), but the franchise is not some homogenized cash cow pumping out worthless fare regularly to sustain Big West's quarterlies. Fans can debate the worth of each Macross production, but the franchise creators at least try producing something distinct each time.

So does anime insult my intelligence? Not because it's a consumer entertainment product mostly aimed at 10-20 year olds. Is most anime uninspiring and uninteresting to me? Sure. In fact, so is most everything. It's why I dislike pop music, don't watch television and others would describe me as a film snob (LOL!). It's part of living that one naturally becomes more particular as time goes on.

If I had to read between the lines of your post, I'd say you're on the cusp of realizing that you must prioritize the disposable entertainment you purchase with your disposable income. This is a good thing, but keep in mind you don't have to disown anime entirely. There are many of us that watch all kinds of different entertainment and you might be surprised who you are among here at MW. There is a lot more sophisticated entertainment out there if you just look for it and expose yourself to it. For years I've been going on about the virtues of The Wire, quite possibly the best television series ever made. But MW typically isn't a community that's interested in the show and those of us that are sadly don't have a venue for discussing it here, so I only mention the series in passing.

I'd say take a good look at what your needs are and venture outside your comfort zone a bit. I guarantee you'll be happy with what you'll find. But remember, you can enjoy some anime for what it is. Don't become angry and bitter at anime because you're too intelligent and mature for it. As an adult, Macross Frontier can be enjoyed every bit as much as The Incredibles. However, an adult cannot subsist on anime, sci-fi and action movies alone. For that matter, an adult cannot subsist upon disposable entertainment alone, no matter how intelligent and sophisticated. You might find it's time to vary your habits, perhaps some good advice we all could stand to consider in varying degrees

[Vostok 7]

Anime is like film, is like music, is like literature, is like any consumer product. Product is produced for the sake of producing. Even when there isn't a story worth telling, we get a story anyway and it's sold to us as if it's something worth buying even when it's not. That is consumer culture, buying crap we don't need

Which is, ironically, why I prefer Macross to most other mecha anime; Kawamori pretty much only produces a Macross show when he thinks he has a Macross story worth telling. Big West pimps Macross for all it's worth when they DO produce a show (like any business would), but the franchise is not some homogenized cash cow pumping out worthless fare regularly to sustain Big West's quarterlies. Fans can debate the worth of each Macross production, but the franchise creators at least try producing something distinct each time.

So does anime insult my intelligence? Not because it's a consumer entertainment product mostly aimed at 10-20 year olds. Is most anime uninspiring and uninteresting to me? Sure. In fact, so is most everything. It's why I dislike pop music, don't watch television and others would describe me as a film snob (LOL!). It's part of living that one naturally becomes more particular as time goes on.

If I had to read between the lines of your post, I'd say you're on the cusp of realizing that you must prioritize the disposable entertainment you purchase with your disposable income. This is a good thing, but keep in mind you don't have to disown anime entirely. There are many of us that watch all kinds of different entertainment and you might be surprised who you are among here at MW. There is a lot more sophisticated entertainment out there if you just look for it and expose yourself to it. For years I've been going on about the virtues of The Wire, quite possibly the best television series ever made. But MW typically isn't a community that's interested in the show and those of us that are sadly don't have a venue for discussing it here, so I only mention the series in passing.

I'd say take a good look at what your needs are and venture outside your comfort zone a bit. I guarantee you'll be happy with what you'll find. But remember, you can enjoy some anime for what it is. Don't become angry and bitter at anime because you're too intelligent and mature for it. As an adult, Macross Frontier can be enjoyed every bit as much as The Incredibles. However, an adult cannot subsist on anime, sci-fi and action movies alone. For that matter, an adult cannot subsist upon disposable entertainment alone, no matter how intelligent and sophisticated. You might find it's time to vary your habits, perhaps some good advice we all could stand to consider in varying degrees

Yeah, it's pretty much like listening to Pop music or non-Pixar Disney movies and then complaining that it insults your intelligence. Of course it does, it's written and performed for the lowest common denominator.

Not that Macross is as stupid and insipid as Pop music or a non-Pixar Disney movie, but certainly something like any AC Gundam...

Vostok 7

[Noyhauser]

I heard Miyazaki recently said that he's resigned to the fact he's pouring in clear pure water into the cesspool that anime has become; I think he's right. Most series I watch just seem to be retreads of prior series themes, if not wholesale copies.

Macross Frontier is a good example of the former... it retreads all the ground of SDF but without the depth of its predecessor. And just because alot of people pick apart the minutia of a series VFTF1, doesn't mean its very deep... in the case of Macross Frontier it gave the impression it was deep, but in the end proved to be exceedingly shallow and inbred in its story.

There are a few exceptions. Flag, Planetaes, Sky Crawlers, and Gits SAC are a few, but overall Anime just seems to be regressing. I mean look at the explosion of series in the 1980s and the adventurous spirit behind them. They attempted to push the boundaries of storytelling in new directions without falling into old cliches or reliance purely on mecha or action porn.

Edited May 26, 2009 by Noyhauser

[Bri]

Sometimes things change...

[VF5SS]

oh noes the disposable entertainment designed to sell merchandise isn't deep enough

[F-ZeroOne]

Evangelion: This was a glorified, artsy fartsy rip off of Gundam. Obviously.

Actually, I think Evangelion took its inspiration from something else - heres an extract from a review I did of the series I'm thinking of; can you tell what it is yet?

Guess the anime title! Here are your clues:

This anime features mecha piloted by youngsters who barely

understand what they're doing, and which are protected from harm by an

intensely powerful force field generated by the human will.

In the same anime you find quasi-religious overtones which involve

the appearance of a entity so powerful, it is both a harbinger of life

and death and an unstoppable manifestation of the human psyche.

In this anime, you will see the decapitation of a character who

appears in only a couple of episodes but who nonetheless makes a

powerful emotional mark on the lead protagonist.

This anime has an inconclusive ending, caused by outside

pressure; it is open to multiple interpretations, and a definite "true"

finish appears in the film spin-off.

Guessed which title I'm talking about yet? Well, lets see if you're

right - the answer on the card is...

...Space Runaway Ideon.

Edited May 26, 2009 by F-ZeroOne

[Einherjar]

All those flaws and stuff can be found in every form of media ever made.

[shiroikaze]

Sometimes things change...

But Azumanga Daioh! was great! It can't be just for adults

....and so's Lucky Star.

Edited May 26, 2009 by shiroikaze

[anime52k8]

oh noes the disposable entertainment designed to sell merchandise isn't deep enough

oh noes entertaining media doesn't have to skull f*ck me with it's overwhelming intelligence in order to be fun. whatever shall we do?!? [/sarcasm]

really though, I don't understand why there's an expectation that any given piece of media has to be the height of intellectual depth and philosophical significance at all times to be good.

I like shallow media, it's more fun. If I wanted to deal with complex moral dilemmas and serious subject matter I'd go out and deal with the clusterf*ck that is my life.

I think everyone would be better off if they rented one of those giant inflatable hamster balls and rolled down a hill in it. there's nothing better to remind you that simple inconsequential stimulation is the best kind of fun there is.

2+2=5

Richard Burton told me so.

Taksraven

(1) let x = 2+2

(2)[multiply by x-1] x(x-1)=(2+2)(x-1)

(3) x^2 -x = 2x+2x-2-2

(4)[subtract 3x] x^2-4x=x-4

(5)[multiply by x-5] (x-5)(x^2-4x)=(x-5)(x-4)

(6)x^3-9x^2+20x=x^2-9x+20

(7)x(x-4)(x-5)=(x-4)(x-5)

([divide by x-4] x^2-5x=x-5

(9)[add 4x] x^2-x=5x-5

(10)x(x-1)=5(x-1)

(11)[divide by (x-1)] x=5

Q.E.D. BITCHES

[Noyhauser]

oh noes the disposable entertainment designed to sell merchandise isn't deep enough

It doesn't mean all said entertainment medium has to be as superficial and pointless as your post.

[VF5SS]

Yeah but not everything can be LoGH.

[Noyhauser]

Everything doesn't have to rely on cliched love triangles, harems fantasies and superpowered mecha designed to sell merchandise either.

Given the fact you guys have reviewed almost every piece of Mamuro Oshii Filmography for your podcast (and made some excellent points about it), I think you'd understand.

[VF5SS]

I did two Oshii shows. Dallos was awful and Patlabor 2 was dull. Besides, Oshii is so full of his own tropes he can't go two minutes without a goddamn basset giving him a hummer.

[Noyhauser]

Heh... True, but he still tries to examine different themes with his work (with admittedly boring pacing and cinematography.) Most anime couldn't give a damn about that, or even basic elements such a plot and character designs.

All I'm saying is that the number of intelligent and innovative anime seems to be much diminished compared to their heyday in the 1980s and early 90s. There were sh*tty infantile ones back then too, but it seems there are a greater proportion of them now.

[anime52k8]

All I'm saying is that the number of intelligent and innovative anime seems to be much diminished compared to their heyday in the 1980s and early 90s. There were sh*tty infantile ones back then too, but it seems there are a greater proportion of them now.

it's a combination of nostalgia making you believe that stuff you watched way back when was less crap than it really was, and the fact that it's been 20-30 years and everyone's forgotten that there has always been just as much mediocre poo as there is now.

in 20 years, all the people in their late teens and early 20's today are going to making the exact same statement you are now, substituting late 90's and 2000's for 1980's and early 90's of course.

[shiroikaze]

Heh... True, but he still tries to examine different themes with his work (with admittedly boring pacing and cinematography.) Most anime couldn't give a damn about that, or even basic elements such a plot and character designs.

All I'm saying is that the number of intelligent and innovative anime seems to be much diminished compared to their heyday in the 1980s and early 90s. There were sh*tty infantile ones back then too, but it seems there are a greater proportion of them now.

I can see where you're coming from and I do agree a bit but I think you're generalizing a bit too much. Yes, there are alot of pretty bland anime out there. Yes, not all anime are intelligent or has a specific theme to them. Alot of anime do have plot, just not always up there with the better stuff. Practically most of the anime out there do have decent character designs at least...

Anime (or anything else) don't exactly have to be intelligent or have a theme to be enjoyable really... Honestly, I want to know what anime have you seen from within this decade that made you come to this conclusion?

Edited May 26, 2009 by shiroikaze

[Noyhauser]

it's a combination of nostalgia making you believe that stuff you watched way back when was less crap than it really was, and the fact that it's been 20-30 years and everyone's forgotten that there has always been just as much mediocre poo as there is now.

in 20 years, all the people in their late teens and early 20's today are going to making the exact same statement you are now, substituting late 90's and 2000's for 1980's and early 90's of course.

I've heard that argument and I don't buy it, particularly since my interest in 1980s anime is more recent than my childhood memories. There are a whole range of reasons for the difference; the novelty of anime in this period (leading to greater experimentation) as well as the large wealth of japan. With a diminished economy there isn't the same demand, and production companies rely to a greater extent on formulas they know will sell.

All film industries go through this: I'm sure many french critics in the 1980s lamented how French cinema didn't match the artistic heights of the 1950s and 60s new wave. That doesn't mean New Wave wasn't a breakthrough in film making, just like the innovation of 1980s anime was greater than seen since.

[wolfx]

I mean look at the explosion of series in the 1980s and the adventurous spirit behind them. They attempted to push the boundaries of storytelling in new directions without falling into old cliches or reliance purely on mecha or action porn.

And how many of those studios survived the test of time till today?

Studio Sunrise is a given but that's mostly because of Gundam, not their other more adventurous stuff.

Its sad but true that moe and sex sells. Creativity doesn't most of the time. Same thing is happening to the video game industry.